1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

lol, legal cheating

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Chaos, May 17, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was messing around with keyboard macros and N52 macros. And one nice thing is that they can be set to go to a specific window.

    So in reality, since my machine has a 980X processor and 12 Gb of RAM, then I can literally have all 10 accounts running at the same time in virtual machines and through the macros I can send commands to each virtual machine.

    So I can control all 10 accounts in a rudimentary fashion through UOA or EC macros if I so wanted, lol. And with the 3 monitors I can see all clients at the same time, so its not UAMing.

    And none of it is against the rules. Keyboard macros and such have already been deemed legal to use, virtual machines are legal, Attended Macroing is legal.

    So its a kind of legal cheating, lol.

    Haven't actually done it yet, color me lazy. But man, if I truly was a cheater and loaded up all 10 accounts with a cheat script program I'd be rich now instead of semi-poor.
     
  2. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    If it is allowed, then by definition it isn't cheating.

    Remember, what's not allowed is using the unapproved 3rd party programs, or doing things while unattended.

    So if you can somehow automate functions with a keyboard, mouse, UO Assist, or the UO client, and you're there when you do it, it's all good, assuming you don't get a GM who misunderstands quite radically what's going on.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, as far as I know the situation you describe isn't disallowed by the rules of UO any more than leading bases is disallowed by the rules of baseball.

    Periodically, people compare what can be done with the popular scripting program with what can be done within the rules of the game. (Anyone reading this knows what I'm talking about. Most UO players have no idea, but most Stratics users do. Please don't be coy, everyone.)

    But so far as I know, there's no comparison. So either I radically underestimate what can be done within the rules, or the person who makes the comparison is being disingenuous.

    Over the years I've come to think that, while I historically have underestimated what can be done within the rules, I'm still mostly right, and what can be done legally cannot compare to what can be done illegally.

    -Galen's player
     
  3. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    UOA has always been the legal cheating program.
     
  4. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh hey Coppelia, nice to see you again :)
     
  5. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Thanks :)
    I hope you're not planning to open a sweat shop! :D
     
  6. LC, you would be shocked what you can do with an N52 and the right keyboard software. If you throw in some basic scripts, UO can play itself. I think the devs are going to have a hard time eliminating scripting. Speedhacking is something they can do something about, but scripting is going to be problematic to eliminate because there are so many different methods that one can use, not that I use them or anything. To me, I play the game for the experience of it, not the end results (items, gold, etc). But I am also not stupid, I know that there are many, many, many scripters in UO that are only after the end results (items, gold, etc) and that they sell these things for real life cash.

    I don't envy the devs the task of eliminating scripting...I feel it is going to be about like trying to remove copyrighted material from the internet. When you shut one script program down, 3 more will pop up to take its place.
     
  7. Tek

    Tek Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    3
    I like my N52, handy device.
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    There's a big difference between what can be done with a programmable keyboard, and "The-Program-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named". There are also other well known and powerful Windows scripting engines out there that aren't tailored to any specific game but are considered illegal by the developers of most MMO's, I would be surprised if they aren't considered illegal by Mythic as well.

    But even at that there is a big difference between what can be done with those Windows scripting engines and the scripting engines available with most programmable input devices. With the developers of most MMO's there is also a line that can be crossed even with the scripting engines that come with programmable input devices, and again.

    But you are correct, I'm sure it is a real challenge to catch a lot of what can be done with scripting engines of all kinds. However, when it comes to UO there are two "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" which are in an entirely different league than the more generic Windows scripting engines, and if they can be shut down an awful lot of the cheating that goes on in UO would be ended.
     
  9. The problem is going to come in once the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" are identified by the game itself. Whatever action the game, the devs, or GMs take against players that have the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" is not important, because once the creators of the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" realize that the game is detecting them, they will simply change the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" so that they are not detectable. Which then forces the devs into a never ending cycle of identifying the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named"...which leads the creators of the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" into a never ending cycle of changing the "Programs-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" into something that cannot be detected.
     
  10. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    geee, something like AV and malware detection proggies/devs are going thru these days. no?
     
  11. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    The thing is third party cheat detection doesn't need to be 100% effective to be effective. All you need to do is catch someone once to ban them. Every time the cheat detection is updated to catch the latest cheat there will be a lag time between the time the cheat detection is updated and the cheats are updated. Eventually most of the people that use those programs on official shards will be caught. It's inevitable.

    But of course it is a cat and mouse game, and for an anti cheat system to be effective, effort is required. Intelligence needs to be gathered, and systems adjusted as the cheats are modified, and of course the intelligence gathering is the most labour intensive and important aspect of an anti cheat system. It will be interesting to see if the devs commit the necessary resources.

    This isn't an accusation, it's a merely an observation on a consistent theme in LC's posting. One of the hall marks of a cheater is a consistent pattern of accusation. Cheaters have a tendency to accuse other people of cheating.

    They do this for a number of reasons. They do it to cause confusion and obscure their own behaviour, and they do it to justify their behaviour and assuage their own feelings of guilt.

    There is also something called "selfish cheating". Cheaters are looking for an advantage, and if they have found a cheat that gives them an advantage they want as few people using it as possible, so they will "rat out" their fellow cheaters to weaken their competition.

    I find it interesting that LC consistently attempts to label perfectly legal programs and game playing behaviours as "cheating".
     
  12. Yes, exactly. The problem is, UO developers are not AV developers...this task alone is going to eat up more dev time than pretty much anything else. I am not saying I don't want to see cheating dealt with...just saying that it is going to be problematic.
     
  13. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    12
    imho even with a quad/six core, running VM's and 10 accounts will lag big time, then all of that through a non-load balancing single isp ?
     
  14. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,431
    Likes Received:
    21

    If you're lazy then you're saying it's a lot of work to do. If it's a lot of work to do, how can you consider it cheating? :mf_prop:

    Can that keyboard run macros on programs that are running in the background? I fail to see how it would run 10 macros on ten different screens.

    Also, I think you're underestimating the power of your computer if you actually have what you claim. On my laptop (it's a 4 year old XPS, Nvidia 8600M GT, 3gigs ram blah blah). And I can load up 7 UOs and run them on three monitors as well... Are they playabe? well, not if you want to switch between screens often haha. But still, you're comp can blow that the Hell away.
     
  15. NASA

    NASA Guest

    The problem is not the program you know about, It's the ones that you don't know about. The ones that are custom written.
    And the one to blame for them is OSI when they released the source code on the T2 disk.
     
  16. I've run 4 instances of the classic client on a single core machine before with no problems at all (yes, on EA shards...and no, I will not tell you how to do it)
     
  17. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,956
    Likes Received:
    5,439
    Personally I prefer my Logitech G13... to the old N52 I had. But I know it's capabilities... and I know the G13's..... could do an awful lot of things... could being the keyword here.. but I chose to play my characters... not automate them.
     
  18. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    I find this amusing considering you have accused me of cheating and hinted at me being a cheater over and over again, lol.

    Busted!
     
  19. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,553
    Likes Received:
    3,840
    YOU'RE ALL CHEATERS OMG
     
  20. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    I'm with you on not automating things. My G15 can do a lot, but I choose not to do it.
     
  21. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    12
    lol you kids today

    he said vm's and uo's ... ten of them.

    four classic clients (no vm/s) running on a single core? that's cute. on a single core machine, running one uo causes near/at 100% cpu usage. i can imagine the lag you experienced running four,that's not 'playable.'
    also to Chaos, how will you 'ctrl' from vm to vm smoothly ?
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    LOL!

    I am Lord Chaos's worst nightmare... a UO player who uses the Enhanced Client, an N-52, AND three monitors.
     
  23. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2003
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not that it matters any longer, but at one time, there was a 3rd party app written for EQ that would allow multiple clients to run at the same time, with proper memory management (something that SOE still hasn't gotten 100% correct). Same program, with some tweaking to the INI and config files could also run multiple instances of UO/CC (but not UOA) at the same time, on a 486. It wasn't pretty, and it wasn't stable, but it worked. It would also run multiple instances of the TD client on a P4, and rather well.

    So in this situation, I've got to go with what Morgana has posted, just by knowing that a 3rd party app for a different game would do it. The old multi-client program written for UO probably worked just as well.

    And I still think it's silly that EA/Mythic still hasn't managed to come up with a way to run multiple clients of the CC in a stable manner.
     
  24. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    They haven't? I thought they did. Im able to run mutiple CC clients with np.
     
  25. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Afaik, if you have the "program that shall not be named running", then you can run many CC clients...hmmmm.
     
  26. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I also could run 4-5 uo clients watch a movie and download in a single core with np either.
     
  27. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    12
    never said it wasn't possible, just gawdawefully laggy.
     
  28. Pawain

    Pawain Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    Messages:
    3,692
    Likes Received:
    129
    I have an N52te. But, I could not get the classic client to recognise the buttons. I had to make the buttons imulate keyboard buttons.

    Is there a way for the classic client to recognise the default buttons?

    Thanks.
     
  29. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    12
    [email protected] too im sure lol
     
  30. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    Then maybe EA should take a note out of Blizzard's book, their scripting/Bot issue ended with a $6 million court settlement. I bet development and updates for it (UO's Program that Shall Not Be Named) would stop pretty quick if the developers of it wound up in court with a hefty judgment against them.
     
  31. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Nah that would be way too much. Though i guess it's not fair I build networks for companies as a job so I know my way around my own system. I have zero bloatware,tweaked every aspect of all my pc's and of my home network. Hell when my network is down i usually know if the isp line is down before they do and tell them where lol. Really they should also pay me for doing there job for them. So I do have a good advantage over the average user.
     
  32. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    I have all my N52 buttons set to Ctrl-Alt-X (QWERTY ASDFG ZXCV respectively), then build the macros around those keybindings accordingly. Worked well in the 3d client (which used the same macro system as 2d), and works VERY well in EC.
     
  33. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2003
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    0
    With UOA running, at all? If so, please share. All it does for me is crash the 2nd instance.
     
  34. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    D0 you try to run 2 instances of UOA? I could run 1 instant of UOA and 1 regular without a crash. I haven't tried 2 UOA
     
  35. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - I get it: Lord Chaos ~ LC ~ Legal Cheating...

    /end troll troll
     
  36. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Also what error crash message you get. Is it client.exe crash or another file. Your system specs as well.
     
  37. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    You already can, legally.
    No third party programs, nothing untoward.
    I just had 7 login screens turning my processor into a furnace - just load it up again.
     
  38. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    No illegal programs needed to run multiple clients.

    And if it's legal, it's not cheating...
     
  39. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Though still not with UOA to them all, thats still the point.
     
  40. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    Because UOA isn't made by the devs. It's an external program created and (supposedly) maintained by a third party. Take it up with them.
     
  41. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    48
    lol not to feed the troll
    but can run multi clients of uo cc legal

    uoa cant run past first version

    if he is doing non legit crap

    well then again look at poster lol :)



     
  42. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,627
    Likes Received:
    1,386
    It boggles my mind that some higher quality threads were locked, while this one remains. I just don't get it...
     
  43. Shamus Turlough

    Shamus Turlough Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    207
    We're watching. Contrary to popular opinion, we do not lock threads just because we don't agree with the posters or content.
     
  44. [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NpYEJx7PkWE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NpYEJx7PkWE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
     
  45. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    :heart: the muppets, and especially the old farts.
     
  46. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I realized I was leaving myself open to this one. But in legalize there is something called "preponderance of evidence". Loosely defined it means you don't look at only one piece of evidence when determining guilt.

    You have consistently defended cheaters and cheating on these forums. You have consistently advocated against effective anti-cheat measures being introduced. You have consistently pointed the finger at perfectly legitimate, accepted activities that in no way break the TOS and called them "cheating". I have done none of these things. ;)
     
  47. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Good points Llewen, however he will persist in being silly. It's what endears him to all of us here! rolleyes:
     
  48. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    You pointed your own finger at yourself, thats pretty damning evidence, heh. You don't have even the slightest evidence against me, yet you point your own finger at yourself and that is actually evidence, its called self-incrimination.

    I called it legalized cheating. Aka. Things that were considered cheating now made legal.

    And none of what you mentions even remotely makes one a cheater or even more likely to being one.
     
  49. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Um, what exactly was once considered cheating and is now made legal? If you mean the topic of this thread, I don't remember it ever being considered illegal.
     
  50. There's never been anything illegal about using client-side scripts, as long as they don't change or intercept data coming in from or going out to the servers.

    Script programs have been around as long as modern computers have been.

    The problem with some of the current script programs is that they actually receive data from the server before it reaches the client...that's how people with auto-heal/auto-cure hacks pull that off. That's against the ToS/RoC (not sure which and not bothering to look it up).

    Simply using a script program that performs multiple functions, such as is available with some keyboards, or gaming devices like the G13/N52, is not against any rules.

    However, once you set up your script program, and start repeating functions in the game (like casting a specific spell, or make a specific item) and walk away from your computer...you are in violation of the rules.

    They haven't actually made any "legal" that was once "illegal"...in fact, they made playing AFK illegal after it was legal.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.