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Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Draxous, Mar 6, 2010.
Favorite flash movie ever. You should check out Ed McManus's videos. His were also great.
Totally agreed. That is a great flash video, and represents what is great about UO.
What I totally don't get - why does everyone on Siege love what this represents, and because of this play Siege, yet not realize this can not exist with item based combat as it is today?
We all loved this playstyle, this danger. When someone went out hunting, the fact that we could run into a pk and have to defend ourselves. That anything could happen, running into a pk on the way to the moongate. But think how item based combat comes into play.
Pre-AOS, lets take two fencers. The PVM hunter probably was wearing studded leather, wielding a spear, had some pots and bandages and was hunting earth elementals in shame. The Pk is probably wearing the exact same gear, runs into shame, sees the pvm hunter and they fight. And it's the skill of the players and the RNG that determines the outcome. The most important part of this is that EITHER PLAYER has a fair chance at coming out of this encounter on the winning side. Most likely the pk wins simply because they pvp more BUT AT LEAST the pvm'er has a chance. The pk'er enjoys the pk'ing. The pvm'er enjoys the rush of defending their life.
Post AOS. Same situation. PVM hunter is rolling with a fencing weapon that has say blood elemental slayer, 30+ HML, 30+ hit fireball or something like that. Their suit has low resists, probably 40's-50's all across the board but has 600-1000 luck, maybe 20 or so HCI. The pk now has a fencing weapon with 40+ hit fireball, 40+ hit lower defense, 30+ SSI. Their suit has 45 HCI, 20 DCI, MR5, LMC 25+ and 70s resists. There is no way the PVM'er has a chance to win this encounter. The second the PVM'er sees the pk'er, their first thought is I gotta get the **** outta here. There is absolutely no fun for the pvm'er in being put in an encounter they have no chance of winning.
So what does the pvm'er do? As people like to say, 'times change you need to adapt!' So the pvm'er adapts. Since the pvm'er knows they can not win a fight against a pk'er they adapt themselves to survivability. They pick up hide and stealth so if they ever see a pk'er they can safely GET AWAY. Not fight, because they know they have no ****ing chance.
Then the pk'ers out there ***** and moan, "how come everyone hides/stealths, how come there is never anyone to fight" etc etc. Why the hell do you think no one wants to fight you? They have no chance whatsoever against you.
Before AOS I'd say 70-80% of all pvp'ing was pk'ing. Murderers would roll through shame killing everyone. People would raid wispwood, the orc fort, safe haven, brit graveyard etc. The remaining 20-30% was people going to pure pvp hotspots like luna today, back then it was all the pvp'ers hanging around yew gate.
Item based combat has utterly destroyed this entire pk/pvp encounter. When you have a subset of items needed to pvp with, and a separate subset of items needed to pvm with, these people will never meet on the field to do battle because well the pvm'er will never win.
And people wonder why there is no pvp anymore.
I WANT to go out there, hunt, run the risk of running into the pk'er and have to defend myself with the possibility of winning. Unfortunately, I have to either gear up to maximize pvp, or maximize pvm, I can't have both. This works fine for prodo shards. Wear your pvm **** in trammel, your pvp stuff in felucca. Doesn't work here.
This entire post is a fail...
As is yours, without any commentary to back your claim.
I actually found Bruin's post to be spot on.
I didn't feel like elaborating, as I knew at the time I would write an essay or two worth the explaination.
Point 1. Combat has always been item based. (invuln armor, vanq weaps ruled) The only exception being the good mages would run naked just to mock those they killed.
Point 2. 2 equally skilled fencers, pvm temp, lets assume chiv bushi dexer. Pvp temp, lets assume ninja. Unless his armor is complete garbage, the chiv bushi dexer has more than a chance. The only distinctly pvp template is a ninja. Many "pvm templates" such as chiv bushi dexer, are very good in pvp.
Point 3. Going by his views on it, hide and stealth gives some survivability and takes away even more of the chance he had of actually beating the pker. Its a self defeating thing that ties into the next point. *Side note* Pvpers don't complain there are no pvmers to kill, they complain pvpers all run stealth.
Point 4. Everyone would die when the murderers rolled in because most thought "we are ****ed, run" with a few thinking fight, offering little resistance against the pkers. Items haven't killed the pk/pvmer exchange; mindset has. This is the same reason why pvmers are now hopping in factions and using faction runes instead of stealth.
Your point #1 in true in a sense. There have always been items that are better than others in game. But on the flip side, a vanq wep didn't necessarily mean you were unbeatable. I destroyed and looted massive amounts of vanq and invul gear by simply using GM armor and my favorite force long spear. Was i decked out to the hilt in the top of the line gear, hell no. Did i stand a chance against ANY pk'r, most definitely yes (and then some LOL).
Other than this, i agree with Bruin's post...
If what he says is true, and the golden days of pre-aos "non item based combat" are really so great in your eyes. Then why won't you give up your stuff to wipe siege and make it classic like Tibs suggested?
with the addition of new skills, and the change to the way some of the old ones worked going back to those glory days will never be an option on this shard.
I would also like to add you can certianly compete against any pvper while being decked out for pvm. I have seen many a tamers do very well against a group of pvpers. I have also done spawns while being a decked out sampire and have been raided and killed half the raiders myself as a sampire.
Maybe just maybe it is the fact that this game changed and most people still playin this shard havent changed with it. They want to go back to the way things were. That isnt gonna happen on this shard. Once most of you realize this than maybe we could get some good changes in here until than enjoy the almost buried shard.
I agree. A tamer can run 1000+ luck WITHOUT a luck statue, 2/6 cast, a mage weapon, DCI, and stealth.
Ring: 1/3 100 Luck 10DCI 10 Mage
Brace: 1/3 100 Luck 10DCI 10 Mage
Tunic: Cursed AOF
Gorget: Luck mempo, PBD.
Gloves, sleeves, legs - 20LRC each, 130 luck each, high resist.
Shield: SC no-1 10DCI 40 luck
Weapon - SC no-1 130 luck -20 mage weap
45DCI, 1260 luck? Close to all 70's, 100%LRC.
I assure you as one of the best PvPers on the shard, I am not killing a tamer with this set up and a GD.
Hell, with that killing a half decent mage tamer wouldn't be a walk in the park either.
The only problem with this scenario is it's solely based on a 1v1 situation, which doesn't exist on this shard anymore due entirely to everything being item based combat and the fear people have of losing their precious... Lemme elaborate for ya on your template. A tamer with said template above is working a spawn and doing well. A stealther comes in (from any guild cause everyone is a stealther) and see's tamer. Simple call to the gank squad (2 people total will do) and as soon as enough spawn is on the dragon (or whatever pets) out pop's the gank and i'm guess with 50% HLD against 45 DCI we'll see a dead tamer in about 5 seconds or 2-3 swings each. Done finished kaput. Lets hear now from the guilds that used ghost cams now...
Hld has to hit first, so I'd say more swings than that. This of course assuming you are right, and the tamer is a complete dumbass and just stands there and takes the hits. (Do you pvm like this? If not don't make such a stupid example) Not only that, *gasp* smoke bomb. You would have to suck ass, no, you'd have to fail so epically you should just quit, if you were killed in this way. Not to mention throwing your drag on them, which does work if you know how to do it no matter the amount of spawn, will do more than its share to scare or hinder most.
Oh ya i forgot i need to spell it out for certain people...All stop followed up with all kill. I forget some people are simple...Since you seem to have more knowledge of taming than the 11 yrs i have, answer me this. Does saying all stop/all kill keep the spawn that is already targeted on your drag stop attacking? Insert your cry here _______. Or maybe the mages leet skills on foot is gonna keep him alive LOL. My guess is this, the dude will say "oh sh*t" then hit his hot key for the faction rune LOL. You might wanna take up an argument with some nuub that just starting playin, not with one that has forgot more info on this game than u might even know
Sorry had to make an edit for the ninja skill. Your right, a mage is totally super uber in animal form LOL.
*edit* no point in this... You won't get it.
Ya, I've seen McManus. I miss WTFMan
This shard can have it. What it takes to make it happen is what will never be an option on this shard.
Already talked about monster loot. Instanced dungeons. Private housing. All of it. For years. Community needs to come together to make things better and you all just don't.
I agree with this. No one wants to give a little. It is "I WANT IT THAT WAY!" No one sees that it is a progression, and sometimes a bandaid DOES work because it gets the ball rolling.
...You ever fight against Vitamin D? How about, Voodoo (alot of people hated him, but he played a good tamer.) They would destroy groups of 5-8 pvpers, decked out in gear....Two pvp'ers, if the tamer know's what they're doing, shouldnt kill a tamer...hands down.
You sir just don't know how to play the template.
BTW, when a decent pvper gets attacked. Their first thought isn't "Oh, ****" Its "game time." Then they proceed to kill noobs like you that then come here and post garbage on the forums.
I fell the Ninja/Tamer is one fo the reasons Siege has dropped so much.
Over my two + years here I remember seeing alot of I quit posts, followed by a story about a Stealthing Tamer and a GD...
The GD has been Nerfed but the people never came back.
After this weekend I hold some hope that the shard will come back, we saw alot of people, some old and some new! We had a few Touney fights (thxs FUDD) and even had Sp back, we finally got a few pepd in vent 30 mins after you guys logged.
Either way I am going to continute to play Siege for a little while longer and then will go to a free server I guess.
I am not currently an active pvper but having just returned after a seven year break I think I have something to add.
Item based pvp is here and it has good points and bad points. I does create a rather steep learning curve for new and returning player. Even beyond learning the properties and their uses the mechanics of replacing and maintaining a certain outfit are intense.
Now I am a gamer geek from way back so I dont really mind. Mastering the arcana is part of UO. I suspect many players value the intellectual "sweat equity" that goes into figuring all this stuff out. Really that is probably why I came back.
Back to PvP, my own opinion is that choosing to fight in all artifacts or faction gear or whatever is a choice that people can make. I wont do it and I will happily lose fights because of it. When I go out to pvm I am fully willing to lose everything on me because I use gear that is very easy to replace.
On the off chance that I win a fight out in the world and my opponent is decked out in expensive gear all the better. I will happily loot what I can use or sell and be greatful for the opportunity.
Essentially the new mechanics present players with a choice. Gear up and win more often or not. The risk vs. rewards calculation is fine.
One last point- I definitely respect pvpers who fight in gm/lowend gear more. If you kill me without a suite of artifacts I am going to respect you more. But either way, bring it on.
Correct, combat has always had item based properties to assist. The difference is, which I tried to clarify by stating item based combat as it is today. The difference was, back then you could get a vanquishing katana, and you could use that very effectively against both pvpers and monsters. So the items you used for pvm were the same items you used for pvp.
Today, you use a luck suit for pvm. Luck does not help in pvp. And since you are limited in the number of properties an item can carry, for every item you use that has a pvm based property, that means it has one less pvp based property.
Again, the difference between items back then and today was, items back then could be used for any purpose, therefore the pvm'er did not have a disadvantage against the pvp'er. Today, items have a more specific purpose (slayers and luck for example) geared towards pvm or pvp so they are not always easily interchangeable.
Not arguing templates here. A chiv dexxer is a chiv dexxer. Difference is, a chiv dexxer decked out in a luck suit (the pvm'er) versus a chiv dexxer decked out in a full arty suit (the pvper) has no chance.
Agreed. Once you've already given up and realize you can't win a fight against a pk, you trade skills in being able to beat a pk for skills in being able to get away from a pk (hide/stealth/ninja).
Yup fought and destroyed both of em and you know how i did it? I always run my tamer with nothing less than ninja, music/disco, taming lore vet.
Scenario #1: Seen Vit D in brit bank. I run up, get off a lucky disco on his drag. I hit my animal form macro and target him with my drag. His drag tries and fails (cause disco rules!) and my drag makes mince meat of him. Vitamin D dead...
Scenario #2: Voodoo around luna with drag...rinse repeat scenario #1...
I'll give ya one last one for sheets and giggles...Your very own almighty shkaja. Little different in only that i used my dog to kill his drag every single time i was on the field. Yes sir, i must be pretty awful a pvp'r and pvm'r to do all this without a single fighting skill and only pots and hpr armor on with ZERO HIDING or STEALTH LOL.
Oh i see. He just sat there after his dragon died and let you kill him huh?? Yeah sounds like him...
I HIGHTLY doubt you killed him. Unless there was a gank, because that wouldn't have happened.
In the real world when a Smart Pvp Tamers pet gets discoed, They instantly run/smoke bomb/hide.
The fact that you actually expect us to believe thats how either of those fights goes down speaks volumes about your "PvP Prowess"
I think he considers killing Vit D's dragon the same as killing Vitamin D himself.
There are two props a pvm weapon mght have that a pvp weapon doesn't. Slayer and leech. On my sampires (normally macing) I have slayer, and due to the sheer amount of damage done with enemy of one and perfection, I only ever use slayers against bosses. Except when I'm going to run an area packed with that specific type of monster, such as the mini-spawns in the abyss. Then mana leech, ssi, either hla or hld and a spell. (some people insist you should have life leech, but I run healing/anat) I have no di if I need a slayer, di if I don't. This is not a bad pvp weapon.
Secondly, unless you are damn sure you can handle the situation with ease its not smart to sacrifice resists for luck. I could see this in a tamer, but a meleer? As long as you use perfection your luck is 1000. Which alone beats/ties your stated luck. Leaving room for resists. Heck, you could probably run GM armor and do well with a sampire, and still survive decently in GM armor. Horned of course, you'll need that fire resist. Even better if you run higher end gear. Running faction/high end gear, and having half a clue how to play it, you should never die without more than 2 on you with this template.
For the most part... I only ever PvM'd in PvP gear. On a server like this I never wanted to be out and not be able to fight.
With that said, the only time luck suits are even worth it are against bosses. And even then... it's only really worth it when you push 2500-3000+ (with perfection.)
You should be equipped to fight every time you leave the house/bank. If you're not... you may want to start with that tid-bit whenever you re-examine why you die so much.