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Make no mistake: scamming like is done in UO is illegal in RL.

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by imported_revenant2, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. One of the fallacies that's put forward about scammers in Ultima Online is that, like in real life, dishonest people who lie will come along, and when that happens, the onus is on you to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.

    I've known all along for this not to be true from practical experience. My (quite elderly, now dead) grandmother was taken in by a group of scammers who were staying in her house with her, tending to her needs and things and appearing to befriend her. All the while, they were stealing the money in her bank account in a scam-like way. When it was found out, the people were charged with a *crime* and went to *jail*, and the court ordered the money paid back (which, over time, it was).

    Here's a recent case I just came upon, one which more closely resembles what we see in UO. A direct link to the news story is here:

    http://www.pe.com/localnews/rialto/stories/PE_News_Local_D_video18.3b82d06.html

    A scammer made a phone call to a taco joint and lied, and scammed them out of a bunch of food. Because they actually made a video of themselves doing it, they provided enough evidence of their crime to get charged.

    Now the point being here: The UO perspective is that the behavior itself is, in general, permitted. It's not a case of the UO policy saying that there can never be enough evidence; therefore, there's nothing that can ever be done.

    When someone agrees to sell you item #1, and then puts something up in a trade window and the item looks very similar to the thing you want to buy, then you click your diamond, and the thing that lands in your pack is a much less valuable item #2 - - - this represents a bona-fide scam. In UO, this scammer can even brag about it right afterward, and even in those cases, calling the only possible equivalent of the police (the GMs) does not result in the scammer being dealt with as the thief that he is.

    Have you ever heard a real life scammer try to justify his actions to someone else? I have. They say the same things I hear out of the ones in UO (you can hear the ones in UO if you see a scam happen and confront the scammer personally). They blame the victim and act condescending and try to make you think that the mechanics of the scam itself makes it not qualify as stealing. They are psychoes, and the way that they sound so similar to the UO ones makes me think the UO ones might be the same breed of person.

    UO has done a lot to take tools away from scammers. Trade windows used to be very problematic in this, and much of that is fixed now. Secure house trading via the house sign now exists. They've really done a lot.

    If someone at some point in that effort said "this technical effort replaces the need to deal with the remaining types of scamming", I raise issue with this.

    I'm not saying that every single scam needs to be chased down by the GMs and resolved, but the policy of permitting scammers to boldly and openly scam people is no good. As one really easy example, there are clear-cut cases where a scammer will be standing there doing the behavior, and the behavior is easily verifiable by the GM showing up on a normal player account and appearing to fall for the scam. There are other cases where the scammer will brag about the behavior or engage in other speech with the victim that evidences what happened.

    If GM account privileges are not powerful enough to do a good job at things like this, maybe they should find a way. Maybe pick one senior GM per shift who will deal with the stuff effectively.

    I know that GMs can't rectify all scam incidents and that the GMs have to be careful not to be scammed themselves. But it should still be possible to take a harder line on scammers as the thieves that they are, and the possibility of returning scammed items to their rightful owners should not be out of the question.

    The position that it's acceptable to scam and lie to take money from someone else isn't valid, and this is most evident in the way that justice systems the world over deal with real scammers. Yes it takes human resources to deal with it, but that's the price you pay for getting the job all the way done.
     
  2. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

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    I think scamming, con-games, grifting, stealing, and looting are all parts of the game, and should be. A role-playing game needs to have all the elements of loss as well as those of gain and noteriety.

    The only difference is when a players uses poor game mechanics in a way they weren't meant to be to scam someone else. In your example, poor game mechanics allow the trade window to be used to scam some out of the actual item they wanted. For that instance, the dev's need to fix the hole in their code and the scammer needs to be banned.

    In cases such as the "Valorite Smith Hammer" being sold "cheap" for 20 million gold, I believe that's a legitimate scam since the item can only be confused with an actual Valorite Runic Hammer by someone that isn't paying attention.

    We must all remember: we own nothing in this game. We only pay to play.
     
  3. are you suggesting that if I use the "stealing" skill in UO I should be charged with a real life crime?

    And, you don't own any of the items in game, EA owns it all, so it can't be scammed from you in rl. So legally you would have no case anyways. EA owns it when it is on your character, EA still owns it when it is on the scammer character. No change of rl possesion. No scam.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree with Goron. We dont own anything. We are allowed to sell it. And even if we arent allowed, virtual items get sold.

    Ingame scams are one thing. We dont own them.

    Outside scams with real life money, are a different story. Its a grey area but if you are NOT delivered what you pay for then you have a right to fight back.

    EBAY drop virtual stuff because of the grey area and people scamming.

    Getting scammed in game with no external real life stuff is sadly part of the game. We simply dont own it. All the items can be deleted, made common, or made rare. It is EA that owns the game and all game generated stuff.
     
  5. <blockquote><hr>

    are you suggesting that if I use the "stealing" skill in UO I should be charged with a real life crime?

    And, you don't own any of the items in game, EA owns it all, so it can't be scammed from you in rl. So legally you would have no case anyways. EA owns it when it is on your character, EA still owns it when it is on the scammer character. No change of rl possesion. No scam.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Read this post. Then read it again. If anyone posts any more threads about how scamming in UO is like scamming IRL, link them to this post. End of discussion.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Just to add, the problem for ingame only scamming becomes what is a scam.

    If I get a bolt of cloth and call it ZOG. And someone buys it and its not ZOG or rare but they pay 50k for it. Is it a scam.

    Or does a scam have to do with gold value. Say 20 million like the Valorite Hammer scam where you enhance a hammer. Now is that the scam.

    What if its not for gold. A rare item for something else that turns out to be worthless.

    Im not saying GMS shouldnt address it. Im saying where do you draw the the line.

    I personally could care less about scamming, I hate it, I have lost a lot but I am more bothered by griefing.

    Example: there is a little house on sonoma that is griefed by a player. This player goes to the house and fills 30, 40, 50 barrels and stacks them all around the house. To me that is more a GM issue vs some buying a valorite smiths hammer instead of a valorite runic hammer.
     
  7. <blockquote><hr>

    I think scamming, con-games, grifting, stealing, and looting are all parts of the game, and should be. A role-playing game needs to have all the elements of loss as well as those of gain and noteriety.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    In principle, I agree. The trouble is that if something this volatile is to be allowed, then *all* of the elements need to be there. These elements include some system in which there is the possibility of litigating for your stolen items back. Even the oldest, now-removed implementation of the Stealing skill had this.

    You would be in town. A thief would sneak up and steal. There was a chance that he would be noticed and you could call guards and he would get whacked, and you could loot your stuff back off of him. We all had hiding on our chars back then in an effort to combat thieves who would try to get you at the bank and slip your stuff into his own bank (no skillcap, if you wanted hiding you just worked it). And when someone stole from you outside of town you could choose to fight him, no matter his notoriety (I seem to recall that you could inside of town too, at least at one point).

    There was the possibility that theft victims might not get a stolen item back, but in all cases it remained a controlled system. A mage's spellbook in his base level pack could not be stolen, for example, whereas his black pearl could. That was a UO Dev team choice, not some natural property of the group of pixels you perceive as a spellbook.

    The fact that game mechanics' regulated stealing is a *controlled system* is not trivial. All of the aspects of "stealing" were controllable and balanceable this way.

    Furthermore, these game mechanics rules, depending on the situation, often gave the victim the possibility of doing something after the fact. But as you stand at Luna bank with someone who tricked you in a trade window scam, your hands are tied. The thief (scammer) got to steal from you and it was completely outside of the game mechanics' ability to handle it.

    Human societies always have means to deal with the flip side of this coin. Back in the real life Viking days, there was a court to deal with such issues (Althing). Even if it's your family showing up and kicking the sh*t out of the guy who stole from you, there's always some means in which one can try to deal with it.

    With the important flip-side of this human activity missing from the game right now (and I can't see a good way to code it in), it makes sense for the game policy to disallow those stealing type activities which bypass the stealing elements that the game DOES have mechanics in place for.

    The psycho, repeat scammer-types in UO know they have a free ticket and are enjoying it at EA's expense. I get the sense that the monthly fees that habitual scammers pay are not worth it to EA. The habitual scammers' contribution to general player frustration and disgust will in the long run outweigh what they personally pay. They are in that regard a bit like the big duper or whatever that they banned and left piles of black rubble in place of their houses.

    Checks are blessed. In-game gold in amounts that you cannot fit into your pack in coinage form is not supposed to be stealable, eh?

    <blockquote><hr>

    The only difference is when a players uses poor game mechanics in a way they weren't meant to be to scam someone else. In your example, poor game mechanics allow the trade window to be used to scam some out of the actual item they wanted. For that instance, the dev's need to fix the hole in their code and the scammer needs to be banned.

    In cases such as the "Valorite Smith Hammer" being sold "cheap" for 20 million gold, I believe that's a legitimate scam since the item can only be confused with an actual Valorite Runic Hammer by someone that isn't paying attention.

    We must all remember: we own nothing in this game. We only pay to play.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Every single scam I have seen was done in exactly this way. Considering that, I seem to agree with both of your points =p
     
  8. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    are you suggesting that if I use the "stealing" skill in UO I should be charged with a real life crime?

    And, you don't own any of the items in game, EA owns it all, so it can't be scammed from you in rl. So legally you would have no case anyways. EA owns it when it is on your character, EA still owns it when it is on the scammer character. No change of rl possesion. No scam.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Read this post. Then read it again. If anyone posts any more threads about how scamming in UO is like scamming IRL, link them to this post. End of discussion.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    We don't own the game content but we pay and have right to gain access the content. In other words, we have the right to use the item. Scamming takes the right from us without our consent and cause potentially severe emotion distress. The distress happens in real life. In a sense, scamming is no different from harrassing people through internet chat, telephone, or face to face insult.

    People always say "this is just a game". Sports games are games. Are cheating and scamming tolerarted in those events? Can anyone blantly scam other people with fake sporting cards or other souvenirs? If someone trades a premium seat for your regular seat and later on you found out his ticket is fake, what you are gonna do? Do you just say "oh, I don't own those seats, nor the stadium" and just walk away?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I've seen scammers banned in Free To Play MMOs...Pretty sad when EA won't do it and people pay to play the game.
     
  10. Yewish News

    Yewish News Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I've seen scammers banned in Free To Play MMOs...Pretty sad when EA won't do it and people pay to play the game.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Odd comments considering your username.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I think scamming, con-games, grifting, stealing, and looting are all parts of the game, and should be. A role-playing game needs to have all the elements of loss as well as those of gain and noteriety.

    The only difference is when a players uses poor game mechanics in a way they weren't meant to be to scam someone else. In your example, poor game mechanics allow the trade window to be used to scam some out of the actual item they wanted. For that instance, the dev's need to fix the hole in their code and the scammer needs to be banned.

    In cases such as the "Valorite Smith Hammer" being sold "cheap" for 20 million gold, I believe that's a legitimate scam since the item can only be confused with an actual Valorite Runic Hammer by someone that isn't paying attention.

    We must all remember: we own nothing in this game. We only pay to play.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You mention having these features in a game--I suspect in order to have realism? If in fact it is to have realism where is the realism of a legal system? If, as you say, Scamming-grifting-con games-looting-stealing should be part of the game there should also be some sort of legal and enforcement of the game. Otherwise it does not add realism it adds anarchy.
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    A corporate culture has been in place, almost since day one, in UO that tolerates cheating and scamming. Cheating and scamming are both forms of theft, a scam is a form of cheating, and cheating is a form of scam.

    The devs say that cheating isn't tolerated, but a great deal of scamming is simply ignored, and the gm's will do nothing about it. The devs say that cheating isn't tolerated, but in the five years I have been playing UO I have seen two major actions against cheating, and in both cases they dealt with the tiniest fraction of the actual cheating going on.

    Cheating is so prevalent that on my shard I have been simply unable to find a guild that engages in pvp that doesn't have members that openly cheat, and openly discuss their cheating. None of this is going to change until the devs implement something like Punk Buster, Valve's VAC, or Blizzard's primary anti-cheat functionality. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the decision not to go ahead with the implementation of Punk Buster was one of the single worst decisions that I know of in the history of the game.

    Blizzard employees have the ability in WoW to trace exactly what has happened with any item in the game. You can page a gm and say, I lost such and such, and the gm's will replace it if it disappeared through no fault of the owner. The devs need to implement this kind of functionality in UO. Right now, the gm's simply don't have the tools they need to fight cheaters and scammers, and I see nothing on the horizon that indicates to me that this situation is going to change in the forseeable future.

    It is a situation that is extremely frustrating, and extremely bad for the game.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've seen scammers banned in Free To Play MMOs...Pretty sad when EA won't do it and people pay to play the game.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Odd comments considering your username.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What does his user name have to do with anything? PlayerSkillFTW? I dont see why his comments are odd?
     
  14. <blockquote><hr>

    One of the fallacies that's put forward about scammers in Ultima Online is that, like in real life, dishonest people who lie will come along, and when that happens, the onus is on you to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Did you forget that one of the biggest truths put forward about scamming in Ultima Online is that, unlike in real life... this is just a game!?!?!?.....!

    If you dupe some fool into doing something via a clever in-game way (without exploiting a bug) then kudos!

    I remember one such trick with 3 black bonnets and a regular dye tub being sold as a pure black dye tub. I never bought another another pure black dye tub again without highlighting my mouse over it.


    Thieves, scoundrels, murderers, in this world is ok to be because this is just a game and there is no deep moral fabric that gives its existence any real meaning.


    Why do you make it seem so many parents of UO players really missed the boat on teaching their kids the difference between RL and make-believe?!?!?

    ...
     
  15. [​IMG] you mean that:

    One of the fallacies that's put forward about scammers in Ultima Online is that, like in real life, dishonest people who lie will come along, and when that happens, the onus is on you to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.

    is NOT true? [​IMG]

    In other words ... Like real life, The Onus STAYS on you ... whether in the game or not ...
    to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.



    <center>???

    [​IMG] jeez ... that almost sounds right ...



    [​IMG]</center>
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Cheating is so prevalent that on my shard I have been simply unable to find a guild that engages in pvp that doesn't have members that openly cheat, and openly discuss their cheating."

    That's EXACTLY why i Solo PvP. I have not yet found a large Fel guild that doesn't cheat. I absolutely refuse to join a guild full of cheaters. Why i often end up in fights of 1vs4 or even larger odds against me. Also why i don't have all the powerscrolls and equipment i want/need, even after having played for near 11 years.

    "I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the decision not to go ahead with the implementation of Punk Buster was one of the single worst decisions that I know of in the history of the game."

    My opinion as well.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    If GM account privileges are not powerful enough to do a good job at things like this, maybe they should find a way. Maybe pick one senior GM per shift who will deal with the stuff effectively.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Isn't there only 1 GM per shift now? you think he could manage himself better with a manager title?
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    One of the fallacies that's put forward about scammers in Ultima Online is that, like in real life, dishonest people who lie will come along, and when that happens, the onus is on you to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Did you forget that one of the biggest truths put forward about scamming in Ultima Online is that, unlike in real life... this is just a game!?!?!?.....!

    If you dupe some fool into doing something via a clever in-game way (without exploiting a bug) then kudos!

    I remember one such trick with 3 black bonnets and a regular dye tub being sold as a pure black dye tub. I never bought another another pure black dye tub again without highlighting my mouse over it.


    Thieves, scoundrels, murderers, in this world is ok to be because this is just a game and there is no deep moral fabric that gives its existence any real meaning.


    Why do you make it seem so many parents of UO players really missed the boat on teaching their kids the difference between RL and make-believe?!?!?

    ...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with you UO is about a fantasy world. Is it a world with no laws? Is it a world without justice?

    I see guards which indicate Law enforcement--yet they do nothing about scamming--they used to kill thieves and murderers

    So what you are saying that in the fantasy world of UO scamming-cons-griefing (all of which is illegal in the real world) are all ok and does not have such rules in a fantasy world against them? I seem to read alot about OTHER fantasy worlds having laws and punishment for such actions. Have you seen any advertisement or indications that UO was supposed to be a Land without Laws or Rules? Have you seen anything that advertises UO welcomes the lawless?

    I understand you try to be the type that wants UO to be completely ruleless based upon your post history, but would you really want it to be ruleless or just have rules that you endorse?

    For example would it be against your rules if I showed up for a fight with you with hacked items that allowed me to take no damage and to kill you with one hit? Now if you would not want that you would want rules. But you get to decide what rules to have and what ones not to have?
     
  19. Sheesh.

    Do we really need more rules and people enforcing them?

    Life is stifling enough.

    This is a game and should be treated like one.

    RL and UO have zero in common.

    People should focus on "real" issues in life, if that is what they want.

    UO is a form of entertainment and nothing more.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Now I would/could never scam anyone but I accept scamming as a part of the game. If you do not use your head, you will have to learn it the hard way.
    If you see something very cheap, you maybe should check once more to be sure it really are what you think it is.
    UO is a game with both good and evil. Thieves and murderers are allowed, so are alot kind of scams.

    Just let take an example from Siege, one guy see an other guy with a nice siege blessed wearable item and he ask him "Can I try this on?" If the guy is foolish enough to let him try that on, he deserve to lose it.

    Other example, player A is a guildmaster and the guild do have houses with shared storage. Player B is a thief, he make a new char, seach out player A and tells he is a guildmember but he got hacked and lost his chars and ICQ. Player B ask to be refriended to the guildhouses.
    Sure player B could be a guildmember but Player A need to be careful and not just friend player B. A case as this are easy to check, there will always be some questions player A can ask and only the true guildmember will know.
    If player B success his scam, he will loot the guildhouses.
    Is it illegalt to make this scam? No

    What is illegalt is to use bugs to unbless items and steal them or use bugs to break in to a house (I don't know if this are possible, it's just an example)

    I think the good old playguide say it best:
    <font color=green> Make Friends
    The most important thing for you to do until your character is ready to leave town is get to know other player characters, because:
    1.The best thing about playing in a game with thousands of other people is getting to meet some of them, and
    2.When you do leave town to go adventuring, you don’t want to go alone.
    The most important thing to remember when dealing with other PCs is that they are real people. They have feelings, opinions and freedom of choice. This suggests a few things.
    1.Be friendly. Remember that with a new character most of the people you meet will be tougher than you will. Don’t annoy them.
    2.Don’t be pushy or demanding. Nobody has to help you. It’s up to you to make them want to help you. If you’re lucky you might get somebody to help you get outfitted for your first adventure, but they won’t want to help you if you come across as a whiner or a beggar.
    3.Don’t be too trusting. Not everybody you talk to will have your best interest at heart. Watch out for people who are too eager to get you in a secluded area or out of town — they might be up to no good.
    4.Don’t get mad. If you get tricked, ambushed or set up, don’t take it personally — it’s just roleplaying. Chalk it up to life experience and don’t be fooled the next time. (Of course, if your character wants to start plotting revenge against his or her character that’s fine — just remember it’s all a game.) Likewise, if somebody is being obnoxious, insulting or offensive, don’t let him bait you. Ignore him. (See “Campaign Configuration,” below, for information on the Ignore feature.)
    The above warnings aside, you should find most other players to be just as eager as you are to meet new people, engage in friendly conversation and plan adventures. This cooperation with other players is the true heart of Ultima Online.
    </font color=green>

    UO is not RL, it is a game!
     
  21. <blockquote><hr>


    People always say "this is just a game". Sports games are games. Are cheating and scamming tolerarted in those events?

    [/ QUOTE ]Scamming is not cheating. So the answer to yoru question is no, yes. No, cheating is not allowed. Yes, scamming is allowed.
    <blockquote><hr>

    Can anyone blantly scam other people with fake sporting cards or other souvenirs? If someone trades a premium seat for your regular seat and later on you found out his ticket is fake, what you are gonna do? Do you just say "oh, I don't own those seats, nor the stadium" and just walk away?

    [/ QUOTE ]Neither of those are within the context of the sport though. You just compared two situations that have nothing to do with an isolated sport. Had you instead actualyl stayed on yoru own topic and talked about scamming inside a sport- you would have said something like this:
    In american football, do players try to trick the other team into thinking a blitz is coming? yes. Do they fake a handoff, in an attempt to trick the other team? yes. In soccer do players ever juke one way in an attempt to deceive an opponent? yes. In golf is it against the rules for me to offer bum advice to my opponent? no. In poker- well, poker is basically the scam game of the world.

    See my point? Every sport, or game, has deception and scamming integrated into it. CHEATING is different. I cannot use an exploit in UO just like I cannot switch out cards in poker. But within the context of the game I can use my wit and skill however I please.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Cheating is cheating. Cheating should be ban. Explots are cheating.
    Offering an item at a diffrent price than what others pay is call opertunity. I asked a store clerk/owner of a small store why he was charging $5.50 for a gallon of milk. His reply was something that stuck with me for many years and has helped me run my own mobile businuss. "You are paying for the convenience".

    When the Tranlucant Heart quest first hit the shards, I took every char I had and got a pair. Over 75 questions about them later from other players, I decided to tell others how to get their own.. After many complaints that they did not understand and could I just sell them mine. I charged 300k due to never being able to do that quest again on my chars. Later that day someone that DID know how to get them read me speaking and my price, started screaming I was scamming the players for an item they could get for free. I did not and still do NOT agree. I charge what I want.. Don't like it.. Don't buy.

    On the other hand the trade window exploits and the lack of time on the dev team to not make new art and SHARE old art is the helping hand, the open window, the keys in the ignition. I had someone the other day spamming about selling etty horses for 100k each. In the trade window he put in a stuffy horse. These type of thing ALLOW &amp; PROMOTE cheating. Things can be done. but it's just not "Convenient" to take the time to do so.
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Remember, this is a game.
     
  24. <blockquote><hr>

    Did you forget that one of the biggest truths put forward about scamming in Ultima Online is that, unlike in real life... this is just a game!?!?!?.....!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    <blockquote><hr>

    This is a game and should be treated like one.

    RL and UO have zero in common.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    <blockquote><hr>

    UO is not RL, it is a game!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    <blockquote><hr>

    Remember, this is a game.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    If this perspective had been followed throughout the development of UO, the idea of "well who cares, it's all just a game, let players do just what they feel", UO would have been a terrible pile of crap which would have never gone anywhere and never prospered.

    UO is a special kind of game in that it's a creation/ongoing emulation of a world with a number of fantasy elements injected into it. It requires the combination of two seperate elements in order to work at all. It is #1 an emulation of a real world, and #2 has fantasy elements built into it.

    The "real world" emulation in UO is much more evident than the fantasy elements. Does your human char walk or fly? Does he wear clothes? Does he move faster while riding a horse or on foot? Do you see rocks, trees, mountains, grass? How about roads?

    The emulation exists as a base into which the fantasy elements are injected, and even within the fantasy elements the emulation nature runs deep. For example, dragons are presumed to be reptiles and as such, are susceptible to the reptile superslayer class of weapon. They did not make up a fantasy-based superslayer called dragon-fish-ogrelord slayer and let that loose on the world, they grouped the superslayers based primarily upon what would have been real-world classifications of the fauna.

    The emulation of real world systems within UO is equally strong in regards to human interaction. As one example, people can communicate through speech in the real world. In UO, we do this through typing in-game. WoW does this too, but they have taken this emulation even further - they have segregated the player population into two, basically race-affiliated groups and those groups can NOT communicate through speech. This is a deliberate emulation of two seperate cultures that are supposed to be at war - culture and language differences being real world constructs.

    The human perception of justice and injustice is important in any game that requires this detailed a world emulation. It's a critical issue in the "real" world and this weight carries over into such an emulation. It has always been taken seriously within UO design. It's changed a lot over 10 years as UO dev came to see the outcomes of different systems, and it's worked with different levels of effectiveness at different times, but at no time has it ever been thrown to the birds.

    In real life there is no trade window at all. You could hand someone a check to buy a car and they could run off and cash it without handing you the key or the title. It goes without saying that such a person is prosecutable as the thief that he is. When someone does exactly the same thing in UO, and there's no means to counteract it, it is a violation of a critical aspect of the *emulation* nature of UO. The fantasy game element is not in play at all, in this circumstance.

    Stealing in this context does not refer to the little dot on the UO skill scroll, it refers to the act of stealing from another person. The act within the emulation is the same, regardless of if the game mechanics enabled one person to snatch stuff out of another pack or if someone passed money over with the expectation of making a specific purchase.

    The position that the fantasy (game) nature of UO outweighs the emulation nature in regard to the highly volatile act of stealing is completely bogus.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Give it up and enjoy the beauty of the game. It may remind you about RL but it is not. The rules from RL do not count in UO.
    If someone scam you ingame, blame yourself, you was not careful enough and you lost something.
    The game is ruined enough already, stop making it even more boring and easy.
     
  26. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If this perspective had been followed throughout the development of UO, the idea of "well who cares, it's all just a game, let players do just what they feel", UO would have been a terrible pile of crap which would have never gone anywhere and never prospered.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well said. Exploiters/cheaters/scammers/hackers say "it is just a game" and script/dupe/grief/scam until no one left in the game except themselves.

    No one can enjoy a game that is not governed by moral consequencies, real life or fantacy.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If someone get scammed, it's mainly because they do nothing to protect themself against scammers.

    If you see a valorite hammer for 20k and think it is a valorite runic hammer, you only have yourself to blame. You should know it's to cheap and tjeck the hammer once more.

    Now I can see it's a problem in the Trammel world, where every options for player justice is nerfed out of the game. The sad thing is, alot of this nerf did hit Siege and Felucca too.

    I loved the game back when you needed to keep an eye on a horse seller to be sure you did not buy a horse that would poof a few mins later. I do not need big brothers to keep me safe, I love freedom and the risk.

    The game should had stayed "M", 18 year or older.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Met a guy yesterday.
    I sold him my Tram house for a quick 5 million.

    He came with 2nd characture.

    He said can I give you 3 million upfront, you demolish the house, and Ill place with my other account, and then Ill give you 2 million.

    I thought and asked why do you want to do it that way. It didnt quite make sense to me but I figured why not. He didnt demonstrate any odd behavior, he chatted earlier about what he wants the house for.... So I said sure.

    Yep I was aware I could get ripped. I was aware I could walk off with his 3 million and rip him.

    He gave me three million, I dropped the house, He placed the house, he gave me 2 million.

    It worked out fine. Would you do that?

    Would it have been a scam if I agreed and left with the gold?
    Would it have been a scam if he placed and didnt pay me 2 million?

    Should I call a GM if he lied and didnt pay me?

    Is it a scam because I over or under charged him?

    Was his deal to good? Did I get scammed?


    My point is, well one, there are lots of good charactures out there. But my other point is that in game trades, sales, bait and switch, or what have you is part of the game.

    No your not to blame if you get scammed but it is part of the game.

    If you get ripped for real life stuff that is different. We dont own the property here in the actually game.

    Now hacked accounts, trojans, theft via password stealing. That to me is a problem.

    Cheating with scripts, duping and all that. That is a problem. Running programs that make you PvP invinicible more or less is a problem. Thats what I think GM's and DEVs should focus on.

    Suppose I talk up a PvP weapon as awesome and get 5 million for it. And really its only worth 500k and easily made. Did I scam?

    Hmm. Lots of interesting stuff to debate.
     
  29. In the situation you wrote about had he scammed you and placed the house and not given you 2 mil I'd say you were scammed and it was yoru fault. That is why the house trade window was implemented. Had you taken the 1st 3 mil and not dropped the house I'd say he got scammed and it was his fault. again, house trade window.

    Had you used the house trade window, but he intentionally tricked you and included a 100,000 check instead of a 1,000,000 and he got away with it I would say he scammed you but it was not your fault, since u used the game mechanics properly.

    Alternatively, if he tricked you into thinking there was no house trade window and somehow ripped you off, I'd say it would not be your fault either, because he tricked you....
     
  30. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If, as you say, Scamming-grifting-con games-looting-stealing should be part of the game there should also be some sort of legal and enforcement of the game. Otherwise it does not add realism it adds anarchy.

    [/ QUOTE ]Said so very well!
     
  31. "If someone get scammed, it's mainly because they do nothing to protect themself against scammers."

    If someone gets scammed, it's mainly because someone took it upon themselves to become a scammer.

    It takes a conscious effort to disregard morals and integrity and set up a situation with the sole purpose of ripping someone off.

    The BLAME falls on the scammer. Unfortunately, the CONSEQUENCES fall on the scammed.


    "If you see a valorite hammer for 20k and think it is a valorite runic hammer, you only have yourself to blame. You should know it's to cheap and tjeck the hammer once more."

    Let's take part of this out for examination:

    "you only have yourself to blame"

    So, you're saying the person that intentionally created a Valorite Smith's Hammer, used up all of the uses until it got down to the same as a Valorite Runic Hammer, then put it up on a vendor for 20mil (let's use real examples here, as in the recent example of someone that was doing exactly this, not some measly 20k) is not one bit to blame for setting up a scam?

    I'm sorry, but that logic is VERY faulty. The scam wouldn't happen to begin with if the scammer didn't set it up.


    Yes, some people can take fault at greed or impatience, but NEVER for being scammed. The ONLY person at fault for a scam is the one that set it up.
     
  32. UO is a competitive sport. There is a difference between a game and sport.

    The scams mentioned involve equipment bought/sold usually; items mispriced or mislabeled.

    So, a sports analogy would be selling the other team bad gear, like cheap shoes or bad shoulder pads, rather than faking a blitz. Certainly lacking integrity, illegal in real life, and generally associated with organized crime.

    Fraud, I think is the word.

    OZ
     
  33. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
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    "It's just a game!"

    "Everyone else is doing it."

    "I'm just evening the playing field."

    Those are the three excuses that I have heard just about every cheater and scammer use. All they are are a mantra for feeble morals, laziness, and lack of skill; and all have been enabled and supported by the lack of any meaningful stand against scamming and cheating by the developers and their administrators.

    There is a difference between an "rp" scam, and a scam that exploits poor game design to cheat someone out of gold and items. If you want to role play a liar, cheat and thief, fine, do it within the game mechanics without abusing or exploiting them. Do it in a way that is creative and doesn't break the TOS. Do it in a way that makes it very clear you are role playing, and there is some kind of story line to support your actions.

    If you don't role play your evil character in this way, it is no longer your character being a liar, a thief and a cheat, it is you, the person sitting in front of the computer screen that is being the liar, the thief, and the cheat, and there are no stale, empty excuses that will make your behaviour anything other than what it is, no matter how many people you may con into believing you, or even if you con yourself into believing your own lies (which is far more likely).
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Met a guy yesterday.
    I sold him my Tram house for a quick 5 million.

    He came with 2nd characture.

    He said can I give you 3 million upfront, you demolish the house, and Ill place with my other account, and then Ill give you 2 million.

    I thought and asked why do you want to do it that way. It didnt quite make sense to me but I figured why not. He didnt demonstrate any odd behavior, he chatted earlier about what he wants the house for.... So I said sure.

    Yep I was aware I could get ripped. I was aware I could walk off with his 3 million and rip him.

    He gave me three million, I dropped the house, He placed the house, he gave me 2 million.

    It worked out fine. Would you do that?

    Would it have been a scam if I agreed and left with the gold?
    Would it have been a scam if he placed and didnt pay me 2 million?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sometimes we have to take chances, sometimes we have to trust people.
    Yes I think I would had done it too, I had sold a house on other shard where I first got half of the money on Siege, then tranfered the house and after that got the rest of the money.

    Sure you could had left with the gold but I believe you do have a reputation on your shard so I doubt it was worth it.

    You knew the risk and so did he.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Should I call a GM if he lied and didnt pay me?

    Is it a scam because I over or under charged him?

    Was his deal to good? Did I get scammed?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I doubt calling a gm would help you.

    It would had been a better deal for him to pay the 5 mills for the house. I have no idea why he choose to let you keep the value of the house.

    <blockquote><hr>

    My point is, well one, there are lots of good charactures out there. But my other point is that in game trades, sales, bait and switch, or what have you is part of the game.

    No your not to blame if you get scammed but it is part of the game.

    If you get ripped for real life stuff that is different. We dont own the property here in the actually game.

    Now hacked accounts, trojans, theft via password stealing. That to me is a problem.

    Cheating with scripts, duping and all that. That is a problem. Running programs that make you PvP invinicible more or less is a problem. Thats what I think GM's and DEVs should focus on.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agree

    <blockquote><hr>

    Suppose I talk up a PvP weapon as awesome and get 5 million for it. And really its only worth 500k and easily made. Did I scam?

    Hmm. Lots of interesting stuff to debate.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes you did scam but in a legal way, the buyer should had asked friends for advices before he paid the money for the weapon.
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Connor we will never agree here, we don't want the same game. Scamming was a legal part of the game I got 10 years ago and I loved that game.

    I could not scam anyone but I like it to be a part of the game. I like the game to be wild and risky

    As I said, my old playguide prove iy was a part of the game and it should stay that way.

    <font color=red>4.Don’t get mad. If you get tricked, ambushed or set up, don’t take it personally — it’s just roleplaying. Chalk it up to life experience and don’t be fooled the next time. (Of course, if your character wants to start plotting revenge against his or her character that’s fine — just remember it’s all a game.) </font color=red>
     
  36. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    One of the fallacies that's put forward about scammers in Ultima Online is that, like in real life, dishonest people who lie will come along, and when that happens, the onus is on you to be aware of what's happening and not fall for scammers' tricks.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Did you forget that one of the biggest truths put forward about scamming in Ultima Online is that, unlike in real life... this is just a game!?!?!?.....!

    If you dupe some fool into doing something via a clever in-game way (without exploiting a bug) then kudos!

    I remember one such trick with 3 black bonnets and a regular dye tub being sold as a pure black dye tub. I never bought another another pure black dye tub again without highlighting my mouse over it.


    Thieves, scoundrels, murderers, in this world is ok to be because this is just a game and there is no deep moral fabric that gives its existence any real meaning.


    Why do you make it seem so many parents of UO players really missed the boat on teaching their kids the difference between RL and make-believe?!?!?

    ...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with you UO is about a fantasy world. Is it a world with no laws? Is it a world without justice?

    I see guards which indicate Law enforcement--yet they do nothing about scamming--they used to kill thieves and murderers

    So what you are saying that in the fantasy world of UO scamming-cons-griefing (all of which is illegal in the real world) are all ok and does not have such rules in a fantasy world against them? I seem to read alot about OTHER fantasy worlds having laws and punishment for such actions. Have you seen any advertisement or indications that UO was supposed to be a Land without Laws or Rules? Have you seen anything that advertises UO welcomes the lawless?

    I understand you try to be the type that wants UO to be completely ruleless based upon your post history, but would you really want it to be ruleless or just have rules that you endorse?

    For example would it be against your rules if I showed up for a fight with you with hacked items that allowed me to take no damage and to kill you with one hit? Now if you would not want that you would want rules. But you get to decide what rules to have and what ones not to have?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ok... if you showed up for a fight with me with hacked items... stop right there. You obviously didn't read what I said.

    Your cheating and exploiting the game.

    Which brings me to my next point.

    <blockquote><hr>


    So what you are saying

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is obvious you and everyone else who I read in this thread have no clue what I'm actually saying.

    When you and the others figure out what "a fantasy world of make-believe" means and stop trying to attach your own precepts of RL to it and just accept the fact that whoever designed this game had their own vision of the morality that would envelope this world... you can finally come down from outer space.


    We have morality in Ultima Online... and its called the 8 Virtues. There are also 8 anti-virtues... and they also have a place in this world and should be open to the players in order to explore.

    As long as everyone is playing by the rules of this game (not hacking, using cheats, bugs or 3rd party programs) who cares if they get creative trying to live out one of the anti-virtues such as deceit, shame, wrong and so forth...


    You people really need to get a freaking grip. This is a videogame... period.
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Connor we will never agree here, we don't want the same game. Scamming was a legal part of the game I got 10 years ago and I loved that game.

    I could not scam anyone but I like it to be a part of the game. I like the game to be wild and risky

    As I said, my old playguide prove iy was a part of the game and it should stay that way.

    <font color=red>4.Don’t get mad. If you get tricked, ambushed or set up, don’t take it personally — it’s just roleplaying. Chalk it up to life experience and don’t be fooled the next time. (Of course, if your character wants to start plotting revenge against his or her character that’s fine — just remember it’s all a game.) </font color=red>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The thing that is interesting is if I want to create a real dark characture that uses role play and conning to get gold. I dont have one. But what if I did. Would I be a scammer or roleplaying.

    I agree with you I like the game to be more risky and wild. I dont take. Not my style but I like foiling scams and oh, if a scammer is working me, I will take from him.

    For instance. Someone tried to pull...
    "Here hold my back of 123 single gold coins stacked on each other." He gave me the bag with two really expensive taming pieces of jewelry in it.

    The point was to load my back pack to the max and fool me by giving me like 2 mill in jewelery. To make me trust he is legit.

    He then kept trying to get me to drop my Hat of the Magi into my pack. He said he wanted to look at it and could tell if it was a rare by the way it faced in the trade window.

    Well with a loaded pack you know what would have happened.

    I promplty pulled another whitish wizard hat out of my box and drop it on the ground.

    He was thrilled. He grabbed it.

    I told him to check the hat and color.

    He then asked for his jewelry back.

    Should I have given it to him or kept it?
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The thing that is interesting is if I want to create a real dark characture that uses role play and conning to get gold. I dont have one. But what if I did. Would I be a scammer or roleplaying.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Why can't you be both?

    <blockquote><hr>

    Should I have given it to him or kept it?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I sure would keep his jewelry, he failed to trick you and lost his jewelry [​IMG]
     
  39. Chances are, you would also go to jail if you were to teleport to the roof of the local bank and sit there crafting heating stands or oil cloths too. UO is located in a different world.
     
  40. <blockquote><hr>

    "It's just a game!"

    "Everyone else is doing it."

    "I'm just evening the playing field."

    Those are the three excuses that I have heard just about every cheater and scammer use. All they are are a mantra for feeble morals, laziness, and lack of skill; and all have been enabled and supported by the lack of any meaningful stand against scamming and cheating by the developers and their administrators.

    There is a difference between an "rp" scam, and a scam that exploits poor game design to cheat someone out of gold and items. If you want to role play a liar, cheat and thief, fine, do it within the game mechanics without abusing or exploiting them. Do it in a way that is creative and doesn't break the TOS. Do it in a way that makes it very clear you are role playing, and there is some kind of story line to support your actions.

    If you don't role play your evil character in this way, it is no longer your character being a liar, a thief and a cheat, it is you, the person sitting in front of the computer screen that is being the liar, the thief, and the cheat, and there are no stale, empty excuses that will make your behaviour anything other than what it is, no matter how many people you may con into believing you, or even if you con yourself into believing your own lies (which is far more likely).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You read my mind.