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[Imbuing] Making items for unraveling to Relic Fragments (new thread)

Discussion in 'Craftsman's Data Chest' started by Basara, May 31, 2010.

  1. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The changes from Publish 64 onward have made it impossible to get relics by IMBUING an item, as imbued items now have their intensity multiplied by 0.7 as part of the calculation, and there's another diminishing multiplier if more than 5 properties present.

    That means an imbued item would have to have 5 properties totaling well over 600 points, or more properties going well over 700, for a Gargoyle to unravel them into relics at the Queen's Forge, and I don't think that's possible from Imbuing, then enhancing.


    Currently, the known ways to CRAFT (without imbuing) Relic Fragments require using runic tools and Mondain's Legacy recipes in combination. Even so, only SOME, NOT ALL, of the resulting items will yield relic fragments.

    As this costs a number of ingredients comparable in value to the relics, the Devs appear currently to allow this.

    Tools needed:
    Bronze or Gold Runic Hammers, and Ancient Smith Hammers to insure the items are 100% exceptional
    Recipe: Knight's War Cleaver
    Materials:
    1. Ingots:

    • Iron works well at these hammer levels,
    • DC or Shadow might work, but DC can run into the 6th property penalty multiplier (better for attempts with lower power hammers)
    • Gold can work, especially if the item rolls luck as a runic property, reducing the 7 properties to 6 - but gold is much more expensive than the other "common" metals.
    • The high-end metals (whose names are derived from the "UO Principles") are expensive, but work well due to there being a bonus for items being of a special material type, when unraveling. Thankfully, Valorite has no additional property to add to weapons like it does armor.
    2. The Gems (ML and normal) needed by the recipe.

    Make the items, then unravel items at the queen's forge.

    Why it works:
    Knight's War Cleaver has a 150% property automatically, of a type not normally on a weapon
    Exceptional, if made by a GM Arms Lore smith, will have 80% intensity in Damage Increase. Note that if DI is rolled as a property, this has a negative effect on the item's chance to unravel. Set it aside, and enhance with gold before unraveling if Luck is one of its other properties, as that will raise it to 5 properties.
    Bronze Runic items have a minimum 55% intensity in a set THREE properties - however, one of these can fall into DI.
    Gold Runic items have a minimum intensity of 60% in THREE OR FOUR properties. Again, one of these can end up in DI, but this doesn't hurt as much if it is a 4-property weapon (plus HP Regen).

    So:
    KWC with Bronze Hammer:
    150% from HP Regen 3
    80% from 40% DI
    165% to 300% intensity from three additional properties

    Before factoring in metal multiplier:
    = 395% to 530% if DI not one of the properties
    = 342% to 370% if DI rolled as a property

    a. If you used Shadow Iron, copper or any of the 3 "Principled" metals as your metal, you're pretty much assured of getting relics from every item that doesn't have DI as a property - however, it also makes every item that DOES roll DI as a property near certain to produce only Enchanted essence.
    b. If you used Iron as your metal (not really a bad idea for a 120 skill Gargoyle), you'll only rarely get an item under 400% that didn't roll DI, and you reserve the ability to get those few that didn't muster up, or those that did have DI as a property, and attempt to enhance them with gold or DC to get them into Relic range. Gold will increase the intensity by 70% (to a base of 412% to 440%), but the modifier for a 6th property might lower it back down again, unless one of the other two properties was already Lower Requirements or Luck (in which case it would put the item right in the sweet spot for conversion). Of course, there's also the high chance for breakage, but if you were risk-adverse, you wouldn't be trying for relics this way in the first place.

    KWC with Gold Hammer: This hammer is several times more costlier than a bronze, about 20 times rarer (Bronzes are the best runic hammer given by small BODs, and there's a lot of high-end smalls whose larges aren't worth filling that give bronze hammers), and makes 5 less items.

    150% from HP Regen 3
    80% from 40% DI
    180 to 300% intensity from three additional properties
    OR
    240% to 400% intensity from FOUR additional properties

    = 410% to 545% if 3 properties, and DI not one of the properties, Optimum range for a Gargoyle at the Queen's Forge.
    = 352% to 380% if 3 properties, and DI rolled as a property (see b. above)
    = 470% to 630% if 4 properties, and DI not one of the properties - But item now has 6 properties, and is subject to that reducing multiplier. Will probably still unravel to relic at the Queen's Forge, if not at home.
    = 412% to 547% if 4 properties, and DI rolled as a property. Only 5 properties, as a result. Perfect for a gargoyle using the Queen's Forge.


    Some other recipe items have less potential to be done the same way.

    I. Agapite hammers can be used similarly, but are MUCH more rare and expensive - and will have 6 properties if DI isn't a rolled property.

    II. Copper Hammers can be used, but the chance of 2-property (plus DI and the HP Regen) items too low to produce relics is high, and if made with gold to get an additional properties, will have the 3-property items (And some of the 2-property ones) running headlong into the 6-property penalty. You're better off using the always-3-property bronzes, but of copper's all you got, you can give it a shot.

    III. Most weapon rejects from Verite and Valorite Hammers, crafting weapons that you actually INTEND TO USE (not the recipe ones) will unravel to relics (ESPECIALLY the latter), unless very minimal weapons dragged under the Relic boundary by the modifier for 6 or more properties. Note that it still theoretically possible to get weapons MUCH superior than anything Imbuing can make from Agapite, Verite and Valorite hammers (especially making recipe items, like the Twinkling Scimitar) - it's just that it takes a lot of real-like luck for only desirable properties to land on the weapon, with the low number of uses per hammer.

    Frankly, I think the devs would consider it you doing them a favor if you removed the glut of duped high end runics from the game from using them to make relic fragments - if only they could stop further duping of the items.
     
  2. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Er, would go a long way just to tell use your actual results: relics obtained vs. enchanted essence.

    Guardian Axes work almost just as well as Knight's War Cleavers, and the diamonds are much cheaper.

    for example, I've never gotten an enchanted essence from Knight's War Cleavers with a bronze runic,
    but average about 3 enchanted essences (which would be 1 item) from a bronze runic of Guardian Axes

    Edit: Guardian's axes takes Valorite Ingots.
     
  3. Hildebrand

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    You state:
    "Recipe: Butcher's War Cleaver"
    Yet say to use Knight's War Cleaver. Typo?
     
  4. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    yeah - just fixed that. Though, the Butcher's WC is also a good second choice from having the automatic Slayer type. (100% instead of 150%). It's always good to have multiple items to try, in case you run out of one type of gem.

    Now, if only the items that use Blight were that good, so it would be useful...
     
  5. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    With plain ingots, what percentage of KWCs become relic fragments?
    Since it's 100% with valorite ingots.
     
  6. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The combined weights come out to 345-480% using iron, for the Butcher's, using a bronze runic, and only 4 properties.

    You shouldn't be getting 100% of them back as relic fragments, with valorite. Even the 50% durability increase shouldn't put it 100% - if it's even counted as a property (and I thought that property only affected armor, not weapons, when it comes from the metal).

    Lower Requirements (Dull Copper), on the other hand, should get it close.

    Using a Gold hammer, though, would make nearly 100% of them back as Relics, with iron (25% will have 420 minimum weight, 50% will have a minimum wight in the 360s (and will be very unlikely to be minimum intensity in all properties), and the last 25% will range in the 300-330% intensity range, with 1 property free to have enhancing add a property (and possibly raise a second, if Luck one of the properties, from the metal).
     
  7. Percivalgoh

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    I just did an experiment. I (120 smith with a 15 ash) made 5 true war cleavers (brilliant amber) out of dull copper and 5 out of shadow using a bronze runic. As a gargoyle 120 imbuing at the queens forge standing on one leg and flapping 1 wing and hoping around in a circle I got 6 relics from the dull copper and 8 from the shadow ingots (no essence from either)
     
  8. Mr. Smither1

    Mr. Smither1 Seasoned Veteran
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    You can still make items WITHOUT a runic and get relic frags. A carpenter can make a woodland gordet and imbue it with 18phy 15 energy 16poison and 13fire for a total of about 20 residue(no boura pelts needed). The imbue weight is 324 then you enhance it with bloodwood and that puts it to 540. Unraveled at queen forge with gargoyle and you have a relic fragment. I am pretty sure you can go a bit lower on that and still get a relic frag. The breakage on enhancing with bloodwood is high but if you have a lumberjack you can farm all the wood/bark fragments and residue you need.
     
  9. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Mr. Smither1:

    You can't do that anymore unless something is seriously wrong (and wood items got overlooked).

    Several publishes ago, they made it to where all Imbued items get a 70% modifier to final intensity for unraveling, so that 540 * 70% = 378 intensity, well short of 400.
     
  10. Mr. Smither1

    Mr. Smither1 Seasoned Veteran
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    I just made some to verify that it still works.
     
  11. Chrome

    Chrome Adventurer
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    I tried this way, too.
    If gargoyle, I can get Relic Fragment even by lesser imbue weight.

    [Human or Elf]
    Woodland Armor
    Resist : base + imbue [prop.weight]
    AR : 5 + 13(86%)
    FR : 3 + 10(66%)
    CR : 2
    PR : 3 + 13(86%)
    ER : 2 + 13(86%)

    Enhancing Bloodwood
    Resist : base + (imbue + enhance) [prop.weight]
    AR : 5 + 16[106%]
    FR : 3 + 18[120%]
    CR : 2
    PR : 3 + 16[106%]
    ER : 2 + 16[106%]
    Add HPR 2 [100%]

    Total unravelling intensity with Queens Forge
    0.7 * [(106+120+106+106+100)*1.15 + 0 + 30] = 453

    [Gargoyle]
    Woodland Armor
    Resist : base + imbue [prop.weight]
    AR : 5 + 10(66%)
    FR : 3 + 10(66%)
    CR : 2
    PR : 3 + 13(86%)
    ER : 2 + 13(86%)

    Enhancing Bloodwood
    Resist : base + (imbue + enhance) [prop.weight]
    AR : 5 + 13[86%]
    FR : 3 + 18[120%]
    CR : 2
    PR : 3 + 16[106%]
    ER : 2 + 16[106%]
    Add HPR 2 [100%]

    Total unravelling intensity with Queens Forge
    0.7 * [(86+120+106+106+100)*1.15 + 20 + 30] = 451
     
  12. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Now that the cat is out of the bag I did this since they nerfed unraveling. Still there are other ways and the enhance chance is really low for the woodland armor. The impact is that there are times when it costs greater than 40k per, which is market price. I did get some lucky chances where the price each was around 25k each, but the average is higher.

    I looked back at my spreadsheet since I haven't made relics for awhile and the last enhancing yield was averaging 10%. So the cost per relic at 10k gold ended up averaging 106k gold per relic. These results are after making batches of 100 and getting around 10. I still do remember getting some results with good random successes where the price was less than 40k, but not on average.

    Now is the time for all the other side players to launch the nerf campaign.

    -Lorax

    p.s.
    That isn't the only recipe.
     
  13. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Question:

    Where does that " *1.15 " come from in your math?
     
  14. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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  15. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    But, where did Chrome get his numbers for that? I don't ever remember the Devs mentioning specific bonuses for materials over and above the properties that the material adds to the item, though I might have missed something (didn't start actively working my imbuer until 6 months after SA was released).

    Edit: I found the reference to the bonus changing (Publish 62.3.7 (build version 7 of publish 62.3, which is the build that finally went live), not Publish 63 as Chrome states), but no reference in any of the publishes as to what the values of the bonuses actually are. IIRC, Chrome worked out the bonuses through trial and error, and then that publish changed them from their original values (were straight bonuses before, then multipliers).

    I'd feel more comfortable with an official source for the numbers, instead of a copy of a copy of someone's post elsewhere not on Stratics.
     
  16. Kafka72

    Kafka72 Journeyman
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    It would be more cost effective to make Leafblade of Ease which always has UBWS that's weighted at 1.5 (150%) in the stratics imbuing table. Also you might get some that are actually worth saving since Leafblades are used by some people in PvP and PvM. Leafblade of Ease only take 12 ingots compared to the Knight's War Cleaver that take 18 ingots. Also worth noting are Lightweight Shortbows since they always get the Balanced property that's weighted at 1.5 (150%) in the stratics imbuing table.

    Update: I got on my gargoyle and UBWS is only weighted at 1.4 when I pulled up the imbuing gump. Balanced property is indeed weighted at 1.5. So there's an error in the stratics imbuing table, weighting UBWS property at 1.5 instead of 1.4.
     
  17. The Mule

    The Mule Journeyman
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    This method worked for me, 7/10 of the trial gorgets were enhanced, other 3 were lost. Unraveled to make RF.

    Tried this method. 2/10 made it through the enhancing. Did not produce a RF only 3 Enhance Essence.
     
  18. Lorax_Pacific

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    Are you sure you you are gargoyle and at the queens forge? I didn't confirm the bloodwood method fails after patch 67, but I checked another method that I actually use and it still works.

    -Lorax
     
  19. The Mule

    The Mule Journeyman
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    Yes.... And loyalty is over 10k in case that is your next question. Like I said the first method did work, it was the second that didn't work for me.
     
  20. Lorax_Pacific

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    The Mule, I confirmed the developers nerfed the bloodwood method.

    I made a piece imbued to 7/16/15/16/15 and enhanced with bloodwood. This gives an unravel weight of ~498 to 499 and it yielded 3 essence. Its weird they would nerf this too because this method is only a 10% enhance return at a price each of 10k in materials making a per relic at over 100k.

    Oh well stop telling the developers how UO works or they will nerf the game into oblivion. Their code is bandaids and bubblegum wrappers around other peoples code. This whole nerf episode in a game that is almost a year published is weird. We need devlopers. Do they even have a lumberjack in the game to see how long it takes to get the resources like bloodwood and bark?

    Personally, I think the whole original advertised artifacts will yield relics and then making almost all artifacts give essence to be pretty lame. I burned through about 30 artifacts initially to get relics and that made about two bows and one 50% EP imbued ring. I think they should have made each artifact unravel to 5-10 relics. Also, any change should be listed in a change log.

    -Lorax
     
  21. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Typically, most nerfs of an exploit (which the bloodwood method was probably considered), aren't in the original change logs, but usually edited into the change list days or weeks after the change, as to not tip off those that aren't yet using the exploit that it even exists, by the very mention in the TC/Origin/Worldwide change logs. The reason they usually aren't in the worldwide logs till later is that only rarely are all shards published at once. Being quiet till after everyone is published means that you won't have many opportunist exploiters suddenly jump into it in the day between announcement and implementation. If it was in a worldwide change log, the normal publish method could allow someone on a US West Coast shard that was ignorant of the exploit prior to the announcement might then be able then find out the nature of the exploit, then abuse a exploit for 12-15 hours longer than someone on a Japanese shard or Oceania.
     
  22. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Enhancing armor is an exploit? Or is unraveling armor the exploit?

    -Lorax
     
  23. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Exploit = Unintended use of certain game attributes through lack of foresight by a programmer.

    It doesn't matter whether it was legal or not (after all, many games actually make some of the exploits players find part of established gameplay, while fixing others). What makes an exploit by definition is the "unintended" part. Technically, how PvP evolved in UO could be considered an exploit, as it was definitely NOT the PvP that was intended by Garriott & Koster (who thought that less than 1% of the population would PvP, and that player justice would keep those numbers low - instead, UO made the Wild West look like a Quaker village on its release).

    The flaw being "exploited", in this case, was from the dev that last tweaked the material properties multipliers, failed to take into account Bloodwood's inherent other bonuses, allowing wood armor to be imbued, then enhanced, to circumvent changes that disallowed this as a means of relic fragment creation for all other skills, and most other crafted items.

    The intent of those publishes was to eliminate "imbuing to get relic fragments". One type of item slipped through, and while not forbidden (or actionable), it was still exploiting an unintended mechanics flaw, until such time as it was remedied. Of course, one doesn't publicise such things prior to the fix, to keep every Tom, **** and Harry that didn't know about it (and for those that did, to keep them from stepping up their operations) from going into mass relic-manufacturing mode before the fix.
     
  24. cdavbar

    cdavbar Lore Master
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    100% with valorite? Out of 20 i got 2 relics using val ingots
     
  25. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    It could be that they were caught up in the recent nerf -

    the devs found out about the way to get relics with imbued woodland gorgets (and nerfed it a couple weeks ago), and the KWC method might have been caught in the cleaning up of it.

    Mostly likely, the materials bonus from chrome's calculators got hit with the nerf stick, since it was the materials bonus that made the woodland armor method possible.
     
  26. cdavbar

    cdavbar Lore Master
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    Ok found out i was using the wrong runic stupid me!

    Now getting 18 RF for every 20 KWC's
     
  27. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    there must be some bug, because while I was training up my Artificer, (Human, in my house with a crafted forge) i was finding RFs in my pack. I have a total of 6 now, and have had them since i was around 85 skill.(which according to UOguide is impossible)

    i havent gotten any since.

    explanations?
     
  28. maximusss

    maximusss Guest

    A stupid question,I read from another topic:
    " di from exceptional bonus doesnt count at all (If it only comes from di + arms lore)"

    But here you say 40%DI is just a good 80% intensity when unraveling. Is this KWC method outdated or am I missing something ?
     
  29. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I've never heard that before, and it didn't seem to be true when I made stuff (DI, after all, counts as a property when you imbue, even if it's only from EX with arms lore). Then again, it's been a while since I crafted to unravel.

    Where was this topic?
     
  30. Dingas

    Dingas Guest

    I used a bronze runic and made 35 exceptional KWC's with Dc ingots, came out with 40 relics and 3 enchanted essence, Did this on the weekend, so it still works.
     
  31. Storm

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    Di counts no matter where it comes from!
     
  32. Kim Li of LS

    Kim Li of LS Guest

    I think they may have meant if exc/al di is the only mod..which doesn't unravel at all. (at least last I checked)
     
  33. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Not an overwhelming test, but I found 6 Bronze Runic Hammers and did a little test between Gold and Dull Copper ingots-

    3 w/ Gold
    43 Relic 9 EE
    42 Relic 0 EE
    40 Relic 6 EE

    3 w/ Dull Copper
    45 Relic 0 EE
    43 Relic 2 EE
    43 Relic 1 EE

    Gargoyle w/ Loyalty at Queen's Forge.
     
  34. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    While I was at it.....

    3x Shadow Runic Hammer

    45 Relic*
    34 Essance*

    Made with Gold Ingots.

    *= Average per hammer
     
  35. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Using a Bronze hammer with Gold ingots is
    630 ingots for ~42 Relic Fragments and 5 EE

    Where a Shadow Hammer is:
    810 ingots for ~45 Relic Fragments and 34 EE

    So, 180 more Gold ingots for about the same relic frags and ~30 more EE.....

    I think that while Shadow hammers might be ok just for the cost, Bronze are way more efficent.
     
  36. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    cant even find bronze runic hammers on my shard usually , or they cost a lot

    what is the interaction between the hammer level and the ingots which creates a relic?

    i would be interested in seeing what KWC's could unravel to relics using shadow runics, is gold the only ingot which will work? gold seems pretty easy to get, and who the heck uses gold armor for luck when you can use spined which is mediable

    dc runics are cheap too but they are too valuable for elemental weaps, would not waste them on relics
     
  37. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Did you read my post right before yours?
     
  38. Basara

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    If you're making headgear, you'd want gold because leather caps are FUGLY, and the Circlet types from ML are the only naturally medable smith armor that doesn't require mage armor. Plus, the resists are more spread out (and are slightly better in total) than that of Spined leather.

    There's a greater chance of breaking, but it's worth the effort to get not all the material resists in Physical, and to not look like you're wearing a condom on your head.
     
  39. jgruberman

    jgruberman Guest

    So this says that using a bronze runic hammer and 630 gold ingots, you unraveled 42 frags, and using a shadow runic hammer and 810 gold ingots, you got 45 frags?

    I'm trying to figure out the best way to get relic frags and learning about the whole craft to unravel thing now :)
     
  40. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    That is correct.
     
  41. jgruberman

    jgruberman Guest

    Is this method making profit AND taking into consideration buying the runics/ingots? Obviously, it's cheaper to use your own but just trying to account for all the variables and do my own testing. No point in replicating your tests, so I wanted to test whichever method you didn't.

    But also primarily, which ever method is easiest/profitable. It would be much easier to buy the runics, rather than get them from BODs... but is there even profit in that, or a large enough margin where you wouldn't even want to consider the alternative.
     
  42. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    If you get the hammers from small BODs, instead of larges, BODs are by far the cheaper source for the hammers (80 to 250 ingots to fill the BOD, depending on the armor/shield/helm type; figure 1000 ingots will typically fill 6 smalls). Agapite 20 EX, and Verite 10&15 EX smalls that don't combine, or go to larges that aren't worth the time to fill from having crap rewards, are fairly easy to come by - and when found on sale often are 1/10 or less the price of the hammers they give as rewards.
     
  43. jaashua

    jaashua Guest

    Relic fragments sell for around 50K on Pac. I've found that the ingredients (perfect emeralds and blue diamonds) for the best craftable artifacts cost close to that and are hard to find in large quantities.

    So I recently turned to true war cleavers. They have a weight of only around 110, but they also only take brilliant amber, which comes from lumberjacking and sells for 20-25K each.

    I'm only 85 blacksmithing. When I use a +30 hammer, I get about 22 relic frags from each copper hammer. When I use a +60 hammer, I get around 32. So it's going to be worth it for me to go ahead and GM the skill before proceeding. I found no difference between DC and gold ingots.
     
  44. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    Theres gotta be a fairly clever/efficient way of getting them, there are vendors around with literally 10's of thousands.. one vendor in mag has like 50-60k rf's on it.

    that or theyre just duping.
     
  45. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    AFAIK, the best way is with a runic hammer making like a Knight's War Cleaver.

    I am guessing that they are duping using full deeds.
     
  46. AngelOz

    AngelOz Guest

    Making knights war cleavers... With bronze runic

    Affect of ingot type?

    To have the best chance at relic, Valorite ingots are best right?

    OH... And im only at 110 imbuing, human... Can not use queen forge. You think i can still get relics? Might give it a go tonight, making knights ware cleavers with bronze runic hammer and val ingots and see how it goes.
     
  47. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Dull Copper or Gold.
     
  48. AngelOz

    AngelOz Guest

    Oh. Ok. Will try with DC or Gold ingots. Thought i read about Val ingots being 100% relics... I must have misunderstood. (thanks for the quick reply).

    We'll also see how the unravelling goes with human at 110 imbuing at TerMur public forge.
     
  49. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    You need to add properties, it doesn't care what it's made out of or what the elemental damage is, all unraveling cares about is the number of properties and the intensity of those properties.
     
  50. AngelOz

    AngelOz Guest

    I have relics now.

    Human, 110 imbuing, unravelled at Ter Mur publoc forge

    Bronze Runic using DC ingots

    Was able to make 24 Knight War Cleavers with the emeralds i had, got 23 Relic frags.

    Sweet! Will see what else i can do with the other gems...