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Main reason why Siege needs arties.

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Vaelix, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    For those of you that do not wish to actually read though these other posts.. I pulled this out of the other post..

    This is exactly why we need arties on Siege.. or even UO in general given the current system of Skills / Items.

    As you all know, I've been playing ATL where insurance exisits..

    However! I am *Very* against Insurance on Siege..

    The *Only* Problem with gear is the ammount of time it requires to get it.. Which is why faction silver is the "Best" System on Siege right now.. It allows us to make powerful suits at less than HALF the time it would otherwise take.

    The only exception to this rule is Imbue.. Now there are people arguing that.. Well Imbue is just fine!!

    Heres why that is.. Wrong.

    Imbuing is meant for 2 Things.

    1. An Extremely Powerful Siege Blessed item.
    2. Average Imbued gear to fill in the slots that Arties cannot go.

    With a Full suit of Imbued gear, we effectively lose Tons of templates.. The only temps that Full Imbued Suits are effective on are Bush Dexxers, Or dexxers that have HCI on their weapons, Without arties mages cannot run the suits to counter the HCI that a 120 Skill and Blessed weapon can give. ( 120 Bush Lightning Strike - 5 Mana, 50% HCI, 20% Crit [35 Damage] | And Hit Lower Defense - -25% DCI )

    It is almost impossible to run 70% DCI (HCI/HLD Immune) with a Pure Imbued suit (No arties) while also running 2/6 Casting with only 1 Hand occuiped.

    15% DCI Blessed weapon or Shield. 1/2 ring with 15% DCI, 1/3 brace with 15% DCI. That is 45% DCI (Which would be 20% After HLD) meaning you would need to run a Weapon & Shield at 15% DCI to get 60% DCI.



    On the Flip side Max HCI only takes 120 Bushy and a Siege blessed weapon with HLD, while being able to hit for 35 20% Of the time at 3-5 Mana Per.

    120 Bushy, Blessed weapon with HLD...
    OR
    Blessed weapon with HLD, 15% HCI. 15% HCI Ring. 15% HCI Brace..

    We take All Arties out of the Mix and caster templates will no longer exist.

    All of that.. is why we do not want *Pure* imbued suits, and Once again.. Real pvpers will know exactly why this is the case, While the "Pretend" pvpers wont see the problem or be able to understand it
     
  2. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    If let´s say, LS were to be de-activated in use against other players, would that lower the need for artifacts?
     
  3. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    A little.. but 15% HCI Weapon, 15% HCI Ring / Brace is still MUCH easier to get than..

    1/2 15% DCI RING , 1/3 15% DCI Brace, 15% DCI Main Hand ( *And* 15% DCI Off hand.. meaning no pots )
     
  4. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    With imbuing, making those items should be fairly easy.

    Can´t you use the EquipLastWeapon macro to drop the weapon to chug and then press it again to re-equip?
     
  5. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Both of those are true.. However the caster will also need 40% LMC and High MR to be effective.. Otherwise they need to kill the dexxer in a Single Mana dump.

    As i said in my main post.. Pure imbued suits certainly make it easier, but in reality A Caster will be overwhelmed without the Arties against a Bush Dexxer, Every single time.

    1 Evasion and the mage will be out of mana, while the dexxer is hitting at 50% HCI for 3 mana at 35+ (Spell Proc) Damage every 5th Hit. (Generally) While being able to heal on the run with confidence and pots..

    While the mage is left to Standing still to Heal with mage or Losing 15% DCI to Chug.
     
  6. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    I agree 100% you got to look at the big picture and Vaelix seems to understand the mechanics behind the game.
     
  7. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Oh and i forgot... To run a 15% DCI Weapon, you'd also need a + 20 Magery Accross the Ring and Brace..

    So.. Your jewels look something like.

    15% DCI
    1/2
    10 Magery.

    15% DCI
    1/3
    10 Magery.

    Vs.

    15% HCI

    15% HCI

    Or.. 120 Bushido and 5 Mana.
     
  8. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *sighs* Remember when you did not have to have a degree in math or statistics to play UO?
     
  9. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    Yes I do remember the times Kelmo but I'm afraid they're long gone. I hate it as much as you. But people saying items don't belong because they're still living in those times and don't understand the effects of what will happen upon the removal of the items will turn this game into a dexer fest.

    If you remove the items then pvp would have to be revamped drastically... And the dev's are not going to put the time or money into doing that.

    So the best thing to do would be make items easier to get creating a more balanced and even playing field. And to turn on Black Rock to make Siege perilous more appealing.
     
  10. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Yeah... I know.
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    Perhaps UO actually intended to have these check and balances exist between mages and dexers??

    If the newer faction armor is what is required to run 70 DCI and still have room for LMC/MR then perhaps it wasn't really intended. Same for dexer suits. I really don't think my dexer gets to max dci/hci without his two-three pieces of faction gear.

    Without faction armor is there really some of these Dreadmare templates out there that are pretty unstoppable??
     
  12. Scuzzlebutt

    Scuzzlebutt Babbling Loonie
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    Bushido lightning strike gives you max capped hci. Put dci on your ring, bracelet and weapon and you are maxed out without arties.
     
  13. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    Sounds like the arms race on Siege Perilous has put Pvpers into a corner called
    Factions and they can not get out. I guess Imbuing is not for those players
    in Factions.

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  14. I haven't played UO for a while. When did they eliminate parry and wrestle as skills?
     
  15. Scuzzlebutt

    Scuzzlebutt Babbling Loonie
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    Players in factions still use imbued items.
     
  16. Tiberius

    Tiberius Babbling Loonie
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    Yes. You could a mage dreadmare deal or archer dread mare deal w/o arties and be devasting in a world without arties.
     
  17. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    To me it look like factions arties are like drugs. Lets get rid of the items and give the users a cold turkey :p
     
  18. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    Lol, I miss those days. It was all + this number or - this number.

    Now it's like: I have a weapon here with this % on it with an addition of this. My opponent has a piece of armor with % plus % so since it is Wednesday I take the common factors and divide with the# of hairs on my right nad (lol none, its shaven!) and I have my chance to get a hit.
     
  19. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    All I remember from those days is:

    I have a vanq axe.

    Concussion blow.

    You are dead.
     
  20. Scuzzlebutt

    Scuzzlebutt Babbling Loonie
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    Check the inside, on the palm.
     
  21. N49ATV

    N49ATV Slightly Crazed
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    those are his pubes
     
  22. Scuzzlebutt

    Scuzzlebutt Babbling Loonie
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    Thanks for explaining my joke to me. :mf_prop:
     
  23. Tiberius

    Tiberius Babbling Loonie
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    Nothing like a good pubic discussion of the issues...
     
  24. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    If thats the case i could still cold turky most of the sige players. So its either run from a cracked out faction noob or a plane jane miss daisy, BUT its still gonna end in run...
     
  25. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Just to add what Dante was saying about the need for items. Also remember that alot of new skills (new as in going back to AOS) require large amounts of mana to cast. So by missing out on the 40 lmc, or close to it and not having +int bonus items...you can only cast a few different spells before your out. Thus driving out those different play styles.
     
  26. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    It's pretty simple people...

    Wake up...

    Realize Ultima Online has expanded and evolved just like any other game out there...

    Learn to cope...

    Adapt even...

    Enjoy.

    OR

    There are a ton of free shards out there with your names on it if you can't do any of the above...
     
  27. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Totally understand that bushido screws over non-bushido players with the max HCI hit for 5 mana cost. I had previously asked the question, what if Bushido was capped at say 20% HCI OR costs 20 mana to use? That would appear to balance it out.

    The other issue I see is SSI. It used to be people got a max swing speed item, such as a dagger or kryss, purely to disrupt mages knowing that they couldn't do much damage with them. Now with 40-50 SSI bows and 30+ SSI heavy weapons, you can practically get max swing speed and still do a ton of damage. To me, this is why most mages are parry mage.
     
  28. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    Fair enough...only problem is the vast amount of people that have taken the last option leaving Siege as a bit of a ghost town.

    Not sure exactly what is the main cause of people becoming inactive or quitting. My guess would be a whole combination of things including faction items, low population, lack of community and lack of good fights.
     
  29. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    Wouldn't that character be the same as basically any tamer in group warfare. Damage output would be awesome but staying alive would be a difficult task for that tamer...or are the requirements so much less for dreadmares over other beast like Greater Dragons. Sorry never really played a tamer before.
     
  30. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    If people quit over items, then they should have been gone when AOS came out.
     
  31. Tiberius

    Tiberius Babbling Loonie
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    Mare cures itself, hard to kill, and can be mounted if it or it's owner is in trouble. Run the temp w/o vet or resist, make good use of jewels, and you can build a very good template around it. Most players use them along with dismount or bolas. I have never played with one myself but have seen several on prodo be pretty deadly with them. You also think twice about dismounting a guy that is riding one.
     
  32. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    I think a lot did quit with AOS launch and item dependancy...and from whats being said here from Siege shard veterans is alot more started to quit when faction items were released
     
  33. I think in general the more Siege resembles production shards, the less reason there is to play it.
     
  34. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    That is exactly the case.

    I'd also appreciate it if someone can spell out exactly why they find it unacceptable to add the increased cursed artie drops IN LIEU of faction arties.

    I understand that faction arties offer a bit higher mods, but you could build basically the same suits, withe the same equipment, minus the buffed mods, creating a pretty even playing field for all, no?
     
  35. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    I believe speedy pointed out why we keep faction arties even with imbuing. Factioneers risk more, so we should get a little extra resist, mr, hci, or whatever.
     
  36. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    You didn't have to be so modest, next time just say, "I have seen Forsaken play his on prodo and he's super deadly with it!" :p:p Cuz' I R!
     
  37. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    I've already stated my main reason several times. I'd like to hope that others are in the same boat as me for; This is an East Coast server, this shard has Prime Time PvP late for an East Coast server. I can't stay up until 10 PM, in hopes to get that one good battle in each day, it's not going to happen.

    So, that stacked with not so many people on server, is just not a good combination for me. I've been on a few times this week, only to see Diablo. The time before that, was Diablo, until Mook and Nadal showed up to gank.

    Not my idea of a good time.
     
  38. Afterglow

    Afterglow Seasoned Veteran
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    omg, UO is not just about PvP, a char doesn't need to be maxed out in gear and skills to have fun in this game and kill critters.
    have pk's use the gear accessable to their victims, but why should PvP folks get their own toys?
    yes, items make the game easier but it's still UO not WoW, some kind of challenge isn't bad and that's why you chose Siege!
     
  39. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    Factioners really only risk more verses other factioners...as in they are attackable anywhere ( really the whole point now to factions ) To be honest, factioners risk less verses non factioners because they have cheaper and better armor ( that is account bound and usually hero/evil dyed imbued gear ) and is far easier to replace with cheap buybacks.
     
  40. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    That doesn't fly. Factioners already have other benefits non-factioners don't. Monster ignore, faction mounts, evil/hero dying equipment, 30 minute bless for items, etc.

    A good many of us have fought hard for balance on Siege. The PBD issue was addressed and created 1 Siege bless for all. The 7th Anniv armor was unblessed to correct the situation between the haves and the have-not imbalance.

    Now we have yet another imbalance with faction arties.
     
  41. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    The biggest Risk (For Reward) That factioners face is .... *Bom Bom Bom*..

    No Guard Zone.

    90% Of all PvP Involving Non Faction Blues will be decided by the guard zone.. As sad as that is.

    And comparing Faction Items to Blessed Arties from a Balance Perspective is just Nuts..

    Blessed Items : 0 Gold to run once you've bought them.
    Factions : 50K - 2m Each death.

    With the Blessed Items i could Die lets say 15 Times and it would cost me nothing in those slots, Due to them being blessed.

    However, lets say im running, Orny, Folded Steel, RBC, Feys, Crim, Cry Ring. 850K in gold Per Death.. If i Die 15 Times, thats roughly 12.7 Million Gold.
     
  42. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    If you guys think they're really going to remove items then you got some major issues, they're apart of the game live with it... As far as turning on stuff not really to much to ask... Why do I feel like i'm always repeating my self???

    The Dev team is already under staffed they're not going to waste time and money on revamping Siege Perilous Sad but true...

    The best you can hope for is something that wouldn't require a lot of work on there part... BLACK ROCK AREA, and make it so you don't have to renounce your youth to see our shard at the log on screen.

    Start of with something small Black Rock, and Log in... Siege will grow after those two changes alone. After Siege's population grows then we can all work together again for something else.
     
  43. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    Dying as a mage is probably somewhere around 1 mil per death. That's cheap? Factions risk more than you seem to account for. As addressed already, no guard zones from other factioneers. Second, the time it takes to get the suit in the first place, and should it be trashed, all that time is gone. Should it be sold back, that's still a mil or so. Stat is a ***** too. Another question for you all: how much is a top tier suit gonna cost with imbuing?
     
  44. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    I think an artied out mage in a non faction suit ( not quite as good stats as faction gear ) would cost him a mill to replace as well. Only difference is someone else can run that suit if they loot it from him. An imbued suit would probally cost a pretty penny as well...Tibs would probally be best to ask that question to.

    What you seem to forget is people join factions to fight. Thats the reason they are in factions...why would they need a bonus in gear to be able to do what they are aiming for?? The only bonus from the gear that they get ( cause all factioners can wear it ) is verses non factioners.
     
  45. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Factioners deserve a little buff on their items. I don't see how someone can say they don't.

    It's like saying "Ok, you went out and hunted a dragon, and I sat in my house, so why do you deserve that 800gp?" Because I am putting myself on the line.

    Now with that being said, I do think faction dying should be abolished.
     
  46. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    Any imbued gear, arties, what have you that a factioneer would run would be faction dyed. The advantage we have is that the suit is just easier to make.

    @kat, the only advantages i see out of that are MI and 30 minute bless. MI is only good if you are a tamer or raiding a spawn. Even then a smart spawning group would get out of the spawn area and regroup then attack. Faction mounts are useful as a solo player, if you are in a guild chances are there's someone who can res your pet. Faction dying is just to be a prick, and with imbuing pretty meaningless as the armor has a use to non-faction players.
     
  47. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    I agree with you bud that factioners should have something different than the normal just for being in factions. On Siege mainly its the hardcore pvper that is in factions. I can recall getting pissed off with blue tamers looting peoples bodies and not being actively participating in the battles ( unless it was a gank on a red factioner )

    I disagree though that hardcore pvpers should have some very nice added armor bonus's over non pvpers or spawners. If it was always just factioner vs factioner than it would be a non issue. But since fights do happen at spawns, idocs and just random encounters it really is a balance issue. Factions is something that is anyone can join at any time. However, people should not be forced into joining just to have some form of a equal playing field.

    And yes sunchicken, even with the faction gear you can kill 99.98 percent of the field with gm gear.
     
  48. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Factioners DO NOT risk more! Factioners join factions BECAUSE they want to be able to fight people anywhere, anytime, anyplace. You can't take the reason you join a faction, the 'reward' and all of a sudden call it a risk.

    If you're in a faction, you can attack any faction member anytime anyplace. If you like pvp, that's your reward.

    If you're in a faction, any faction member can attack you anytime anyplace. If you like pvp, that's your risk.

    Stat loss? If a factioner dies to a non-factioner, do they go through stat-loss? No, so how is there a risk? Because someone in factions could kill you and put you in statloss? That's what you agreed to when you joined factions!

    If faction artifacts could only be used against other faction members, fine then I would agree. OR if a non-faction member could put a faction member in stat loss, that's a risk. But right now, faction vs faction you have a risk/reward balance. Faction vs non-faction, there are all rewards and NO risk.

    If everyone talks about the risk/reward balance on Siege, talk about reds. What's their risk, they can be attacked by anyone, anywhere, and looted and stolen from anywhere. What's their reward?

    Everytime I said non-factions couldn't compete against factions, people said 'ohh well you can put together a cursed arti suit as good as a faction arti suit and compete'. So now when Kat puts up a poll that says fine, lets get rid of faction arties and force everyone to use readily available cursed arties all the factioners back off and say ohh, uhh, well we want to keep our 'rewards' or uhh 'well it's easier to put together a faction suit'. C'mon.

    Haven't you guys figured it out yet?

    There's 10 people on Siege that are die-hard factioners. They ***** that there's never anyone to fight. But yet they want to keep things their way and keep their trammy ass rewards (faction arties only they can use) and yet want other people to agree to fight on their terms.

    There's 100 people on siege that aren't in factions. Some would like to pvp but don't wanna fight by your faction/pvp rules, which is pretty much the only way to fight. That and the people that don't pvp are tired of being worked over by factioners in their decked out arti suits cause we don't have a chance at beating them, yet they deserve to kick our ass anytime they want to because they supposedly 'risk' more than we do.

    Yes, those faction arties/rewards are a godsend to you factioners, it immediately put you on the top of the food chain. But until you get off your high horse and realize that the other 100 people that play Siege are getting pretty damn sick of it, and we're slowly leaving, nothings gonna f'ing change. In two years I betcha the only person that will be left on Siege is Sakie in his damn artied out suit sitting in his tower in the dead center of Luna yelling 'I AM THE KING OF SIEGE'. The next day he'll realize there's no one else left on the damn shard and quit to.
     
  49. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    First, if cursed arties get implemented wtf does it matter, you just don't want someone to have an advantage. Second, heres why pvmers WANT faction arties to stay should that happen: prices. Remember before faction arties, you know... when it cost a mil or so to run fey legs and a spirit or any other useful cursed arty?

    All the hardcore pvpers, the ones with mils that easily outbid the rest could easily get whatever they want. Should faction arties stay, we can get the stuff we want, and it remains that much easier to afford for the rest. Having faction arties and cursed arties IS BALANCE. Haves and a few have nots use faction arties, while the have nots use cursed ones, and the price doesn't skyrocket because the haves outbid everyone.

    You ready for everyone to need to fork out a couple million for a suit to compete? That is what YOU are asking for.
     
  50. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    No one is stopping you from joining factions sir. You are holding yourself back. Also that first paragraph there is pretty funny. If people want to pvp, then they will join factions and fight till they get their fill. What you're describing is being able to "defend" yourself while your pvming or resource gathering. You want your crafter to have a chance against a decked out pvper. That will never happen, but you can keep no dreaming.

    THe only reason this shard is dead is because of the skill gain system. End of story.