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Loyalty : shouldn't it be clearly visible ?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    No, I am not referring to Gargoyle Queen or Bane or Ophidians' Loyalty. That is clearly visible already.

    I am referring to the Fish Mongers' Loyalty which one builds up through turning in fishing orders.

    Why am I saying that I think it as advisable that it should be visible ?

    Soultones.

    We can soulstone a skill on a soulstone and pretty much change up all skills on a given character.

    What if a player after working up fishing loyalty stones fishing, perhaps takes a break from the game, when they resume fishing taking it up from the soulstone they may no longer remember which the character was who had built up loyalty with the fish mongers.

    If it was visible just like all other loyalties are, this would ease up life for the player a whole lot and avoid the mistake to pick up the wrong character and have to restart loyalty build up all over again when they already have a stock of loyalty built up on one of their characters......

    I mean, we do have other loyalties showing so I do not see why also the one built with the fish mongers cannot possibly be made clearly visible.

    Another reason would be to help fishermen see their loyalty progress and be able to feel how they are progressing with their fish mongers' loyalty build up.

    I know there will be players who will feel they have to say that the Developers have much better ways to spend their time so, since I said it already, there is no need for you to say it here.

    Though, having seen developers' time spent on things which I felt much less usefull to players, and since I do not imagine that making fish mongers' loyalty visible would be that much of developers' time taken away from other things, I still think this should be a good addition to the game and developers' and programmers' time well spent.
     
  2. Lady Tia

    Lady Tia Certifiable
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  3. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I agree too!
     
  4. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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  5. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    I totally agree with your points and we would also report bugs (if any) about the fishmonger loyalty system if we could actually see it.
     
  6. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Good idea popps. Hope someone out there who does things (like maybe a dev?) could give us their feedback on it?
     
  7. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    A nice idea, Hope they do it.

    UO is very inconsistent with systems though, So no surprise they didn't bother with it.
     
  8. unified

    unified Guest

    I also agree. And, if this gets fixed, also fix loyalty to the Solens, virtue points and virtue title/levels, and which one of my characters completed the Spellweaver quest, and who actually read those curesed books to make glass, etc. :)
     
  9. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Good idea.

    If they decide to work on fish monger loyalty to show then better take the occasion and get all loyalties that need help be worked on at the same time and be done with whatever problem may be with them once and for all........
     
  10. showing fish monger reputation doesn't seem out of reach for the developers to add they just seemed to not want it to be that apparent. when the booster was released, when you abandoned a quest, or turned one in, reputation gains were displayed in the players journal (not a numerical amount, just + and -). however, they turned this off within a few days, so there's clearly something keeping track of the reputation. it would be interesting to see how this is all being configured, how reputation raises and drops, but i don't think it will enhance the players experience other than giving players a reason to complain when they are receiving crappy rewards when they clearly have high reputation.


    as for me, i haven't soulstoned my fishing off just because i'm not sure if the reputation will take a hit. i assume it does because that's what others are speculating and it's not worth it to me to take that risk. whether it's displayed or not, i just assume it's working the way it's supposed to, as i have no issues getting 6 liners or powerscrolls. it seems no problem just to have one character as a dedicated fisher (one who uses the 120 scroll and reputation).
     
  11. Perhaps, so as not to cram it in with the other loyalty menu, and as its specific to fishing, they could make it so saying loyalty to the fisher npc tells you?
     
  12. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    Thats what makes things even more inconsistent, They could add tabs to the Loyalty Menu.

    Crafting | Creatures for example.
     
  13. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I see nothing wrong in players being able to monitor their improvements in the game. It actually helps to visually see their efforts change the numerical value shown. It is a visual gratification of their done work. It is good, IMHO.

    I remember when skills where shown only in full points and players would complain that they trained and trained but saw no visual benefit for their efforts. Wisely, the developers back then decided to add also decimals to be displayed so that players could more often keep track of their improvements and efforts in the game.

    I see loyalty with the fish mongers just the same (important to be clearly displayed) and sorry, I do think it as valid the reason to hide the display of fish monger loyalty to players so that they would complain less when receiving a crappy reward since they have no idea what their loyalty status is.

    I'd way, but way more prefer to see whatever is causing a crappy reward to be given at a high loyalty level be fixed, rather than hide the truth about what is going on to players.....

    That's also another issue that needs to be cleared up.

    Does soulstoning of fishing erase all accumulated loyalty ?

    I mean, there is players who have done hundreds upon hundreds of fishing orders, perhaps even more than a thousand orders. Erasing weeks, months of work done just for the simple act of souolstoning the fishing skill would be dead wrong, IMHO.

    And it is also wrong to leave players without knowing whether they are STUCK to leave the fishing skill on their current characters, indefinitively, because should they soulstone it they'd loose all their accumulated loyalty with the fish mongers.

    I think this is an issue that needs an answer at the very soonest and should it be true that soulstoning the fishing skill erases all accumulated loyalty, this should get fixed also very very soon because I do not think that players should be left stuck with the fishing skill on a given character.
     
  14. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    popps made a post that I actually agree with. It's the end of the world.

    Seriously, though, I think that the Loyalty system should be expanded to include things like the Solens, Terathans, et cetera, and the gump refined to easily convey this sort of information for a wide array of...peoples...civilizations...whatever you'd call it. I hate to say that UO should be more like WoW, but WoW is very good at this sort of thing with their Reputation system.

    Unfortunately, a lot of game developers are of the mindset that they should show as little data as possible to their players in order to purvey a "sense of mystery and discovery." I'm of the absolute opposite view; we as players should be able to see and understand all but the actual code itself.
     
  15. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    *laughs* I was thinking the same thing!

    But no.... Seriously I do agree.
     
  16. Nails

    Nails Journeyman
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    fully agree! anything loyalty or point based, even doom, should be viewable
     
  17. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    There was also hints a while back from discussions that, unlike book entitlements and recipes, fishing loyalty might have been getting wiped when the skill was stoned.

    Without being able to see the loyalty points, there was no way for a player to confirm or deny, to even see if it was a real concern or not, to report it as a bug.
     
  18. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    I am still waiting on Dev's official word on if there is a loyalty pt wipe when the fishing skill is being added/removed from a character.

    since there is really no sure way to test it, could we get a Dev to test it or confirmation of loyalty wipe upon losing/adding fishing skill?
     
  19. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I think this is really an important issue worthy of an official answer and the sooner the better.

    I mean, building up loyalty can be very very time consuming as fishing orders take time to fill and to deliver; and to waste weeks upon weeks if not months of loyalty build up just for having soulstoned the fishing skill without being aware of the consequences, can be really upsetting to a player.......

    By pressing that simple button to soulstone the fishing skill endless time of fish monger loyalty build up is erased ?

    Players have the right to know it, I think.
     
  20. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I do think we should be able to see an indication of loyalty, though I'd be happy to just see a + or - sign when I did something good or bad. I'm not really caring how many points I have exactly, only that I'm doing the right things and avoiding the wrong ones.

    As for the soulstoning points, I'd expect that transferring fishing to another character would leave the loyalty points on the original character. You can't transfer points from other systems so I would expect it to work the same way for fishing - each character works up their own loyalty. On the positive side, if your loyalty is awful on your fisher, soulstoning the skill over would give you a clean slate.

    BTW there is a way to tell which of you characters was the fisher if you soulstone the skill off. The soulstone should have the character's name on it and if your fisher used a powerscroll then simply look at his/her fishing skill cap and it'll tell you.

    Wenchy
     
  21. Specialshoes

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    Determining another characters loyalty. Wouldn't that make a great use for Forensic Evaluation?

    Since the thread seems to be about fishing loyalty maybe I should clarify. That I think it would be a great use to determine a characters loyalty to bane, gargoyle, meer, etc.
     
  22. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I do not think that + or - is enough.
    Some players work fishing orders only casually while some others spend a lot of efforts in them. I read of someone who has so far done so many orders to have many baits in the range of 7,000 charges each......

    I think players should be capable of being able to tell where all of their hard work with fishing orders went and to see very high loyalty points would at least be a sign that their hard work went into something as compared to, say, a casual fisherman....

    This is an assumption. As of now we have no idea what actually happens. It could be that loyalty stays on the character but it could also be that soulstoning the skill wipes it all.
    We simply do not know and neither have a way to make sure.

    This is just one information that only the Developers can give to us and the sooner the better especially if loyalty gets erased by soulstoning the skill......

    Yes and no.

    Yes because the stone carries the name of the "last" character that put the skill there and no because sometimes skills can hop over several characters thus, over time, losing the information because it got forgotten.

    I will make an example.

    Say that character A was used to build up a whole lot of fishing loyalty. Then the fishing skill is soulstoned and the stone displays A as the character stoning the fishing skill.

    Then the player needs to shuffle around some skills to rearrange character B. The soulstone is needed as empty. Player therefore picks the fishing skill onto character C (A is no longer available for being used for other skills and at 720...).

    Then uses the stone to rearrange skills for character B and stone is emptied. Player stones fishing again on the stone but this time from character C. The stone now carries C as the character which stoned the fishing skill.

    Player then for whatever reason takes a few months break from the game.

    When back, player sees the stone with the fishing skill on and C displayed as the character stoning it. Player wrongly assumes that C is the character holding the fishing loyalty and resumes fishing with C.

    Wrong move, since it was A which was holding all of the fishing loyalty........

    What I am trying to say, is that having fishing loyalty be clearly displayed would solve all issues related to it.

    I do not see why it should be kept as hidden when displaying it would be way, but way better for players.........
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Popps, I'd agree with seeing an exact loyalty figure as you suggested. All I meant was that I'd also accept simple indicators of + and - if the devs don't want to hand us the formula. I find numbers and maths distracting in UO because I'm more of a RPer. So I'm willing to accept alternatives, that's all :)

    It may be possible to test on TC if you're curious. I suspect fishing is just going to be one of the skills you don't want to soulstone around lightly. Partly because of loyalty and partly because the scrolls are hard to acquire. But you could say that about a number of skills at 120.

    I agree. Loyalty shouldn't be erased under any circumstances. In the meantime I'd say don't soulstone fishing unless you're prepared to do some front line testing :)

    Well until loyalty points show, if you're going to do that much soulstoning around, you could always write it in a book and put the book beside your soulstone. I tend to build characters and keep them, but if it was me I'd keep a record for myself with something like fishing loyalty. Much as I do with my pets and tamers.

    I'll say it again, I am agreeing that it's a good idea to display loyalty points fully Popps. I'm just willing to accept something less detailed as an alternative.

    Wenchy
     
  24. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Though it is an assumption, it is very reasonable and solid, since it is based on the existing mechanics of other point based systems in the game.

    It is easily tested. With a fisherman of decent loyalty (i.e. consistently gets 4+ line requests), soulstone his Fishing over to a character that has never done the fishing quests. Complete a handful of quests and note the size of the orders given to the new fisherman (with low loyalty, he should only receive single line requests with the potential for double line orders). Soulstone the Fishing back to the original fisherman and complete more quests to demonstrate that his loyalty has not been reset (he should still consistently get 4+ line requests if his loyalty has not been erased).

    I would gladly test this out, but I do not have another 110 scroll to use on the second fisherman to transfer the skill. I believe this assumption to be valid and very safe.


    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  25. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If so, then how come so many fishermen are worried to soulstone away their fishing ??

    Furthermore, wouldn't it be way more easy than have paying customers have to go out of their way and spend time to test it (and risk loosing their loyalty unless they spend time on test server to train it up to a decent level...) to have an official representative of the company that owns the game tell us how it really works ?

    I mean, they know how it works, how hard is it to come and tell it to us rather than have players have to go out of their way and have to spend time testing it and also go through the possible risk of loosing their loyalty ?

    Yet, the issue still is unresolved and unanswered. I just cannot understand it.
     
  26. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Barry: The reason why this was brought up by me was because some people DID report apparently losing their loyalty on the Fishing forum, and as a result, the rest of us were rather unwilling to risk everything to test.

    Now, if you want to go hog-wild on test and test it by fishing for a month or so on TC (which would probably require either the TC being a duplicate of your shard, or crafting one of the one-use soulstones), have at it. The rest of us will wait for more solid information.
     
  27. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I suggested testing it on TC because that would be less risky than on production shards and would hopefully enable the player to see what would happen. Then if there was a wipe, send in a bug report with steps the devs can reproduce to enable them to fix it.

    I've spent a fair bit of time on quests, so to me it would be worth testing if this happened before I flushed out my loyalty unnecessarily. The alternative is to wait and not soulstone it, and if I was sure I wanted to change Molly's template I'd be straight on TC rather than wait around for bug reports to be submitted by others and then fixed by EAM. I don't think that's the ideal situation, but that's what we've got available to us. In the time that it takes to discuss some of these issues, they could be tested and documented and on the way to getting fixed :)

    I'm guessing that some bug reports may have landed on desks at EAM, but that's not a certainty these days. A lot of players feel things won't be fixed when they're reported so it's also possible that EAM aren't as familiar with this issue as you think they are. It's possible the bug is known and not acted upon too, but I suspect a few more bug reports wouldn't hurt.

    Wenchy
     
  28. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I was merely pointing out that it is testable, because it was being falsely claimed that it is untestable by players. I understand your (and others) unwillingness to test this out. You don't want to risk your built up loyalty, if the system behaves that way. That is totally up to you. Personnally, I do not see it as very risky and would test it myself, if I could on LS. First I need to get the powerscrolls to do so though. Once/If I get an extra 110 PS I will be able to test it, unless we have heard from the DEVs by then (first I need to one for a guildmate, before I can have an extra).

    This is testable on TC (with no risk to my fisherman on LS), but I have already spent months raising my loyalty on LS. I do not want to spend months on TC, just for this one test. So I will wait until I get an extra PS. I don't plan to soulstone my skill from my fisherman an time in the future (he has been my fisherman from the beginning). I will wait for solid information with the rest of you.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  29. popps

    popps Always Present
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    That is my problem, fishing is already taking way too much of my time and simply I do not have the time to also raise loyalty on the test server just to test this out.

    Neither do I want to risk the loyalty it cost me close to a thousand of fishing orders to build up.......

    I'd MUCH rather wish some developer just said it.

    I mean, it is not like they have to spend who knows how much time checking what.

    Supposedly, they know whether loyalty gets erased when soulstoning the fishing skill or whether it stays on the character.

    Therefore, how much time would it take to write it in a post or on the UOHerald ?

    Definately, I think, it would cost much less time to them to write it somewhere, than to any player to test it and have to go through building up loyalty again on the test server.......