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Make death mean something.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Draxous, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    One side effect of auto-renewable insurance is that you can die, res and be right back at it over and over again. Death, for many is nothing more than an inconvenience rather than a real risk


    I think with the imbuing skill (and it's first impression of awesomeness) we should tackle auto-renew item insurance.


    Devs, because I know people cannot stand going all the way with it. How about in every town, and in their ownhomes they need to go there to renew their item insurance.

    Items could be insured for up to 3 deaths. You pay for all 3 at one time. You can replenish at any time, from 0, 1 or even 2 renews, at the place designated in each town.

    It gives people another hub in which to interact and it makes your deaths, mean something... especially in PvP. You die 3 times on the battle field and you start risking losing everything unless you take a break and replenish.

    This is what statloss, had always been intended to be.

    I think that would be one GREAT thing about factions. Making blessed items. And even consider "faction dying" an item to "bless" it? Faction fights should be everywhere. If you want to take advantage of the rewards the system offers, you should subject yourselves to the risks.

    There should be reasons to PvP and they should enhance your game-play, but none of them should take away from your choice not to.

    Make Death mean something!

    20-minute statloss, is no joke. There should be benefits and drawbacks to everything.

    Risk versus Reward.
     
  2. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    How about, NO, to your insurance grief proposal...

    I have a counter-offer to really make death meaningful.

    Reset all murder counts to 0 (but leave in a legacy number, giving your tally before the change, for bragging rights).

    Make it to where only blues in self defense can give counts.

    Then, institute the following

    A percentage chance (equal to your active murder counts, not to exceed 99%) that if you die as a red, and the killer is a blue character (NOT a pet, a wild monster, or even a fellow red or gray), the character is deleted (along with all blessed/insured items). The corpse remains, lootable with the normal restrictions by anyone wanting to risk turning gray.

    It would certainly start leveling the playing field, as people will not want to risk high-end items on the PvP field that would end up deleted -OR they's still use them, but not insure them, so that allies or other characters of theirs could attempt to recover them.

    You could fight, red on red, till the cows come home, and not be afraid of losing your stuff - but it would add a whole new dynamic to champ raids.
     
  3. Beefybone

    Beefybone Visitor

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    No. And frankly, turning OFF auto renew shouldn't be an option. All it leads to are confused newbs losing their crap. Nobody intentionally walks out of town saying "I'll just insure this once and not auto renew it! If I die I'll just manually reclick all my stuff, and if I die twice I'll just lose it! What fun!"

    Also, this reeks of more "plz nerf everyone in the game to balance champ spawn fights".
     
  4. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Why not?

    With the imbuing skill and being able to make suits/weapons that you WANT to make. Why isn't this an appropriate incentive? You can go to fight. If you want to keep playing and keep adding risk, it should be elevated.

    If you lose an item, WHO CARES, you replace it... EASILY, I hope.

    Insurance gives you that. Something you should pay attention to. If your in the bottom of a dungeon in Tram and you died 3 times farming balrons... this time, you risk losing it all unless you go back and replenish yourself.



    This benefits crafters as it will keep them employed. There's too many reasons to do this and you've provided none, to why we should not.


    Come to the table with a real reason :scholar:
     
  5. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Because for all we know about imbuing so far it may Only work on items that have no properties beyond their baseline, and only able to imbue 1 property onto them.

    Makes the skill sound useless, but it sounds more likely than them allowing us to throw whatever we want on anything we chose. Otherwise everyone will have every armor piece covered with 100 total resists, 20lrc, 2 hp regen, etc..
     
  6. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    We should be ablet ot throw whatever we want on anything we choose and we should be able to lose it too.

    Artifacts should come [blessed] and NOT REPAIRABLE.

    Player crafted gear should be great. Better than any artifact.

    Make death mean something. Make players want to hunt for things, in order to imbue them. Make crafters want to craft things in order to equip players. Give people purpose... again.

    Allow for item insurance, but make it for what it was intended. As encouragement to try out your cool toys... not a free pass with no risk to it. It hurt our economy and our players more than anything.

    We need our community back.
     
  7. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    As usual it's all crap until loot and crafting is completely overhauled. Even with imbuing in it's poorly explained form it's not enough to try your idea unless we all want to play in a Siege type environment. Which, in case you didn't know, we don't.

    Death will never mean anything but an inconvenient time. It's doesn't need to and forced incentive for some type of backward ass community motivation is a poor excuse to create a system to drive away the few players we have left.

    Fix crafting and loot first then worry about insurance.
     
  8. Jahira-Tor

    Jahira-Tor Lore Master
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    One question. How do you propose you get home or bank or whatever to renue your insurance once dead? I know i wouldnt want to be rezzed at a spawn if i know my insurance isnt going to be working...
     
  9. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Walk, recall, journey or gate?

    Or if you want to avoid that, head back to town or home alive after your 3rd death.

    Or walk home in monochrome if you want to risk it past 3 deaths.

    Or lose your stuff

    AKA

    Risk versus Reward.


    But, the person was right. Craftring, Monster loots/drops and artifacts all need an overhaul.

    I think this would be the biggest/coolest thing to revitalize Ultima Online. A reason to go to the dungeons. Hey you, even casual players can log on and have fun. Hey even powergamers would love it.

    I know I would.
     
  10. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    You and I both know it'll never happen. Just tell them to come to Siege. If they come, they come. If they don't, they don't.

    :scholar:
     
  11. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest


    Yup, I like it. Get rid of POF too,
     
  12. to OP:


    ummm how about NO!

    Im a PvPer and im not sure if you have pvp'ed lately but about 99% of the time is ganks and on top of that the rez killing stealth archers. Hate to say it kid but this isnt the UO it use to be. Theres almost no honor left in PvP or in fel. Its all about who has the biggest zerg.

    ~Blade
     
  13. Ifful

    Ifful Guest

    The only way I'd support the removal of insurance is if ALL ITEMS ARE BLESSED. Regardless of facet. Loss of items should never be a part of dying in an MMO.
    I am, however, in favor of temporary stat loss.
     
  14. No. This is a game, not a business venture. The ONLY thing we should risk losing from death is time. You don't make players lose items in an item based game, especially since those items are impossible to replace, and at this point, no one knows exactly what imbuing will do. I'm not seeing it able to replace any piece of armor quickly and easily though.
     
  15. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    no
    it's bad enough i loose fame and karma when i die, but not only that i loose insurance money. and have to find someone to rez me and then go get my stuff before it decays or gets looted.
    and my armor and weapons take damage also.
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Arent Seige and Mugen enough for your pallet? I am all for a revamp of the seige ruleset seeing as how you keep asking to implement Seige like systems on prodo shards, but leave the prodo ruleset as it has been the last five years.

    As Basara mentioned, the first thing that comes to my mind with your idea is griefers. If the insurance is only temporary you are giving a select few reason to camp over your dead body or follow around your ghost. Yes it's felluca however giving people more of a reason to drobe is never a good thing...at least not in my mind.

    I dunno...just my thoughts on it. It reeks of Seige...me no like Seige.
     
  17. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    How about you play on SP where there is NO insurance? Death there means something.
     
  18. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I don't think such ideas are even worth mentioning any more.
    ALL "Death penalty" and "Insurance removal" proposals fail because they try to change the results of some problems, instead of removing the problems themselves, by adding a throng of parameters here and there.

    It is right now impossible to remove those problems. It has been ever AOS was established and people got into the items loop.

    What we got now with insurance, items and death actually WORKS and is SIMPLE. Plus most people understand those things and have learned to live with them- or in your case, should have by now. :coco:

    And after you saying "Risk V. Reward" I better not see any "Bring PScrolls to Trammel" thingie again in your future posts.. LOL.
     
  19. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I only support this idea if items are easily reproducible and replacable. Did you read my other post before you hit submit on this post?

    If people can replace (and customize) their gear, readily and if Artifacts are [blessed] and not-repairable...

    What would be the issue with this suggestion?

    There are many people who would benefit.

    And another thing. People were talking about a "sickness" penalty for people who PvP. It's really frustrating, killing the same people over and over and over again and all they do is res, heal up and are right back in the fight 2 SECONDS LATER!!! It's like beating and killing them was pointless!!!

    There should be risks and rewards to everything. The economy is crapola because nothing is leaving it. Casual players can't play this game because you need billions of gold just to buy an average suit.

    And you guys tell me no because you can't handle having to go to a town or your house and renew your insurance before your 4th death?

    Come on... that makes no sense.
     
  20. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    They are going to follow you all the way into town? Or through a moongate?

    You act like I'm asking for no insurance. No, I'm not.

    You are insured for up to 3 deaths. That means you have 3 chances to fight back. You can replenish it in player homes or at a designated place in town.

    Also, if artifacts are blessed and crafters can actually make the gear they want to... what's it matter if you actually lose your items? Your lifes work is not gone.

    Make some sense people. There's absolutely nothing unreasonable about this proposal.
     
  21. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    rofl, good one.
     
  22. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

    get real.
     
  23. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    make it like siege, you can bless ONE (1) item only.
     
  24. The issue is that this is an item based game, and as such items should not be lost. The ONLY way loss would be acceptable is if you were able to replace any piece of armor or weapon with EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and be able to do so immediately. Loss of time is the "risk" for death, and that should be the ONLY one. As far as loss of artifacts.....HELL NO.

    Who are these "many people"?

    Smiths & Tailors? Everybody and their mother, and their cousins, nieces, nephews, and grandkids, has their own crafter, so what's your point?


    There's a simple solution to this, if there MUST be a penalty to PvP death. If you rez at a shrine there's no penalty. If you get rezzed by a player, you get rez sickness of some type.


    There already is, but one of the risks shouldn't be losing items. That's just plain stupid in an item based game.


    The economy is crapola thanks to dupers and scripters, plus 11 years of UO being around with players constantly bringing gold into it. There's no such thing as an economy when you have an unlimited amount of currency.


    This is a load of BS. A casual player doesn't have to buy armor from anyone. a 70's suit can be put together by enhancing your own looted items.




    What makes no sense is the idea. There's no point to it.
     
  25. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I'm not going to piecemeal quote your post. I can make a point in paragraph form.

    Look. That's what I am saying. If people could readily make good gear from monster hunting and player crafting. That would be awesome. A lot of people would benefit. You said the smith/tailor? I say, yes and also the monster hunter, the merchant, the PvPer and the best of all, the casual player.

    Why does everything have to be this draaaaaaaaaaaaawn out grind fest? It doesn't need to be.

    Siege is a great example. No duping, a fluid economy and people who police the scripters by killing them. Everywhere else the economy is a BIG problem. People hardly interact with eachother. You get your items and you are set, you can solo peerless, pvp and never lose what you got, its on cruise control. dooood

    No. It should mean something. If you team wins a fight against the other team and they run away to res and regroup off screen. There should be a risk if you keep coming back and dying.

    Factions would be awesome because you could bless your items and not worry about insurance. Open up faction fighting into Trammel facets and you risk the possibility of getting into a fight anywhere at any time with the bonus of stat loss to add to your woes. The Risk versus the Reward.

    Players craft the best gear. You can insure it or keep crafting more to your liking.

    Artifacts should all be [blessed] and there would be incentive to getting them. They should also be NOT repairable so there is always incentive to go get more.

    This opens whole new doors. This crapola that we have going, you know... chasing the never ending item treadmill is old, outdated and it is killing this game.

    I'd like to think this game is still moving forward.
     
  26. KEEP IT IN SIEGE BLACK!!! hehe, if people want to lose their stuff they have siege and mugen for that leave insurance where it is... and i didnt read the rest of your posts cause they're too long =P
     
  27. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    you can't pvp in a 70's suit.

    that said there are templates that only require modest suits to be powerful. for example a red stealth ninja archer
     
  28. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
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    I agree, that there should be something that happens when you die...

    Maybe a 5 min statloss, if killed in PVP situations?

    Maybe your idea... but there of course is that issue where people, new people, wont understand it and loose there stuff... who knows.

    Maybe something else but YES I agree, there needs to be some penalty when you die.

    Maybe you can only get rezzed by a healer in town, or wandering if you die in PVP?

    I dont know but again I totally agree.
     
  29. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    That's the thing.

    Artifacts (named items) would be [blessed] and unrepairable. If you lose any other types of gear, another player could make it for you.


    The whole idea is to be inclusive, not exclusive with this proposal.

    =P
     
  30. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    have you ever heard about a shard named... Siege perilous?

    try it, maybe you will like it, your ideas are like the siege rules :p
     
  31. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I love Siege =P

    I think Siege is great and should be no item insurance at all.

    I'm not thinking that for the rest of UO. I'm thinking of taking advantage of having item insurance to help employ player professions. Spark player interactions. Balance risk vs reward. Give casual players a reason to play and enjoy UO (lots of people have families and jobs and being left in the dust because of it, rather than enjoying your time spent grinding... is lame.)


    Bring back the community, damnit!

    =[
     
  32. I say we revert all shards to pre-AOS immediately, and call everything fixed.


    :lick:
     
  33. I dont agree with all your ideas but I agree death needs a consequence.

    The game is so candied down its funny reading the responses.

    The best is why dont you go fight without insurance.

    You really shouldnt even have deaths the way it is now. You should just die. SO TO SPEAK and get teleported to your house to revive your str. You dont die.

    Your right its more of a bother then part of the excitement. Ah well what can you do.

    We will get more houses, more garbage a drift yet further away from what made the game great.
     
  34. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    signed
     
  35. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest


    Come on. A UO Moderator trolling?

    Suggesting that a red's character having a chance to be deleted id downright ridiculous and coming from a mod it's downright pathetic. I expect that my post will get "moderated" and I will get an infraction whereas your troll will receive no repurcussions. But seriously, insurance and quite a few other factors, destroyed what was once the UO feel. where once you had risk, now you have "oh darn, I lost 2 mobs worth of gold and a minute of running if that".

    How would your solution "level the playing field". It is nothing more than non pvp rhetoric and bull. It would be nice to see UO do something to return it to the feel it once had of having risk.. and no Siege doesn't count as even it has been "Trammelized". Thieves are worthless, items NEVER break, and your character is never in danger of anything really.

    Please return to following the Rules of Conduct that are so readily thrown in "normal" user's faces and abused by you "moderators".
     
  36. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    thieves arent worthless, we are just under appreciated. We relieve you off your shiny items and gold so you arent robbed.
     
  37. ravenwaves

    ravenwaves Guest

    Apparently, this mod is ignorant, and not aware that reds are among the oldest players and hasn't heard that the real greifers make darn sure they stay blue.

    I am disgusted, and proud that I do not have an active account at this time, lest I have to play the game with such a bigoted person.

    I'd report you for class racism Basara, if only it were possible. I'd ask that you not judge people worthy of "deletion" based on the color of their nametag.

    I expect if I want to see this reply last I'd better screenshot it.
     
  38. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest

    And exactly how are you relieveing someone of their shiney items when they are all insured or blessed I must ask.
     
  39. ravenwaves

    ravenwaves Guest

    all ur mandrake r belong 2 me.
     
  40. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    two things.
    1. Siege thieves do great
    2. You would not believe the stuff you can find uninsured
     
  41. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest

    Sorry, no mandrake either. LRC ftl
     
  42. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    BlacK RaiN, you play on Siege Perilous which has no insurance and has one
    one item Siege Blessing.

    Regardless what you think, No Faction items will ever be Blessed. Remember,
    the Community hates blessed items, so do not expect them to be blessed.

    Changing the rule set on other shards will never change the state of affairs
    on Siege Perilous. Siege Perilous must work out its problems some other way
    than trying to change other shards and hope for some gain due to loss by
    those shards if they implemented a different insurance rule.

    The insurance change you purpose undermines existing strategy on shard with
    insurance. It will ensure that fights will be shorter. But, based on what I have
    seen on Atlantic felucca side battles are short enough with insurance.
    No one does self raise except far from the battlezone. Usually, most ppl give
    up after being killed twice. Let the other shards play as is.

    I am not in favor of Faction items being blessed.

    As for the newly purposed skill Imbued, who says the GMed crafter will make
    items that available to everyone. Why, they may just keep it to themselves and
    their friends. So, not everyone will have access to those items.

    I have lived within the limitations of Siege Perilous, so should you.
    Leave other shards be. <yes, I am repeating this>

    Oh, by the way, sometimes there are risks with no rewards forthcoming!

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  43. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Actually statloss was there to help curb rampant pking and nothing more. It had nothing to do with risk vs reward. If it did, what was the reward? And living through a fight or the loot you got was no where near the reward that compared to the 25% stat loss you incurred if you died.

    I personally only play this game to PvP, and it's bad enough witht he changes since AoS that I have to restock pots. It's not the cost of the pots, just the going to the trouble and big waste of time it is.

    I know you don't want to hear this, but if they changed the game from an item based game, I would be all for a solution similar to yours, or pre-AoS UO.

    And if you recall, back before AoS and insureance, the "Best" weapons in the game were in people banks, rarely ever seen in public due to fear of losing them.

    So in the end I vote NO to your idea.
     
  44. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    So what does gear have to do with this? People have had the ability to EASILY fill suits now (even high high end ones) for some time now. Between the runic kit changes to the dupes, there really is no reason to assume people have a hard time *suiting up*. In addition, with the announcement of imbuing I really dont think we need even more changes to the current system. Need a suit? Ask a guildie...thats just my opinion.

    With regards to your idea, thanks for sharing...but no thanks. I am game with putting a 3 death limit on lets say champ areas and Fel dungeons (upon third death you are teled to chaos or a random world location with a 10 min return wait timer mebbe?) but limiting my insurance to three strikes is bad business.

    Why? Besides griefing you really SHOULD be concerned with the coding necessary to make the changes. Not only would coding have to be added but also much of the coding would have to be changed/removed. As we all know anytime this occurs out comes the bugs. (Especially when working with a 10+ year old client to keep track of your insurance.)

    Leave the changes to expansions, and use the current infrastructure to handle bugs. Everytime that simple idea gets switched around we end up with a borked client. NO TY!
     
  45. So what, you're PvP'ing in a 50's suit? WTF are you saying here? 70's is the best you can get.


    You don't have to have the best of the best to PvP. A halfway decent (MR, LMC, DCI, etc.) suit is all you need to get started. How else do you think all those PvP'rs with full time jobs got to the point where they are today?
     
  46. If the players wanted the game to be like Siege, they'd be playing on Siege. Quit trying to force it on everyone. If they want that ruleset, they'll go there.
     
  47. Demon Killer

    Demon Killer Guest

    horrible idea no way
     
  48. Terrable idea no thanks
     
  49. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    your idea would ruin the game for so many players so no thanks
     
  50. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    So this is your "I don't have anything to say" post?

    I'm not asking for it to be like Siege... at all. This is about balancing risk vs reward in Ultima Online... :scholar:


    So what say you Devs?!?!?