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Mining, Smelting, and the Rarity of Valorite

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RaDian FlGith, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Okay... long ago, someone decided there was a good reason to exceed the 100.0 skill cap on several skills. Mining is not one of those skills. The trouble with this is that someone else decided that in order to combat scripters (and in the process make the casual miner's life a total living hell), resources would randomly up and change from the location that they're spawning in.

    The practical upshot of this is that you can have a maximum of 105.0 mining (while wearing Ringmail Gloves of Mining), and therefore can still fail occasionally while smelting agapite, verite, and valorite. The problem with this, of course, is that now that it's harder to find a constant source of valorite (or verite or agapite for that matter, it's just that the lower you go down the tree the more numerous the spawn points are).

    My suggestion therefore is that it's about time to update mining (and indeed lumberjacking as well) with 120.0 powerscrolls garnered in whatever fashion you see fit (though I would suggest that existing crafting systems would be the way to get them, not champ spawns).

    Now, I understand that introducing anything over 100.0 in mining introduces a new question... what about a 110 and 120 level ore? My suggestion would be to introduce two new ores that spawn -- I don't have any clever names for them, but my suggestions would be a purple-hued ore and a bright off-white that might resemble titanium or something in that vein (not like bright white, ice white or any of that). Clearly introducing new ores introduces new potential properties for crafting, and I would suggest merely that the two higher ores would perhaps carry the same point spread as valorite with a different distribution so as not to introduce anything unbalancing to the current balance of the crafting system.

    Yes, this means that we would re-replicate the valorite issue with the two new ores once you reach 120, however, I would simply suggest that at 120 mining, you are no longer capable of failing at smelting.

    Of course, we could bypass all the extras and simply say that at 100 mining you are no longer capable of failing at smelting... but wouldn't it be nice to see something new in this regard?

    Anyway... my thoughts on the matter... in the end, failure smelting should go away at the skill cap given the resource spawn changes.
     
  2. Miriandel

    Miriandel Seasoned Veteran
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    Spawn cycling encourages botting. Period.

    Back in the days, I could recall to my valorite spawns and gather enough to craft a plate in a matter of hours. Those days are gone, I have to mine for nights on to get enough valorite to craft a plate now.

    With the current state of botting, there is NO WAY they can prevent people from being as effective AFK than actually playing, but they still chose to penalize legit players in a futile attempt to limit botting.

    This being said, I don't care much. Learn and adapt :party:
     
  3. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I still stand behind the axiom that game design should not punish the casual player to deal with scripters.
     
  4. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Recall mining was stupid.

    My templates are already lacking of room. So another stupid "120%" skill, no thank you.
     
  5. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    I don`t think its that hard to find hi end ore.I go to Cove mountain and work from one end to the other for example.I always end up with all ore from iron to val.

    Does anyone use prospecter tools and garg pickaxes? Thats the only reason I can think of that someone would say its hard to get val or higher end ore.Sure its not predicatable,but its pretty easy to find it.

    While ya can`t use the old method of: recall in,mine,recall to next spot and repeat. Ya can just walk along the mountain side or cave or whatever and use the tools that are there to get the ore ya want. I`ve got a nice stash of all of it.Wasn`t that hard to get. I just fill the crappy bods to keep my stock of prosp tools and garg pickaxes up. I don`t think mining needs to be a 120 skill,its already easy enough to get the high end stuff.
     
  6. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Above all, do not forget that high level ore is supposed to be rare! The only unlogic thing is that barbed leather is comparably easy to get, which makes crafting iron armor almost a waste of time.
     
  7. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I personally am a Gargoyle Pickaxe addict, and have no problem getting Valorite when I need it. It just requires mining along a mountainside with a fire beetle, and elevating as needed for desired ore.

    In fact, I have a couple thousand valorite ingots, and am currently AVOIDING Valorite when possible, because I need Agapite and Verite for BODs (the Agapite for smalls to get POF, and Verite for a EX 20 Plate that will give me a Verite or Valorite hammer, once I get the last small).

    I wonder how much POF prices will go up, seeing as how people will be Powdering stuff up to 255, before imbuing?
     
  8. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
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    I agree with this. I will actually take it a step further. Randomizing ore spots actually made me less likely to mine or lumberjack, so I now usually buy ore. Many ingot vendors with constant supplies of rare ingots are run by scripters, or at least those with the lower prices.

    Since scripters can turn unlimited play-time directly into a valuable resource, I don't buy the argument that something is "supposed to be rare" when in actuality it is only actually rare if you aren't cheating. That seems to me punishing those who follow the spirit of the rules with the spirit of the rules. If a system is broken, it doesn't matter how it is "supposed to be" in some perfect world.

    This doesn't apply to just mining. Library Collections are another one. I earned a gypsy headress through the Vesper one, but most of the others I have I bought. Since turning in the same item, beetle-load after beetle-load is incredibly boring and not terribly profitable (3000 spellbooks in to the Library and I can get...not much), how many of those on the market are done by scripters?
     
  9. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    On mining, I just strip mine a cave and recall to the next. NP I just take what I get.
    Leather I know what to kill to get what.
    Lumber is the same as mining now, take what you get.

    2 tree stumps and 2 ore carts and I get more high end stuff then going out and doing it. Going to get more of these as vet rewards come up.

    Fletchers can use logs or wood and make the same thing. No failure rate turning logs into boards. Skill required to get and turn this resource. Randomized locations. No special bag to reuse resources.

    Tailor can use hides or leather and make the same thing. No failure rate turning hides into leather. Anybody can get this resource and turn it into leather, no special skill required.
    Fixed spawn. Special bag to reuse resources.

    Smiths can only use ingots. High failure rate smelting ore at upper end resources. Can not use ore to make items. Skill required to get and turn this resource. Randomized locations. Special bag to reuse resources.

    They need to get rid of the failure rate with ore smelting to ingots or let us use ore to make things with.
     
  10. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    Maybe on a failed smelt you lose one ore?

    I seem to remember the randomization came about for "new systems in SA" that will use the higher ingots and wood. I am still looking for these new systems.

    120 mining scrolls would be ok. With craftable soulstones templates can be changed instantly to allow for the higher skill.

    Oh, and lets remove the need for mining when recycling armor and weps. <-- I really HATE that.
     
  11. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    I realize this could be an ignorant opinion, and possibly even make it easier for bots and scripters, but I had the following idea regarding scrolls for both mining and lumberjacking: What if at 120 skill level, you could see a faded hue-like color of the mining spot or tree that was an indication of what resource could be extracted? Imagine walking around mountains and trees at 120 skill looking for light blue colored trees or rocks. Then you don't "waste" your time looking for the ore/log type you need or want.

    I know, probably stupid and over-powered (keep the flaming at a minimum, please), but it could save a ton of time, esp. for those of us who rarely buy our resources.

    Oh, and also, what about at 120, being able to mine/chop the peerless ingredients? Then crafters can actually get those without having to buy at ridiculous prices.
     
  12. Maggie

    Maggie Guest

    I m against 120 mining but all for succeeding while smelting. Lumberjacks dont lose most of their wood when they turn into planks.
     
  13. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I still have a little hope some day they will undo what they did to mining and give it back to the real players.
     
  14. XLaCeDX

    XLaCeDX Guest

    Why does anyone need tons of valorite or verite ingots?
     
  15. Vertigo

    Vertigo Guest

    Bods
     
  16. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Mining is fine. Mitzlplik has the right of it. You can get plenty of upper end ore simply by finding a good zrea of mountain you can step-by-step mine.

    The whole point WAS to make Valorite slower to obtain (the whole idea of rarity). Being able to Recall bounce to mine up "as much as you want" kind of kills the idea of "rarity".

    If you're not using at least a Prosp Tool is not both a prosp tool and garg pick, then you aren't doing enough to max out your mining ability.

    Smelting failures DO need a look at, and Ore elems should have at least the chance of dropping ML gems... beyond that, Mining is fine.
     
  17. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Ever since harvest-by-area came out, I've grown to despise prospectors tools. What's the point of introducing a wonderful user-friendly macro action that doesn't actually work with a tool serious miners consider essential?
     
  18. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I haven't had a problem with it. It just sits in a it's own separate Use item/TargetCursorLast macro+hotkey to use as I need it.
     
  19. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Mining is not fine. It is more script friendly now than was before. Community collections and no valid use for rare ore killed the idea of rarity. Years after the nerf we still have no use for rare ore. Yet community collections and heartwood quest are still heavily scripted using scripted resources. There was a choice to use tools before. Now it is all but required for any kind of decent yield. Magery is required to mark and fighting skills to use garg axes.

    These forums are peppered with complaints of those not happy with the change way more often than those who are pleased. Yet others seem to think the unhappiness is invalid or un-justified. Looking at the last three "gifts" our parting dev bestowed upon us (BoS nerf, Greater Dragons and resource RNG nerf) which stood the test of time? 2 down... 1 to go.
     
  20. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Every time you fail a smelt you lose half of the ore.
     
  21. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    LJ do not lose any wood because they never fail.
     
  22. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    TOTALY AGREE Leave it alone and fix the smelt failure. Val is hard enough to come by now so they need to do away with failures.
     
  23. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Do not bring the GDs into this. Have you taken yours out and tested? I have and there is little differance in what it did then and what it does now. Test your own GD on monsters that you have done before and see for yourself. My GD took on a GD and 3 Draggies today, yes I had to vet him and in the end I skined every one of them. LOL

    Oh and where have you been? BoS were fixed to the way they were. Do you still play UO?
     
  24. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    Right on. Sorry if I was unclear on this. Maybe it should be changed to lose one ore on a failed attempt, and not half of your ore.
     
  25. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Some of us like blue or green armor, and while the staining system is nice, it doesn't provide access to the general ore colors.
    Unless I've missed some change, Gargoyle Pickaxes have a chance to spawn ore elementals, which is why my miner stopped using them years ago.
    Honestly, most of what I posted was merely suggestions. Personally, I'd be fine with the smelting failure disappearing at GM.

    Just a note back on the 120 skill propositions... While I understand it makes "templates" more difficult to manage, it's also extremely inconsistent to have some skills cap at 100, while others cap at 120. Take smithy and tailoring... they cap at 120. Alchemy and tinkering cap at 100. Things that were really hard to make with smithing and tailoring got easier at 120; there is still a huge failure rate at 100 alchemy (even with a talisman) when making Greater Cure and Deadly Poison (not suggesting Deadly Poison should ever reach 100% success rate, mind you).

    Similarly, mining, lumberjacking... they cap at 100.

    While I get that raised caps would change templates, I'm also VERY MUCH for consistency in the game... Consistency is one of the biggest hurdles to new players in UO (ie: the lack of consistency).

    Anyhow... wanted to get back to this because I started it, got wrapped up in SA, and completely forgot about it. heh
     
  26. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Doesn't adding new top-end ore defeat your purpose of making the skill go to 120 to reduce fails?

    I don't like 120% Skills (100 being the most "%" you can have, by definition). And I don't think being top of your game means you shouldn't ever fail.