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Lumberjacking versus Mining

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sarsmi, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Ok, I finally got off my patootie and did some LJ and mining recently, something I have not done in volume since before the changes to how the resource tiles work.

    An additional change from last year was to double the amount of granite (and sand) given when mining.

    MINING:

    Mining to me is perfect. I spent this weekend mining, my main focus being harvesting large amounts of granite. I mined in fel, as a human and would get drops of 3 or 4 granite a pop. It took only the weekend to refill my 9 stoneware vendors from pitifully empty, and I reduced their prices by a third to a quarter depending on the item - which means faster sales and lower vendor fees over time.

    It was a bit challenging to find valorite (as it should be), but a huge time saver was the use of the prospector's tool. This tool eliminates the "what is it?" frustration, and allows the miner to move along the mountain side (or mine up a cave) quickly. Hitting each node, even if they are not mined out, means they get recycled and will have the chance to spawn something new. So in a month I can do the same route I did before and have the expectation that I will be marking all new nodes.

    Result: mining is fun for me as it never was before

    LUMBERJACKING:

    I used to love LJ! Chop, chop, chop! All day long! Chop, chop, chop while I sing this song! That is no longer the case. The largest frustration with chopping is not the low incidence of woods, it is being unable to identify a tree untill you have chopped it about 8 times in a row, or get a rare wood drop. This frustration, combined with the low incidence of rare woods means that fewer and fewer people will be chopping, which means less turn over of new nodes, which means less actual frostwood to find. It's actually a vicious cycle that means only the LJers with the hardiest of constitutions (or script LJers) will be out there, chopping regularly.

    Another issue directly related to this is the prevalance of lower level woods, compared to their usability. Ingots, even the lowly dull copper, are highly sought after in filling bods. When you mine, you are guaranteed to make a profit or find something you can use. When you chop, a large portion of what you recover is unsalable (regular wood, oak and ash) or will go for very little, and is almost always unusuable in any great quantities. Sure you can turn it into the library, but the point return versus wood weight is poor.

    Result: LJ is no fun for me now.

    Fixing Lumberjacking:

    UO is an older game, and was developed before it became popular (and coding efficient) to make resource harvesting in MMOs similar systems. So while I'd consider it to be a great addition, putting in a "lumberjack woodfinder tool" to work like a prospector's tool, or a "lumberjack's pickaxe" might not be a solution inline with the philosophy of keeping each system in UO individual.

    However it's pretty clear to me that something is needed in order to revive interest in LJ and make it a viable method of resource gathering. Some ideas:

    - wood gathering BODs: X number of wood to fill a deed that will get you a tool (with a limited number of charges) that will tell you if you are near a rare tree node and will lead you to it (think tracking)

    - a wood exchange where you can turn in a certain amount of wood to get back a smaller number of rare wood. Possibly 1/10th of a return as you would get at the library, so 480 regular wood would net you 1 frostwood board. This would be far more useful a system for casual choppers who need the wood for their own personal use, IE bow upgrades.

    - A new skill: Wood identification. This could be trained by chopping, or using the skill on trees, or any number of methods (quests included). This could be adjusted to make it viable but not overpowered; a timer on reuse, or only giving a % chance to tell what kind of tree you are targeting even at GM, etc.

    - Repeatable quests that require you to chop in a variety of random areas, for a quest update. Quest rewards could be a tool to find rare wood, or rare wood its self.
     
  2. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    I miss finding the old "magic" trees that gave resources non-stop. You'd always find a lumberjack near that tree, and if you looked around...you could find their stash of logs they had tried to hide so they could farm even more.

    I miss being able to recall while over burdend with all those logs I'd steal, lol...la
     
  3. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I made a uoa macro that cycles through the woods cutting them to boards, at plain wood it makes arrow shafts instead. I use plenty of those on Siege. Oak I use with my carpentry tool set 'don't color' and use it for making boxes and addons and potion kegs.
     
  4. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    I agree with this idea, but with one major change. I've been saying it for awhile now that the Quests in Heartwood to get the runic fletching kits and saws needs to be changed. Here is how: carpentry and fletching BODS. All at once a use for your "worthless" wood, and a much needed change for those boring and oft abused quests. This way, one could KNOW what reward they will earn when they turn in the BOD and LJs can sell their wood (or use it) and turn a profit. This way, new tools and deco could then be introduced as minor rewards for plain wood, oak and ash SBODs and players would have a way to work towards the runic carp and fletch kits. I personally would like to see a special toolkit that worked like a prospectors tool and and axe that worked like a gargoyles pickaxe (woot to wood based elementals spawning from trees).

    EDIT: I liked this idea so much I finally submitted it as feedback.
     
  5. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Oh there was a slew of those trees right in town in Delucia.. *sigh* those were the days.
     
  6. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    I had a good one on siege near empath abbey, close to GZ but gave about 1k wood. I loved that tree.
     
  7. Flora Green

    Flora Green Guest

    I like it, Sarsmi and I agree with you re mining. Weren't we supposed to get carpentry bods years ago?
     
  8. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Mining

    In respect to making stone furniture I will agree mining is perfect. But all other uses of the skill fall short.

    1) Filling mass BoDs regularly is all but impossible to achieve through mining. Instead I resort to buying stock from NPCs and very rarely mine at all anymore.... which undermines the concept.

    2) With RNG nodes scripting can be done in perfect stealth.

    3) Rare gems are at the mercy of the RNG. It seems they will be used heavily in imbuing. So welcome back scripters when SA pops out.

    suggestions:

    Put it back the way it was and remove rare resources from community collections and remove heartwood quests. Create a tinker BOD system that rewards gems/rare gems instead of gold.


    Lumberjacking:

    The most abused use for the new wood was and still is community collections and to give people a reason to actually go to heartwood.

    Suggetions:

    Replace heartwood quests (specific to carpentry) with a carpentry BoD system.

    Put it back the way it was and remove rare resources from community collections and remove heartwood quests. Distribute heartwood quests rewards among the appropriate BOD reward system.
     
  9. Maggie

    Maggie Guest

    Is there a reason why wood is so much heavier than metal?

    I like the way mining is right now. I get a good mix of ingots/gems. I mine like 30 min every other day.

    I never lumberjack. It just isnt worth the bother imho.

    I would appreciate a reason to pull out my gm lumberjacker.
     
  10. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    Thats funny. I was just thinking about this. I even had a post I was going to make titled "EA: I owe you an apology, you owe me a lumberjack prospectors tool" or something along those lines.

    It is kinda hard to get the amount of iron ingots needed to fill BODs. Even without the use of prospectors tool and garg pickaxes to keep from bumping iron to dull copper.

    All in all, mining is not bad. I am sorry for doubting our Devs.

    Lumberjacking is a different story. The reasons have already been posted. Lets get some tools for lumberjacking, and Ill be happy.

    Borric
     
  11. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Since Dryads like to jump out of tree in Blighted Grove then I would say lets use them as the creature that will carry the axe to bump up wood levels. Dryads seem to spawn in many places so you would have a better chance of finding some.

    Lets call the Axe " Dryad's Axe" for a simple name. It will Bump up any tree to the next wood level. Also will have a chance of spawning a Wood Dryad of the level of wood being chopped. From Oak Dryads to Frostwood Dryads with matching colors.

    I dont think a Pros tool is needed for LJ as there is only 7 wood types.
    Anyway thats what i think
     
  12. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    LOVE THIS IDEA!!
     
  13. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Mining

    In respect to making stone furniture I will agree mining is perfect. But all other uses of the skill fall short.

    1) Filling mass BoDs regularly is all but impossible to achieve through mining. Instead I resort to buying stock from NPCs and very rarely mine at all anymore.... which undermines the concept.


    Not really, for "junk iron" BODs, just use metal scrap from PvM (I have a set number of picnic baskets set up for the dumping of scrap which is then separated and combined into the appropriate non-exceptional deedswhere applicable and the rest that do not combine (or that I do not have deeds for) get resmelted, then that iron can be used to craft the Exceptional Iron items.

    2) With RNG nodes scripting can be done in perfect stealth.

    I'd say the random ore distribution DISFAVORS the scriping technique and favors strip mining. Scripting relied on a guaranteed supply of the needed ore type.

    3) Rare gems are at the mercy of the RNG. It seems they will be used heavily in imbuing. So welcome back scripters when SA pops out.

    Agreed on the gems, they would be a good addition to Ore Elem loot tables IMO.

    Mining right now aside from the special gems is fine. Lumberjacking needs help, right now it's more economical to simply use a vet reward tree stump for wood than to chop... especially for the top 3 types.
     
  14. Nestorius

    Nestorius Guest

    I like the wood exchange idea.
     
  15. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Smelting pvm loot is not mining. It is a suppliment to mining (the same thing I am doing buying NPC stock). So filling mass BoD's regularly from mining is all but impossible to achieve.

    If I need 1000 copper ingots then strip mining technique is the absolute worst possible way to get what I want. It is a constant cycle breaker and distractor: OOO I found a verite vien. I'd better mine this too.. cause it's rare.

    Strip mining favors the mine a few hours/day and typically I'll have what I need over mine a half hour a day and get exactly what I need. Since strip mining favors average over time (which is the basis of scripted mining) how does this system favor honest mining by requiring you work more over automated mining requiring you to script longer with no chance of getting caught on a well wrtten script?


    Mining is not fine. It is so much more of a burden than it was before. You discovered mining thorugh exploring the new features of KR (Mythic sanctioned scripting). I mined for profit legitimately for years before. I can not come close to replicating what I used to be able to stock or the BoD's I used to be able to fill without expending much more time. Causing me to raise my prices or bypass the system all together. I can no longer compete.
     
  16. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Smelting pvm loot is not mining. It is a suppliment to mining (the same thing I am doing buying NPC stock). So filling mass BoD's regularly from mining is all but impossible to achieve.

    Outside of upping the amount of ore you get from a vein completely, or strip mining with a < 65 skill miner, and considering the number of junk BODs you can stockpile, there's no way mining even on its best days could solve the "need more iron" problem which is why "junk items" are the support. It's more the fault of players batch processing in the hundreds if not thousands of items than it is the system of mining and always has been.

    If I need 1000 copper ingots then strip mining technique is the absolute worst possible way to get what I want. It is a constant cycle breaker and distractor: OOO I found a verite vien. I'd better mine this too.. cause it's rare.

    If you're thinking that strip mining is more of a chore, then your mindset is wrong.

    The point of strip mining is NOT to get a certain amount of a certain ore, but to get as much of each and every type possible to build up a stockpile. You don't go into strip mining thinking that "I need 1000 copper"... that's targeted mining (in which case you will probably want to have a combat miner for ore elems so that you can use both the prosp tool and garg pick to best effect).

    Strip mining favors the mine a few hours/day and typically I'll have what I need over mine a half hour a day and get exactly what I need. Since strip mining favors average over time (which is the basis of scripted mining) how does this system favor honest mining by requiring you work more over automated mining requiring you to script longer?

    Not quite. Non-random systems actually favored scripting MUCH more since they could gathere the upper end ores more easily. Time isn't an issue to the scriptor, being able to obtain the targeted resource IS. A script trusts a guarantee of a result over the possibility of one.

    Yes the current system requires one of two mindsets... a little longer to mine (really not so much as long as Fel has double resources and you have the tools and know where to mine), or to stockpile ALL resources until you need them. The Just In Time method is no longer as viable as it used to be. That makes it more difficult scripting or not.

    I can say for certain (at least on LS) that where I mine in Fel used to have several script miners Recall bounce to specific veins... now they haven't been seen since. Why? Their guarantee of certain ores is gone, so they have to change how they mine.

    You discovered mining thorugh exploring the new features of KR (Mythic sanctioned scripting).

    Nice assumption, but entirely INCORRECT. I have had a miner since before there was colored ore to mine. I used to leapfrog ore down the east Britain mountainside to the provided forges "back in the day", and I have mined since (without UOA by the way).

    Yes KR makes mining (especially strip mining) easier when you understand the macro (not "scripting" as the term connotates) system, but I have had a miner for a LONG time before KR came around, so that accusation and ASSumption can be tossed.

    I can no longer compete.

    Then change your system.
     
  17. Ylias Tendris

    Ylias Tendris Adventurer
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    \signed
     
  18. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    You can't recall on Siege :spider:
     
  19. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    Instead of prospectors tool Lumberjacks should have a wood boring drill to bump up the wood type. They should have Wood Elementals use the treefellow graphic for this.
     
  20. I seem to recall a story from old, about a 60K(?) wood heist :D
     
  21. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    random thoughts:

    - carpentry and fletching BOD systems would be welcomed by me
    - what about making Fel colored resources non-random but much, much rarer and giving factions a pure resource spawn of each color somewhere in the world with some sort of "control" mechanic similar to faction towns that must be exterted before they can be accessed by a lumberjack/miner so that they become potential battlegrounds/control points.
    - I'd like to see a little more variety between facets ... lumberjacking in different forests feels like it should have different results such as a different minor resource
    - harvestable mobs: what if there were souped-up "greater treefolk" that were almost blackrock elemental-like in power, but could be targetted by intrepid lumberjacks while still walking for chops of coloured wood? (the trick is giving it a fun AI to play against that is challenging to experienced players but not impossible for novices)
    - wood exchanges already exist in the form of player-vendors (although as a community have we ever really managed to organize ourselves into a proper commodity exchange?)
    - item id skill would love to be buffed to tell us more about resources :)
    - what about mining/lumberjacking BOD systems ... trade in collections of raw materials (common or otherwise) to get tools to get better/faster materials?
     
  22. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I could fill the same amount of BoDs/week I did before the changes (around 5000) strictly through mining. I could fill all of then junk reward B0D's easily by mining what I want when I want it. I can not do that now without buying stock from NPCs. Trust me. I was there.

    If you're thinking that strip mining is less of a chore, then your mindset is wrong.

    The point of strip mining is average over time. You could still do that before the change. Give me a set of runebooks with dedicated unchanging ore spawn and I gauruntee you I can out mine you over any amount of time for any desired end. I can match your "stockpile" and spend much less time doing it. So yes it is more of a chore.

    Ahh yes and when community collections were introduced the demand for upper ores was un naturally spiked. But before that the only real "targeted resource" was shadow iron. Because it could be used to make shadow heaters converting to roughly 35 gps/shadow ingot. 140gps every swing of the axe/shovel (in fel). Given half your time for recalling and various overhead that's around 6mil/23 hrs.

    That "targeted resource" is still very easy to come by for a script. Only now the resource is more abundant at no risk as it is a good probability that you can gather it in any node. A script does NOT trust a guaruntee of a result. Any simple logic you use to sway your outcome be it prospecting tools or garg axes can be automated. Yes scripting yields less, but the gap between honest and script mining is substantially higher

    No, since all nodes are equal they can now afford to mine the most obscure locations. They can keep mass libraries of thousands of spots. They can panic out of any location they see anyone else appear and remove that location from their rotation without missing a beat. They can use the same logic to change drop off banks or plots. They don't need hiding anymore because they can mine any location without ever being seen again.

    My apologies. *ASSumption tossed* If you are on Catskills look me up. I will give you a vendor in a shop with the best location on the shard (one screen away from Luna Gate). You are more than welcome to sell your ingots there as you will have no issues keeping it well stocked at fair prices. I haven't found anyone to replace mine since the change.

    I have abandoned it.
     
  23. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    At first I was Like wow the team go go go. They took the mining/Lj thing too far.

    I hate the new system its borked, oh it may be "working as Intended" but that does not make it any less tedious and borked.

    The Only time I use it or the wood system is when I absolutely have too, its borked.

    The team went way over board with random. Random change once every 3 months would have been fine.

    It borked up all my rune books I spent months/years making.

    I like mining, I dont like mining for all of my time spent in game just to get "the results of working as intended".

    Change it back its borked.

    I have all but stopped using my crafters.
     
  24. Lia

    Lia Guest

    A very fun idea. But, I'd also recommend letting Treefellows have these.
     
  25. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Strip mining, used in conjunction with BOD reward tools, is infinitely less a chore than scripting, when going for a specific metal in the random spawn system. Sorry Gheed, you're WAY wrong on that particular point.

    However, you ARE right that it is difficult to get the proper amounts of ingots through mining alone. I don't mine in Fel, and it's ironically the LOW-END metals that I tend to run low on, not the higher ones.

    Here's some tips for the iron, and a couple for colored metal.

    1. Don't dis the "recycling scrap" method. I filled 20 BODs one night just reusing the ingots gained from smelting the items I got from 50 Paragon chests a friend had my Treasure Hunter pick for him. As he looted the chest, we tossed all the leather in one salvage bag, all the smith metal items in the other - and had to go get more salvage bags for the metal items. It is probably counterproductive to do it for items looted in the field (I'd probably only keep a bag on the ground with the 20-28 ingot items to recycle, then come back for it later with my smith if it was still there after the hunt), but for items that come out of paragon chests, SOS chests and the like, it's good. I do agree that saving up items to put into BODs might be a little too much (not to mention the storage issues.

    2. Respawning NPCs are your friends: Be it the random Gypsy camps' Vagabonds & Iron Workers, or a town's NPCs after Mr. Crimson Dragon leaves, a newly spawned NPC can sell you all the extra iron you need, at about half what most player vendors are charging (starts at 8 per ingot).

    3. Why craft normal?: a book of NPC Blacksmiths, Weaponsmiths and Armorers can fill your normal weapons BODs and iron armor/shield BODs more quickly and cheaply.

    4. Miners are supposed to be tough guys; let them act the part: My GM miner is a 120 Blacksmith, but stones his mining off for Arms Lore when crafting for keeper items. With 86 skill points from equipment and the other 500 natural points of his template, he is a (natural) legendary Mace Fighter, and 466 points spread over Anatomy, Parrying, Healing, Tactics and Chivalry. I mine exclusively with Gargoyle picks anymore, and more often in Ilshenar. I bring back more ingots than I did mining in Fel (back in the old fixed-ore days, certain PKs would camp the best known metal deposits, to stock THEIR ingot vendors) from all the ore elementals I bring up. With my character's template, I do most of the elemental fighting WHILE continuing to mine. There's only a very few things I have to stop for - namely, getting 2 or more Copper or Valorite elementals at the same time, or a single paragon one of these. I can HEAL AND FIGHT my way through anything I dig up, without missing a beat (as I don't use a "x number of digs" macro, but simply "last object, last target", allowing me to hit a bandage macro that doesn't interfere with my mining keystrokes. I've killed as many as FIVE shadow elementals brought up in under 10 swings, while not stopping mining at all (and then, I didn't even heal, either, and was still at half my HP when the last dropped, by which time the vein was empty, and I'd already opened two of the corpses and gotten the ore). This sort of template works well in Fel as well (as it gives you a measure of PK defense, as well as the ability to drop ore elementals to further supplement the doubled ore), but all the PKing I experienced before ore randomization turned me off of Fel Mining (and I found I LIKED hunting for Paragon ore elementals...). It might even give you a chance to take down the occasional scripter or two (especially if you have a Para blow capable weapon, and they recall in beside you)

    5. Use what you're given: I've always used prospectors tools and gargoyle pickaxes - since the ore changes, that use has increased to the point that I (and several of my friends that mine all facets, unlike me) have trouble, even with the BOD turn-in system, staying stocked in the Garg picks. All using crafted tools does, in the long run, is deprive you of 4 ingots you could have used to fill an exceptional iron BOD. 7-8 tools will fill you with ingots, to the point of risking losing ore, by the time the last one runs out, outside Fel. In Fel, the number is more like 4 or 5.

    My shortfalls of ingots tend to be in DC, Shadow, and occasionally Copper (I avoid copper mining with garg picks as much as possible) - and I make up for those usually by trading higher type ingots to my fel-mining friends for them (who use their ingots more to fill contracts with heavy BOD fillers, than filling their own BODs, anymore).

    Mining isn't any more difficult than before - it's just DIFFERENT. Most people that complain about mining are those that refuse to adapt (and probably still hold onto the the buggy whip and wagon manufacturer stock their great-grandfathers left them, in the hope it one day becomes valuable again).

    Lumberjacking, is just well and truly FUBARED by the new system - just a different (and deeper) layer of Hell than it was before randomization.
     
  26. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I want you to explain to me how doing nothing is infinitely more tedious that doing something.

    The only difference between strip mining and scripting is that the nodes are all in a row as opposed to recalling point to point. The logic you use to mine with or without BoD tools is very simple:

    Oh this is iron ore I don't want this.

    This is Verite. If I use a prospector's tool I can get Valorite.

    I have used all the charges on my prospector's tool. I must get another.

    I can't mine the ore I want here. I will move on to the next mining location.

    These things can be broken down into very simple statements and automated. Anything... absolutely ANYTHING you think you can do that scripting can't is a testament to the naive. You can write the code failproof in one evening of honest mining. From then on your "effort" is load and play.
     
  27. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Great idea on the dryad axe. But I have 1 nitpick -

    Dryads and Treefellows are peaceful guardians of nature. They are either part trees or have a deep affinity with trees and plants.

    Why would they carry axes, they definitely won't even dream of chopping wood :D

    It might be better to spawn it on insane dryads instead or add it as a function on Mellisande corroded axe.

    Edit: Just re-read the dryad axe post, poster was referring to the insane dryads in the blighted grove, not the normal ones.
     
  28. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    So.... the new systems forces you to use PvM loot. I don't want to PvM for ingots. Why should I have to? It's the mining skill... right?

    I did things like this before and after the change(buying ingots from NPCs). Nothing new.

    True. I did this a bit before and pretty much exclusively now. Still don't you think this logic is slightly off?:

    NPC: Hail, please fill this bulk order request with 20 normal daggers.

    Gheed: AYE! Please sell me 20 daggers! Now gimme part of my gold back and another BoD. Give me something good this time.

    What the hell kind of game is that?


    Yup do this too. Before and after the change. Nothing new to get you a better yield. Except for maybe the actual choice of being a straight up miner or PvM miner and still being able to compete.

    I always used sturdy tools before the change to now. But I even used the prospector's on high end. Now I have little choice. Because I'm not drinking the kool-aid on the waste your time mining crap you don't need method. Factoring in these tools increases time quite a bit. You folks are looking at it like it takes only a second to use it. But those seconds add up over hours. Cycle breakers...

    I throw out the DC/Shadow BoD's that dont get me powder or combine into a 120/bronze runic. Anything else is just a waste of resources. Especially since shadow heater prices are still way too friggin high. My mind still boggles on that...

    I love these arrogant comparisons. So I hate the changes and that opinion means lack the ability to make it in a new and "improved" world? Well I don't see one example you listed here that would match the efficiency that I was once able to obtain through a good "old fashioned" last object/last target macro combo. Not even that monstrosity of a macro system Dermott uses after he got his degree in KR. But if your comfortble with doubling your efforts so that a bott farm will have to add another VM into the mix.... then I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

    I agree.
     
  29. Sharantyr

    Sharantyr Guest

    My opinion on mining is its more suited for script mining the way it is now. As long as the ore is coming in it doesn't matter what colour it is.

    With the old way you'd get the last small for a LBOD, grab the book to the coloured spots you need and spend an hour getting the ore. This way its easier to buy it from elsewhere.
     
  30. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Excellent idea!

    While I'm against a new skill for finding wood types, Lumberjacks should have that ability inherent in their professional skill. A skill use button (in the skills list), an active skill use of Lumberjacking, should alllow you to identify trees before you use an axe on them. In this way you could wander about identifying lumber without the annoyance of chopping loads of "junk" wood first.

    Also I believe Lumberjacks should have a basic wood hewing ability, that of converting any log type into the corresponding boards. Couple that with reducing board weight to 1/10th of a stone per board and I think we'd have a Lumber system comparable to Mining for ease of use, reward, and popularity.
     
  31. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    t is probably counterproductive to do it for items looted in the field (I'd probably only keep a bag on the ground with the 20-28 ingot items to recycle, then come back for it later with my smith if it was still there after the hunt), but for items that come out of paragon chests, SOS chests and the like, it's good. I do agree that saving up items to put into BODs might be a little too much (not to mention the storage issues.


    On storing looted "junk", yes, the number one issue will be space, so house type and collecting habits do apply here.

    On normal PvM collection of "junk" items, it really depends on what you farm. Personally, I've found that Ant infiltrators do really well (gold gems and "junk"), also there is a small orc fort on the outskirts of Luna, just drag the mage away and the rest make for easy pickings (though the ants are better for a mix of items while the orcs are better for pure ingot production).

    Also consider that the Faction created invasions are EXCELLENT for metal items (If you can find one active). Both the invading mobs have increased loot drops, and the "officer" NPCs especially the higher end ones drop a LOT of items. Even if you don't fight them, during an active invasion you should QUICKLY gather at least a couple of runs worth of junk items just by vulturing "public" corpses of items people don't want.

    If sorting and filling isn't in your realm of options, then smelt everything for the ingots for Exc deeds and use the gold and gold from selling gems from the ants (or chosen mob) to buy the items for the regular deeds (although I would suggest sorting and filling the armor and shield deed with monster loot instead of buying due to prices).

    I want you to explain to me how doing nothing is infinitely more tedious that doing something

    As stated before, it comes down to "targeted" mining vs mining for quantity. Scripting, especially unattended scripting has been based on getting a specific resource. That's why it was done. They scripted to get the "rarer" ore/wood. (Of course rarity means nothing once you know where the spawn spots are)

    Strip mining focuses not on getting a particular ore, but getting as much of everything as possible as quickly as possible, so there's never the need to get XXXX copper because you always HAVE a running supply.

    Obviously, unattended scripting is no "work" for the scriptor, however, from an efficiency standpoint, strip mining and smelting everything as you go works MUCH better under the current system than recall targeted mining.

    While the recall miner has to HOPE he gets a certain ore type (much less probable under this system), the strip miner is wanting EVERY ore. At the end of the night, the time spent recalling gets overtaken by the time smelting, thus allowing the strip miner to hit more spots and end up with more ingots in general and more likely more of the rarer ingots specifically.

    Scripting is less "work", Strip Mining is more efficient and likely to yield higher rewards in the same timeframe under the current system.
     
  32. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    As stated before, Yes strip mining is faster/more efficient than recall mining. It always has been. It doesn't work better under the new system. It works identically to the old system. You didnt get exactly what you wanted before the change and you still don't. That's my point. Thank you.

    But the same simple choices you made after the changes can also be automated outside of tending to your pack animal/beetle to improve your yield.

    And while you may rest comfortably knowing that you beat a scritper in the 2 hour race (if you didn't take potty breaks or eat).... as you always could... The scripter is thinking your the fool knowing he will bury you in 23 hours of no effort. This is as it was before. This is as it is now. Except prices are double now in the name of "rarity".

    Not at all. A scripter can find that rare spot and keep right on it non-stop until it changes. A scripter can replicate your "mine every day and you'll have what you need in general" logic. They just don't typically use animals. A scripter can write a script to do anything they want it to do. And it was always like that.... As stated before. This changes nothing except higher prices for all and less honest miners to satisfy demand.


    That isn't why this was done. Let me refresh your memory with the last official dev response on the subject:

    "Why did you randomize resource spawn in this publish?"
    This change is getting more debate right now than the PvP changes, so here's Wilki with the scoop:

    "The resource change was made for several reasons, but mostly because of the obvious one: "Rare" resources aren't very rare if you can recall to a runebook full of them and collect as many as you want on demand. Besides just not making a whole lot of sense, we felt that this would limit any future systems that might rely on certain resources being more rare than others.

    That said, there seems to be a little confusion about what we actually changed in Pub46. We didn't just do a one-time randomization of resource spots so that players have to create new runebooks of rare resource spawns; instead, as a resource is mined, it has a chance to respawn as something else when it restocks. The actual odds of finding a particular resource type has not been changed, with the exception of the 4 rarest wood types, which will now spawn much more frequently as follows:

    Frostwood has increased from 0.1% to 1%
    Bloodwood has increased from 0.2% to 2%
    Heartwood has increased from 0.3% to 3%
    Yew has increased from 1% to 5%
    Some things that we're considering for the future:

    Making the rarer resources spawn more often in the more dangerous locations
    Adding some chance to get better resources from lower end resource spots (perhaps based on skill)
    Increasing the amount you can get from a resource spot for the rarer resources (for example, if you found a valorite spot, it'd give considerably more ore than an iron spot)"




    See there? Nothing about scripting. No grand plan to make your choice of technuiqe more or less feasable. Scripters just got the better end of the deal by making it harder on everyone. Again:

    ""Rare" resources aren't very rare if you can recall to a runebook full of them and collect as many as you want on demand. Besides just not making a whole lot of sense, we felt that this would limit any future systems that might rely on certain resources being more rare than others."

    In spite of the fact that it took years to fill those books. That those books were upgraded by scouring the mountainside of every new land in every new expansion. Having those books just didn't make sense. But magic mountains and trees that change make a hell of a lot more sense I guess.

    And we are now brimming with future systems that may rely on certain resources being more rare than others. Lets see here... *thinks*.... yes yes.... in two years since the change we have had exactly 0 "future systems".
     
  33. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Gheed - could that be because SA has been delayed "2 years", and said "future systems" were part of the plan for it? Because, that's the type of thing that was hinted at in the 2007 Town Hall I attended.

    BTW, I don't collect junk to smelt - but if someone hands it to me (like 50 level 4-6 paragon chests' worth of metal loot), I'd rather smelt it than toss it - especially since the Salvage bag does it in one step, and gives back an extra ingot per item smelted..

    And, it's the height of ignorance to ignore that the changes were announced saying, "several reasons". When asked elsewhere, the devs DID and still say, repeatedly, that scripters were among the other reasons.

    It was to the point on my shard, and a couple others, that the sellback manipulators & collection donators were driving the ingot prices and availability, to the point where only iron (for the mace & shield scripters), Shadow (for the shadow shield gold scripters), Verite & Valorite (for the library to get talismans) were the ONLY metals being sold. The other metals didn't start reappearing on vendors until after the change was made. Maybe things are different on the high-population shard you play, but on the smaller ones, the for-profit miners (normal AND scripter) had shifted to such a selective supply (using rune books), that even with the low population on my shard, what few Fel Val spots I had marked, and half of my Trammel/Malas spots, tended to be mined out when I got there, until the change. And the scripters had changed almost all of them to other metals, the first night after the randomization went in.

    I went through my books several months after randomization went in, and the only metal that less that 90% changed was Copper (it was at about 50%, with the unchanged areas away from common strip miner paths), because one would have to use a PT & GPA to lift it to Gold, and apparently not many people were willing to do it. I ended up changing most of them, myself, going for gold for a BOD with the tools.

    That said, I wish they hadn't made things AS random as they are; the system should have been a chance, at worse, to shift up or down one step.

    And, there is actually real life precedent for mines switching from one metal's production to another. Silver & gold, for example, were often found in proximity (often mixed) to copper and other metals. Whether a mine was considered a Gold mine, silver Mine or Copper mine, primarily, often depended on the market prices of the various metals, as it was possible for the trace amounts of silver or gold to be worth more per ounce than the copper they were mixed with in the ore was, per ton. While not a perfect analogy, it is a functional one.
     
  34. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Years ago I put forward the idea of 'monkey elementals' spawning on trees that carried special 'monkey wrenches' that lumberjacks could use to move a wood spawn up one level.
    Of course at that time there was only one type of wood so it was like Da Vinci showing his helicopter plans to neanderthals.
     
  35. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    No the devs never admited the change was related to scripting in any way. I remeber very clearly. I was waiting for a post like that from them. I wanted them to explain exactly how they thought this would solve anything. As mining was the only thing I did I was furious about this change. I stalked the boards relentlessly for any hint that scripting was the actual reason. There were none. not one.

    If you can find a quote please let me know. If not then you are just adding your opinion into what they said. You are just telling yourself that dealing with the hassle it worth it because it hurt scripting... even though it hurt honest mining more.

    But what caused the spike in deamnd for resources? What shody expansion was rushed out that decided to prostitute "rare" resources when they were pretty balanced before(except shadow heaters)? And what addition to imbuing do we have that uses them? So far imbuing makes no mention of using rare resources other than rare gems... which can be obtained through the usual RNG'd soloution....anywhere.


    You folks have the impression the scripting generally happens through one account running a simple script put together in an hour or so. On average I'd say you were right. The real economy nuking scripts are much fewer and a hundred times more potent. Well written, well hidden and hardened to these simple solutions. Multi-instanced clients on one machine running 20 (or more) accounts zerging the mountainside discreetly accross multiple shards. Instant smart-phone enabled RDP sessions triggered by any journal entry with a GM tag in it. You have no idea.

    I used to not care about scripting. My stance was not to do it because I didnt want to risk loosing what I had spent so much time and effort to obtain. I used to sit invulnerable to the nerf of the month happily mining my UO time away. Proud of my small but profitable shop with a well stocked vendor... if I had to mine 3k Val/week (at 75 per)... it was a busy week.

    Well now I hate scripters. Every time I go mining and see someone recall/mine/recall I instanly think he is botting and look for ways to mess up his logic. Fighting scripting has become a mini game for me. And I enjoy it much less than actually playing the game.
     
  36. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    I've been running the tough guy miner from the times of the Excavating Pickaxes (same as Goyl Picks). Think a miner macer should get bonus as the sword axer did. Picked up the necro skill till they hosed mining in wraith form. So my miner took the jackers chiv in trade for necro. Jacking in wraith form OK (another fix by plp that don't play the game). And yes more then 90% of my mining is in Ish. Paragon Rare Ore Eli chest worthless to most I find a true game mechanics rare. After theese many years got my second val chest and my luck the same as the first. The gems should of only came off Rare Ore Eli and if any are to be a rare for Imbueding. Then way to reward scripting again.

    Long ago before the rare lumber came about and under my first UOHall user name (got wipe with nifty update) I posted my views on jacking improvement. The goyls can be gotten off stone gargoyles and my thought was that reapers would have the Reaper Hatchet. With Jacking being tied to being a swords man..... the Hatchet with charges would be used to summon a rare wood treefolk. Any rare wood to be had would be fought for and the team could easiely control the amount given per loot off Treefolk. Nope. The Code Mages put in an easy way to script for wood using the same proven DUH HUH method that mining was.
     
  37. Duskofdead

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    Lumberjacking is no fun for me either. It's very easy to get crap woods and very, very, very hard to get any of the rare ones. wandering around a whole continent chopping trees and leaving tons of wood behind on the ground trying to get one of the types I don't already have 148,000 of on my house floor... feels like I might as well be scripting. It's certainly horrifically unexciting and unrewarding for the large amounts of time you need to put into it.

    Honestly, if I have to just repeatedly slap a last object macro over and over while I watch a movie for two hours... what's my motivation to not script? And I'm not talking for large amounts of the good wood either... we're talking enough to make a couple pieces of furniture.