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Market, Event and Lottery

Discussion in 'UO Europa' started by UOFree, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    [​IMG]

    EUROPA TRADERS MARKET

    To be held at the new Europa Traders Market just at the East exit of Umbra, this market will be held once a month for a whole weekend. The Market will be held 18th-21st febuary 2010. Whole weekend there will be vendors filled with items at a cheaper price than normal.​


    Lottery


    This time instead of an Auction we will have a lottery. This is how it works you can buy as many tickets as you want from 1-99. A Ticket cost 500K - on Sunday we will draw 37 numbers with a Attendant NPC to draw them. If you buy a ticket and cannot attend the draw then you can contact an Europa Trader and have your ICQ - Tickets and Code written down. - Once a number has been picked by a player no other player can pick it so if you want your lucky numbers you have to be fast.
    To buy tickets contact Green or Black Europa Trader
    37 Prizes - 37 numbers will be drawn.

    Prizes in Lottery:
    8x Tall Potted Tree
    3x Leggings of Bane
    1x Full Virtue Armor Set
    5x Yellow Crystals
    7x Soulstone Fragment Token
    1x Ring of Vile
    1x Banshee's Call
    1x Necro Robe (Replica)
    1x Conjurer's Garb without Luck
    1x Egg Case Web
    1x Shadow Dancer Black Pigment Token (50) Charges)
    2x Harrow
    1x Planeshield
    1x Spirit of Totem
    1x White ML Hair Dye
    1x Library Talisman - Birds of Brit.
    1x Library Talisman - A Grammar of Orchish
    1x Shadow Wyrm Halloween Costume


    EUROPA TRADERS

    No Shopping List this time and Free vendor spots to everyone who wants. Those who had vendors at the other markets can reserve spots when they like rest have to wait untill Thursday 18th feb.

    This time will be the last Market for atleast 6 months, we have tried to get traders from Europa to learn about the modern trading and show them that its fairly easy to make a lot of gold while not having prices above market value. Market value is very important to keep trading going and when some people don't understand anything about trading and is all about shop running they will never want to learn about the modern trading and sadly there is too many of those on Europa, this might also be why some of the traders are moving to other shards, this includes two of the original Europa Traders who are a part of this project.
    But thanks for the support and we hope that people got some good bargains or got the help they wanted.​


    Time Schedule for the rest of the week​


    Thursday 18/2 -

    20:00 GMT - Soft Opening of the Europa Traders Market (Some vendors will starting being stocked)

    21:00 GMT - Hide and Seek an Europa Trader in Trinsic starts at Trinsic's SouthWest Bank

    Friday 19/2 -

    21:00 GMT - Hide and Seek an Europa Trader in Trinsic starts at Trinsic's SouthWest Bank

    Satuday 20/2 -

    21:00 GMT - Hide and Seek an Europa Trader in Trinsic starts at Trinsic's SouthWest Bank

    Sunday 21/2 -

    21:00 GMT - Lottery Draw with great prizes.

    23:59 GMT - Europa Traders Market ending


    Hide and Seek an Europa Trader in Trinsic Event

    [​IMG]


    From 16th feb to 20th feb. people can attend the Hide and Seek Event in Trinsic.
    Europa Traders Chars (Members of the Europa Trader Market Guild and named Europa Traders) will be standing around randomly picked spots in Trinsic. First 3 to find one of them can claim a prize from them. When one has handed out 3 prizes he will recall to his next radom location all over Trinsic.

    Hope to see you all there if anyone wants to be a part of the Traders assosiation please leave your ICQ on this post here on stratics and you will be contacted.


    Any donations for auction or for the assosiation can be put in the mailbox at the plot or paid onto the vendor.

    1st market Already Held
    2nd market Already Held
    3rd market 18-21/2-2010

    EUROPA TRADER
     
  2. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    :violin:
     
  3. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    I appreciate the market and the events, They are a fantastic addition to the shard and I thank you for hosting them.

    The trouble with the market I saw was, Its just basicly Luna vendors.. In Umbra. I mean yes, You can find a reasonable bargain but generally the prices are the same as they would be in Luna. My idea of 'market' would be reduced cost items, But like I said, these bargains seem to have slowly vanished as each market occured.

    I'll complete the 'Compliment Sandwich' by just thanking you for the effort you put into all these events. Really thought out and well timed around other events, I hope you continue the market later this year as it really is a good idea, just needs some tweeking! Thanks!
     
  4. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    I agree with the prices have been hard to keep lower than Luna, but also have to look at prices in Luna been lowered in the same timeframe. It will always be hard to buy low and sell for low prices. Prices was lowered on most vendors during the last market on the last day of the market. Same as where we normally get our items prices has been slowly raising. Before when we could get PoFs for 40-50K now 75-85K and still slowly going up. While Prices on Europa are 100-150K and on a US shard 250-400K. Same with other items but first Market was great, I also think with a longer periode between the markets the shards wont get flooded with as many items at same time.

    We will still try and see if its possible to hold some events like we have during the week of the Market.
     
  5. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    yeah i love these player run events/marckets :)

    Since Luna is bleeding to death....
    I see more and more vendors disappear or not getting restocked anymore...

    Aspecialy with those 3 big plots gone to waste , south of luna :(
     
  6. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    Well just because Darsus and members of TGF doesnt play anymore one or two people still have vendors there. I don't blame Dasrsus for not selling he invested a lot in the plots, in any of his plots all over the lands and shards. He was the one that actually made Luna better in the beginning when no other "Big" trader would move into Luna. Hence why Europa wasnt a Luna trading shard, like many of the other shards. I think if it had been different trading on Europa might have looked a lot better.

    But wouldnt matter if Darsus sold his plots wont change a thing on Europa its to late sadly.
     
  7. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    Yes, Europa is to backwards for you 'modern traders'? :rolleyes:

    I would say: "Goodbye and good riddens" but we all know you'll be back sooner or later. One day, hopefully, you really are.... Done
     
  8. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    Well Europa clearly has become worse with the lack of traders and players moving on to other shards. But you wouldnt understand since you don't really do much of anything anymore right? We can also just talk about the poor EMs of Europa but ofcause you wouldnt know about that either....

    I doubt that I will trade on Europa again, but who knows maybe things change. Personally I enjoy trading on US shards.
    But I'm only stopping with the trading on Europa, not quitting the shard.
     
  9. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    Well i for one have enjoyed all ''Frees'' markets

    ...and lets not forget the auctions...simply and easily the best auction we have ever had on europa with the random freebies etc etc

    ..oh and lets not forget the poker stuff and the events he laid on...

    quite simply Free invested a lot of time in europa and europa simply aint responded how he would have hoped for.....

    Again a big shout for Free...'''brilliant effort'' and will be sad to see the end

    well after that little rant i to am Done!! hURRAHHHHHHhhhhh
     
  10. RaistlinNowhere

    RaistlinNowhere Slightly Crazed
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    About trading in europa , it is really getting worse, cause here the people always try to get items that cost million or has a high price, for a few cents ( obviously everyone try this of course, but in europa is getting to a point that make angry to all traders, cause people make us feel "greedy" or scum traders)

    So cause of this , is logical that big traders are leaving europa, or leaving game, so YES, europa is getting worse and i really hope it will get better ....

    Me, for example, will never leave my europa tradings, but im starting to think on other shards, and leave europa like a second position or less important, cause all i said before.

    To finish, i really really hope that this wont be like an asian shard, al most no shop, almost no stock due to we "kill" all big traders, and if the people think that with no traders there will be better items and lower prices, they are mistaken .....

    well, i have said too much so is better to finish it now , but that the problem europa have.
     
  11. slugmaster

    slugmaster Adventurer
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    Even whit this shard dieing for good, we still have fights, alc/leto vs UOfree/traders, this is just what europa needed. Have people realized that Europa is dieing? I maybe should make a whole post about this, but if brit bank redecoration didn't work, Europa Traders Union didn't work, Europa trading market didn't work, EM events are only good for a few guys who just re-sell the items, etc.. I don't see any way of saving this shard, stop trolling and help a little.
     
  12. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    Actually, we won that fight several years ago when most of our 'competition' was disqualified for cheating.

    I'm sure Europa will be just fine without players like that.
     
  13. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I'm just going to go ahead and say what many are probably thinking, at no one in particular.

    All this squabbling and back-biting isn't terribly impressive.
    If you'er trying to promote trade, and all that, then bickering and sniping at each other isn't going to win any hearts and minds.

    Problem with the rising prices is that anything that's for sale cheaper than in Luna is likely to be bought up for reselling. So the choice for someone selling an item is "Do I sell at Luna prices, and get full profit? Or do I sell to a reseller for less profit, while padding the bank account of the reseller?"
    I'm not especially greedy, but I have no desire to fund a reseller unless I'm the one buying from them.
     
  14. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    To the "Europa trading is dying" - crowd:

    I am not sure what you lot are complaining about really.

    • That theres not enough trading going on? I beg to differ.
    • That you can`t sell at the old prices anymore? Yes, you are correct.
    • That there isn`t market for "insert random item here"? Yes - there are items that sell slow on Europa compared to other shards, and some items that you can hardly move at all. But that has always been the case - just that the items in question have changed.
    • That many Luna vendors do not stock often enough? That is also correct.
    • That you now as a buyer sometimes have a hard time finding the item you are looking for ? Yes - that is also correct.
    • That many players are referring to resellers and big traders as greedy and "scum"? When did players NOT refer to any Luna vendor as that. No change there.
    • That many x shardtraders move elsewhere? Yes - but I don`t agree that that is generally a bad thing.

    You are talking about the trading scene of Europa and doing so in war fonts. "It`s dying! Luna is bleeding!"
    No, it`s not dying - it`s changing - and has been for years.

    Theres still lots of trading going on, the buying and selling of goods - from crafted items to PS and arties. In Luna, and other places. How do I know that ? Because Im an avid shopper, I love to browse - and I see vendors going from fully stocked to empty during my visits. A hands on and direct experience :) People are still buying, and other people are still selling. The trading as such is not dead. What we sell and buy however, where that trading takes place, and the price we want to pay - has changed.

    Consider this:

    The trading, the exchange of goods have other arenas now. Take the trade board here on stratics for example: Before that, more casual players needed to find a reseller to unload their wares, and those items then would find their way to a Luna vendor. Or they could set up a vendor, drop runes - and take it down when they had sold it all. Or they could spam WBB/Luna to sell it off. With the addition of the trade boards, players do not longer need to do any of that - they can just save up a collection of items and put them up for sale on the board. Look at how much that board is used here on Europa compared to other shards for example. It`s a change in habit. This change means that any reseller would need to scour the board for good deals, competing with other resellers and regular buyers for the same items. This change is and has been huge, and has made a great impact on the europa trading scene. In addition we now have the general chat - which many players use now for selling and buying.

    The last few years we have also seen a change in shop and vendor owners. Many luna vendors are run by people who are not playing so much anymore, or they are run by people not really interested in running a shop - but a mere vendor. We have a plethora of this and that vendors in Luna, and few real shops that always is stocked. The last two "shops" in Luna is Tweedledee and now the new one run by Libra. The rest is a soup of bits and bobs. One of the reasons for this change are the search engines. With the introduction of that, players no longer needed to attract buyers to a well stocked, well run and appealing shop. They could just put something on a vendor and if priced right -it would eventually sell. Luna is still like that, and I don`t see that changing anytime soon. It is as it is. What this also brought about, in addition to game changes, was a more competitive market in Luna and on Umbra Road - pressing the prices down. Game changes also was a part of that change, if anyone remember the old prices of some of the doom arties as an example. Combine that with the trading on the board and in chat, and you have a huge pressure on prices.

    With the introduction of imbuing - theres also a lesser market for many items that used to be solid sellers. Theres more items introduced to the game than ever before, and with that - some items worth is devalued or even non-existing.

    The playerbase has gone down, yes. This we all know. Of course that has a great impact on the trading scene as well. We have an influx of returning players as well, but their needs at the moment is a bit different than what is usually sold in Luna. Those who have remained have probably build up a collection of items over the years, and as such don`t really need or want so much anymore. With a lesser market for certain items, the variety of items up for sale has gone down as well. What people sell at the moment, are the items they know will move, so we have a more narrow list of items to choose from than only a few years back. What people need and want and value right now, is a bit different than what they used to value.

    There is still many opportunities to earn gold in huge quantities - but if you look back and think that the shard will be the same as it always has been - despite recent game changes, publishes and expansion - you are wrong. If you cling to the old ways and declare the trading on Europa dead because you can no longer earn the same amount of gold doing the same things as you always did, you are also wrong.

    Theres still plenty of players on Europa with more gold than sense. Like me - at least sometimes when I have some gold to use:) Theres still lots of trading going on, almost everywhere. Theres still items that will give you loads and loads of gold if you sell them. Adapt or move, your choice.
     
  15. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    :owned: :stretcher:
     
  16. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    How can that be owned when people was banned for suspected of exploiting. No Proof needed, its all suspection. Maybe thats why there is so many many many duped items around now because they did such a good job and still are doing it?

    Everyone had duped items even Leto and Alecesits some where just lucky enough to not get banned. But thats the past, atleast now the dupers can dupe what they wants and doesnt get banned because EA doesnt care.

    Besides the players who got banned back then was back into the game in no time and up and running in no time. The ones who benefits most from the bans back then was the dupers and still is.
     
  17. slugmaster

    slugmaster Adventurer
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    For it is as simple as this... pvp players are leaving to US shards, even if that means higher pings, wich for me, it means something is going wrong, and this is a fact.
    Some people say, even some pvm players are leaving too, I don't know about this.
    Market has changed, some products that were desirable before imbuing are not now, we all understand that. It is not just market changing, not the competition between traders, always been and I think that is even good for trading, not, the lack of buyers is the reason why I have the feeling trading is geting worse(pvpers are great consumers); stuff used to sit for days in vendors, now it sits for weeks, that is what I see and what other traders tell me. No one wants this shard to be as great as it used to be more than me, I just say Europa decay is not directly proportional to UO decay, it is worse.
    And I wish I had the key to change this but I don't, believe me I hate to move to atlantic to sell my stuff, I have old shops here and the bank thingy, and I feel forced to move if I want some stuff to be sold before it is covered in dust or vendor fee's eat all my profit.

    Note: Love your new signature Serafi ;)
     
  18. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    I do believe europa is dieing.

    I've been playing on drachenfelds and there are far more people there (just in general)

    A lot of our stuff is being transfered to other shards...
    And some cheaper asian stuff is being transfered to our shard.
    Won't be long or we'll end up like some of those asian shards...where x-shard traders buy our shard empty for a cheap price to export to their shard.

    Can't blame them...

    But it's getting hard for the people left on the server...
    We look for simple stuff and we can't find it for sale anywhere.

    I hate it how some apply the hemisphere trick...
    Like hemisphere did...he bought every hooded shroud of shadows he could find on the server...to then set his own price wich was way too high.

    Same thing is now happening with our conjurer's garb
    The prices are going double...simply because some traders cut us dry to set their own price.
     
  19. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    Eh? Anyone playing with EC will know that is not true. Right now the shards with medium load is Atlantic, Great Lakes and ... Europa. Drachenfels is on low, and usually is even during primetime. How full you experience the game is related to where you go and what you do, and the culture on that particular shard. I doubt the logging screen in the EC lies. I have never, ever seen Drachenfels with a bigger load than Europa. I also have never heard that Drachenfels was a busier shard in total than ours, that must be a first :)

    This has always been the case. Nothing new there, and neither are signs that the shard is dying.

    Claiming the shard is dying really rubs me the wrong way, especially now when we have had a great influx in the player base since SA launch and the shard is simmering with life. No, it might not be in the areas where you would like or enjoy, but if you played only 1.5 years ago you would notice the difference. UO has been dying for 12 years, it started to die the minute it was launched - that is just the nature of the beast. Same with this shard. But if you claim that Europa is dying as a whole, one of the more populated shards still - I am not really sure on either your perception or perspective.
     
  20. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    I can certainly see how the move of the pvp base will affect trading in general. They buy a lot of .. stuff:) But your perspective is from the trader style. That some items sits longer now than they used to is the cycle of the MMO I think - with the introduction of all these new items only the past year. The shard as such is not dying - but there might be a move in playstyles. Maybe your playstyle, the x sharder/trader is on the verge of extinction, I dunno. But that doesn`t mean that the whole shard is. I can boldly claim that the shard will be there even if UOfree decides to leave us. Claiming otherwise is a tad delusional don`t you think?

    I am not really sure either it`s a lack of "buyers" in general. Buyer of what?

    What I see, and have seen - is the lack of dedicated shop-keepers. In that, we have noticed a decline - not only in recent months, but over many years. We have the worst Luna I think of all the shards, with mostly empty vendors. That, is a problem but not a thing one can do much about. Players set up vendors and forget about them, realizing its more work than they thought. RL happens, people become mothers and fathers - move on etc.. And as such , Luna has a less impact on Europa than other shards perhaps, as players have come to depend less on that for trading. There are many "shops" in Luna I just run past, because I know theres no point in running in there. It`s been like this for years and years.

    If you are a trader, the best thing you can do for trading in general is just to keep restocking your vendors and never let them go empty.

    I would hate to see you leave though.

    Yes, isn`t it pretty! ;)
     
  21. The House of Mowbray

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    I can relate to this. I placed 45 assorted kegs on a vendor at my Luna shop the other day at normal prices [eg; greater heal @ 4k each] just to see what would happen. And within 1 hour a Luna trader came along and bought everything!

    I checked their shop over the last few days and bought a few kegs at the inflated price, and low and behold the vendor was restocked within minutes!

    Now it could just be a coincidence but I would wager that those kegs were the cheap ones from my vendor.

    Much as The House of Mowbray would love to, it will be nigh on impossible to build up a shop of normal items at normal prices within the walls of Luna if this is the sort of thing that goes on!

    I don't think Luna is dying, it is just being strangled by a select few greedy traders fixing prices and others owning multiple plots WITHOUT using them which in turn stops other players from moving into the town.

    I'm not into the 'squabbling thing', so feel free to flame if you don't agree with what I have said. But it will likely fall on to deaf ears!
     
  22. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    I ran a shop in Yew, then Zento for many years - trust me on this: 4 K is not "normal" price for a keg of greater heal. Show me your shop and I will buy you out, and I even have an alchemist of my own and don`t run a pot vendor at all! Just need it for the plants :) At 4K you are giving it away, but thats my opinion. You haven`t included the time it takes to make that keg, not even considering your profit is horribly low. If I had been in the merchanting business still, I would have bought you out as well - and not even having the slightest bad thought about it. If you value your time so little, why should I?

    When it comes to resellers, any shop out in the outskirts have to consider this when setting prices. It`s part of being a merchant and running a shop. Don`t blame the resellers that come to your shop and find good deals. It`s you that have set those prices in the first place. Finding that balance between keeping the prices down, but still over the profit margin of a reseller is part of your skill see. Same is setting prices on things you want to move faster. Resellers can be a curse, but they can also be a blessing. Learn to work that to your advantage:)

    People still buying kegs and not potions btw?
     
  23. ZidjiN

    ZidjiN Babbling Loonie
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    You dont have to own a house in order to have a vendor in Luna. Ive been running vendors in Luna for years without ever owning a house.

    Greedy?
    Maybe. Its up tp you to decide. I sure doesnt feel greedy.

    Do i find trading funny?
    Yes i do. Thats why i do it.
     
  24. Cailleach

    Cailleach Certifiable
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    Is it me or is this a fit of pique because folks won't trade the way ET wants them to?

    You don't control the market (no matter how much you would like to) and if you don't like the way folks on Europa trade, well, there's plenty of other shards out there to choose from.
     
  25. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    I made a conscious effort to stay away from suspect items rather then blindly go for the profit. That is why I didn't get banned. It had nothing to do with luck. I wasn't worried about my accounts for a moment.
    In fact, none of the bans came as a surprise to me as it was rather easy to spot those at risk.



    For the record: I am not in the least bit interested in promoting trade. I'm posting in this thread cause arrogant cheaters who feel they are to good for the Europa shard set me off!

    :yell:
     
  26. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I just saw the whole discussion (which is interesting to me) going in the same direction PvP discussions usually go in - the end result being that the subject and aim of the thread ends up becoming marginalised by the drama.
    I've only recently got a little into trading, but I always used to prefer the way things were to how they are now, as a buyer.
     
  27. slugmaster

    slugmaster Adventurer
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    Serafi you sound like Zapatero(current spanish president) 1 year ago:
    Spain is going great, we are not afected by the crisis, we will be fine..
    Now we are totally ****ed up over here. :D
    this is just a joke, dont get me wrong. But I hope you are right and Europa mantain its population.
     
  28. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    :lol:

    "Don`t you worry, everything will be fine!":)

    No, I am not saying everything is fine, but that has more to do with UO as a whole and not only the shard Europa. I have also tried to point out a few factors that work towards the change.

    A shift in playerbase.
    Increase in number of items in general.
    Luna as a ghost town, where players have moved elsewhere to sell/buy.
    Launch of imbuing.
    A change in how and where people trade.
    A pressure on prices.
    And a dozen more. All these factor in and are causing the change I think.

    One has a tendency I think to value one owns playstyle more than others, and perhaps overestimate it`s effect. I would think that for many players on Europa it doesn`t really matter a bit what happens in Luna. A loss of x-sharders doesn`t really effect them one iota. They will happily do whatever they have always done whether that is whackamole with friends or re-customize their house yet another time. To claim the shard is dying because we lose some big traders is... well... *coughs*. If we lost many of the basic suppliers however, it actually would be far more serious.

    I can tell you for certain that we will not, in light of the general dwindling of the playerbase across all shards. What is kind of interesting though is that this "crisis" as you lot call it, comes about in a period where we have seen more activity and returning/new players than we have in a long time. That is rather telling I think.
     
  29. slugmaster

    slugmaster Adventurer
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    None of us have the real numbers of population, i'd love to see how exactly population moved, in the last 2 or 6 months.
    About the lack of basic suppliers beeing a bigger problem, I don't see it that way, if there is a lack of suppliers, you can bring it from other shards, but what if there is a lack in demand?(say pvprs, rare collectors, and so on), in that case you have items laying in vendors for weeks, or people selling their stuff to big traders, like what happened with alcestis in the past, and then people pay whatever the big trader wants. Overpriced items that barely sells, empty shops cos no one even bother selling their stuff other than selling it fast and cheap to X "gold speculator".
    I am convinced that demand is way more important than offer, if demand is big, prices raise and people find benefits while supplying. If i had big demand on my products ill find the way to obtain them.

    Altho.. atlantic and such is going to have just the same problem if traders keep invading the shard, and maybe shards like europa will do well with less traders.
     
  30. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    So GOD guild killed Europa?
     
  31. jbfortune

    jbfortune Slightly Crazed
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    YES!

    I must be playing a different game. Luna Bank has been packed recently. More than I've seen for a long while.
     
  32. Crest Lavender

    Crest Lavender Babbling Loonie
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    Ok - having followed the market and the thread here i think its time to annoy you with one of my posts :)

    First of all speaking about numbers: i started noting down the number of guilds and some guild-size infos from the guild section on the my-uo site several years ago. This was paused during my absence from uo but i recently started it again and from that infos i can
    guess some very rough estimates on numbers:

    As of now we seem to have about 8 to 9 K guilded charakters on Europa (i reckon this
    is based on active accounts from my experience with the movement of the numbers).

    Compared to that are estimated 4-5K guilded Charakters on Drachenfels and about maybe
    25-30k guilded charakters on Atlantic (the biggest shard from those numbers right now).

    These are very rough estimates, based on the size of the 10 biggest guilds on each shard (veteran members) and the number of guilds in total on those shards!

    In the peak times based on my notes (if i remember right - have them at home), Europa
    had a population of over 40k - maybe around or even over 50k guilded charakters!
    (around 2002 i think - can check that back when i am home)


    I cant really say much about the last months or year in uo, since i only came back in december/january - so i will step back on commenting any 'Europa is dying now' statement, except the remark, that i agree with Serafi that those forecasts are around repeatingly over the years. (But i fear that maybe one day they might become truth :()

    On the Trading/Vendor Discussion:
    I placed a vendor on the Market and had my first (after almost 12 years ;)) real
    Trading experience! I would refer to myself much more as a crafter than a trader
    since all the vendors i ran so far were selling stuff i had crafted for that purpose.

    On the market i sold Seeds of Renewal from my own Plantage and they were going
    very fast - so i had some gold on my hands on friday already and started to buy
    some stuff i saw on vendors cheap enough to have the hope to be able to sell it
    at a price still under Luna-Level (since i think thats what the market was for) and
    still get a bit profit from the sales.

    Well - some sold and some didnt, some i just had failed to see the proper market
    value and might have fallen for overpriced or outdated vendors in luna for my
    pricings - but all in all it was a nice experience.

    The main thing i wondered about was the way the market went - it was almost
    like a church - there were often a bunch of people there, but all where silently
    browsing the vendors. The Silence only was disturbed by the vendors saying the
    buyers name. It was getting a bit louder towards the end of the Martket when
    the Lottery was running and people where figuring the tickets and numbers - but
    still - this was one of the most quiet markets i ever saw!

    Another thing indeed where prices of the Items - some where attraktive and valid
    for a 'market' while others just seem to see the market as a chance to get high
    priced items offered to a large audience. And even since they wont sell there was
    not much movement in the prices on the vendors - wich i would have expected.
    (Though there were exceptions to that - like at the Vendors of the Black Cat Shop or
    the one selling the Dragon Head lower in the end :))

    All in all i would like to see a more active market - esp. with crafter service - wich was
    non existent at this one as far as i saw.

    Speaking of Crafters: I think there is a difference between traders and crafters and
    with the imbuing system the focus might go back to crafters more again. With all the
    items and artifacts comming from mobs and hunts the crafting business went a bit
    down - at leats that was my last impression when i left and looking at the shops
    today still supports that view. Often the Hunters and Fighters werent really the
    people to trade their achieved items and so the profession of the 'trader' became
    more important, while crafted armor and weapons became less important, yet making
    the former loved and respected Crafters becomming Mules for less important items like
    furniture etc.
    I really would like to see this changed again and with imbuing and other game mechanics
    its possible - but it also depends on the crafters of europa, to establish a functioning
    and working environment for their business again.

    Well - thats just my view atm, wich is based on only a surface-look on UO-Europa as
    it stands today - for a deeper look i need more experiences i guess.

    By the way - it was very nice seeing a Vendor of the BoC at the Market as well!
     
  33. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    I've been playing since 2000...and Lino has been playing since 97.
    We both crealy see the diffirence...

    i'd like to know where that 8-9k guilded people are hiding...

    Cause i feel lucky when i get to see 25 diffirent people on a whole day.
     
  34. The House of Mowbray

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    I didn't make the kegs, they were a mixture of some that were left by the previous owner of my house and some from an IDOC. Selling them at lower prices than the other Luna vendors [not all were priced at 4k each] was just an experiment to see if or how long it would take for someone to come along and 'buyout'.


    My point exactly about greed. Why buy all and not leave some for others. This is also precisely why a Luna shop selling essentials at reasonable prices will never work, unless there is someway to limit access to your vendors [apart from banning] that I don't know about.

    Yes, it's called consideration for others. I don't want to make lots of gold from running a shop, I have plenty of money already. I was looking more to making a contribution to the community and trying to make my Luna home into a good place for shopping. I read all the time and see comments in game that players cannot find well stocked shops that sell essential things at fair prices. I also see alot of players saying that Luna has rip off prices on more or less everything! If I was to attempt to try and build up a shop within Luna stocking essentials at reasonable prices, all that would happen is players like you would come along and buy it all to resell at a profit, and that is not how I WANT to spend my time in UO!

    No in my case they would just be a hinrance. Hence the reason why I doubt my project will see the light of day.
     
  35. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    No matter how much you may want to decide what others do, or how they play - you can't, so in the politest possible sense, and not meaning to be rude - please, get over it. If concern about what others might do dominates your ideas, you are probably best not even starting out since all you will do is get wound up about something you can never control.

    I'm pretty certain people buy the 'chicken starter kits' I sell at 5k so they can resell the contents for more, and that's fine by me, since I also think a few people get them cheap so they can start raising their own birds. Sure, I could get upset about how they are 'spoiling' my idea - but since I can do absolutely NOTHING about how other people behave, I'd be an idiot to worry over it.

    If you want to try something, then do it - don't let fear of how others might 'misuse' what you do stop you if you think you would enjoy it. But never think 'I'm doing this for the good of the community so they had best behave as I hope', it ain't going to happen.
     
  36. ZidjiN

    ZidjiN Babbling Loonie
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    I bought 4 120 Magery scrolls a couple of weelks ago for 40mill. I havnt seen any in luna for a couple of days or weeks so i listed the magery scroll for 20 mill. left a couple of runes and it sold in about an hour.
    In the same vendor house as i have my vendor i found a 120 magery scroll for 12mill, I bought that scroll as well.

    So i did spend 52 mill and sold the same items for 100mill, thats 48 mill profit for about 30 minutes of work.
    I belive that the persons that sold me the scrolls was well aware that 120 magery scroll usually go for 17ish mill in luna but they decided to sell them to me for a cheaper price since they wanted a fast sale.

    Whats not to like about that? They got their gold and i got my gold.
    Everyones happy.
     
  37. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    So you didn`t craft the keg, you didn`t slowly build up stock on NPC vendors - or waited for the Faction ones to restock, nor did you scour the land for best price on bottles, nor lumbered for the wood or mined for the iron ingots to make the keg, then sat through pass after pass grinding potions until your eyes bled and your arms were numb. You just placed some leftover kegs on a vendor at a lower than market price, and expected.. what to happen exactly?

    Yes - indeed why not... You know - there are a few potion vendors on the shard that do the above. That does the whole timeinvestment of running a potion vendor. Running such a vendor and keeping it stocked is a real undertaking. I wouldn`t blame anyone that comes around and see your kegs from IDOCs at 4K pr, thinking of the time and work saved and buying you out. What did you lose btw?

    What is reasonable in your eyes? Someone giving you something for free even though they have spent their UO time crafting/making/hunting for it?

    Yes indeed, but there are other sides of that coin.

    I think those that are keeping their vendors stocked every week, even though it`s a lot of work, are major contributors to the shard and the community. Your potion vendor was an experiment - and will or will not stay. The potion vendors outside and inside Luna will stay, and will keep restocking. I for one would see that they feel they get some gold back for their time-investment. At 4K pr you are undermining theirs. That can also be called consideration for others, don`t you think? You say you don`t need the gold, what if another actually does that as a main income in the game for awhile?

    Well, then don`t. Don`t feed the resellers with silly experiments. Learn the market value of the things you would like to sell, and set a price for them that keeps the resellers at bay - but are still reasonable and cheaper for others. That balance can be found. That is how many shop owners outside of Luna has done for years, and they are still doing it. I am sure we would like to see a reasonable priced Luna shop - even though there are actually plenty of those, despite what many say. I am certain you wouldn`t price a Crimson Cincture at 5 Mil, would you? Thinking that was reasonable and then be aghast when the first buyer came along, bought it and put it up for three times as much. That would be silly don`t you think? What made you think a potion keg was any different? That it didn`t have a market value as well ?
     
  38. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    Europa has been blessed by some really good crafter shops, which are still going - and new ones raise and fall from time to time. They just work through the new times, incorporate some of the new items in their stock, but are still supplying us with the basics.
     
  39. The House of Mowbray

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    I expected EXACTLY what happened. I just didn't think it would happen so quickly. This and your attitude towards my posts has IMO proved my point that anyone wanting to move into Luna and set up a shop selling essentials at reasonable [hence the empahsis on REASONAL aka AFFORDABLE] prices, would just get cleaned out by the other Luna traders. Who would then resell the stock at a higher price - having done no more than been in the position to have enough gold to make large bulk purchases.

    And to put it in laymens terms for the other 2 posters who seemed to completely miss my point. I was originally saying that in my opinion the above reason is likely why Luna is the way it is now, and as such, unlikely to change anywhere in the near future.
     
  40. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    OK....leaving aside the silliness of the implication that Luna is the only place to shop, or in some way 'special' other than convenience, let's look at this 'point' of yours people are supposedly missing...

    'Essentials' are perfectly available. If they were 'essential', and not available, then nobody would be able to play.

    If people can resell stock at a higher price than you want to sell for - what, precisely is wrong, other than 'those people are not playing like I want them to"? If they can keep on selling at these supposedly 'excessive' prices, that has to imply people are keeping on buying.

    "Reasonable" prices are entirely personal choices, what I will pay for something is not what you, or anyone else, would likely pay.

    The reason why Luna is like it is now is because it pretty much works like it is now. Were it not working, it would not be like it is now. You see, it's a game. There are no absolutely "essential, must have or I'll die, my children will starve or I'll be homeless" items. You may not like it (I don't, I think so much is stupidly overpriced it's rare I look around Luna unless I really want something specific, or I feel like a laugh at some of the prices) but it's pretty much what people accept. When almost limitless amounts of in-game gold exist, silly prices follow.

    You, however, take the stance 'it should be cheaper' - but have no apparent substance behind your assertion. But as you said earlier,

    "I'm not into the 'squabbling thing', so feel free to flame if you don't agree with what I have said. But it will likely fall on to deaf ears!"

    (You want to state what you think people should be doing, without listening to their opinions? Interesting stance there....).

    Your point, as you call it, is that you can't see a shop set up in Luna that sells things as cheaply as you think they should, and therefore the people who charge more than you think they should are doing something 'wrong'.

    Even to someone who has precisely one vendor, that sells stuff dirt cheap way outside Luna, your position is completely nonsensical, made worse by your unwillingness to even try do anything to change something you clearly disapprove of.

    You want stuff sold cheaper? Sell it cheaper. Since that has no appeal to you, I conclude what you really want is to be able choose who is allowed sell things in Luna, so they can't charge what YOU think are excessive prices. Or maybe it's just a chance to say how horrible other people are for not doing what you think they should do....

    Either way, there's nothing of any value, in real life or UO terms, to your position. It's just another rant from someone who "knows" how everyone else should act.
     
  41. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    There are two equally valid sides to this coin.
    The problem lies in a lack of respect for those on the other side.

    Heads - Individual wants to provide a service. They're not really looking to fill a room with gold coins, so they can go swimming in it - for them, profit is more a spiritual or psychological thing. For example if I were to give a new player an all-70s suit, there'd be no material profit, but I'd feel good for doing it.
    Tails - Individual wants profit. Barely needs describing, really.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive.
    The problem is that both sides don't respect each others approaches.
    Profit seekers consider those looking to provide a service as suppliers.
    Those looking to provide a service consider profit seekers as vultures, or similar.

    Everyone's here, now, telling the other side they're wrong.
    I'd say that is what's wrong with trading.
    There's little respect between traders, and everyone sees everyone else as a potential supplier for their slice of the pie
     
  42. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Mostly true Kimi - however, I'm not trying to tell anybody their style of trading is 'wrong', even if I think some pricing is silly - what I seriously object to is someone saying "'what you people are doing is wrong, so I'll tell you how you should behave, but not do it myself because there's no point because all you people won't do what I want you to do"....

    We drop stuff off in Haven, kit out new players, and such because we enjoy doing it. Nothing stops anyone from doing this, or from providing the 'service' of selling things cheaply. The chance that other people might use these low prices or 'generosity' to make a profit is bluntly a risk you have to take, since human nature isn't going to change noticably overnight (especially if those who want it to change won't even try setting the example of how it 'should' be in their mind).

    If anyone plays within the rules, doesn't spoil anybody else's game, and has fun, then they are doing it right, and no other person has any place telling them how they should behave - especially when they won't even follow their own advice.

    Saying what you yourself think should be happening, explaining how, and best of all setting that example, is great, and probably the best use of a forum. There's a fair level of respect between most traders, and most of us who are really 'consumers' rather than serious traders. But.... there's always someone keen to tell everyone else how they should behave, and I have no patience at all for that sort of sanctimonious nonsense, particularly if the source won't even practice what they preach. If you want to change how people behave, there is really no substitute for starting with how you behave and building from there.

    But we've seriously derailed the thread, which is about an event that a lot of people enjoy, so I'll leave it and let things get back to the point.....
     
  43. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    In this thread we started out with the traders in Luna that trade in high end items. That is a trade different than those who provide basic supplies. By "supplier" I don`t mean a supplier for other shops in Luna, but a supplier of general goods like furniture, repair deeds, pots etc. to the general playerbase.

    To me - they both provide a service and they are both needed. Sellers in Luna provide (or don`t provide as it is now) the steady supply of mace and shield glasses, crimson cinctures, PS etc. Crafter shops supply your daily use of smoke bombs, bolas etc.

    They both also need profit to make the wheels turn. Even the typical crafter merchant. Their main motive is they do it because it`s fun for them, whether it is doing a good trade or seeing players deco their houses with their own crafter`s tag on it. I still see mine from time to time in peoples houses. I like that:) But since a crafter merchant probably spends all her/his time ingame restocking, gathering and crafting - their shop/vendors are probably also their main source of income for other things. So, they need profit too just as much as the trader in Luna, otherwise they wouldn`t really run a shop as a service, they would instead join HLP and give away all those 70 suits. Some combine the two:) The gold you get from your vendors are the daily mandate to keep it up and running. If no one visited your shop, nothing sold - you would probably just stop. Greed? If feeling your play time is worth something in gold to others is greed, then all crafter shops are greedy and can be piled together with the Luna traders...

    You can`t divide these two groups into profitseekers and non-profitseekers, cause they both want that in the end, even if the drive might be different. It`s not black and white. If your vendor is constantly empty because you failed to take into account the market value of whatever you are selling, you are not really providing any service either. It`s just a vendor taking up space. Same if you never sell anything as well.

    So Mowbray comes along, decides that 8.5K pr potion keg in Luna, or 6.5K on Umbra Road isn`t "reasonable" and does his little experiment and runs off to the boards claiming people are "greedy" cause they bought him out with a mark up of whatever. Yes - you get rich selling potion kegs, and their drive is probably profit only. *snorts* Not only does he devalue the service other potion vendors are providing to the community, he also devalues and undermines their time and effort in keeping that going.

    I dare anyone thinking 8.5K in Luna isn`t reasonable to do the following: (disclaimer here: I don`t run any potion vendor, nor do I know the players in Luna who is. I just ran one for 7 years and I know how much it literally can hurt. Running one in a busier shop is the nightmare of my dreams..)

    Characters:
    Carpenter for parts of the potion keg, tinker for other parts of the keg,lumberjack for the wood and miner for the iron ingots. Then you would need some gold as start capital to buy the bottles and reagents. You can either recall around to the NPC shops in trammel or fel, or use the Faction ones. Either way, getting to 60K in each reg is going to take you a whole day if not more.

    Start grinding potion kegs - make sure you have a beetle at hand if you don`t have the vendors at your home. Check your mind for mind rot every once in awhile, and make sure you log on your tinker now and then to fill up with tools. If you are still alive after grinding out X amounts of kegs, set up your vendors at a busy location and fill them up with what you have. Set your "reasonable" price, then work to keep them stocked at all times. Rinse and repeat. Then come back and tell me what price you really think is "reasonable" - not only for your customers - but for your time and effort. Then answer this question : Do you feel greedy?

    Anyone planning on setting up a vendor could do their homework. That means understanding and knowing what the price range of items are - in Luna and elsewhere. Then one would need to find their own price range taking into account how much time one want to spend on it daily and the location of the shop. Then spend some time afterwards tweaking the price till you find that balance between what you want to sell it at, and the market elsewhere. If it sells too fast then you change it, if it sells too slow you change it. If you want to keep it cheap to free your best bet is New Haven where there are returning players and new ones every day.

    I don`t see that at all. There is little respect of one trader in particular due to history, and then theres Mowbray who shows a complete lack of knowledge of the Europa scene and trading/crafting in general.

    For the record: At the moment I run two vendors: One is purely providing a service with imbued sets in the guild shop. I imbue for the guild at cost, the vendor is just there with a mark up for those not wanting to wait. The other is in Luna and is my main source of income these days. I do not run a potion vendor nor am I in any way or form a trader, I am just an avid shopper.
     
  44. LibraII

    LibraII Adventurer
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    Just thought I'd jump on the Band-Wagon that's derailing the post :D

    As a new shop owner in Luna (not trader, I've been around for years on and off), I try to stock as much as I physically can without burning myself into the ground!
    My prices are all designed to be fair, but EVERYTING I sell makes a profit, it's irelevant if it's 100g or 100,000g. 95%+ of my stock is obtained personally, but I do buy cheap and sell higher, especially if I am low on certain items.

    As regards to the keg discussion, I enjoy having a (fairly) well stocked vendor, but they are very time consuming to make and I wouldn't waste my time selling them at a minimal profit. As Serafi said it takes a LOT of work and time to create the kegs, and then fill them, thankfully I have a helpful partner who helps create them, else I just wouldn't bother selling them!

    Prices aren't set by the traders, they are set by the customers. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it, go get it / craft it yourself. Prices will soon come down if no-one is buying said item.
    2 days ago, Luna (and pretty much everywhere else I know of) sold out of Powder of Fortification, if no-one bought any for weeks on end, you'd see the price come back down to sub 100k levels, but people don't want to collect, fill and hand in bods. It's far easier to just go and buy one. Pretty much no-one in UO is short on gold anymore so prices have and will continue to raise, slowly buy surely.
    As I said before, if you don't like the cost os something, don't buy it!

    Everyone has the ability to get anything within UO, it's no good saying "I can't get x, y or z because I don't have a crafter"....make one, it's your choice NOT to have one!

    Anyways, that's my Two-Penneth worth.

    Just one more thought: If you don't like a price set by a vendor, haggle with the owner! I've sold items at a discount on occasions, and it never hurts to ask :)

    Libra.
     
  45. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    Respect is something you earn same as trust. I admit theres very few people in UO I respect.

    I know some people don't trust or respect me, wich doesnt matter to me since I do not respect them or their opinions.
    People base their respect or trust on many different things, since certain things matter more to some than others they all have different reasons.

    The people I respect and put their trust in me never been let down, I still transfer rares and such worth a lot of gold for Rare Collectors. I'm still able to borrow gold on most shards without having to worrying that nobody want to lend me 200-300m or exchange for gold on other shards.

    And ofcause other traders will use the cheaper sellers as suppliers because then they dont have to do any work, take a look at Europa banks how many traders actually stand there to buy or sell items. Its all become more and more out-of-game (ICQ, webpages, MSN) No need to be online to see what items people are selling no need to be online if you posted your "shopping list" on a webpage so people know what your buying/selling and for how much. We tried to offer traders items on the first 2 markets for what we paid for them wich was pretty cheap. 300K for CBDs - 50K for PoF - 500K for Soulstone Fragment Token - 500-800K for Ring of Vile just to name some of the items. Wich traders who signed up for the market was able to buy in bulk and resell at market. Those prices is what are "normal" on some shards, takes a little work to find good bargains if you go to other shards but it gives a great profit even if you sell cheaper. So an x-sharder might make more profit as a supplier than the trader thinks he makes from buying the cheaper items. Wich would make both parties happy.
    What happens when the suppliers stop ?
    The Trader has to do the work and that means less stock maybe or higher prices because of the more time that has to be spend on it.

    Some players even think Europa is expensive while if you visit some other shards Europa could be considered as cheap. Some items have a market value that might be 2-3x higher than what its being sold for on Europa. I remember when Seeds of Renewal cost 450-550K each on US shards.
    And please don't try and say its because of duped gold.... its the Economy the players get more for their items and can afford to spend more.
    But with time the prices become nearly the same because people have been transfering and buying up all the items that they can sell for more on their shard. Then the other shards naturally raises prices.

    I think its great if people want to sell low to people who actually uses the items instead of just reselling them. But they shouldnt expect it goes both ways.

    A tip to whoever likes mining or just have a lot of colored ingots. Valorite ingots sell for 500-800gp each on ATL. So when you see them for 150-200gp on Europa then its considered cheap.

    Event items given out is priced on items and how many there was given out. Take the Seed bag with Seed when they where dropped there was a hype and people paid 30-50m. few days later 10-20m. or the orchish armor and weapons some people sold them right when they got them for 30m the helms was sold for 200+ while the other items are valued from 85-165m.

    Don't just focus on one shard, the other shards also have items or lack of items and items are valued higher or lower than what they sell for on Europa. So try take a look at another shard, not to go there and sell just take a look at prices, Items and how many people actually are trading.

    - Prices:

    There is a market value on each item, it changes the more items there is out there and the more/less demand there is.
    Could you imagine paying 500K for 1K valorite ingots? I guess most wouldnt but on some shards its normal and for some people its normal to pay more than others. You can always say a player decide the prices if he doesnt want to pay that much for it then he wont. Some players do and then they buy it. The seller will still set the price he want, The seller might drop price if he gets to much stock or if the market value drops on the item. Players will wait for price to drop if they dont need the item right away.
    Some people sell below or above market value, nobody decides the prices. The market value is more of a guide to what you normalyl can get for an item.

    And if no competition clearly a trader would charge a higher price on items to get the most profit on them, so when other traders start selling the items for less. 3 choices : Keep it high priced --- Lower it to cheaper or same as the other one --- Buy the other one and keep being the only seller.
     
  46. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Perhaps I'll take up reselling.
    It hardly seems worth trying to be fair to the buyers, reading this.
     
  47. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter Gilfane

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    You forgot "and most likely used a search site to cheat ingame."...
     
  48. Crest Lavender

    Crest Lavender Babbling Loonie
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    I totally disagree on that! Respect is something you should have for everybody
    else - you may loose it due to some actions or views of and for someone - but it
    should be there in advance!

    Trust might be something a bit different - since i know some people see it as
    something that needed to be earned - i for my part do trust people until they
    proove the opposite! Thats my way.

    But with respect i really believe its some basic right of everyone at the beginning!


    by other people
     
  49. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    I'd never say it's because of duped gold - although that certainly didn't help - but rather, there is an infinite supply of gold, from every creature killed.

    Over time that means huge amounts available to 'spend', which partly affects how prices are determined, and it isn't likely to make GP prices fall...
     
  50. UOFree

    UOFree Guest

    Was more in general what people say about US shards and trading there.

    And its sad that duping and duped items will always be around, if you just take a look on Drach. They have duped Rubble for sale atm. The Blood Tiles on one vendor there is clearly duped since it weight the same. Identical rubble pretty hard to find so many of the same parts impossible I would say. So never gonna get rid of that and thats to bad.