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Mana vamp/ eval mage...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sir Morder, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    so now the only way to counter a stealther is with an eval mage. How stupid. Better to just put in a delay on the smoke/egg bomb and be done with it. Everyone just needs to hang up their dexxors and dust off thee ol' mage cap. What a rediculous way of thinking Uhallers have.
     
  2. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    OH NOES!!!!

    IBTL...:next:
     
  3. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Excepting playing a mage in stat-loss sucks. I guess you could just play a straight-mage with a crystalline ring, haha. But eh, as long as people can make trap boxes, dexxers won't worry about having resist and will dominant even in stat. Right now it's either a dexxer without resist or a mage without a weapon skill. Neither one seems too balanced to me.

    Life's too short. Let's just gank ;D. I'll leave balance to games that are stagnant, and cannot change.
     
  4. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    So did you miss a kill with your Greater Dragon Tamer or your Bushido Dexer?

    Here are a few of the other Skills and Tactics used that work very effectively that you may have missed fighting LOW or KOC. Other then the delayed spell casting off your pet, or it's fire breath, you may have to have another character, or retrain the ones you have.

    1. 2 Characters with Detect hidden, 10 sec Timer to Hide, 2 Detects means you need to move.
    2. Tracking with any of the above, Detect Hidden, Meteor Storm, Earthquake, Thunderstorm, Explosion Pots, Conflag Pots, Poison Fields, Para Fields.
    3. Hitting your Target after he shows with Bleed, DP(Darts, Stars,Spell), Strangle, Revenant, Mana Vamp, Explosion.
    4. Magery by itself with the above mentioned spells.

    Try asking your alliance mate with the Blue Dismount Tamer Revealer that hangs out next to the Gate in Luna every night for pointers, he reveals me a screen away all the time 100 skill points in Detect vs my 295 hide/stealth/ninja.
    This is his Templet-Tame/Lore/Vet/Archery/Tactics/Detect Hidden/Chiv-with a Blessable Heavy and a Super Dragon, hope that helps...
     
  5. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    I was referencing my previous thread that was unjustly locked for discussing how smoke/egg bombs should have a delay put on them, similar to how mounting an ethy or using a pet ball works. Both mounting and pet balling are disruptable and so should using an egg bomb. And believe me, if i were to ever pull my stealth tamer out to pvp/kill pep's, i wouldn't need any tips ;-) I've been having fun with my mage, thank you.
     
  6. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Many ways were given to you on how to deal with stealthers it really is not that hard! also if u feel a particular template is getting you down then make a template designed to counter that template. This is the beauty of uo there is no trump card, srry if your usual template is having trouble once in a while, god forbid you should have to work for a kill now and then. Invest in tracking and detect, tracking requires no more than 30-40 to track reliably and there is a vast host of ways to reveal someone once you have them on tracking. If your on seige then your probably pissed off about the stealth ninja taming situation or something therein. try not to confuse the whole picture with what you see as a problem for a given situation!
     
  7. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    I do play on siege and only on siege and have only ever played on siege since '98. I have a GM detect GM tracker and fail constantly while waiting out the timer to attempt again only to fail again even when tracked. If a reveal does happen, poof, gone again. Everything in this game has always gotten its abuse by every player imaginable and everything has always gotten its nerf in one way or another. You say i have a problem fighting or killing people, come to siege, i don't run a stealther for fighting and i have no problem killing anyone. The problem i have is nobody wants to fight and when they do *poof* gone. My previous thread stated how insanely easy it is to eliminate any poison bleed etc etc and then *poof* gone. Siege was meant to be a pvp hard shard, not a hahaha *poof* bye bye shard. OH and the mana vamp spell, ya might work if ya get lucky and the stealther loses conn or something like that. Even if you run with MV pre-casted thats not gonna stop anyone from animal form run turn corner hide bye bye. Delay timer NEEDS to be installed for using egg/smoke bombs.
     
  8. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I think putting in a 2-3 second delay between when you hide and when you can stealth will solve this problem.


    Stealth is for ambushing a target... sneaking around and the element of surprise. It is not meant as a get out of jail free card.

    They put in "you cannot flee in the heat of battle" because players would just recall out whenever they were getting close to dying in a fight and I could make the same arguments that you can counter someone who's recalling (by weaken spam, poison, blah blah) but the point is... a stealth ninja can pop out... attack me and the second I start winning the fight *poof* they are gone. LAME

    They put in "heat of battle" because they didn't want players doing it and now players are doing it, but in a different way.

    The skill set is overpowered. You can see it on Siege CLEARLY because the majority of the shard is either a stealth ninja tamer, stealth ninja archer, bok ninja stealther, ninja stealth mage, ninja stealth thief, or <insert anything here> ninja stealther.

    There are VERY few straight templates. I believe (and someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm the only tamer mage PvPer on the shard... everyone else is basically a ninja stealth tamer. I am one of the FEW mage PvPers and I can't tell you the last time I saw a straight up dexer (maybe Hugi? Tide?!?!? That's about it.)

    When more than 90% of the shard is all using the same skill set... something is wrong.

    It's a problem. It needs to be fixed. Not nerfed into oblivion, but fixed. Period.

    Make there a delay between hiding and when you can stealth. Allow us to counter the damn move. :thumbsup:
     
  9. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    Would you ask for a delay similar to mounting an Ethy for Evasion? Your asking for a delay on a defensive ability, if 3 Mages are Dumping on you when your playing the Bushy Dexer, you hit Evasion. If a Greater Dragon is sicked on you after you you were just dismounted, you hit Evasion.

    There is a timer between each one of your Evades, but as long as its up your deflecting all that damage. When a Ninja hits his smoke bomb, he can still take delayed damage, and be hit by many area effects, all of which do damage while he's hidden and have a good chance of revealing him, that's not even using the actual skill Detect Hidden, or Tracking him spamming Meteor Storm the entire time.

    Should a mage have a 10 second delay put on Invisibilty so he has to run off screen from a pet, cast wait 10 secs before he can hide?

    Every Templet has a weakness or is weak to something else, some more then others. Every templet has a Strength, but by being strong in one area your weak somewhere else. Hide Stealth and Ninja are surprise/defensive Templets that are usually very mana limited with zero magic resist and only weapon skill+ defence chance to block anything. They hit you quick as hard as they can, if they fail its time to bail because they cant go toe to toe with a good mage or Bush Dexer for very long....
     
  10. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    All that does is stick him in one spot so you can spam cast Meteor Storm at the spot you last saw him.


    275-340 Skill used to ambush in PVP which limits your attack power and definitely makes you vulnerable. Your also leaving out the Crafters and new players that use it on Siege for pure Survival, considering there is no GZ in any Faction Town atm, Id hate to see the fully loaded crafter at the Bank without the ability.

    You cast one spell, Mana Vampire on your Stealther that has Zero Magic Resist and not only can he not Smoke Bomb, he cant use any specials, or go in animal form.

    The only overpowered skill in this game is Magery, Its the one Skill that can do everything for you, get you a pet, hide you, buff you, attack with damage that never misses, as quick as some of the fastest firing bows, it does have a range like archery, but you never miss.
    People on Siege use it for a lot of Reasons, sneaking into places to farm unseen, sneaking up on farmers, going to the bank un-molested, stocking vendors un-molested.

    And lets not forget why there are not so many straight up Dexers, and why you dont see People running solo PVP anymore. Its a FACT that EVERY Main PVP Guild runs a Dismounter with a Heavy, or a Teleporting Bola Master and a Gank Squad right behind or a Tamer or all of the above.

    The thing that needs fixed is to REMOVE Dismount from the Heavy and replace it with another Move like Force Arrow, and make it so you cant teleport with items or spell right after you fired a Bola. Fix Pet Damage 2 screens away while your at it. And allow a Damn Tamer doing a Spawn to defend himself from other Guilds in his Faction that kill him while his pet stands there unable to defend.

    There are plenty of counters already, not everyone wants to fight every time they see someone on their screen, and not everyone wants to be run down by Gank Squads from hell.
     
  11. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I don't want to chop up your post so I will just respond in paragraph form.

    It should not take an army of players to kill one person. It should take 1 person if that person is better than the opponent. If a group of players is attacking 1 person, then the person should die, unless he/she is REALLY good... which I have seen first hand happen and can say have pulled off myself. Siege is in Felucca. If a miner doesn't want to die to a PK, then they should prepare for battle or accept the fact that when it comes... they are a sitting duck. Hiding/stealth should not be a save all to avoid a fight. The crafters can still move about the world hidden and un-noticed.

    What they will no longer be able to use it for, is a means to *poof* and get away from the fight with little real effort against someone prepared (such as a dexer with conflags, necro with poison strike, mage with meteor, etc. etc.) - this is the way it's supposed to be.

    It does not alter the fact that People on Siege can STILL use it for (as you say) a lot of Reasons; such as sneaking into places to farm unseen, sneaking up on farmers, going to the bank un-molested, stocking vendors un-molested.

    What it does change, is the abuse of this skill set so many have grown accustom to... which is why our shard looks dead. Damn near everyone is hidden.

    Lastly, magery is not over powered. Player skill should be the ceiling to a characters potential in this game... not a players items and not an overpowered template of the month which has been the case for a lot of the time spent Post-AoS. (Notice ninja stealth is the template of the month in my analogy and this discussion.) Magery is the top skill (and there are many that rank behind it) which rely on a players skill, ie. a players timing, know how and execution to be effective. It would be like someone trying to ebolt, ebolt, ebolt, ebolt, ebolt me to death. That shouldn't work if you know anything about playing the character. It takes experience and practice to hone the skill... NOT double clicking and the push of a couple buttons (like a combat skill.) The learning curve is much greater, therefore the potential should also be much greater. That being said... a good dexer is currently DAMN hard to kill. Of course a great mage will have the advantage, but that is because that character class deserves it for what is required of it to be great.

    - BlacK RaiN

    PS. I agree dismount should be removed from archery.

    EDIT: PPS. Can you imagine if my suggestion to beef up PVM loot drops goes through on Siege along with this? Why would people get so bent out of shape over a death if they could more easily equip properly for venturing out in the world? Just PLAYING the game would be fun... not just trying to survive, but just going out and enjoying yourself because dying didn't mean you're going to quit over a 5mil suit and now you HAVE to live or your day/gaming experience is ruined.

    You know... just food for thought.
     
  12. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    Take 1 Stealther any Templet with 100 Hide 75+ Stealth(no fail on Siege) and minimum 50 Ninja to Smoke Bomb- Minimum 225 Skill + any skillset you want to add (495 or less left)VS 1 Mage 120 Skill with all its abilities and any other set of Skills(600 left) is Advantage Mage everytime, especially if you add in the (SCNP -20 Mage Wep+ Crystaline Ring + 20 Mage) Templets that People are running allowing that Mage to drop Wrestle or Anat and still have full Advantage of the 120 Wrestle/Wep Defense and Attack minus Specials.

    If that Mage needs anymore help, he should just ask the Stealther to lay down and let him Kill him.
     
  13. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    By the way... using the situation you describe, I would try and make it to my advantage. If I was fighting a mage on a stealther and i saw them cast meteor swarm... I would take off running instantly. (because they are casting and frozen for split seconds)

    Then, counter-intuitively... As the mage I would hit my arm dagger macro to disrupt myself (fizzle the spell) and go after the target!!! Which again... I would have to stop and pause to resume the attack (you know... cast a spell) all while the dexer is becoming fully healed (bandages, pots, confidence, etc.)

    and the fight would be on again.

    OR I will have put enough distance between me and the mage (as the stealther) that I could hide, wait my 2 seconds and leave the fight if truly... i was out-matched mono-e-mono.

    In otherwords... I would have earned that "escape."

    That is what PvP is all about... moves and counter moves.

    Food for thought.
     
  14. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    you ever try and fight another player with 0 eval on your character? Try, 0 meditation?

    thats 360 skill points... come on now.

    That logic was used up eons ago.
     
  15. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    Ever try to fight a Mage wearing 60 DCI so your Lower Defence Wep is nullified and you hit him 50% or less with 45 HCI and hes casting on you not stop never missing? Putting out stacked Damage that your weapon can never match.
     
  16. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Yes, I have?

    Sometimes I hit 100% of the time... sometimes I wiff 5 in a row... it all depends on the RNG?.....?!?!?

    Ever endlessly dump spells on a 4/6 chiv dexer only to have them heal/cure so damn fast you can't ever do enough damage quick enough to take them down?

    It's all relative man... hiding/stealth is overpowered and needs to be balanced.
     
  17. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    Weapon+Tactics= Mage+ Eval, both Need Mana one for moves, one for Spells, one is Heavy in Mana the Other is Heavy in Stamina to swing, Mages have FC/FCR, Dexers have SSI
     
  18. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    There are no 4/6 Chiv Dexers on Siege that actively play that I'm aware of, I didnt even mention Healing, a mage has his all wrapped up in those 3 skills, plus use of Potions and Bushido confidence if he adds that. A dexer either uses just Pots, adds Bushido Confidence, or he has to add anat-Healing not a lot of room left after that for much.
    I think things are as Balanced as they are ever gonna get, but 3 Crosshealing Mages hardly have room to cry Disadvantage VS 3 Dexer Templets with or without Hiding and Stealth.
    Im done with U-Hell for tonight, I want to play some before Bed, good luck with the NERF the Hell out of Something Else Post....
    Goodnight U-Hell cya on the Field.
     
  19. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    If they adjust hiding/stealth... and especially if they beefed up PvM, I definitely see players starting to explore other templates... rather than the <insert anything here> ninja stealthers we have now.

    And even then, we have faction arties... 4/6 chiv dexers are very realistic on Siege.
     
  20. Maximus Neximus

    Maximus Neximus Lore Keeper
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    Tamer mage is not a mage. If you say "all kill" when fighting you cannot call yourself a mage. Try taking off taming/lore/vet(?) and adding detect/track. Pets in pvp need to be nerfed more than anything. Cap the damage and casting speed pets have on players or something, ANYTHING!

    There are solutions to the problem you guys have but you don't want to accept them. If you hide and have to sit there for 2-3 seconds the hider is going to be dead 100% of the time. Don't nerf their 200+ points because you reveal/kill them.


    AND


    [​IMG]
     
  21. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I have 2 characters. 1 is a tamer mage (my "money maker") and the other is a mage (my main) with several skills on stone (can be a mage with necro, parry, focus, scribe, hide, detect, spellweave, etc. etc.)

    ...

    no.

    It just won't be as easy as it is now.
     
  22. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Regarding the changes you proposed earlier, it will affect pvm'rs too. If it's to address a PvP issue, would it be better to suggest something like limiting the change to "players that have aggro'd another player cannot use smokebombs", including thieves? So you can't attack, then turn invisible immediately after doing damage. If the stealther was not the aggressor, then it works normally.

    I am guessing you are asking something to be done about the "attack and hide" people, which makes them able to damage you, while rendering you unable to retaliate. Basically, it works like the "Wouldst thou flee in the heat of combat?" flag that prevents attackers from recalling away. If you are the attackee, you can recall/smokebomb normally.

    Also, just to understand it better, someone mentioned in the locked thread that while there is a delay between using 2 smokebombs, players can hit their hiding macro immediately after using a smokebomb, rendering the detect hidden skill useless, is this true?

    Secondly, once aggro'd, even at GM hiding, the hider needs to be at least 8 tiles away before hiding or somehow break line of sight, is this different when PvP'g?

    Lastly, requiring everyone to be an eval mage isn't fair. But why did you choose mana vamp/eval mage as the title? Does the other suggestions not work?

    Just curious...
     
  23. Sir Morder

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    I would be all in favor of implementing a you cannot escape that easily message if you aggro another player and try to just smoke bomb out. If you can hide and get away thats one thing, but just being able to bomb out is completely overpowered. Yes if you smoke bomb out and are revealed, you can instantly hit your hide macro and go hidden again.
     
  24. SavageSP

    SavageSP Journeyman
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    That is absolutely False, It is not legally possible to use an eggbomb, and not have to wait 10 Seconds to be able to hide or eggbomb again.
     
  25. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    i'm still not seeing how anyone thinks it's overpowered. with all the options available for dealing with stealth, i think egg/smoke bombs are pretty balanced.
     
  26. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Well the rest of Siege does.

    Stealthers looking for other stealthers to kill is what the shard has become.

    Hey Ru TnT... you wouldn't happen to be a ninja stealther who is designed to seek out and kill other stealthers?

    Oh... wait... you are!

    Yeah...
     
  27. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    yup, seemed easier than whining on uhall...

    i enjoy hunting the other stealthers, but i still pvp against nonstealthers.
     
  28. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    This thread is full of fail...la