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MESANNA, is there any chance to have the Cures turn in system changed ?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    From a number of threads I have read and noticed on the argument, it seems to me that the system which compares players' cures turn in to assess right to rewards to the top players turning cures on any given shard, is not much appreciated by several players and, actually, it may have deterred several players (me included) from even participating since they felt that they simply did not have (unfortunately) enough time to play the game to even think to try to get anywhere close to the number of cures' turn ins that some powergamers on their shard might reach.

    Worse, a fear that with the current system bugs me is, what if on a shard I play I have the bad luck that there is some players scripting parts of the cures' process ? There is no way that I could possibly compete and therefore, no chance for me to get past a sash, if at all.

    So, I wonder, is there any chance that you Developers could be so kind to change the system from what it is to actually set the 4 rewards to a finite number of cures so that ALL players can actually know that by turning in X number of cures they WILL get reward # 1, reward # 2, reward # 3 and reward # 4 ?

    Want to limit their number ? Fine, make them obtainable 1 per type for each character or even 1 reward of each of the 4 types per account per shard. I have no problem with that.

    I just would like to KNOW that if I spend my time into making cures and turning them in I WILL get my 4 rewards once I make and turn in enough cures as set.........

    Of course, if my proposition is reasonable and feasible, the time window to players to make and turn in cures should be made one -from the moment the change to the system is introduced-, that will reasonably allow, even to a casual player who so far has not participated to this Event because the current design was deterring him/her from participating due to a very low perception of a probability that the effort and time invested would materialize into some actual nice reward (past the sash that is...), to actually have a reasonable time allocated to make and turn in enough cures to earn all the 4 rewards.

    What I am trying to say, is that if you find it reasonable to make the change and set a number of cures that would require a casual player playing the game, say, 5 hours a week, some 20 hours work in game to make and turn in the required number of cures to earn the 4 rewards, then the Event should be left going on for at leats another month after the newly introduced change so as to allow even to a casual player playing an average of 5 hours a week who so far has not bothered participating to the Event since they felt their in game time was insufficient to succesfully compete, to be able to work and earn all of their 4 rewards after the new changes.

    Thank you very much.
     
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  2. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    ^^ Gets my vote
     
  3. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Wow, I agree with Popps. I'm scared now. :eek:

    Rewards for the cures should always have been based on a linear progression, not the "competition without a scoreboard" design that was published. Pitting those with no life outside the game against those who manage to balance things will only lead to anger aimed at the Devs.
     
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  4. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    popps, I think/hope the UO team is on a schedule with the live events, building up to something big that should happen in mid to late September to coincide with the game's 15th anniversary. I doubt they have the luxury of time at this point to further stretch out the time for turning in the gargoyle cures. Mesanna mentioned back in May during the Wayback Wednesday live stream by folks from mmorpg.com that the EMs designed the current arc. If that means the EMs also came up with the design for this quest, I think you're asking for the impossible if you think that she or the EMs will actually come here and try to explain what they were hoping to accomplish within the community with the design of this quest or that they have the time right now to change it.

    I actually hope that the rules for this event stay just the way they are for this reason: The final results will give the UO event designers as accurate as possible of an idea of how this quest ranks in popularity with other quest-type events they've done in the past. If they start tweaking the cure quest now, any statistics they gather from it would, in my opinion, have questionable validity and be of very limited use for designing future events. I think they should leave it alone, let it finish, and use the results they collect internally and our feedback here on the forums and submitted via the feedback form on the official website for designing future events.

    I grew vanilla and sugart on Origin in June in preparation for this event, tried it, and stopped after I got my first cure made and then dropped it in a bankbox as a souvenir for this year's event. For a variety of reasons, it just wasn't something I wanted to stick with and I consciously decided to stop at that point and spend my time doing other things in UO. From what I've seen so far, checking at the sick gargoyles' camp a few times during shard prime times and only seeing two or three people total there across 26 shards, seeing cure ingredients discarded in bulk on the ground in Haven on a number of shards, and noticing how many EMs have recently held events to "teach" people how to get the ingredients for the cure, I don't think it's been an extremely popular quest with most other players either.

    Regardless of how this particular quest ranks in popularity with players at this time, there's nothing to stop EA from making the reward items from this quest (or replicas of them) available in the future as random and immediate rewards from a permanent quest if they turn out to be something players really want. I think at this point in time, if you want one of the reward items but don't want to do the quest, start saving your gold from doing stuff you actually enjoy doing in UO (or your pennies, since those items will certainly end up being listed on the illegal search sites as high-priced "buy it now" items) to buy it from someone else. Try to just accept this quest for what it is, give feedback through official channels, move on, and spare yourself the stress of worrying about it.
     
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  5. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Wait. UO has scriptors?

    Yeah we're all competing with em, its not just on your shard Popps. Too late this time around, might as well move on to something else.
     
  6. Myphsar

    Myphsar Lore Keeper
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    I have some free time right now, i spent it doing this, i dont script, why do i have to be punished because others do?
    Ive done many cures, all by hand, all got by myself, they made the rules back in early june, to change them now is an insult to the people that have put in there time (honestly)
    I know not everyone could be bothered with it back in june, but me and some others were (i know 5+ others on my shard that started in june, all people i know not to script)
    Why should we all waste our time and have the rules change now because you are not winning?
    And before anyone says it, Yes i have a life, and no i dont live in my moms basement.
     
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  7. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    As ever, once something like this is live in the game and people have had chance to play it legitimately, it's unfair to change the rules part way through. Problem stems from making it a competitive thing from the start, I have no clue why it was decided that was a good idea for a story-driven 'quest chain', but they did and we have to accept that's how it is being done.

    Hopefully though, they won't do it again..... especially with something that can be scripted for resources.:twak:
     
  8. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, perhaps it cannot be adjusted to a better system, perhaps it can..... who knows, I thought about asking just in case there is some room to make adjustments.......

    Besides, I think that making adjustments for the better when the course heading is not promising is usually a good thing. I mean, why leave something malfunctioning when it can be made better with a few adjustments ? How can improvements be seen as a bad thing ?

    I mean, if several players see the current system as wrong, and adjustments to it in the sense I imagined as an improvement, then how could these adjustments be seen as wrong ?

    Sure, if there is no time or resources then tough luck, I can well understand that but hey, if we do not ask Mesanna how can we know if there is room to make the system adjusted to what several players feel would be a better system ?
     
  9. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Are you seriously suggesting changing the rules half way through a short term event game people are already playing is a GOOD idea? Even for you that's bizarre .....
     
  10. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Changing the system to a set number of cures to earn the 4 rewards would not deprive players of their 4 rewards as long as they meet the set amount of cures required.

    How would you or anyone else be penalized by a change ? You worked for the 4 rewards and, since you have been turning in enough cures, you would get them.

    If other players get them and use them what is the big deal ? You would get your 4 rewards, then I do not see how other players also getting theirs and have fun with them could hurt other players...

    I think that ALL players, regardless how lucky they might be to be able to spend extensive time playing UO should be entitled to get their 4 rewards and enjoy playing the entertainment service they are paying for using them.
     
  11. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I have a hard time understanding how changing a course might be bizarre in those cases where the heading might be a wrong one. If the current system is a good one, well accepted by players and well participated then leave it as it is, but if instead it is seen as a wrong one, deterring players from participating because of the way it is (as I seem to understand from various posts and from fellow players in game...), then I do not see how making adjustments while on the way could be seen as wrong when it is intended to better it......
     
  12. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Because if people were intending to work towards the original description, " the system which compares players' cures turn in to assess right to rewards to the top players turning cures on any given shard" as you yourself explain it, they should be able to do that without having the rules changed part way through? Or is even that too hard for you to grasp ...

    I intend getting one or two of the cures for a couple of my characters (for me that's enough of a 'reward') but it they tell someone it is a competition for whoever makes the most to get something, they should stick to that for the duration of the 'quest', and hopefully not make such a silly mistake again in future - but once it's done, it's done.
     
  13. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    The competition aspect of this event was called into question when Pub 76 hit May 21st, there were grumblings before then by those who read the spoilers.

    These lines are the troublemakers: (emphasis mine)
    Top contributors? What does that mean exactly? Are we being graded on a curve? Could ONE PERSON throw off that curve for their shard and be the only one to receive the arms? Does this seem like good game design? Is it "fun"?

    The "possibility" of not receiving anything is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. Even if someone only turns in one or two cures, give them a sash. The universe isn't going to rip asunder if everyone walks away with a token of participation. It's. A. Sash.

    The Devs heard the grumblings two months ago and did nothing. The Devs CODED the damn event and nobody stopped to ask themselves if this was "fun," or if a majority of players would enjoy it? Really? Decisions made in a vacuum rarely turn out well.

    Again: Event reward tiers should have been on a linear progression with defined goals for the players. Players like goals.
     
    #13 Martyna Zmuir, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  14. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I still do not understand it.

    Competition or not, the goal is to get the rewards and have fun using them.

    For example, having 2 players per shard (the top ones for turn ins...) get them and use them would just make the rest of the players of that shard upset and frustrated with the game. Not good for the game as I see it....

    Having instead more players be able to get the 4 rewards would leave those 2 top players still happy as they got their rewards and will be able to have fun using them but it would ALSO get more players be able to be happy with the game since they also got their rewards and will be able to use them.

    I do not see how having more players happy rather than fewer can ever be a bad thing for the game.

    I thought we wanted to have Ultima Online have more subscriptions active as possible and this, I would imagine, requires players being happy with the game not frustrated and unhappy.....
     
  15. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    You're making sense.

    *waits for other signs of the apocalypse*
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I agree wholeheartedly with that and I have often said it in my posts that wherever possible the planning of Events should be done alongside with those who actually will play the Event : the players.......

    I have heard way too often the argument that it is too late to change anything when it has been designed, coded and released to the general public (I hear it being said even now...). Well, then WHY ON EARTH the general public was not made part of the design and planning when it was still possible to make changes and adjustments for the better ?

    I even heard at times the argument that even the test server may be too late to make significant adjustments to design perceived by players as flawed other than fine tuning some bugs. Then, I wonder, if it is always too late when players complain (which is when they get a chance to see how the thing works...) well, then give to players the chance to have their saying when there is still time to make adjustments which is, when things are STILL on the drawing board........

    That's at least as I see it.
     
    #16 popps, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
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  17. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Aye all players should be able to have the chance to achive an item, not just the select few
     
    #17 Winker, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
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  18. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I have a problem with scripting not having been eradicated in Ultima Online. I cannot possibly be interested in investing whatever little time I may have to play the game to try to compete in game Events where scripting might be a significant factor affecting my loss.

    If something can be scripted I know that not scripting I cannot have a chance to even think to get anywhere close since the time I can spend in the game is quite limited for me, unfortunately. So why should I even bother trying only to then be left with a bitter taste that I wasted my little time in the game towards a hopeless goal ?

    Things would be way different instead, if I knew that by turning in X cures I would earn my right to the rewards. In this different scenario, I could not care less about scripters or players able to spend more time in the game than me because they would not affect my ability to get my rewards. I would have a goal to reach by making and turning in a known number of cures, I would work for it and get them. Personally, I would think this a much, but much better system.
     
    #18 popps, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  19. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Because Mesanna likes secrets. Because the Devs use EMs as their think tank. As much as I like the EMs, it's terribly shortsighted to use a fraction of the community already firmly in your pocket to gernerate or bounce ideas off of...
     
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  20. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I can sure understand the pluses of surprises and thus secrecy but those, as I see it, pertain more to the details then to general ideas.

    I mean, let's take this one Event, as an example.

    Asking to players before hand whether they would have preferred a winners' takes all type of thing (as it is now) or rewards delivered to all players upon reaching a set number of tasks (as many would have preferred) would have been spilling the beans ? I do not think so. But it would have probably made it for a more popular Event and less frustrated players........

    So, I think it does is possible to include players into design maintaining secrecy and without necessarily spilling the beans, it all depends how it is done........
     
  21. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    popps i actually agree here, with you that they should weight reward to those that strived over the time to make them, if account has none made to this point lock them out though!!!!!!!!

    this is in regards to most of your posts, complaining stuff if worked is unfair to rest

    so benefit most of those that did the work this event fix it for next!!!!!! if you havnt done one quest yet lol you should be locked out ps i havent done any :)

    too many time whiner post at end of events get gifted, you maybe milking cause and efffect !!!!!!
     
  22. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, but this would not be fair towards all those players who, due to their limited time in the game (unfortunately) thought their efforts as helpless from the very beginning.

    How can a player only capable of playing the game a few hours over the weekend compete with other players who can spend way more time making cures and turning them in ?

    If the system is changed, then I can only think it as fair to offer to all those players who thought left out of this Event from start because of the limited time they could spend on it, to be then left their opportunity to earn their rewards by giving to these players enough time to make and turn in whatever set amount of cures will be decided to earn the 4 rewards.

    No player should be left out from having fun with the game and earning rewards I see it as part of the fun. Therefore, regardless of the time any player may be able to play in the game any and all players should be allowed the right to earn their rewards.

    That's as I see it.

    I do not see a request of a fair game for players regardless of how much time they can spend in the game as whining. It is just a request I feel in the best interest of the game, incidentally.

    Do we want to send a message (that I feel as wrong and hurting to the game) to players that only those who can spend extensive time in Ultima Online will get the most fun ?
    How many players can then expect to be able to spend extensive time in the game ? I would imagine them as a minority. I expect the vast majority of players of UO to be casual players who can spend only a few hours a week playing it.

    Therefore, I would imagine, that sending a message to all players where they can ALL earn their fun rewards whether they have little or extensive time to spend in the game, would be a much better thing for UO because it would make happy with the game a vast majority of paying customers rather than a limited minority.

    So, I do not see it as whining but rather, a different perspective as to what is best for Ultima Online in the long run if the goal is to have a larger number of subscriptions as active rather than fewer.
     
  23. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    I do not see a request of a fair game for players regardless of how much time they can spend in the game as whining. It is just a request I feel in the best interest of the game, incidentally.

    but also isnt there a benefit to those that play more than you or me to gain from putting time in and also reading info on game??? for there benefit
     
  24. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Someone Hacks Popps account, or did i slip thru a worm hole to another dimension.

    But yes I too for one agree with him.

    Looks up at sky waiting for lightning.
     
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  25. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    just popps trying new tricks to get players to disagree get those accounts banned :) normal popps play attention lol
     
  26. Percivalgoh

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    I haven't ever been able to keep up with the power gamers but look at this as an oportunity to do somethin the power gamers are occupied doing usually
     
  27. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    To me, it is not even the matter of competing with scriptors or bot programs.

    In many quests, there is the idea of being able to work at a pace you can afford to. If it takes someone 2 days to achieve a reward, or someone else 2 weeks, or someone else 2 months. They all can achieve the same end within their ability to play the game.

    Now, if someone has a job, or a life, or a family, or takes a vacation, the final reward is actually being denied them?

    With the way this quest is set up, I see no reason to even begin the quest process.
     
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  28. Eaerendil

    Eaerendil Younger than Kelmo, but also in the way...
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    I agree wholeheatedly - stop this silly competition-design now!
     
  29. Druido2

    Druido2 Guest

    I agree with the OP. we all pay the same amount of money to play the game at our pace. I don't see why only certain amount of people get rewarded for spending their entire time playing the game. Furthermore, at this point only the scripters are the only ones supporting this new reward system, since it seems to me their odds are better to corner the market. I also believe if this competition based system continues, why not jus make the game free to play while charging real money to compete in the so call events, that way EA gets money from the scripters that make money from selling the rewards that they get for this kind of scripter related ever.
     
  30. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    meees neber made a cure and dont wanna, the rulez was not berry goos. Makin them was a pain. so i just gets stuffs and gibes to udders. Mees no wants dem rewards anywho.
     
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  31. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Well silence speaks volumes Popps. Looks like Mesanna would rather Ignore the subject than reply to it I guess. :rant2:
     
  32. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    beside flappy wings gibes mees headache
     
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  33. Luvmylace

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    IMHO I am not doing the quest because of that % chance vs the length of time and effort employed for ingredients ;I would be for leaving the reward as is and then commuting the quest to ongoing with changing rewards
     
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  34. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    Anyone have a pic of one of the named cures to share?
     
  35. Odin of Europa

    Odin of Europa Lore Master
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    [​IMG]
     
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  36. Ginsu's

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    I just used 125 of each item, to do this quest and did not get anything. Is there a trick to it..
    No clue what I am doing. Please help :(
     
  37. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Ginsu, this article by Frarc should be helpful:
    UO Stratics *New* | [News] The Cure.
    .

    Also, skim through this thread and I think as you get down towards the 2nd and 3rd pages, you'll find some good info: brit sewers | Stratics Forums .

    Good luck. (I have some sugar, vanilla, and a little bit of raw yeast on Siege you can have too if you want it.)
     
    #37 Tina Small, Aug 2, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  38. Odin of Europa

    Odin of Europa Lore Master
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    This thread has some info on how to make cures.
     
  39. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Somewhat belatedly, I have removed some posts - including one of my own.
    My apologies, I should have closed down that deviation from the topic much earlier.
     
  40. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    You'll probably remove this one too, but I'll put it up anyway. The guy in a garg robe and carrying a 12-spell spellbook on Atlantic finished turning in his cures. Then he ran outside the gate and just stood there. A slith came up and killed each of the pack animals and then killed the noob character. I don't have spirit speak on my stealther so I don't know what the ghost did.

    Edited to add: And now the lag around the buildings with the alchemy equipment is so bad my character can hardly walk.
     
    #40 Tina Small, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  41. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    DOH!!!!! I have been Petra Fyde (Petra Fyded?) LOL :)

    I wish the Devs would look back at some of the well received quests/events from the past and recycle them in some way/shape/form.

    As an example, take the crystal quests from the dungeons (the halloween event) but put the crystals somewhere else (towns, swamps, deserts, etc) and the turn ins get chances at other items, etc. Just fix the turn in where a stealther could jump in and take a reward as someone else was turning in.
     
    #41 LordDrago, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  42. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    No Tina, I only removed those that contained, quoted or referred to a personal attack on a specific poster. Something I should have done right at the start.
     
  43. claudia-fjp

    claudia-fjp Lore Master
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    Say a person does 100 cures, and 50 is all they needed to do for the top reward. It sure would be nice if we could see our progression so we know we should turn in the second 50 on another character instead of wasting them all turning it in on 1 character. Another problem is how would you feel if you were the guy who turned in 100 cures and kept 1 with his name on it and to get the sleeves the cutoff was 101?

    This has been a prime example of what happens when you tell people too little information. When you leave things to people imaginations they will run wild and freak out about it. Many people are discouraged because they all think they have to turn in hundreds even though the system of reward distribution has never been spelled out and it could turn out they'd only need to have done a relatively small amount.
     
    #43 claudia-fjp, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  44. Apetul

    Apetul Rares Fest Host | LS April 2011
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    And, since this hasnt been tested at all, maybe the people that turned 1 or 2 cures will get the sleeves and the ppl that turned hundreds will get a nice looking sash.
     
  45. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    All goes back into lack of communication, hazy (or invisible) goals, etc.

    I hear a bunch of people talking about working hard to turn in hundreds of cures. I think it sucks that there is even the possibility that their hard work could get screwed over by a bunch of scripters cheating them out of their well deserved rewards.

    Why not set a cap of 300 or 400 or pick a number and let people work their way to the goal? Want the item faster than someone else, you work the quest harder and get the reward in 3 weeks. Want the reward, but have a hectic work schedule and a family vacation already planned? No problem, take yor time and get the reward in 3 months.
     
  46. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The idea of a CAP to limit the hurting effect to other players from scripters' or powergamers' turn ins is a very good idea but the problem is that many players ALREADY have been discouraged to participate to this Event because their limited time (casual players) in the game made them feel that they could never compete with whatever number of cures either scripters or power gamers could turn in on their shard.

    So, if a CAP is introduced (which would be a VERY good thing), THEN more time for all those players who left themselves out of participating to this Event so far, should be given to these players which, we should remember, are casual players capable of spending only a few hours into the game per week, usually over the weekend.

    That is, the CAP should be introduced and amply publicized along with an ample extention of the Event to give enough time to all those casual players (who have limited weekly time to play UO) who so far have not participated to the Event, to be then also able to participate and earn their right to receive all their 4 rewards from cures' turn ins.

    For example. an extention of 30 days might look a lot of time but to many players it really only means 4 weekends and to many players it really means only 4 sundays of a couple of hours each as far as time that one is able to spend in UO.....

    So, for many casual players an extention of 30 days really means moreless 8 hours in UO.....

    When things are thought for the game the whatever limited time that casual UO players can spend in the game should be kept into consideration if there is a wish to maintain as many subscriptions as active as possible because the message that only people who can spend extentive time in the game can be competitive to play UO is a message that might deter casual players from thinking it worth for them to play this game.

    So, game content should NOT be directed only or mostly at players who can play extensive time (as this Event looks to have been tailored for in regards to earn rewards...) but ALSO at players who have much more limited time to play if, in the end, all subscriptions whether from extensive time or casual time playing accounts are just as well good as resources to help UO keep going.......

    That's at least my thinking about this.
     
    #46 popps, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  47. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    After overhearing someone say in-game an hour or two ago that they could crank out 500 cures tonight, I'm really glad I didn't bother.
     
    MalagAste likes this.
  48. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    ^^^ This ^^^
     
  49. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    The guy I overheard at the labs was having quite the conversation with someone else who wanted to buy completed cures from him. The buyer sounded like he had big plans to go bar-hopping in RL this weekend and just needed 20 cures to get his weekend started right, however he seemed rather unhappy that the seller had imposed a bit of a price increase from their last conversation. One of his offers to the maker of the cures included a certain amount of gold and 100 sacks of sugar for 20 completed cures. They seemed to be stuck on agreeing whether the completed cures were worth 2 million apiece or something less and exactly what sugar, the oh-so-coveted-ingredient, was really worth.

    Why the buyer was content to buy only 20 cures when the seller said he was going to make 500 cures tonight alone is beyond me. 20 cures would seem to be just a drop in the bucket compared to what a dedicated cure creator is able to crank out.... If I was making cures, I'm not sure I'd be all that keen to hand my creations, labeled with my character's name, off to eager strangers only concerned about obtaining a small quantity.
     
    #49 Tina Small, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  50. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    50 cures takes about 4 hours.

    500 could take upwards of 40 hours.