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Mesanna, Gypsies, Moonstone Jewelry, and Tents

Discussion in 'UHall' started by KLOMP, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    From the last Ask & Answer:

    There were gypsy spawns in UO from 1997 onward and they weren't a problem until you guys added tents to them (for no good reason) and those tents started causing objects in houses to delete.

    Why did you respond to this by terminating the spawns?

    Why didn't you just remove the tents?

    When are we getting gypsies back?

    Just randomly breaking things and then taking them out instead of fixing them can only be described as damaging the game.
     
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  2. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrr, me misses the orc/lizardman camp spawns on Ice Island and the Lost Lands. And the brigand camps at Trinsic!
     
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  3. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    The memory ain't what it used to be, but weren't there always tents as well? If i remember correctly, something was done that broke the tents, so they were removed to be fixed and never fixed till years and years later? But evidently broke when they were "fixed" and put back ingame...but I could def be wrong.
     
  4. Tangled Metal

    Tangled Metal Lore Master
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    Tents that spawned under the wings of Large Stone Towers sometimes unlocked the things on them. That was one of the main reasons for not letting them spawn. Another spawn I miss is the evil mage towers. I loved getting the blood tiles out of them. I know they changed the spawn area to just outside of wrong but then they turned them off all together because of a memory leak problem or something. It seems sometimes this game has more bandaids than game...
     
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  5. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    The problem wouldn't be the bandage if they didn't amputate the limb. If they actually stitched the wound and put in a repair instead of just hacking off the offending limb at the base every time there is a splinter in the finger.
     
  6. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The moonstone jewerly drops on Fezzik the Ogre Cook, but the drop-rate seems to be less than 5% (I've killed 20-22 of them) I've found no moonstone jewerly.

    I always thought the tents spawned with the gypsies from the beggining, and were removed for a while as well.
     
    #6 CovenantX, Nov 17, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  7. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    cant they just make them spawn in areas with no houses? seems easy ? i can mark some runes for them lol
     
  8. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    The problem is not the Tent.

    The Tent issue could be solved rather easily. Moonstone Jewelry caused a huge incident when npc Gypsies became the target of the players trying to obtain those rare jewelry pieces. With a drop rate of 1 in 25,000, most players -having no skill to unlock the chests- started to kill npc Gypsies in the game.

    Gypsies actually exist in the real world. There is a term for the hostility directed at the Gypsies, Antiziganism, and throughout their history, they were subject to persecution, including forced assimilation, humiliation and ultimately holocaust. The real tragedy is so sad that it has no place to be in UO. There is no other ethnic group in UO that you can freely kill in large numbers -there are no Orcs, Lizardmen or Ophidians in the real world- and I believe this is the case for other games as well. The developers were quick enough to see the issue and removed the innocent (blue) Gypsies.

    This is just a case of sensitivity. If the Gypsy Camps will return, I think all of the npc gypsies will be invulnerable (yellow) so that we don't see that type of an incident again.
     
    #8 Nimuaq, Nov 17, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
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  9. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Oh yeah? You know that for sure? Because it sure sounds like something that is hard to fix, and ends up never getting fixed to me. The whole gypsy killing thing WAS indeed in poor taste, but I don't think anyone cared really. It was greed, not hate crimes that lead to the death of those poor pixel gypsys.
     
  10. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    If it was just stoopid political correctness that was the problem, They should have just made the gypsies invulnerable.
    Part II: If they didn't want to have the gypsies killed...they should have come out up front and said "THE DESIRED JEWELRY ONLY SPAWNS IN THE CHEST, NOT ON THE GYPSIES!".

    At the time, it was explained to a few of us that the gypsies were the ones with the jewels...

    This is where direct and accurate communication comes in...
     
  11. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    Make the camps only spawn in Ilshenar -or restrict the spawn to areas where housing is not allowed- was one of the earlier solutions that didn't require a lot of coding.

    They actually stated that in the publish notes:

     
    #11 Nimuaq, Nov 17, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  12. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Just spawn the camps in Ilshenar and T2A... problem solved?

    Come to think of it... just having the various types of camps spawning around T2A at random with interesting goodies (specifically the southern portion) would bring a bit more life to the place I would think.
     
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  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    That's assuming its just a matter of turning it on. Time has shown me that the code on this game is a mess, and things that may seem simple as pie to players are actually very complicated.
     
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  14. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Political correctness? Yeah, being fair to people is so awful isn't it? (NSFW Comedy )



    If I recall correctly, there were a few people of Gypsy descent on Stratics who complained directly about it; but even if my memory is wrong, encouraged farming of an NPC that exists as defined only by their ethnic, and real world identity would not be a wise move from a moral or even pragmatic perspective... no company is going to be willing to fund an MMO that's so unconcerned about their potential audiences reaction, just to support self centred demands for an abstract freedom to be able to cause offence without having to face the real world consequences of where your swinging verbal fists are landing; because their lawyers will make sure they absolutely will be aware of just how much they'd have to pay if someone tried to take action due to the resulting controversy, and their economists and marketing departments will be saying how much revenue could be lost in turn; Call it political correctness gone mad if you want, but they're still correct to be concerned about that perception.
    And it's not even a new thing; EA/OSI quietly removed Zog from Ultima's history when the modern meaning of it changed to ZOG and became extremely offensive... Considering Ultima has always been driven by Garriott's sense of Virtues in an other-worldly setting, if you really want an MMO where you get to fight over the right to be offensive, or defend political concepts of fairness on Earth, you're in entirely the wrong place; you probably want World War 2 Online instead...
     
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  15. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    We could go on and on about that, but I see no use in it. yall carry on
     
  16. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    If I remember correctly, the drop rate of the jewelry was originally like 1 in 20,000 or 1 in 25,000 or something insane like that, so I am pretty sure the drap rate wasn't changed.

    I spent 2+ weeks farming for it 8 hours a day and didn't get one.
     
    #16 NuSair, Nov 17, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  17. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I don't really care if they leave the moonstone jewelry in a dungeon or even remove it completely. But if the gypsy spawns used to have tents, it was at least more than 10 years ago.

    Then someone went "Hey lets put those tents back!" and when it caused a problem they turned off...

    * All the gypsy spawns
    * All the orc camp spawns
    * All the lizardman camps
    * All the brigand camp spawns

    Plus NPC paladins are extinct now for some reason. I mean this is just small but apparently permanent damage rendered to the game due to sloppy development. It makes UO a shabbier place.
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    What paladins? There are still plenty of them around. Or do you mean the one spawn of paladins they always attacked low-karma players and were very tough? I think they only spawned in T2A
     
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  19. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Well to be honest tents were in the original gypsys spawns back in 97 to be quite truthfull all the dev had in mind was to restart the spawn a past Dev team removed and do other upgrades to the shards ...
    When the tents were reintroduced to the game the Dev had no idea they would cause any problems till reports started of the loss's.
    It was the Dev who wisely stopped the spawns alltogether to get to the bottom of it.
    Now I do want to point out a few things players might have forgotten.
    The original code for the tents was not what was used to reinstall them. As many here can justify that the old code and new realy hate eachother.
    Now to restart the gypsys might not be vaible as the coding for it has been updated and the old original might have been superseeded by the new code and that old code lost.
    This being the possible case.
    Its in our best intrest to let them do the line by line of the code matching to see what is causeing it. Now I will say I miss the spawns, I have a thing for poping the kegs n chests.
     
  20. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Vague.

    Much better follow-up. Just saying, you make valid points, no need stop short with "damaging the game." Glad you expounded your claim.

    I too would like to see all the camps spawn again. Of course, I don't often hunt or travel around where camps spawn, so I haven't noticed one way or the other. Would be nice for new players.

    I was in the group that thought it was kind of ****ed up to kill gypsies, but mostly because they're innocent NPCs rather than a race of people. I want to kill evil **** but then I become evil myself, because, really, where did all those artifacts come from? Why would the monsters be carrying them if not because they stole them off some dead, innocent dude? And why am I hoarding loot instead of finding out who owned the loot?

    So yeah, honestly, opening a debate regarding good morals in UO is fruitless. The greed which fueled gypsy killing isn't atypical to the greed which fuels the farming of anything in the game. Who are we to decide who gets to die? Video games are perverse and we should all be ashamed for setting foot in any kind of moral debate.

    And the devs removed the gypsies mostly because of people losing items, not so much because of the whole gypsy killing thing. I do think the gypsy killing was on their minds, but it definitely wasn't the main reason they got rid of the gypsies. After all, it's kind of ironic to prevent gypsies from being in the game at all to appease those who were against the gypsies dying.
     
    #20 G.v.P, Nov 18, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  21. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Go to Trinsic. Go to that fort near Delucia. There are no paladins.
     
  22. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ah, so you do mean those crazy ones. But if you go to Luna, there are paladins.
     
  23. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I mean the paladin NPCs that spawned in plate armor and walked around town and could be hired. The ones that had been in the game from 1997 until like the last year or so. NOT the weird T2A things that would attack negative-karma players, and NOT the two "keeper of chivalry" book vendors in Luna.

    How long have you been playing?
     
  24. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Wow, a little sensitive aren't we. So sorry if I offended you. Assuming you still play, you should have been aware that paladins still spawn. Since you were referring to a specific type of paladin spawn, you should have been a little more clear.

    I remember the ones that spawned in Delucia, and my encounter with them always involved them chasing me like mad-men since I always had low karma on my main. There may have been the non-crazy paladins in there but they certainly didn't make any impression on me, never used hirelings. Thus, those were really the only paladins I ever cared to remember. However I don't see how complete knowledge of the paladin NPCs should matter in relation to how long someone has played. But if it really matters, sometime around late 1999 or very early 2000, don't remember exactly. Best marker I can give you is that I started just before the classic Trinsic invasion. I was scared to death of that place, lol.
     
    #24 Viper09, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  25. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    In any case, bugging an existing feature and then removing that feature rather than rolling it back to a previous iteration is just really unprofessional software development, and I defy anyone to say otherwise.
     
  26. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    KLOMP:

    Software can be really strange.

    For my freshman programming final in 1985, I had to write a complete business software suite from a hot dog stand in FORTRAN 77 (which is decidedly NOT an appropriate language for such a venture, even in the 300/1200 baud modem days.)

    I had the inventory, sales, timekeeping and payroll modules done, along with the core program. All that was lacking was the check-printing module.

    I had a test program to where I could use a copy of the program's data files to run each module separately, before including it into the final program.

    • The test version of the check printing ran.
    • The entire program, minus the check printer, ran.
    • I added the check printer to complete the program, and NOTHING ran.
    • I removed the check module. Nothing ran.
    • I went back to the BACKUP copies (saved elsewhere) from before the attempted merger. NEITHER BACKUP WOULD RUN ANYMORE, separate or together.
    Not even the head of the CS department could figure out why.

    Moral of the story: sometimes not even exact backups are enough, when the computer tiki gods turn their evil eye on you.
     
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  27. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I'm just making a stink so it gets included in this big "bug push".
     
  28. Lord Nabin

    Lord Nabin High Council Sage - Greater Sosaria
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    I will take a Polish dog with some Hot Mustard... Please! Any Pretzels?
     
  29. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Also, I'd be more accepting if they gave us an actual explanation rather than just turning the spawns off and pretending the gypsy ones didn't exist before moonstone jewelry.
     
  30. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Klomp sweety
    They did.
    Mesanna anounced that the spawn was going off cause it was poofing and they had no idea of how to stop it at that time.. people were loosing valuable things. She weighed the cost to players vs the players need of the spawn.
    Look I dont doubt its on the todo list. Give the team time. Code is not all the same and with the layers of it over lapping it might take a bit.
     
  31. Lady CaT

    Lady CaT Seasoned Veteran
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  32. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    They said "Oh gypsy tents are deleting items so we're turning the spawn off!" with never any attempt to explain...

    * Why they didn't just remove the tents
    * Why they felt tents were needed in the first place
    * Why all the orc/brigand/lizardmen camps were removed as well
     
  33. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Do we really need to answer this one? Are you not aware that they do not function at all like the gypsy camps? Just because it includes the word "camp" doesn't mean it's the same as the gypsy spawns...
     
    #33 Viper09, Nov 24, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  34. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    The orc/lizardman camps having nothing to do with gypsy camps makes their removal MORE inexplicable, not less.
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I am simply questioning why you are even comparing the two. The orc/lizardman camps do not behave at all like the gypsy camps nor did they ever cause any problems. Thus I fail to see why you are even bringing them up and claiming that they make the removal of the gypsy spawns more inexplicable.
    But please, explain. You have a habit of making very vague arguments followed by irrational anger at people for not understanding you.
     
    #35 Viper09, Nov 24, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  36. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Look man, maybe you just need to start paying more attention. The orc/lizardman camps are gone, they've been gone, they were removed when the gypsy camps were removed, that fact has been posted in this thread repeatedly, you've responded to some of those posts, and your responses do not make even one solitary lick of sense.

    I mean you do realize that I'm asking why the orc/brigand/lizardman camps are removed, right? Not why they remain? Because they are gone. Go read the posts again. The fact that they "never cause any problems" makes it more strange that they are gone, not less.

    I don't really know what to tell you if you're not going to read the posts.
     
    #36 KLOMP, Nov 25, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  37. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    All the software for them used the same coding is why. When they over wrote the one it quite possibly hit all and Mesanna and the dev crew didnt want to take that chance. Best to do all.
    I understand you might not "do " software techno speak. So here it is in a nut shell you might understand.

    Each time a set of instructions is given to the software it changes the way it acts, and operates.
    The original software was from the early to mid 90's and was back when it was in its primitive stages. Its sucessors didnt mesh well (play nice) so it made for tons of bugs. Well what one dev took away the most recient dev wanted to return under popular demand. So they made it happen. Only something is off, so rather then leave us all to have major problems they wisely took them all down.
    All the spawns might have the same old code with a few different lines to denote what kind of spawn. ie: lizzard/orc/etc...
    Cause it might be a problem now interwoven into the old code they need all of it off.
    Like frosting a cake you divide the frosting and add a different dye to it for color. Its still the basic white frosting underneath. Same with the spawn code I imagine.
    They cant just turn on one with out the possible bug being passed to it. So rather then doing what a past dev did and let it ride till more bugs show up they pulled all. (long ago that past dev had them spawn in peoples homes, not a nice thing to log into)
    Give Mesanna and the Dev the chance to find the buggy part and fix it. ok?
     
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  38. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    There have been many bugs that have cropped up in various features over the years. This is the only case I can think of where the relevant feature was deleted as a result, rather than being rolled back or repaired.
     
  39. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Unfortunatly the bug was not so evident at the first go round when a roll back was in the relm of do-able.
    Roll backs can happen within a week of publish, most times though the Dev frown on having to go that long as it could disrupt play to a greater degree.
    If my memory serves me right it was reported here in stratics as many were noticing things were poofing as the spawns poped in.
    This sent most of us to check our homes and double check the types of spawns that happened around us.
    I myself lost a chest of things I would have thought not reachable by this. In many of my castles I still have a few spots where the goza's are still missing and just had the last carpet chunk removed by a GM.(I must have missed it when I had them come the first time) The spawns were causing trouble on mundaine stuff as well as the rares players were having on display. A roll back was out of the question by this time.
    As I said about the repair part... To repair something one first must know whats busted. Bugs are tricky bits, they can be as benign as a "," put in the wrong spot in a line of code. Or so big that its a elephant you cant see past. This one is very elucive. Give the dev time. I remember well the hunt for bugs in my day in the code.... not a fun time.