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Lets Put an End to This - Thieves Are Not Important

Discussion in 'UO Factions' started by JC the Builder, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Every time faction discussion takes place, it seems there is a very vocal group exclaiming how vital thieves are. This appears to have caught the developer's attention, as is evident in the recent faction changes appearing on Test Center. The problem is that it isn't true. Stealing was never anything more than a means to an end.

    A game mechanic had to be put in place to move town sigils around. So a bunch of suggestions were tossed out.

    Dev 1 - "Why don't we have player's double-click them and target themselves"
    Dev 2 - "Well what stops someone from just constantly going and taking a sigil"
    Dev 1 - "What if we made moving a sigil require a skill. When a player is in skill loss they can't move it"
    Dev 3 - "What skill should we use? Maybe Forensic Evaluation. That skill is underused."
    Dev 1 - "That doesn't make any sense from a game play perspective. We'll use Stealing"

    That is it. No "we need to make thieves the linchpin of Factions" or "how do we throw thieves a bone". Keep in mind, Factions was made well before it became evident thieves were dead due to Trammel.

    They tied it to Stealing (and only stealing, not Stealing and Stealthing) because movement needed to be tied to a skill. Thus, killing another player prevented them from stealing sigils.

    Everyone understood this up until the past few years. I think one factor that started this whole thieving movement was stealing jewelry. No longer does stat loss prevent you from getting at sigils. Another being that instead of fighting, factions is mostly about sigil hide and seek. Thieves are running sigils solo a lot of times, so they feel they are contributing a lot. But in reality they are just doing it for themselves. If no one is doing fighting then Factions is not active. It doesn't matter how many times per day a sigil ping pongs between bases by 2-3 stealthers.

    Many players added stealing to their character just so they could move a sigil. I was one of those people. I had a mage with 80 Stealing. When we managed to bust into a base, I went to the poll and started passing them out. No hiding and stealing and sneaking.

    I'm not saying stealthers were completely useless. They were very good when you could sneak by base defenses and grab an important sigil. It was fun to try that. But it was by no means the main focus on Factions. Faction is purely about big battles against other groups to control towns. It isn't about thieving or crafting or killing monsters. It is about winning and killing other players.

    If the developers want to incorporate thieves as part of factions, by all means. But don't ruin it for everyone else who is here to fight. And clearly the fighters are upset at how changes are being made.
     
  2. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Well I disagree about the thieves. They are a great way to incorporate that skill and stealthers to the factions. Stealing and stealthing isnt the problem. Animal form and smoke bombs are what makes that stuff ********.

    Put,, you are right, the ends do justify the means.. giving points for stealing sigs and/or resetting isnt a bad thing as long as the points are not ridiculous.. like they are currently on the main shards and like they are currently on the faction shard. There is no if ands or buts about it.. the point system now and on Faction TC are terrible..

    It is also the same case for healing, stealthing, and detecting. If you dont heal, you will die, your guild will die, you will lose.. THAT is the incentive to heal.

    Stealthing gives you an edge in almost every fight. Surprise.. It takes up skill points, thus making your character weaker over all, but you get the jump on people and that is the incentive you get from stealth..

    Detecting stealthers allows you to defend agains stealther archers and thieves from stealing the sigs. With out it, it is a lot harder to defend a base. THAT IS THE PURPOSE...

    You don't need points for that ****.

    If you want to keep track of how much ppl heal and how much ppl stealth.. go ahead and have those leader boards but don't base the whole system of that ****. Its dumb.

    but Thieves.. very important, and a great alternative play style in a pvp system..
     
  3. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    not everyone wants to play a balls out punch you in the face.

    some people like their pvp to be stealthy and sneaky.

    some people like to steal.

    i disagree that stealing was an afterthought when it was added to factions.
    i think it was clearlly put in and rightfully so.

    i for one love to play my faction thief.
    and i dont play a hybred thief tamer mage ect ect ect.
    my faction thiefs are pure thieves.

    the only way they are gonna kill ya is if you cant sure a shurken.

    some night i dont want to get into the big toe to toe fights.
    some nights the stratigy and stealthing of a thief is my alure to factions.

    and i know there are a LOT of people out there who feel the same.

    be it either slow connections or that they just dont want or know how to fight, or they just wanna play a thief that night.

    why should we kill of stealing and remove that fun and those players?

    the benifits of that dont outway the perks.... if there are any perks.
     
  4. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    There are some days I just feel like jumping on and running around with the sigs. Having ppl chase me and try and stay alive as long as possible. It's hard to be good as a thief but its not hard to have fun on a thief.. its a great way to get people less accustomed to pvp into pvp.
     
  5. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    A lot of people just want to fight. There is no need to change Factions so it ruins it for the rest of us.
     
  6. Chap

    Chap Babbling Loonie
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    I disagree with the removal of faction thieves.

    Stealing sigils adds another dimension to factions, it attract people to be a part of factions. Take a look at all the thieves running around in the new abyss dungeon, theres definately a market for thieves. If some of those thieves can join faction and be a part of fel community its just great, and more people to kill for those who like killing.

    I think the stealing sigil propeties need to be adjusted though, the requirement of 80 stealing was made at a time there were no PS and items. I dont think its right that a thief in stattloss can steal a sigil.

    On europa we had people who dedicated their life to stealing sigils. These were maybe one of the easiest kills in PvP, but they sure knew how to steal sigils from a protected faction HQ.

    It also adds another dimension to raids, it require more planning, if you dont have a thief in the raidparty the raid already failed before it began. I think involvement of different proffessions in faction is a benefit to faction and fel communities.

    On the other side, Im a PvPer, and thats what I do. I like duels and PvP tactics.
     
  7. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Factions have never been ruined by stealth or stealing until ninja was introduced.. even then the only things that need to be tweaked is animal form and smoke bombs..

    Stop exaggerating ****...
     
  8. Nonel

    Nonel Sage
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    It does matter that thieves move the sigils around during the day, and you'd be nuts to think otherwise. Without someone actually refreshing the things they would just corrupt by morning, thus nobody working them that evening during prime hours, and thus faction activity takes a fall.

    You like fighting...good. If anything the new bases have opened factions up to pure running around hacking-and-slashing PvP. Tactical defenses will be harder than ever, and unfortunately thieves will move in and out at will.

    But as far as most of us thieves thinking we need a bone thrown...that is just utter BS. Many of us vocal faction thieves spoke out against kill points for thieves. We've spoken out against the current sigil/stealth points. And we've spoken out against the ridiculously thief-friendly bases they designed.

    I want more for thieves...but not faction wise. I feel slapped in the face every time they add more deco and arties for Trammie crate thieves to steal. Oh how I just wish we could steal containers, again, and heavier stacks of items (since so many of you jokers run around with 40+ apples and pots per stack).

    As far as thieves not being important...well...I'd like to see any other template besides a thief ruin a well organized base defense whilst solo.

    Edit: I didnt properly read Chap's post before my reply. I totally agree with him about the sig stealing parameters...it's something we've discussed a lot in my guild in the past. That is, the skill requirement should be based off real skill and you should not be allowed to steal in stat.
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Sad, JC.

    Factions has been in existence how long now?

    And thieves have been critical for it since....The start, as I recall.

    It's not really anyone's fault but your own that you are just noticing.

    Exactly the same post could be written regardless of how the cities are to be controlled. All game mechanics have an arbitrary element by definition. Why? Because it is a game and the rules of any given game are going to be arbitrary, because they only have to make sense within the game's framework. And, sorry JC, but that framework doesn't match entirely the visions in your head. Any game mechanic for stealing sigils, or for doing anything, would be as arbitrary, even if it did match the vision in your head.

    Usually, posts like this are written in the wake of being unable to catch a thief of an opposing Faction. Ergo suddenly the whole system is unfair and an outcry begins. On GL this happens a lot, as TB has the best thieves and the hard-core PvPers feel it is their birthright to kill everyone they come across, forgetting that Felucca is supposed to be competitive.

    If they change it to something else I'll be sure to duplicate your post to the letter and see how you respond.

    -Galen's player
     
  10. tink'r_toiz

    tink'r_toiz Journeyman
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    Nonel already responded to this. Without solo thieves keeping the sigs in play during "off PVP" hours, there would be no sigs in play to fight over. Pure and simple.
    If thieves in factions are not necessary why did you even bother to steal the sigils?
    Like it or not the true measure of winning in factions is control of the towns. PVPers get a very narrow mindset and forget that. Without refreshing the sigs to buy time for the PVPers to get online, etc., anyone who bothered to run them in base and leave them sit for 10 hours "wins".
    But you would ruin it for those of us who have, with dedication, played pure thieves for years in factions in order to give PVPers more and better? Factions is a team, combined effort. It is singleminded thinking that will kill factions. Faction is NOT just PVP, factions in NOT just stealing and sig running. The thieves provide the reason for the PVPers to fight. To either protect the control of the towns or to secure the control of the towns. If the sigs are not in play because no one wanted to bother to refresh them or run them or there weren't any pvpers on to raid a base then your fighting goes back to Yew gate and you don't need to be in factions ... except to avoid murder counts.... and to have the arties. Seriously, if all you want is fighting, just war other guilds. You don't have to be in factions to PVP ...
     
  11. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Well this is one of the dumbest things I've seen stated yet. There simply isn't always enough people on to raid to refresh sigils with your awesome 80 stealing on your mage. I know this as well as anyone.
     
  12. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What an elitist statement... *shakes head*
     
  13. Damn, thats the dumbest comment i've seen on these boards :(

    Cant count the number of times theres been a raid and everyone who was defending has died and the raiders stand there like wtf we do now? we all res up and defend the sigils till corruption! Now because thieves are getting a bit of attention theres people complaining? After every warrior, mage or archer gets there artis? I say congrats to the devs for giving thieves well deserved attention :)
     
  14. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    hahahaha

    i mainly only play to pvp but even i know the thieves in factions are what keeps it moving.

    and i even like to dabble with my thief from time to time o.0
     
  15. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    This is what someone said trying to defend thieves in Factions.

    There you have it, Factions main issue is that it focuses on PVP.


    I would like to add that using the Stealing skill on sigils is not thievery. Real thieves get offended when people bring up stealing from crates and Doom artifacts. So much so they had to separate them into 2 forums on Stratics. Stealing a sigil is no different than stealing from a crate.
     
  16. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    ...and there you, sir, have it. Its time for a more involved, more inclusive, more engaging, more rewarding system. Because sometimes three dimensions, really is more life like.
     
  17. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    I know right. You should ban him. Hes obviously trolling..
     
  18. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Someone once told me quoting 'someone' means jack **** unless they are credible and accurately quoted... Who is this someone? A credible faction player or another trammy? God argument..
     
  19. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Since you asked I'm going to link it.

    http://www.hot-guild.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=266298#p266298

    She has been playing in Factions for a long time and also used to be in our guild. She is definitely not a "Trammy". But she thinks stealthing and stealing sigils are an important factor in Factions. While the dozen plus other people in the topic think otherwise.

    Also, someone in the main discussion topic compared Factions to capture the flag. I think that analogy fits. This isn't "stealth around and hide" the flag.
     
  20. OMG ever played a faction thief?
     
  21. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    its a mind set.

    some people are just about the hitting.

    some people are about the tactics.

    i dont hate JC cause he's a hitter.
    i just dont like him cause he hates the tactic people.

    :)


    if you compare factions to capture the flag that is a very simplistic 'hitter' way of giving it a rude overview.

    while it is 'capture the flag LIKE' its more then that.
    its defending your way of life.
    its protecting the world from evil (if your TB or COM) or spreading your filth and blood (if your MX or SL)

    if the theives where gone from the picture what you hate about thieving would be compounded.
    why?
    cause if all ya had to do was walk up and dd click the sig to take it then the sigs would be in canstant motion.
    they would be off the pedistals 99% of the time and lets face it, if the theives doen have them, then its gonna be the dog archers that have them.

    so either way your gonna be chasing people.

    you should feel lucky.
    at least most faction thieves are pureists and cant fight back.
    so you can at least kill them easilly.
     
  22. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I got a second account solely to have a stealthing faction thief.

    He even had tinkering. A cookie to anyone who knows the reason why that is. And it wasn't for crafting faction traps.
     
  23. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Candleabras...
     
  24. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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  25. Then how can you say thieves are useless? or stealing a sig is like stealing from a crate?

    Maybe you have never had situations where you have to sneak in on your thief around a defense of about 20 people? Ask most people in TB on GL how long they spend chasing a "good" thief, imo it gets the blood pumping better than actual pvp'ing :)
     
  26. I remember a thief having tinkering a while back but cant think of why he had it :thumbup1:
     
  27. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Hmmm..

    She never says 'thats the problem with how the factions are right now'. Why are you quoting that?... she said "Factions is all about PvP".

    I guess I can understand her opinion but to say thieves are no longer useful is pretty stupid.. My thief is more useful than my pvper half of the time..

    I want the sigs.. My thief is useful for that.

    What she was right about was holding the towns for a long period of time is pretty useless. I'm not sure why you are mixing her words up to make her look stupid.. She stated 2 very different things in 2 different posts.
    1. Factions are about pvp = true.
    2 Thieves are useless = false.

    What she ment was, There is no point for HER to have a thief because SHE doesn't want to hold the towns for no reason.

    The game in general took a huge hit when it became item based. You could pick any part of the game and say it is worse because of it.. So why you single out thieves I don't know.. It's pretty clear they are useful to steal the sigs.. just holding the sigs is useless.


    and I really can't believe you said that. Thieves were never really important. LOL.. what a joke.
     
  28. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Thieves have no effect on who owns towns. The faction with the strongest fighting force is who holds them. If someone actually defends, a thief isn't able to do anything.
     
  29. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    JC must be a lousy quarterback. He gives no credit to his grunt players. I would never last in his guild.
     
  30. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    If we are comparing Factions to Football, what position does the thief play?

    You were the one who made the comparison.
     
  31. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    OMG..dude.. you haven't played Nonel, Perma or Rilo.. Seriously, I know where you going and its inaccurate. If the fighting force has no thief.. they cant take sigs... Go ahead and say, they have 20 skill and get 60 more from items. Blah Blah Blah.. Then the problem is the items not the thieves.. You need to learn how to identify the issues.. You 1 up yourself yet again..

    God you are so..... you...
     
  32. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Yeah, you should ban him for being a lousy quarterback. He probably throws like a girl irl too. You should double ban him for that.

    Thats just imho..
     
  33. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Running back and/or kicker. They get the W. The pvpers just block.
     
  34. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    As I already mentioned, I put 80 Stealing on my mage to grab sigils. I certainly did not consider myself a thief. Usually we brought in someone to steal sigils after the battle was over. Or someone used a second character.

    At no time did we have someone running a stealthing thief as a primary character. That is just a waste of potential fighting power.

    Anyone can run a sigil. There is no place for a "thief" type on a Football team. There is no hiding in Football.
     
  35. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    80 Stealing makes you a thief.. If you consider yourself more of a pvper great.. You're a hybrid.. Thieves have templates just like Mages or Dexers do. Some thieves are geared more toward survival, some toward raw stealth, some toward combat and some toward utility... Thats the beauty of UO.. You can make your own templates.

    And just because you haven't ran into a godly thief doesn't mean there aren't any out there. I met some people who only have a thief character and play it better than most pvpers. They may not get many kills but they rarely die.. and sometimes thats just as fun.

    No room for thieves in football? WTF do you think an interception is?

    And yes anyone can run a sig, but only thieves can steal them..
     
  36. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Moving sigils around is not thievery. It is the mechanic used to take them off pedestals. You don't gain anything by doing it, which is the definition of being a thief. You are just a person moving sigils around. Shouting from the hill tops that it makes you a thief is an insult to actual thieves.
     
  37. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    we wouldn't want to offend thieves..

    and here you are trying to apply logic to a fantasy MMOs in game mechanics.. Seriously dude.. its a way to get another type of game play incorporated with the factions.. and it actually worked really good. It's an extremely fun part of the factions to play. Sorry you don't enjoy it...

    but your beef isn't with thieves is it? You're beef is with people animal forming away and using smoke bombs.. not trying to kill you so you have a hard time fighting/killing them. I understand it bothers you, and it bothers me too.. animal form and smoke bombs are way OP.. but thieves are fine..

    I know you are you and you can't help it,, but try not to be LIKE you.. that just embarrassing.. just stop..
     
  38. Cadderly

    Cadderly Journeyman
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    Thieves steal right? Take away something that somebody else didn't want taken. Some little ******* walks into my home base and takes away what I have been guarding for hours is stealing! What greater honor for a thief is there but from stealing something from not just one person but multiple determined players to keep what they have.



    Can some what understand what you are coming from though.

    If nobody is defending... well they just moving sigils around. Wouldn't bother me one bit if any faction player could move sigils from the city stone and take it to a base. Once inside a base not just any joe blow stealther should be able to remove it.
     
  39. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I would not be against even raising the stealing skill required to steal them, not that it would matter much considering no matter how much skill you lose you can always find enough items to get back up. Also add on top of that that it should require real skill to steal those sigils.....well that was not 100% on topic, but I think it relevant.
     
  40. Nonel

    Nonel Sage
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    That is just bull****. I have made it in and out of defenses that modern factioners can only dream to organize. As for the strongest fighting force...I don't think I could count how many times we've successfully corrupted the sigs for TB on GL against much larger odds.
     
  41. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    A larger force does not mean a stronger force.
     
  42. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Hes made it in and out of strong forces as well..
     
  43. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    It should have been 120 a long time ago anyway.. And Yeah.. it should be real skill..
     
  44. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I got no issues with it being real skill.
     
  45. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    How about this, when Factions shard comes back up we'll have a little game. I'll get together some people and guard some sigils. Whoever wants to try and sneak in and steal them for about an hour can try. You win if you get 2 or more sigils out.

    Just need to set a day and time.
     
  46. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    OK. The opposing team can bring warriors, mages and tamers?
     
  47. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    That wouldn't be very sneaky.
     
  48. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Faction thieves know they are not a stand alone faction template. They are a part of a team. Whether it is merely flipping the sigs or stealing them during an all out attack... we are a part of the team.

    But OK... we will see how this plays out. As long as it is tested.
     
  49. Lore Denin (GL)

    Stratics Veteran

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    I think that is an interesting challenge to the GL thieves...

    Though there are two initial issues that jump out with running a challenge on test shard....

    1) Test shard allows people to set detect hidden and tracking by lowering other skills. Using this "exploit" would hinder the true effectiveness of a skilled thief like Tinkz, Papa, Balor, Grace, Talos, Poo and Nonel just name a few....

    2) Bases are huge; thieves that log inside will be a huge problem.

    If the defenders to not change skills to track and detect hidden and thieves agree to work their way past defenses, then I think this would be an interesting challenge. Advantage thieves.

    This is not to say they can not ever be stopped; they can be. Factions would be completely broken if they couldn't be. However, it takes a well organized, skilled and diverse group to effectively prevent this particular group from stealing and refreshing sigils. They are used to working in bases much easier to defend then the ones we are talking about.

    I have been looking at the bases and thinking of defense strategies and have a few I'd like to test against thieves, fighting forces and what you find on GL a combo of both (don't discount the wild card factors in the mix from other factions creating diversions and using thieves of their own (shout outs to Meridoc, Annie, Bo Hunter, Diligaf, Regis).

    Tinkering on your thief?? Were you a Grandmaster Golem healer?

    -Lore
     
  50. Arabella

    Arabella Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    LOL I am in!