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Make Healing Spells 1/2 Effective on Pets of people who don't have Vet

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Simon Francis, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. Tamers without Vet shouldn't be able to heal pets so easily without the skill.

    Make Spells GHeal, Heal, Close Wounds Etc 1/2 as effective when healing pets.

    Overpowered pets such as dread mares and super dragons allows people to make even more ******** templetes without vet.
     
  2. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    First off, this was proposed in a thread called "Draconi, PvP questions" or something similar. I know you are familiar with the thread because you posted in it. Why not just keep the discussion there?

    Second ... someone PLEASE answer me this: How can a Dread Warhorse be overpowered when you can only GM its skills? So it has more HP than a bake or regular mare. Big deal. I have zero issue killing these on a dexer. It is nowhere NEAR the power of a greater dragon ...
     
  3. InTooDeep

    InTooDeep Guest

    That is not a bad idea as it would not affect tamers who have vent but heal their pets from a distance due to an area of affect that some monsters have. The negative side effect that would occur would be that at a peerless or some similar thing, unless you are a tamer as well, you won't be able to help your tamer friend out as easily with keeping their pet healed. This would address some of the PvP issues surrounding tamers though- and any help in that department would be great.
     
  4. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Tamers without Vet shouldn't be able to own higher level pets.

    Bonding and Commanding should check your Taming, Lore and Vet skills. No real tamer should be able to forego the ability to care for their pets.

    For example, you start dating a girl. She's attracted to you and vice versa, so initially everything is OK. But then she finds out you're a complete bum with no way to care for her. Think she's going to stick around very long?

    Simply redo the Taming Bonding and Control formulas to include Vet. Thus requiring someone to dedicate nearly half their skill points to control the upper level tamables. Leaving less room for adding even more power to an already powerful template.
     
  5. You don't PvP... you are a full time spawner on a dead shard.

    Dread Mares can do up to 60 damage fire breaths against 60 fire resist. (without evil omen)
     
  6. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    this is the link I started that Ailish is talking about.

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=101485

    I think the concern the OP has is that, the tamer jumps off the Dread Warhorse, hits you with a heavy xbow dismount special which will do about 25 to 35 damage while the Dread horse firebreaths you at almost the same time. Now you are down 60HP to 85HP give or take and then inevitably the Dread horse hits you with a poison before you get the heal off.

    It is a very tough combination to defend against and is part of the reason I would like the see the Vet skill tied into owning one of these pets. You can try to para the DH but even if you succeed the owner can just jump on it and ride away. If you poison the DH the owner just casts a cure on it and insta mounts it.

    Keep in mind that this whole time that you are trying to heal yourself, para or poison the pet, it is still dumping spells on you as well as the owner is still hitting you with his bow or whatever damage skill he has.
     
  7. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    I've never been killed by a dread mare :p

    But on another note what does healing a pet have to do with making them over powered? What a bad idea, I mean not only does it affect pvp but it moreso affects pvmers as well.

    If the issue is the pets damage they put out, specifically thier breath attack than do a damage reduction to player targets.

    If the issue is players healing them with magery then by all means do something about it, but it's obviously not.

    I highly doubt the dev team would do anything more than a slight laugh at this suggestion, but maybe I'm wrong with thier late rookie moves!
     
  8. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    Why do people try to rationalize uo with real life scenarios? The second you thwart a purse snatcher with an ex por these arguements will be valid.

    More restrictions on templates goes miles to forcing people into more of a cookie cutter v cookie cutter game. Personally I think the ability for people to create new and efficient templates out of the things that are in the game showcases the uniqueness and appeal of UO.
     
  9. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    What a crappy example LOL.

    So with this whole thing about vet etc. and people bringing IRL into play. Why is it pet owners etc. have to take thier "pets" to veterinary hospitals/clinics irl? I guess they shouldn't own them in the first place right?!
     
  10. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    So asking someone to dedicate 320 skill points to control the strongest tamables in the game is some how creating cookie cutter templates?

    That still leaves you 400 points to be a Bard/Tamer, Mage/Tamer, Warrior/Tamer....etc. Far from being cookie cutter.

    Sounds to me like you're just defending your overpowered PvP template.
     
  11. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Read my reply in post #6..

    The ability to save 120 skill points and put them into something else does make the template a bit more overpowered than most other typical templates.

    Even necro mages who are quite powerful have to stop to cast their spells which give the opponent time to get away, even if they are dismounted by a bola.

    Where as the pet not only does big damage but can also hit you beyond your screen.
     
  12. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    First off I didnt say its THE defining parameter to creating cookie cutters, it does go a long way. Im not defending anything but the versatility of template creation. Stop dying to AI lulz.
     
  13. Vexxed

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    Anytime you Heal your own pet you heal 2x as much as you would if you performed the same action on yourself..... If you find it hard to kill a mage who simply mini heals / G heals himself there's really no way your going to kill his Dread mare if he's healing it bc Ea. Greater heal can do 100+ dmg heals...

    Dread mares ARE OVERPOWERED.... Monster spellcasting (aka.. no time between spells with no range check) is nuts add in a breath weapon which can hit you offscreen and it gets silly. Any mage fighting a Archer / Dread mare guy can simply be dismounted and then trying to do ANYTHING through the mares casting is quite difficult... not to mention that the mare will heal and cure itself not counting what it's owner is doing lol....
    I'd rather fight a Cu-side riding archer than one on a DREAD and Cu's can bleed.... but at least they don't DBL FS. you in the time it takes to cast 2 harms and then follow it up with a 40+ breath attack that hits you from offscreen ....

    Suggestions...

    1) Fix it so that mounting anything UNTOGGLES (turns off) the dismount special... No more super DREAD speedering on screen and instant swinging / dismounting..

    2) Do something about loggin out to INSTANT save your pet... IF you cannot res your pet there should be consequences... as it is killing someones pet is near impossible simply bc you cannot target it till you kill the player and at that point the player has an "AUTO SAVE PET" action... aka logout.. which is LAME.
     
  14. Can you Rez a pet with the rez spell mage or pally ??

    then why should you be able to heal one with spells i cant provo with out music tamers should need vet to heal end of story
     
  15. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I do PvP ... frequently ... and not just on Napa, but on Atlantic, as well. I also kill or assist in killing you often :p (and in case you weren't sure, I DO have other chars with other names, too)

    As for the dread warhorse (not mare, warhorse) I still havent had an issue, killed one at yew gate 2 nights ago something like 3 times before the tamer put it away ... but then I have 70 fire resist to start with. But yes, I am aware of everyone's complaints about firebreath.

    As for the subject, I actually proposed it. Yes, it would be harder for Peerless groups, but it makes sense. As I said before, for years I actually thought that was the way it was.

    There was also a different proposal that pet loyalty be tied to Vet and lacking vet cause more rapid decay of loyalty even without failed commands.
     
  16. Radun

    Radun Guest

    Healing with spells is nowhere near as effective as vet. There's nothing wrong with it. This suggestion is absurd as making healing players with spells require healing skill.
     
  17. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    the better thing is make healing spells based on healing skills...
    higher vet/healing = higher hits healed
    but they must add the pet/char ress with chivalry and magery spells if you have enough vet/heal only :p
     

  18. You couldn't name one of my characters, nice try though. The tamers you fight must either suck or suck and have awful horses case closed.
     
  19. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    IF it really was a concern (I don't think it is), you could make it to where the pet OWNER only heals half damage from greater Heal. Healing with close wounds or heal, or people healing someone else's pet, would heal normally (allowing the common PvM strategy of everyone healing the main pet, when the vets can't keep up with the damage of some high-end mobs.
     
  20. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    And people without alchemy should heal half as much when they use a potion, right?
     
  21. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    As well as why should people without arms lore get the full benefit of that armor their wearing when they don't know a thing about it. This point pretty much summarizes the hypocrisy of the OP's idea.
     
  22. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Assuming you are who I assume you are, Mushasha Horalot comes to mind ...
     
  23. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    EXACTLY!!!!
     
  24. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    It isn't often I see so many flawed assumptions in a single thread, even if that thread is in u.hall.

    First of all, the idea of the OP to halve the effect of healing spells cast on pets by characters without the Veterinary skill. This in order to nerf a few templates used in PvP.
    The flaw in this idea is simple: It won't fix the problem it's designed for. Ok, some guy dismounts you, then sicks his Dread Nightmare on you and even does some damage himself using either spells or arrows. This sounds to me like a pretty one-sided battle which should be over in a matter of seconds, right? So how much healing is actually going on in this battle? Not a whole lot most likely. Then how is this 'solution' going to help in the situation you presented?

    Second, the notion tamers without the Veterinary skill aren't proper tamers. Veterinary is a skill that enhances the profession, much like healing does for a warrior. A warrior can choose different methods to take care of himself though, as can a tamer for his pets.
    I play several tamers myself and indeed, one of them doesn't have the Veterinary skill. Out of all my tamers, for this one I take the most delicate care it has good pets. I spent literally months at Yamandon Point taming Rune Beetles, trying to find that superiour creature to battle by my side. Also, this character takes very good care of it's pets. Caurse if those pets do die, it means big trouble.
    I use Greater Heal and Gift of Life to overcome the lack of Veterinary skill.

    Third, only the effects of Heal are doubled when cast on followers. Not Greater Heal.

    And as a general note: I don't really see why people have so much trouble dealing with pets in PvP. I mean, the pets themselves aren't all that tough. I can solo-tame every one of them, even Greater Dragons. And remember, taming a pet requires you to keep close to it, let it cast spells on you and all this without damaging it. In the case of a Greater Dragon it's on foot aswell.
    While in battle with these creatures you can at the very least run away?
     
  25. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Gee....I wonder why you don't agree that Tamers should be required to have the Vet skill????

    Would the requirement of adding Vet to your particular template make it less powerful? I'm betting that yes it would.

    Also your entire post appears to revolve around PvM, the fixes listed are in relation to the problem of pets in PvP.
     
  26. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    As per the original post, no. If You can make a /

    *Insert gimp template here*

    Then I should be able to make mine any way I see fit, which means you can make any template at any time to counter mine..:sleep2:

    If You can that is. Stop Being Lazy and thinking the game is all about you and your play style alone.

    They put soul stones in the game for a reason/ to change up as needed.






    Nerf Gold Sellers.
     
  27. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    LoL he may be a bottom feeding broker (only reason i lost respect for the guy) but he is and has been one of the best mages and thieves on the pacific shard for quite a few years.
     
  28. Sindris

    Sindris Guest

    I don't see why the playstyle of the majority of players should be sacrificed to satisfy the whims of of the PVP minority. If you are going to insist that vet is needed to cast healing on pets, then I insist that Anatomy be required to cast heals on players. Not required maybe, but with severe penalties if not present.


    Would the requirement of adding anatomy to a lot of templates make them less powerful? I'm betting that, yes, it would.
     
  29. Vexxed

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    Your obviously correct.... the Majority always knows what's BEST.... lol

    If you excel at PvP than you can excel at ANY other system in UO... that minority you so disdain is made up of the most knowledgable,creative, motivated and overall best "go-getters" in the game.
     
  30. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Wut?
     
  31. He means that True PvPers are better and excel at anything in the game. PvPers are better PvMers, PvPers are better Tamers, PvPers are better at doing everything because they have the desire to be better and learn more than PvMers.
     
  32. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I know that.
    The "Wut?" was more... A questioning of the validity of the statement...
     
  33. Vexxed

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    Define "success" in UO...

    1) He who has the most gold ??

    2) He who has the BEST Items??

    3) He who has the most friends??

    4) He for whom it's ALL easy?? (Champs / peerless / events etc)

    5) He who understands it all? Crit chance at 115 Bush? / Cure chance @100 mage & leathal ? / What's the final swing speed of ?? ..... / How do I train this.... etc.

    I have no idea how you might Define Success in UO but to be a good pvper you have to excel at every other aspect of UO first bc if our not the guy who is will have an advantage....

    Anyway...
     
  34. BbqLou

    BbqLou Visitor

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    LOL!!!!! LOL !! !!L !O!OL!LO!L!O!L
     
  35. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    I don't like this idea i have two tamers one with legendary vet the other will have legendary vet eventually but even though it may not affect my tamers much i still don't like this idea sometime it helps me a lot when a mage heals my pet while i am fighting a tough monster. regardless not all tamers can fit vet with there skills so i say no thanks.
     
  36. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Or cheat...
    Or, in the event of failure... Come to forums and accuse of cheating...
    Or complain that the template that beat you is overpowered...

    Either way, a commonality is the need to prove yourself superior. More of a success than everyone else.

    Honestly, I judge success in the game, the ability to enjoy the game, while avoiding the feelings of inadequacy which usually result in things as unseemly as (related) forum drama.
     
  37. Radun

    Radun Guest

    sorry if this comes off as a flame but...
    if you don't know how the game works, and your opponent does... he still has the advantage, even if you speed or script.
    No amount of forum crying will ever truly give anyone an edge in pvp... crying =/= success.

    I agree that you can say "If you're enjoying your play time, you're successful" but no amount of enjoyment you derive from playing with a system in the game will give you an advantage in achieving your goals in regards to that system... unless your only goal is to have as much fun as possible regardless of whether you accomplish anything.
     
  38. Crow

    Crow Guest

    Being at work the next day, thinking to myself I stayed up waaay too late last night having a blast with a group of friends.

    But to the original question...

    While I agree people should have to dedicate a lot to their template, and time put in to said template to be an effective tamer, as well as control high end pets...I don't see how this helps in pvp....which is I assume the crux of this post.

    Usually when I see people drop from pets it's over quick, and usually with them on the run...Rarely is there time for a group to sit and heal a pet during a pvp fight, and the tamer is often very open to attack during that time.

    This would only really hurt peerless, champ boss, and harrower actions.
     
  39. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I don't think it's the casting of heal spells which need to be addressed. First on my list would be preventing a tamer from bonding with a pet unless they had the appropriate level of tame, lore and vet to follow up on their end of the deal. If you want a hybrid tamer template that's fine, but you should only have disposible pets. And we should also ensure if the vet skill is then soulstoned off, pets unbond and the player gets a message stating as much. Then a tamer can hybrid, but risks a lot more if they screw up. I don't think changing the heal spell would really hurt a tamer who uses a greater draggy for PvP.

    Wenchy
     
  40. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    For Fel only:

    I agree on the tamer needing, Taming, Lore and Vet for control of the high end pets and the only way to res, cure and heal it would be through the Vet skill. And 100% agree on the not allowing then to soulstone a skill once its bonded.

    But I would be ok if they let people heal or cure pets without the Vet skill if the Pet was not an agressor. The moment it is told all kill and targeted on someone then the mage trying to heal or cure would get the beneficial acts statement.
     
  41. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think as long as the tamer can heal their pet with spells in support of vet, it would work ok. Otherwise, it's a royal pain staying within vet range of a moving pet during a fight, so it could work badly against a tamer with something other than a greater dragon in combat. But on the other hand it should always be fastest and best to use the vet skill, rather than magery. Whether it's PvP or PvM.

    Wenchy
     
  42. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Even if you needed vet to bond... couldn't you just stone it onto your chr, bond the pet and take it off?

    And having vet on a template wouldn't decrease the power of the template if you do it right.

    I ran a PvP/dismount tamer for awhile until I moved onto something else that was more fun :D

    I had 110lore/taming 100 vet + my needed skills to heal myself, dismount + kill the person I was attacking. It worked really well, if my pet died. I could still rez it up again. Even w/having vet on my template it was just as effective as non vet tamer PvP templates.

    I agree w/those talking about Peerless killing. It'd definately be a lot harder to kill a peerless w/heals from non tamers doing 1/2 as much. But then again, that would increase the # of people needed to fight the peerless, resulting in less uber loot per person as you've got more people to compete with rolling for the loot. It's got it's pros and cons and will have complaints in more than one way.
     
  43. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    My suggestion would be that there is some check in place to drop bonding should the tamer drop their vet skill via soulstone or other means. Otherwise, yes, folks would soulstone to bond pets then go back to hybrid land.

    I realise that you can still be powerful with vet skills, my tamers all have their odd brush with PvP, my main being fully maxed in taming skills and still feeling "strong" with her pets. That's why I'm so supportive of constructive balancing of tamers and their pets. But I see changing pet bonding as an important start in balancing tamers who hybrid their templates. Not the end solution. Because in my view, we should look at requiring real skills for tame/control and bonding first, before we cripple pets of players who play fairly with the real skills as intended.

    I know a lot of tamers would throw a hissy fit and drop their tamers just if someone removed skill + jewellery in taming skills. So to me, it seems logical that if you want to reduce the problem tamers out in the PvP field, you should start with pruning out those without the real skills to power their tamers. Because that will take out more than a few tamers on it's own. Then see who and what is left and balance appropriately. That ensures that the good tamers with real skills aren't overly penalised because of some jumped up hybrid twinks running round Fel screwing over our reputation.

    We also need to remember that while a tamer template is deadly in the hands of a good PvPer, quite a few are going to be relying on various crutches like no vet allowing them to have other skills. While you and I feel we can fight effectively with real skills, some wouldn't cope nearly as well.

    Wenchy
     
  44. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Effective yes, but not as powerful as it could have been if you would have put those 100 skill points into something else besides Vet.
     
  45. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    we all know that threads like this pop up all the time, started by a few peeps.. it's good for a heated discussion, until next week when a new thread talking about the same starts all over again.

    After reading, and sometimes posting, till my eyes start to bleed..

    I've come to believe it's the hybrid of skills that seems to get peeps most upset.. ie.. tamers in stealth mode while dragon targets and kills.. tamers dropping vet skill.. etc. I have to point out.. it's not a tamer specific problem.. but tamers have a great bullseye on their backs from tamer-haters....

    Maybe a great discussion would be to have a thread on skills which should be prohibited from being used in conjunction.. or required skills which must be used in conjuntion... ie.. significant penalties on one skill if skill A is not up to a certain level.

    In many ways, we all know this exists already, tactics & swords, anat & healing...

    anyway .. just a thought for discussion..
     
  46. Rix/\

    Rix/\ Guest

    Do you play a tamer? I do. And without vet I can't keep my 980+hp greater dragon alive with just greater heals having 115 mage and eval and 45% sdi. Regular heal and close wounds? I wouldn't waste time casting those. Your request is a one sided request your asking for a change that will help you in pvp but it's a change that would hurt 90% of the tamers that just pvm.

    Now I understand about the pvp issues and tamers and gimp templates in general. If it isn't tamers then it's mages or samurai's or ninja's or archers. For aslong as I can remember "gimp" templates have been effecting the balance of pvp. I feel that the players that are unable to adapt to change effect the balance also. Your template may have worked good for you in the past but times change content changes therefore you must change/adapt.