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More thoughts on so-called "cheating" - a different perspective.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by imported_Hawkeye_Pike, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. Hi all,
    in my opinion, the discussion about scripting/macronig/cheating is going to the wrong direction.
    <ul>
    [*]Some people are complaining that skill gain is too slow and it takes too long to become legendary.
    [*]Others say UO mostly consists of overly tedious and unnecessarily time-consuming repeated actions. [/list]
    Don't you see where the real problem lies? It is those people who try to advance as fast as possible and want to reach legendary as soon as possible, who then complain about the game being boring once they have reached their goal. Why? Because they skipped everything that makes the game fun: Character development and the associated adventures. I know disturbingly MANY players who had 5 highly developed characters after only 6 months of playing (or even less). But when you ask them, they know Luna, Britannia, Doom, Destard, "Arties" and "Mel", and that's about it. They have never been to dungeons like Covetous or Deceit. They don't know that Cove is a town. They have no idea what the Hedge Maze is. They skipped 95% of the game and 95% of the fun. The fun you have when raising your taming skill by taming rats in Covetous. Or raising your fighting skill by killing Lizardmen in Wrong. Basically, raising skills by playing the game. The game offers interesting places and adventures for EVERY skill level. Most people just don't know, or are too impatient.
    When you appear in New Haven as a new player, there's always a veteran around offering you free equipment and giving you hints about how to advance in the fastest possible way. Those people are really nice and helpful. But finding out things by yourself, maybe with a little nudge or advise, is much much more fun.

    It's all about how you play the game. People, who only look for most rapid skill advancement and the most nifty artifact, have no idea what UO is all about. Unfortunately, I have the impression that at least 80% of the players are like that. They can't be helped. They always will find ways of automating things, scripting, or "cheating" as you call it. In my opinion, those players are only cheating themselves.
     
  2. tymbow

    tymbow Guest

    Maybe that's due to the goal orientation of other games. I remember back in the days of early Everquest and more recently WoW all I ever heard about was peoples desire to get their character to some particular level as the goal of their gameplay.

    To me UO is not really like that. There are so many different things to try that there is no real end goal per se. As you say, making your goal to reach legendery in all your skills will ensure you miss most of what UO can offer.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    People, who only look for most rapid skill advancement and the most nifty artifact, have no idea what UO is all about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or people have been playing for a decade, and don't feel like spending 100 years gming swordsmanship for the 100th time. I agree that the first time its a great journey, but after that its just kinda tedious.
     
  4. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    People, who only look for most rapid skill advancement and the most nifty artifact, have no idea what UO is all about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or people have been playing for a decade, and don't feel like spending 100 years gming swordsmanship for the 100th time. I agree that the first time its a great journey, but after that its just kinda tedious.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, that would be an argument against Siege Perilous, wouldn't it?
     
  5. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    While I agree your ideals apply to some people, it does not apply to all of us.

    I Have 8 developed characters, kitted out, and I used all the tricks in the book to get gains as fast as possible. Golems, macros, discording,etc. A power gamer I guess you'd call it.

    Not for one minute would I have found taming rats fun.

    Maybe in 1997, when the game was new. But like someone else said, once you've gotten the t-shirt, its time to move on.

    Character development was always to me just a small part of the game. To me endgame is peerless, Doom, and pvp. I want to be effective as fast as possible with whatever template it is that I want to use, so I train said character as quickly as possible. Trolls and ratmen need not apply.

    Like I said, I agree with most of what you said. As character development is certainly an enjoyable part of the game. But certainly not 95% of the game and 95% of the fun of which you speak. Not even close.
     
  6. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    Oh, and forgot to mention, I've been around the beat up old horse since the beginning [​IMG]. And still have quite a lot of fun. I contribute that to having online friends who I can hunt with in a group.

    If you had asked me that about 3 years ago, maybe things would be different. I played mostly solo in UO until that time. I can still find a lot to do solo if need be, but my gameplay style has changed drastically since about the time ML came out.
     
  7. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    Played since late 98, I remember the first time I GMed my swordsmanship by going to the decite level 1 jail area to kill skeletons and zombies, then switch to the once so-popular skele-wall(skeleton knights) in decite level 2. The skele-wall is by far the most popular area for ANY dexers. People all lined up and hitting them and xheal each other. GMed my parrying killing bounch of rats, ratmans, trolls all around the world then finishing up with some blade spirits. And if my buddy needs to train vet skill he will tame a goat and come to my small plaster house and heal it while I attack it with a practice sword.

    I remember back then there was no such thing as "Last Target". Funny thing is "last target" was actually first seem on UOE (UOExtrere), a 3rd party cheat program where you can use this function to cast spells thru walls and ignore line-of-sight. e.g Ebolt that player standing in the MIDDLE of his own house from outside. and casting on Lich Lords thru a wall.

    Then the power hour era comes into play and made the skele-wall even more popular (you see at least 3 to maybe 10 people there anytime during the day).

    Factions came out where there will be pvp 24/7, and it so common to see 30+ players fighting in brits/vesper/skara bascially ANY classic city... Then the introduction of melee special abilities (crushing/concussion/Paralying blow).

    UO was amazing, and was the greatest game/world in the world.

    then......

    AOS hits

    A lot of pvp-******** players with a lot of gold started to invest in many things and artifacts and can now PvP decently. From a scale of 1 to 100. Old UO pvp depends on 80% skill and 20% item (lets leave the connection speed out). The the pvp we have today is 80% items and 10% skill for dexers. And 50% connection (for spell spamming), 30% skill and 20% items for mages.

    Vets started to quit

    Then worthless trammie/farming expansions
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ML
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Today's UO.

    And cheaters dominates in PvP AND IRL PROFIT.

    Cheaters/Scripters 32
    Legit Players 0
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Or people have been playing for a decade, and don't feel like spending 100 years gming swordsmanship for the 100th time. I agree that the first time its a great journey, but after that its just kinda tedious.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Patient : Doctor, doctor! It hurts when I twist my arm like this.
    Doctor: Don't twist your arm like that.
     
  9. I have never minded working towards a goal to improve my skills but when it is near impossible for a skill to move forward it is frustrating. It took me a long time to get to 120 taming as it should have but to get 120 or near provoke or discord is nearly impossible. I could discord creatures all day long and not get a gain.
    So some things need to be looked at to see if there is an actual problem with gains. I have been playing since September of 1997 and haven't lost interest yet but it should take me years to gm a skill through normal game play.
     
  10. <blockquote><hr>

    raising your fighting skill by killing Lizardmen in Wrong.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ....

    Where are there lizard-men in Wrong? Do you mean Despise, level one, or have I forgotten something?

    All I remember is evil mages/brigands/executioners, followed by the Juka and the Blackthorn/Exodus monsters, followed by evil mages/brigands/executioners again.

    -Galen's player
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I had a friend who went from 0.0 Disco to 120.0 Disco in about 7-10 days. I've gone from 30's Disco to 80s in about 5 days.
     
  12. On the actual topic of the post, my thoughts on being a new character and skill gain and the like are located here.

    Over the last couple of weeks, nothing's occurred to alter my thoughts....My little noob is still struggling along in a major way. Sometimes it's a fun struggle, and sometimes it's only a frustrating pain in the ass.

    -Galen's player
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I still think it would be a good idea to accelerate skill gains for vets; a greater increase for each year.

    This would address the issue that new players can have the 'joy' of training skills properly and those that have done it a few times and now tend to macro/powergame their skills would have less need to do this.
     
  14. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    I still think it would be a good idea to accelerate skill gains for vets; a greater increase for each year.

    This would address the issue that new players can have the 'joy' of training skills properly and those that have done it a few times and now tend to macro/powergame their skills would have less need to do this.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Then we will see even more clueless trammies sitting on top of an ethy polar bear......

    And old blank account cash value skyrocketing.
     
  15. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    Agreed, Legendary should be a long deserved and unique title.

    Shame on EA for selling advanced character tokens. They took away what makes UO what it is. If players want stuff super-duper fast, heck, go play Xbox or some other kiddie game....like WoW perhaps.

    Man, took me, as a casual player, darn near 4 years to go legendary in archery....smithing was no overnighter either.....tailoring too, now that I think.

    Here's one thought I stand by:
    Make very unique and distinctive titles per vet year. I see no honor in being Lord, right along side Lord Dipsey-Doodle, who did it overnight.

    Make me a baron, or a duke, hell a marquis would work too. Anything but an earl.....lol
     
  16. Karthcove

    Karthcove Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I still think it would be a good idea to accelerate skill gains for vets; a greater increase for each year.

    This would address the issue that new players can have the 'joy' of training skills properly and those that have done it a few times and now tend to macro/powergame their skills would have less need to do this.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think the original poster is "spot on".

    Soulstones are a good thing for this - true it doesn't transfer between separate accounts but does allow you to "save" a skill for future use if you decide to change a template up. Maybe a good answer would be to allow skill gain in everything up to your skill cap but before you venture out (say once a week have the option...) you select which 700-720 points you want to use - a new patch comes in that effects game play a veteran player will be prepared.

    I also trained at the "bonewall", daily a passel of reds would come in force and most times enjoy looting our twitching bodies - we would all meet back at the bank in Glow or Brit (where ever, most banks were populated and busy) and see if the Red that just kill us was listed on the bounty board... Good times.

    Speaking of the Bonewall - that wasn't just a training grounds for swords and alike, your thief made a good profit and skill gain there too [​IMG] Reds were one thing that broke up the wall in to a disorganized mess and Lord help anyone who targeted wrong or got caught stealing - this would also break the wall up with EVERYONE trying to kill the poor [censored] that went grey - lol, really Good times!
     
  17. Your opinion isn't where "the problem lies" at all. In fact, it's way off the mark. If you've been playing for years, training how you're describing isn't fun at all, because by now you'd be doing it for the hundredth time. People just want trained characters so they can then start playing the game. This is why a huge percentage macro their skills. Most skills would take an incredibly long time to train if you didn't macro them; I'm talking months, even years for some people who are more casual. This isn't acceptable for the majority.

    The real issue lies in the slow rate of skill gain and the tediousness in which it takes to gain skill. These are real issues, despite your claims, and need to be addressed. Personally, I'd like to see more quest-based skill training. If they were implemented correctly, you'd have more people playing the game instead of macroing as the skill rewards for the quests complete would be larger than if you just left a macro running. It'd at least encourage people to play a little more and, hey you never know, it might actually be something kinda fun to participate in too if enough variation was included.
     
  18. Lord_Asterix

    Lord_Asterix Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Hi all,
    in my opinion, the discussion about scripting/macronig/cheating is going to the wrong direction.
    <ul>
    [*]Some people are complaining that skill gain is too slow and it takes too long to become legendary.
    [*]Others say UO mostly consists of overly tedious and unnecessarily time-consuming repeated actions. [/list]
    Don't you see where the real problem lies? It is those people who try to advance as fast as possible and want to reach legendary as soon as possible, who then complain about the game being boring once they have reached their goal. Why? Because they skipped everything that makes the game fun: Character development and the associated adventures. I know disturbingly MANY players who had 5 highly developed characters after only 6 months of playing (or even less). But when you ask them, they know Luna, Britannia, Doom, Destard, "Arties" and "Mel", and that's about it. They have never been to dungeons like Covetous or Deceit. They don't know that Cove is a town. They have no idea what the Hedge Maze is. They skipped 95% of the game and 95% of the fun. The fun you have when raising your taming skill by taming rats in Covetous. Or raising your fighting skill by killing Lizardmen in Wrong. Basically, raising skills by playing the game. The game offers interesting places and adventures for EVERY skill level. Most people just don't know, or are too impatient.
    When you appear in New Haven as a new player, there's always a veteran around offering you free equipment and giving you hints about how to advance in the fastest possible way. Those people are really nice and helpful. But finding out things by yourself, maybe with a little nudge or advise, is much much more fun.

    It's all about how you play the game. People, who only look for most rapid skill advancement and the most nifty artifact, have no idea what UO is all about. Unfortunately, I have the impression that at least 80% of the players are like that. They can't be helped. They always will find ways of automating things, scripting, or "cheating" as you call it. In my opinion, those players are only cheating themselves.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My goal is to pvp. I cannot do that on a half-assed [censored] for nothing character.
     
  19. Karthcove

    Karthcove Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    The fun you have when raising your taming skill by taming rats in Covetous. Or raising your fighting skill by killing Lizardmen in Wrong.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Guess all your training "the hard way" still didn't teach you where things spawned. There's no rats in Covetous or any Lizardmen in Wrong.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was in Wrong last night... Lizardmen are on the first level... You reading stratics for all your info or actually making out to these places yourself?

    Yesterday went to level 5 of Covetous, anyone ever kill that Red and named AW down there yet? I lored it and all the resists were 99, skills all 160 and the hit points were "????" - didn't look like a push over...
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Covetous, anyone ever kill that Red and named AW down there yet?

    [/ QUOTE ]Heh, Sudiva? You could throw the whole shard at her; she'd laugh.
     
  21. Karthcove

    Karthcove Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Covetous, anyone ever kill that Red and named AW down there yet?

    [/ QUOTE ]Heh, Sudiva? You could throw the whole shard at her; she'd laugh.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    heh, yea, that's the beast. I was out looking for the perfect greater drag and remembered the dragon spawn down there, tried my rune (made it years ago) and it won't work so had to investigate - what a cool looking monster, if you haven't seen it I suggest you do!

    How long has she been down there? Would be sooooooo cool if the leather she spawned was that color [​IMG]
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    How long has she been down there? Would be sooooooo cool if the leather she spawned was that color [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    She's been there since the Candle of Love event last year, lamenting her lost sky and showing people what a true dragon is capable of if they annoy her (this was shortly after the Book of Truth event ... no word on a Bell of Courage event ... yet)
     
  23. JoyousGard

    JoyousGard Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    People, who only look for most rapid skill advancement and the most nifty artifact, have no idea what UO is all about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or people have been playing for a decade, and don't feel like spending 100 years gming swordsmanship for the 100th time. I agree that the first time its a great journey, but after that its just kinda tedious.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed. I have found this is true for most skills.
     
  24. JoyousGard

    JoyousGard Guest

    UO should sell legal scripts.

    "UOscripts" and then let us choose what script we want to run (make 100 spined leather gloves and sell to armor guy, etc).

    THey can monitor it however they want. Then it is legal and not cheating so we are all happy, and people don't have to move their wrist as much.

    I'd even settle for typing in commands of what I want to do (KILL 500 polar bears AND SKIN each one THEN DELIVER to HOME).

    After typing in the commands the game can come up with an estimate of the time it would take a true blue UO player to do this task and output a response "The request you would like will take 6.5 hrs. Are you sure you want to proceed? You will be unable to play UO for those 6.5 hours that your request is being processed."

    They could throw in random risk factors too (after accounting for your players stats/skills/res) while the order is being processed "You were killed by an Ice Troll"

    Then I click "YES" and just let the computer run while the game "processes and fulfills the order"

    They could even put a timer on it, so we know when we can submit the next order or run around the UO universe a while.

    I only mention this as a valid option for me, because I have done the polar bear thing. It was fun the first 1,000 or so that I slayed. I was going to make a tailor legendary and I was gaining various skills doing the work. But the "thrill is gone" so to speak and I still need leather.

    UO can charge for the service and make it legal and then we avoid a lot of issues and cut out the nefarious middle man (i.e. Joe Scriptoholic). The uphill both ways can still have it uphill both ways or just talk about the uphill both ways back when it was a game and not typing commands into a computer.

    So UO makes more money by selling scripts - YAY!! Assured future of gameplay.
    The UOscripts are legal so their is no cheating - YAY!!! Cheaters are scum man.
    The third party illicit programs and part-time programmers tank out of business - YAY!!! Nobody liked them anyway.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Don't you see where the real problem lies? It is those people who try to advance as fast as possible and want to reach legendary as soon as possible, who then complain about the game being boring once they have reached their goal. Why? Because they skipped everything that makes the game fun: Character development and the associated adventures.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well I agree for the most part, but I have always said they need to spice it up a bit. Fighting hordes of lessor critters can be boring after a while, specially for vet players making a new template. And I can tell you for certain, taming thousands of white wolves for taming gains gets a bit lame after a few weeks of it.

    I have never macrod anything, did it all the hard way, do I like cheaters? No. I think the losers with pets/golems in tram are just that...

    But do I understand it? Sure I do. Alot of training in UO is mind numbingly boring.

    Taming for instance, its my humble opinion that new tamers should get gains from just fighting with thier lowly beginner pets, then they could at least join in with some friends and actually "do" something while training taming.

    And as another person posted, for alot of people with families and jobs, the prospect of training a usable character is almost impossible, so they never really experience anything but failure or boredom. Not a good experience imho.
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There are somethings in this game that require the patience of a saint.... taming would be one of them..... NOT for the powergamer that's for sure...

    I suppose what you find "fun" would depend largely on your goals and your playstyle.. Personally I don't play for the skill building... I play for the Roleplay, hunting, challenge, and exploration of my imagination....

    What I need for roleplay may just be a character that can hold a staff.. really don't need skill sometimes.... or I might need a stealth archer.... Or perhaps a mage..... Hunting..... I use several different characters.... Challenge..... how about GMing EVERY skill possible..... hum..... still working on that... slow but sure and I've been playing 8 years!.... darn that Begging is a hard one!..... hehe Exploration... well now I have seen pretty much every corner of the map been down every hole I could find gone to every corner of every dungeon... some more than once..... and Imagination...... I ADORE house design and deco.... the one thing this game offers over pretty much any other game on the market is the ability to actually create somthing with your own imagination.... you can effect your surroundings in UO ...... be it only your own home it still is quite the ability... what you need you can make to suit that need... Be it an arena for fights, an auction house..... a shop for vendors.... a Bar to hang out with your friends.... a storage unit, a museum of aquired goods....

    It's really my opinion that folk that get bored on burn out or whatever really have a lack of imagination and perhaps have the wrong goals set.... getting to the top for your character and having a 120 all or whatever isn't that challenging.... (unless your taming and that's hard but dull).... But my goals are to hang with my friends..... keep britania safe... fight off evil...... improve and build the community in which I live... and enjoy myself as well as see that my friends are having a good time and we all have things to do. Be it planning an event or tournament, or trudging down into a dungeon, or digging for burried treasure..... The game IS what YOU make it... that's the most important thing to remember... if your bored perhaps you need to look around and see what others are doing for fun in game and set new goals for yourself...... You may just find some new friendships.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Excellent thoughts, Willa. *smiles*

    Both my characters are still lowly skilled, but I have a blast playing each of them. I have the knowledge to powergame if I wanted to, but I'd rather enjoy the journey.

    I do understand that people play for different reasons, and this may not be fun for them. Skill gain should be given a look, especially for some skills. I like the idea of Quests which reward you with gains.
     
  28. David of FL

    David of FL Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    My goal is to pvp. I cannot do that on a half-assed [censored] for nothing character.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    QFT

    Which is a problem with UO and PvP in general. Takes to long to aquire the skills and items through PvM.