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Meditation and Hiding : something does not add up ??

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by popps, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    There is something which I have a hard time understanding.

    That is, why on earth meditating while being hidden reveals oneself.

    I do not see how concentrating one's own brain waves might reveal oneself....
    Besides, mana regen items do not reveal so I do not see why should meditation reveal.

    I mean, yet again another minus for skills and plus for items to cater to an item based game rather than a skill based game ??

    I say that using the meditating skill while being hidden should NOT reveal oneself to put it on par with mana regen items.
     
  2. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    It's because in the UO world, meditation has a somatic component. Listen and you will hear folks going "OMMMMMMM" when they actively meditate.

    Hard to keep yourself hidden when you go OM'g aloud...



    Note that there is passive meditation though, where your character has achieved a oneness with the world that his/her body passively absorbs mana flowing in the air. This does not reveal you.

    Of course, characters that have have lots of practice in meditation is able to more readily absorb this flowing mana.

    But this is less effective compared to actively OM'g away.
     
  3. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    You're wrong. It's not "OMMMMM" it's "Monnnn-guhhhh-baaaatttt"
     
  4. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Verbal component. Somatic components are hand gestures, bodily movements, and the like.
     
  5. TheMac

    TheMac Guest

    Think about it. When someone meditates they sit on a floor cross their legs. In uo everyone is trained to jump as high as they can and land on their butts. Thus emmiting a loud sound. And when your so at peace with the world all the bad stuff comes out like gas. So it would be impossible to hide while your "letting it all go"
     
  6. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Technically, he was drawing a distinction from meditation as a process of focusing the mind completely internally vs. an actual physical focus, such as chanting a mantra. Somatic, in this case, is voluntary muscle control - which pretty much covers the physical act of voice production. So, you're both right, but he's more righter.
     
  7. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    only in uohall...

    thanks for the laughs...

    you guys rock.
     
  8. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    You reveal when meditating because you can no longer focus on hiding when you are focusing on meditating.
    You think it takes no effort to remain hidden in the middle of a wide-open field?
     
  9. Mairut

    Mairut Guest

    Roflmao...I was about to make the same point, but you did it better.
     
  10. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    I have a hard time understanding why you would analogize any aspect of reality as justification for game mechanics.

    The answer is that its the designers opinion of balance.
     
  11. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    POPPS you should take a week, maybe two play game, maybe on a new shard reinvigorate yourself with game. It is a fun game leave developers worries to them!!! Sometimes things are set to be difficult as/from legacy ideas but it makes game what it is!! Life isnt a path in UO like leveling in WOW go back to that, and try not to make UO WOW!!
     
  12. altarego

    altarego Guest

    For once (and probably the only time ever) I agree with popps. Certain skills: meditation, actively evaluating intelligence, forensic evaluation, item evaluation, arms lore, etc. should not break the state of being hidden. It just doesn't make much sense.
     
  13. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ugh, I think Meditation is the only skill that you listed that breaks hiding, lmao.
     
  14. popps

    popps Always Present
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    How is it that making Meditating skill not break Hiding would make Ultima Online as World of Warcraft ?

    By the way, for the record,I never ever played World of Warcraft and neither even tried it out.

    I do not see how having the Meditating skill have to break Hiding as it currently is, would enhance game play so much in Ultima Online.
    Actually, I happen to think that it hurts it besides not making much sense.

    Other skills do not break hiding and among them, Meditating seems to me the one that less likely should break Hiding. Not to mention that Mana Regen items allow to recover mana like the skill and they do NOT break hiding........

    Do we want to help skills over items ? Then at the very least let's have the Meditation skill not break Hiding just like Mana Regen items don't ..........
     
  15. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    Because you need to focus on meditating and while you are doing that you cannot attempt to keep yourself hidden.
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    So, by this logic on how "Meditation" works, how come Mana Regen items, instead, do NOT break hiding ??

    I mean, the end result IS the same, faster regain of Mana and yet, doing it with items does not break Hiding but doing it with the skill, does ??

    Excuse me ?
     
  17. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Balance ?

    What balance when using the meditation skill breaks hiding but using Mana Regen items which deliver the same end result does NOT break hiding ?

    Excuse me ?
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    This isn't a serious question is it? You're not actually trying to compare magic items that affect your passive regeneration rates to a skill are you?

    The mana regen items are NOT meditation. You don't activate them through meditation, you don't need meditation to wear those items. Mana regen bonus' affects your passive mana regeneration rate and are in no way related to a skill.

    When you're hiding you are focused on remaining undetected. When you're meditating you're focused on gathering mana. True meditation requires full focus, you can't focus on being undetected AND being in meditation at once. Hence once you do anything or get interrupted your meditation is broken.
     
  19. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    Is their a point to all of this? Honestly.
     
  20. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Popps, when the gong sounds to signal it's time to meditate, it means NO DISTRACTIONS!!

    In other words, if you want to meditate, you can't go peeking in a book or a chest of drawers or check your bulletin board. You can't start yammering at passersby. You can't start using armslore or item ID or forensic evaluation to scrutinize objects that are close at hand. You can't start idly picking at your lute. You can't try stealthing up on your best buddy and preparing to scare the wits out of him by yelling BOO! You can't try to mend your ragged leggings. You can't even put on a clean pair of shoes or boots or a fresh cloak. (You can, however, strip yourself naked, one piece of clothing at a time.) You can't play with the lights. You can't gobble a pizza to quiet the rumble in your empty stomach. You can't pull leaves off your plants. You can't be jumping on or off your pet.

    And, while you are meditating, you most certainly cannot try to marshal your energies to blend into your surroundings.

    Needless to say, if by some fluke you COULD hide and actively meditate at the same time, the gong you play to begin your meditation would certainly not be compatible with the idea of "hiding," now would it? It would be more like saying, "Here I am, buried deep in a trance, not paying any attention to my surroundings. I am OBLIVIOUS." Hiding, on the other hand, would seem to put you in a completely different state--one in which you are finely attuned to your surroundings and using all your energies to hide yourself within those surroundings.
     
  21. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Quit worrying about MR items, the mana regen speed is far slower than having actual med skill. Yes you can be hidden while you wear them, but you're going to do much more standing around than the player who has 120 med and regens in a fraction of the time.

    Wenchy
     
  22. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Far slower ? Really ?

    Then how come many players disregard the Meditation skill, entirely, and rely on Mana Regen and Lower Mana count items and use the 120 points for a skill more usefull ?

    My point is that the Meditation skill, as it is, is not even closely comparable in usefullness to Mana Regen items.

    Hence, I think something should be done to make the skill more usefull as in comparison to Mana Regen items. Allowing the meditation skill not to break hiding could be a good start.
     
  23. You're kidding right? Actively using the Meditation skill gives a much higher mana regen rate than any amount of MR items you could possibly have on any suit you feel like putting together. In order to get that high rate, you have to have a trade off. You can either hide and regen slowly, or you can not hide and regen much faster. This is called game balance. I'm sorry but the Devs are not going to make it so you can hide behind your GD and Med to regain mana lost from healing it. You can have one or the other, but you can't have both.

    Oh, and the "I've never played WoW" bull**** is nothing more than a fabrication on your part, as most of us remember you spouting off about it before your oh so dreaded return to UO recently, so you may as well give it up. We know you're full of it.
     
  24. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Perhaps I did not word it well in my earlier post, passive mana regeneration from the meditation skill does not require you to break out of hiding.

    MR 1 on equipment is equivalent to the mana you regen from having 10 points in the meditation skill. Passive mana regen from both of these sources do not reveal you.

    So if you were to compare with MR from items, you should compare it with the MR from passive meditation. Do you understand what I am saying?

    Also, MR from items has a diminishing effect. MR from passive med does not. That's why the skill trumps MR items.



    Active meditation allows you to turbo charge your mana regeneration to an even higher level. To balance that, there needs to be extra conditions you need to fulfil.

    Your posts normally seeks for balance between powerful and weak abilities, so you are actually the last person I expect to bring this up. Perhaps you did not consider passive med in your OP?
     
  25. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    popps, do you get paid for whining about UO on stratics forums? You should be lobotomized imo.
     
  26. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    Indeed, thanks for highlighting the motivation.

    I cannot understand how people can argue about the physics of a fantasy world.

    As soon as I can open a gate to the grocery store for me and my pet dragon such a discussion will be relevant.

    Ya know, I just can't resist popps. WHABT.
     
  27. HAHAHAHA :hahaha:

    Perhaps you've never read another thread started by Popps... is there ever any point? He argues both sides of the issue depending on how anyone replies. It's not worth the effort answering because his response is almost worse than the original question.

    :mf_prop:
     
  28. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Try using 120 med then swapping to a maxed out MR suit and 0 meditation and then tell me there's no difference Popps.

    I dropped med for MR when it was just as fast. I've since had to re-train it for my necro/weaver tamer because there's no way she can cast steadily with MR as her only mana regen. My other chars have used those skill points for other skills and have simply adapted to using as little mana as possible and taking breaks to regen mana.

    Passive meditation with only MR items works...eventually. If you don't mind having to wait a few minutes to regen, during which you have to stay out of trouble if you rely on casting to heal, invis etc. Imagine your guild friends die during a spawn, you can res 2, maybe 3, but can't heal them because you won't regen fast enough to heal the next guy. Now a mage with meditation can meditate actively and regen back up much faster. I've been alongside other mages in that situation and it's a very obvious difference.

    You do not need to meditate while hidden to have a significant advantage over MR users - it's already there. If you doubt that, go onto test centre and try it out.

    That's before we consider how much of a boost the stealth mage templates would get if they didn't have to reveal to meditate lol.

    Wenchy
     
  29. Actually, you forget sympathetic systems, parasympathetic systems, autonomic responses, etc.

    Such as blood pressure, heart rate and respiration. All that can be controlled with meditation to various degrees.

    Somatization is a physical response or sensation.

    So my answer... in order to hide you are actively attempting to do something. Your focus is on controlling your body to remain hidden.

    You cant do that (actively hide) when you shift to meditating. Its a completely different process. Unless of course you are hidden under things. But most of hiding in uo is done behind a tiny blade of grass.
     
  30. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Not me, definately. I never played World of Warcraft.
    Please let me know in what post I may have ever said I played it because I find that odd since I didn't.........
     
  31. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The thing is, that when actively meditating one can't do nothing else but that.
    Not much usefull in a messy combat situation, is it ??

    Could be ok when training a skill, writing up scrolls, but which active situation can afford one to sit and just meditate ? Not many.....

    Therefore, active meditation is made an activity for once in a blue moon....

    What people use, mostly, is passive meditation. A Regen item suit with 12 mana regen equals 120 meditation skill so, by bye to the skill and get something else instead...

    What I am trying to say, is that active meditation as it is makes it hardly usefull other than in a peacefull setting (i.e. for example train/scribing scrolls.....).

    Perhaps something should be done to make active meditation more possible in situations other than mostly training a skill up or scribing scrolls ??
     
  32. Assia Penryn

    Assia Penryn The Sleeping Dragon
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    Agreed.
     
  33. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Popps, you simply need to time meditation bursts to when you're safest - eg right after you drop an EV on something. I really can't see why you have such an issue here - this is something most mages just "do" To suggest it's "once in a blue moon" says to me that you need some practice in timing and running your mage efficiently.

    For starters you can meditate in bursts, you don't have to run your mana down to zero before stopping to med all the way up. You can plan ahead when you're hunting so you have a safe area to dart to and med up. It's surprisingly easy with a little practice.

    Wenchy
     
  34. I disagree and think Med works just fine as it is. That doesn't mean you don't have to learn to live with the few limitations, but it can be done. Find a spot where you won't be targeted then meditate, or if in PvM, you can honor yourself and then meditate.
     
  35. You need to learn how to play your character, plain and simple. Quit whining to change things when you don't even know how to play. Funny how you're the only mage in UO history that has ever had a problem with Med and not being able to hide in safety in a combat situation.

    Learn how to play the game. Once you actually have some useful knowledge, then, maybe, just maybe, someone might pay attention to your daily rant.
     
  36. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    Meditate

    to engage in mental exercise (as concentration on one's breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness

    Cant very well do that while trying to keep yourself hidden. Your armor however doesn't have to meditate.
     
  37. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    No he's not. Historically, fantasy RP magic involves three styles of components: Verbal, Somatic, and Material. Sometimes a fourth: Mental.

    So no, he's not. :p
     
  38. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I disagree.

    The process of hiding oneself can be laborious (find a shelter, a wall to break line of sight, whatever else....), but AFTER one has succesfully found a hiding place, THEN, I do not see why one could not concentrate within the safety of that hiding shelter to meditate actively....
     
  39. i would agree with meditating while hiding only if it applies to the hiding skill only (maybe at 100%). not with with invisible spells, which i'm guessing the OP wants. not many mages use hiding, so it would be an added perk for such skill layout.
     
  40. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    You all keep falling for the tricks of the most dedicated-never-leave-character troll that ever plagued this board.

    Popps - Legendary Troll.
     
  41. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Not to be pedantic here, but that was exactly my point. Was I being too obtuse in associating skills that shouldn't break the hidden state?
     
  42. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I think the issue is that you redundantly listed skills that don't break hiding as skills that shouldn't break hiding, while groups with a skill that does break hiding.
     
  43. Restroom Cowboy

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    POOPS...what is this crap?

    Using a skill vs. wearing an item? No comparison. One is a skill, one is something you WEAR! How the hell do you really expect to tie the two together?

    As far as the rest of your nonsense on the subject...:wall:
     
  44. Except that is not how the hiding skill is portrayed in Ultima. I would reflect more on the fact that hiding in Ultima is more closely related to the act of being camouflaged, thus making yourself appear as the environment (aka invisible).

    In the sense you are refering too, you should just simply run around, find a place to sit, perhaps a cave?, and meditate.
     
  45. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    *chortle*

    I'm not going to argue about it -- because it doesn't make a difference to do so.

    It's the way it is, because it's the way the devs designed it.

    Most players in the game know how to deal with the limitation, and thus don't need it changed. At 115 med, with the passive mr I can sit and cast low level spells all day long. When I do mana dumps (summons or multiple strikes) I just need to move away or find a spot to do a little active med before I jump back into the battle.

    You see, Mages and Sorceresses have to run away like little girls to keep fighting. They don't stand toe-to-toe with a dragon and expect to keep fighting. Even with mage weapons and all 70's armor, you just don't have the abilities to fight hand to hand.

    So, you have to take a break and "go talk to the spirits" now and then.

    As for the other poster comparing Med to eval int, item id and other knowledge skills -- sorry, med is NOT a knowledge or examination skill. It is a regeneration skill, like healing. If you wanted to compare skillsets, you should have compared med to healing. Which absolutely NO one would agree starting a bandage should keep you hidden.

    Especially a mage :pancakes:

    You all keep arguing, this is funny.

    :popcorn:
     
  46. Healing isn't a regen skill. The only two regen skills (that I'm aware of) are meditation and focus. Focus is the opposite of meditation in the fact that it is constantly "active" meaning you do not have to activate the skill in order to take advantage of the mana regeneration bonus. That was really the only difference between meditation and focus (aside from the fact that focus has a slower regen) up until they started amending the use of the meditation skill to accomodate MR changes.

    I will agree with you though that I like the way the system is currently set too. It seems balanced out well as it is. There is always a trade off with skills, and with meditation, well I guess you just can't use it "actively" while hidden.
     
  47. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Actually, I meant the hiding skill..........
     
  48. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I honestly do not see why one could not meditate silently while being camouflaging.......
     
  49. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I often hear this argument and, honestly, I have to say that it keeps making no sense to me.

    If things were static because "it's the way it is" well, then mankind would still be living in caves.......

    That something is in a way it means nothing, it can always be changed. It is the human nature (luckily, IMHO) of changing things.



    I am sorry, but when I see that people pack their suits with Mana Regen mods, pick up lich form or pump up their weapons with mana leech mods and what not, then I must conclude that something is dead wrong with the design of how the meditation skill works.

    If players need to find "work arounds" rather than using a skill designed to the purpose well, IMHO something is dead wrong with the design of that skill and of how it works.

    Hence, it needs be changed and bettered so that players actually use THAT skill for what it was designed, rather than work arounds of various forms....