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Lets take a look at Skill Gains in Game...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by jfkeach, Sep 29, 2009.

  1. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    First, I think that the goals set out by the dev team when they looked at GGS were admirable. Here they are as a reference point for the rest of this post.

    Desired elements for UO skill gain system
    Gains through "normal" game play
    Support for some power gaming
    Reasonably long total time investment to "max" a character
    Actions performed to gain skill must be reasonably achievable at the player's current skill level


    I think that this system works with a few exceptions. The promise of Gains through "Normal" game play, is one that for the most part, works, but for certain skills, is sorely broken. Primarily Tamers and Bards have to powergame to work these skills to be effective in the field.

    We have had blackrock events where we could train skills like mad, and yes, SoT's, Scrolls of Alacrity, Jewels, Power Scrolls, and soul stones have done a lot to help players become effective in their chosen proffession.

    Taming, well, we all know its a beast to train. For the most part, the Ranger is a hunter, using beasts in battle to fight the peerless, Mobs, and higher level monsters. That is our profession. Not TAMING per say for the most part. How many players do nothing but tame beasts for library contributions or to sell to other players? Very few tamers do that as a profession. So the goal for a tamer is to tame and control a beast in battle. (For the most part)

    I have several tamers. (4 accounts) All can jewel up to 120 taming. To me, the promise to gain through normal game play for tamers is a broken one. I left the game for 14 months, and distinctly remember the promise being made by a dev team member that they were looking at ways for a tamer to gain skill in taming through not only actively taming a pet, but by controlling their pets. I have been back for over a year, and that promise is still like a whisper in the wind. My main char, the one I play most, is a Chiv Pally Archer Tamer. One of the first on atlantic 4 years ago. King Sidhe. If you do spawns, you know of him and have seen him.

    He is over 2 years old. His Taming is just now getting over GM and that is because i have been buying SoT's for a bunch of gold. 30 mil for a 3.0 SoT. I have spent countless hours taming for skill gain, and used animals that were in his skill range. Im sick of taming for gain. Sick of it in the worse way. Yes, he is jewelled up to 120 taming, and he is naturally 120 Lore, Vet, Med, Chiv, Archery. Yes, I have spent several hundreds of millions of gold to build this char for the scrolls, jewels, and armor. Yes, he can do any of the spawns, and any of the peerless. But can he gain skill through normal gain play? NO!!!

    Ok, lets talk about bards. Whew.

    I started playing on PAC when i lived out west. Pied Piper was a 7xGM Provo Bard before AOS. That was tough. But with the hacks that came in, bards were nerfed to the point, I quit playing them a long time ago.

    However, I find a need now to have a Disco and a provo bard. So here I am training these skills on two chars. I am sitting for hours on end, training disco to get to the point I can use this char in champ spawns and peerless, and I tell you, I would rather have all of my teeth pulled with no painkillers than do this. I get my tamer to go get a bunch of animals that are appropriate for my skill level. I discord each of them, then invis, and start over. Rinse and repeat for hours and hours on end. I gain slowly but surely, just to get to GM it will take me about 2 weeks of hours a day doing this. Ill have to jewel up to 120 so I can start PLAYING again.

    The whole purpose of this post, is I think that the DEV TEAM REALLY needs to look at the skill gain vs normal game play. We should not have to POWERGAME skill training to be effective. I am retired, I have the time to do this, and I do. I hate it, but I do it. I have the resources Most players don't have. If i didnt, I would not be playing this game for as long as I have. If you want to lure newer players into the game, make it possible for them to gain skill by playing the game, not training for hours and hours on end, day after day.

    I can Max out a warrior, mage, even a mule in no time at all. I can have 7xgm mage in 2-3 days. Going legendary takes a little longer, but only by a day or two. A warrior I can make Maxed out in less than a week. Why does it take YEARS to max out my tamer?
     
  2. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    um, because tamers are incredibly over-powered... therefore you get to work for that power?
     
  3. Vhyle

    Vhyle Guest

    How in the hell can you have a 7xGM mage in 2 days? If I was a 16-year-old dropout living at home, with no job, I could 7xGM a mage in probably a week. But two days? Come on.
     
  4. I don't really agree with you, and don't think every skill should be on par for training difficulty. Taming is a powerful skill; this and any skill with as much power should be difficult. Try training discord.

    Still, you aren't working as hard at taming skill gains as what you claim, else you are taming the wrong things. I got to 110 skill in about a month of taming, and then another month for 120 (but just jeweled up to 120 from 110 and enjoyed the benefits while I was gaining). And a tamer can be quite powerful at a much lower level that Legendary, such as having a five-pack of frenzied ostards. These can often kill much faster than a greater dragons.
     
  5. Ken of Napa

    Stratics Veteran

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    QFT!

    I have never ever GM'd any skill in 2 days. Much less 7xGM a Mage!
     
  6. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Yes, it is possible to GM the seven skills for a necro-weaver-mage with resist in 46 hours in game (take two hours off for server maintenance).

    But you have to know all the tricks.

    Or at least most of them.
     
  7. On the other hand, it doesn't take 2 years to train the taming skill to 120 as jfkeach claims. Of course, he is trying to compare skill gains from taming through "normal play" to power gaming the 7XGM mage in 2-3 days... not an apple to apples comparison at all.
     
  8. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Yeah, tamers are so over powered. . .

    I can kill a tamed GD in 5 spells with Myst and a dragon slayer book.

    SOOO over powered those GD's are! Because, its sooooo hard to cast, run on screen, click the GD, run away cast, run back.

    Don't believe me? Get 110 Eval Int, 91ish Myst, a dragon slayer book, and about 20% SDI. Then go chain cast Hail Storm on GD's.

    Regardless it does take substatially longer to GM Taming than any other skill, regardless of power gaming or not. I was GM Mage/Eval Int on my tamer FAR before I was even close to GM Taming, and this was doing cu's religiously for 2-3 hours a day, everyday, for about 2 months. I would get maybe .2 in taming, and thats if I was lucky.

    Also, the pure fact that a 3.0 taming SoT goes for 20mil+ is evidence that the skill takes far long.

    I GM'd my bush archer and samurai in several days of play time, swords/tacts/healing/anatomy/bush/parry. Chiv only went to 65ish.

    I gm'd resists in about an hour.

    The argument that taming is overpowered is so old and out dated and only squeaky butt hurt people are complaining about it because they don't know how to:

    A. Kill the tamer.
    B. Invis/hide to drop dragons agro
    or
    C. Can't move away from the slooooow dragon.

    My GD has never 1v1'd a decent PvPer. EVER.
     
  9. Honor, 300% DI or slayer/EoO, fast ass weapon, you will shred a beast way quicker than any tamer would. Champions for example. My GD may do an average hit of 50-80 damage per hit, with maybe an occasional 120 damage fire breath. My archer with Honor and DI and AI with a 30 ssi composite can chain 250+ damage attacks. You do the math. I'm not suggesting that archers in that case are overpowered, but anyone who says a tamer is over powered simply because they have access to strong pets is simply not a logical argument.
     
  10. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    7x gm in 2 days is way easy... Especially caster templates.
     
  11. Vhyle

    Vhyle Guest

    Hmm. I guess I need to play 12 hours a day to do it.

    But, I'm not into the whole power leveling thing. It's been the same for me for any MMO/RPG I've played, not just UO. I actually like to enjoy the game as I level up; to actually experience what the game has to offer as you train. I'm a slow leveler, but I don't mind.
     
  12. Xenobia

    Xenobia Lore Keeper
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    I have a job and a life so I can't power level anything EVER but I do think the taming thing stinks because you have to follow the animals all over creation to tame them, then let them go, which in and of itself is a pain to try and catch them so you can release them AND THEN you have to kill them and hope new ones spawn in their place. *sigh* I have played since beta and I am still not legendary (without jewels)
     
  13. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    By using a few easter eggs (no scripts either mind you) in the game, a person can build a 6X120 mage in less than 2 days.
     
  14. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    At the same time I can work magery, eval, resist, med, and a wep skill or wrestle.
     
  15. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    Easy. You start with 50 Magery and EI. You mark up MED and focus. Buy up Resist, Med, Focus, and any other skill you want to 40. You go to your house. Dress out with as much LMC, MR, FC/FCR as you can get on ya, and you cast on your parrot. If you set the UO Macro, Last Spell, wait for target, Last Target, Use Skill (EI), wait for target, last target, and you cast on your pet parrot. Over and over.

    If you have SC weps or even a wand that also has a -25 + penalty, you will GM Magery in less than 12 hours. The penalty means you get to cast lower level spells for your gains, and use less mana to get them. During this time, your med and focus will also be gm.

    You go to New haven, and you get as many of the spellbinders as you can to attack you while you are naked. You get 8-10 casting, you are GM Resist in about 2 hours.

    14 Hours in you are GM Mage, Med, EI, Focus, Resist. If that long. I usually save resist for last since it is the easiest, and i drop Focus becuase you dont need the MR to get to GM Resist.

    Then again, nowadays, GM Magery means nothing. To be useful hunting you need at least 115 magery.

    The 7xGM Template for a mage is dead. You have to have 120 Magery, Med, and EI to really rock as a mage. You have used 360 skill points up to this point. You have between 340 and 360 more to go until skill cap. Buy these scrolls, and spend the rest of the 48 hours training to legendary, and if you do it right you can reach skill cap easy.

    For the people just starting that I help with skill gain, (I give out 100 LRC armor, and spellbooks, and advice.) I can get them capped within a week of 2-3 hours a day in about a week. Ill even let them use my house and parrot if they dont have one.

    And for warrior types, come on, thats an even easier template to train if they have decent armor, and max out SSI, HCI, and fight according to their skill level. Healing takes a bit longer, but if you train CHIV first to gm, you go to a bank, and cast Sacrifice, drop your HP to 0. And heal. When you hit 80, you start drinking poisons. For a warrior type healing skill takes the longest to GM, so you would start with 50 healing, and possible 50 in your weapon choice. Buy the rest up to 40.

    If you have the resources, you can gain the skill. Look at how many people trained imbuing, and posted on these boards they were Legendary within a week. Powergaming exists, and people do put the effort into rapid skill gain. I cant tell you how many night mares I would tame or cu's for .1 gain in taming.

    And if you have the resources, get an advanced char token. Almost instant GM in any skill, except for taming. With the right information, and resources, you can gain in any skill almost over night, Taming and the bard skills are the hard ones. Smithing and mining takes far less time than taming, and you can make much more GOLD with those by doing the BODs.

    If you are going to make taming and bard skills so time consuming to make them effective to play, do it to all skills. If you cant make a GM Mage char in 48 hours, you are doing something wrong. And that does not mean sitting at the keyboard for 2 days straight, you can do 2-3 hours at a time, for a week, and have your mage built and out hunting.

    Even am elder tamer has to try several times to tame a high level pet for his gain. Usually in a dangerous area. So you have to contend with spawns and monsters. Taming CU's means you need good insurance because of the changelings. Any other skill can be done in the comfort of your house and in relative safety. And how many pets do you have to tame for .1 gain? Alot. I don't mind spending gold to train a skill, but the point to my original post was if the Dev's made promises to ease skill gain in taming, and they have made them on several occasions if you look back over the boards, why after years have they not done so? When you can train any other skill in a matter of DAYS.

    My disco bard, well her training is coming along. I am gaining about 1.0 per hour. So I have about 15 hours more to go until GM. I can live with that. Without jewels, without SoT's, how long does it take to gain 15 points in taming from 85-GM? Or to 120?

    Before you whine about Tamers being overpowered, invest the time to train your skills to get the high level pets, and then invest the time to train those pets. And yes, a skilled PvPer can take you and your pet out in no time. They run off screen, and the pets lose the target, they come back in and kill the tamer. Then they take the time to kill the pet at their leisure. If i was going to PvP with my tamer, I would use two pets, a mare and a rune beetle, and hope for a quick kill of the red. Otherwise I am toast. And yes, I have been knight of justice on King Sidhe. So I have had to fight the reds. Now, I just recall out. And Yes, I do hunt in fel. As well as peerless, and champ spawns.
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    @jfkeach...

    Lets look at this another way. They choose to play a skill in which they choose to let a pet do much of the fighting for them. This pet can be up to several times GM skill, with several times the hit points of its owner. At the same time, the tamer has up to 720 skill points of their own...with roughly only 220 or so skill needed to use said pets. So, its like two chars...one of which wears a leash...the other which gives command. When thought about from this perspective, can you understand why taming is so difficult to gain?
     
  17. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    I don't mind difficult. Really I don't. But I am not even taking into consideration the time necessary to train your pet. Healing on a cu takes awhile if you are not using discord. You have to fight many rotting corpses to train it otherwise. Training magery on a Nightmare without it being discorded can take forever too. That is why I am now training a discord bard on another account, so I can train the pets. The only reason. Never used a bard to disco a pet for training, and now is the first time I have ever had a mare at GM Magery. I spent countless hours training them on para cu's, or fighting Sphynx or Trogs.

    A friend took me to a spot, discorded my mare, and boom, gains on magery.

    I gained 1.3 on discord tonight in about 50 minutes. That is a very powerful skill as well. Used in spawns, it rocks. I can't imagine how long it took to gain 1.3 taming without SoT's.
    But, I have pushed through. Using SoT's, and lots of TAMING, have gotten over 100 Taming. Something it took me 2 years to do from 85. Maybe I am doing something wrong. My other tamer I bought the account with him already over 110. Had that account 2 years as well. I didn't religiously use GGS with him but he is at 112 naturally. In two years of using him to tame Cu's and then Greaters, he should have gained more than that.

    I have tamed countless CU's. Looking for the whites, the blacks, and the darned good ones. I don't sell them but I do give them to friends. I would spend hours taming them. Working the spawns. I don't think it should take that long to gain. For the power you gain as a tamer, me and a pet still dont solo peerless. You can with the sammie template, which takes days to train. So, the argument that taming is overpowered should look again at a warrior being able to tank peerless solo.

    Its all about being able to gain while playing normally. When is that going to happen for tamers?
     
  18. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I don't know, you can't teach 100 LRC, can you? ;) :thumbsup:

    Wrestling is insanely fast if you know how to do it, meditation is of course easy since it is natural, necro is about the easiest secondary skill to train due to forms and jewels, spirit speak is just mindless coins, resist spells depends on how many friends you have or if you're willing to slink it at old haven, eval and magery get harder and break most people down. Haha but you can train 0-120 in eval and resist with the same spell, so nothing is too impossible there.
     
  19. IMHO, instead of making taming gains insanely easy, these fast skill gains (for magery and perhaps other skills) should be fixed so you CAN'T get to Legendary in 3 days!
     
  20. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

     
  21. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    I will agree with that. Just remember if you make it too hard for a player to become effective, you will not expand your customer base. New players need a chance to be able to go out and explore, but unless they have skills, they are stuck in town when young status wears off. A reaper will kill someone that can't cure with low HP and bad armor.

    Yeah, I admit its too easy to get legendary skills for mages and warriors. I am not complaining that it's too easy, nor asking for there to be a nerf hammer. Just fix taming skill gains.

    I found recently you can gain bard skills on failures, as long as you are within your skill level. Add that to taming. Now you can't gain on failures, you have to succeed. That would make it easier but not overnight.

    Just imagine it taking 30 seconds or so to cast a spell, and you fail 3 out of 4 tries, and you can only gain skill on success, but not on every success. You can cast 100 spells in half the time it takes to tame 10 cu's. Easily. Therefore you will gain in magery much faster. Put it in that you can gain on failures as long as you are attempting to tame a pet within your level. Like disco. Cuts the time to gain in half or down to 1/4 the time. Still will take months to get to very high levels. Still takes a committment.
     
  22. In Flames

    In Flames Journeyman
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    Years? What the hell are you doing that makes it take years?

    Start a new character w/ 50 taming. Get +25 taming jewels. Go tame great harts (small island E from Trinsic, theres a bridge to it, or go to T2a) until about 85 w/ jewels (or until real, your choice) then go to del and tame bulls. Seriously. If you work at it you can have one done in a week or two. No joke.
     
  23. Actually, you can gain from taming failures, but they also have to be within your skill range. I got gains from failures while taming bulls at the lowest levels. Not to mention GGS gains.
     
  24. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    Then is it possible that something is wrong with my char? Because I NEVER gain taming from failures. I can tame for hours and get .1 gain, and taming within my level. I will admit, since using the last SoT that I bought, I seem to be gaining what I would consider to be acceptable. Maybe it's possible the char was stuck? Because I am taming the same things I have been for months, and now am actually gaining. I tried with jewels, without jewels, and now I am actually gaining.

    Then again, I am the person that can burn through 200k boards in heartwood and not get even an oak runic, while watching the guy next to me get 4 runics, 1 oak, 2 ash, and 1 heartwood in an hour doing the exact same quests i am doing.
     
  25. What is your current skill with and without jewelry, and what are you taming? It's a bit of a grind at the high end, but I've never been stuck. I even took a friend's tamer out to tame when she said her tamer was stuck... I got gains and tamed my first blaze cu sidhe on her tamer... lol
     
  26. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    WHAT....
    IS...
    SO...
    HARD...
    TO...
    UNDERSTAND...
    THAT...
    A...
    TAMER...
    IS...
    LIKE...
    PLAYING...
    TWO...
    CHARS...
    AT...
    ONE...
    TIME?

    Regardless of how you try to spin your argument, there are no other templates in this game that allow a char the functionality of a tamer. No other templates in the game allow you to have a combined HP total of 1000+, no other templates allow you to have a combined skill cap of OVER 1400, none...zip...nada.
     
  27. Dragonchilde

    Dragonchilde Guest

    Oh good God. Wah wah, I want an easy route maxing out the single most overpowered skill in the game. Seriously. Either work the skill, or don't. Somehow, people have managed to do it before you. And they've got something to be proud of, because it's HARD. It's supposed to be.
     
  28. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    Spam spells will give you GM Magery, Meditation, and Eval..... Spam spells on self to GM Resist spells....... depends on other skills but it is very possible.
     
  29. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    I could break down magery and own you but I won't.
     
  30. maroite

    maroite Guest

    I wouldn't say a tamers skill is over 1400. Lore and Taming are pretty useless. 240 points to just be able to control pets, and lets face it, pet controls are limited AND buggy.

    Not to mention a bush archer or dexxer can put out as much damage (usually more) with just as much survivability and generally better resists. Necro's can as well.

    So even if you look at tamers as having 1400 skill points, they're still doing less damage than people with only 720...
     
  31. maroite

    maroite Guest

    You must have tamed like 8 years ago, because I have NEVER gained taming skill ups from a failure. Ever.

    Animal Lore yeah, sometimes.
     
  32. maroite

    maroite Guest

    You are possibly one of the worst trolls ever. I see you saying how op taming is all the time, yet you never explain or give examples of how a tamer is op compared to other builds. You never give proof, when anyone with basic game knowledge would know that bush archers, samurai, and even spell casters can put out as much, if not more damage and do the same things a tamer can do.

    Bad troll is bad. :twak:
     
  33. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    Functionality of a tamer? Is that to go out and tame pets for zoo contributions? Or to do spawns and peerless? What is the tamers function in UO? To hunt, to do spawns, peerless, and to occupy bosses so others can cast or attack with reasonable chance of survivability. When it is time to do a peerless, most groups seek out us tamers. Time for a champ spawn, oh no, no tamers, not me...

    If done right, a sammie template can not only take on a peerless solo, but defeat it. It happens all of the time. There are movies of sammies taking on darkfathers solo, and winning on youtube. How many tamers will solo a darkfather with just their pet? The DF will kill your pet and you in no time, for a light snack.

    A mage has EV's, earth eles, etc... And as long as they have mana, they can keep them coming. One gets whacked, summon another. So dont give me line THERE IS TWO OF YOU NOW THAT YOU HAVE A PET.

    A mage can have two EV's at once. OR two earth eles, and how is that different than being a tamer? A tamer has to heal and cure the pet. The mage sits there and blasts away on the target, or keeps summoning more pets. Your argument is flawed. The mage doesnt have to sit there and train his pets. They come at the cost of a little mana. A spellweaver can go get a Artic Ogre Lord, with no more skill than weaving and magery. They can summon feys as well.

    A necro can summon familiars or avenging spirits. Sure my pet might be a little more durable, and do more damage, but I have to devote my attention to keep it cured and healed, and have three skills devoted to the purpose alone.

    A pet will be able to defend you if attacked in fel, but tactics are easy enough to defeat the lone tamer and his pet(S). Draw pet off screeen, kill tamer, kill pet. Now, the new little gargoyle pets can be used by anyone, with no taming. You can train them so that you have two and yourself. That is like having two mares as a tamer. They have similar skills and HP. But no investment in taming, lore, and vet skills. So get over it already.
     
  34. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I think it is in the best interest of the forums to just let you continue to cry. Since your first post I have gained 2.3 in taming for a grand total of 111.2. I would bet you didnt even do your daily gains...:sadpandaface:
     
  35. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Greater Dragon + 720 skill tamer = 1400+ effective skill...(I do not see lore and taming as useless since they are requirements for the pet...and the pet acts as your weapon)

    carry a mage wep for defense? add another effective 100+ skill...

    Also, this has nothing to do with other templates being better or worse, this is about the taming skill being too difficult in the eyes of some people.
     
  36. hmm... it was about 2 years ago, taming bulls outside Delucia, with skills in the mid-90's. But you might be right, I could be remembering getting multiple gains from the same bull.

    *I'd take my memory pills, if I could remember where I put them*
     
  37. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Gilfane

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  38. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    I'm sure most of it consists of non-attendance too.
     
  39. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    I DO NOT TRAIN Unattended. If I am training, I am there watching. But I will hold a button down and watch TV at same time.
     
  40. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I believe you only get taming skill gains from failed taming attempts if your taming skill is at or below 25.0. You can definitely get animal lore gains from failed taming attempts, though.

    I think someone on the dev team has been quietly tweaking the system for getting gains. I've been working on a handful of new characters of various types and it seems as if they've been getting gains pretty consistently, even though I changed my normal training routine for many of them so that they hit their 720 skill cap early on by letting med and focus go to GM and by letting mage characters that normally won't have evaluate intelligence when they're finished gain in the skill as they train up. I'll turn down all of these skills as the characters' final skills reach their maximums.

    I can't quite put my finger on what seems to be different other than noticing that I'm not hitting walls or lulls in skill gain like I remember happening with previous characters. Maybe all that's happened is someone looked at the effect of the RNG on skill gains and fixed some issues to prevent the RNG from nullifying too many skill gain opportunities.
     
  41. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    Yeah , it's hard to really know exactly what is going on in the game.. Ultima Online.. True story : ]
     
  42. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    RNG = Really Not Good. I stopped doing bods after doing for years. Now, if I want something in game, I just buy it. My tamers, well, they just jewel up. They gain if they gain, they dont if they dont. I get my GGS, and in 200 days I will be done with that. The whole point, is that on taming, you only gain on success. Even at 120 taming, you have a 1 in 20 chance to even try to tame a cu sidhe, and that is not the success rate but the chance to even try to tame it, ("You seem to anger the Beast"). So, how do we fix it? we let tamers gain even on fails. Apply the skill gain check at the beginning of the attempt not the success. But make it so you have to be trying a pet that is worthy of your skill.
     
  43. Fizzleton

    Fizzleton Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

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    sry cowboy, but this is bs. my sampire or my archer are as effective as my tamer with gd, only the situations change in which each char is most effective (there are some where I prefer my archer, and others where I prefer the others...). I don't think you will claim that my sampire is two chars, or my archer; and to speak about pvp - well, I really don't play the !magic! - two-char-system at all... rolleyes:
     
  44. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I have discordance tamer and a melee sampire.

    My meleesampire can take a lot of mobs 1on1 that my discotamer can't. It can use whirlwind and hit area when killing many mobs, my tamer can't. It gets 1000 extra luck from bushido, but it's easier to use lucksuit on tamer.

    Is tamer easy way to go in many PvM situations? Yes. Is it the best way? No.

    They are EASY to play, but not the most effective.