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Movement to De-Trammelize Felucca

Discussion in 'UHall' started by drinkbeerallday, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    In Felucca Only:

    1. get rid of beneficial acts

    2. get rid of instanced corpses

    3. get rid instanced peerless bosses, or remove them from fel all together.

    i'm sure someone can think of a few more things like removing insurance, reverting to old housing rules etc.. but those are unrealistic. go ahead and mention it anyway though if you must. also mention any bugs or annoyances that should be different in Fel than Tram
     
  2. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    I can't help but think this is funny after all the posts that have been posted to get rid of Trammel.
     
  3. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Thats what he i saying. He wants the trammel rules out of fel...I dont know why they were ever introduced.
     
  4. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    I agree with him completely I just think it's funny what with all the people calling for the removal of Trammel not a one of those seemed to have a care about removing the Trammel rules from Felucca. Gave me a good laugh this morning!
     
  5. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    I care not if those get implemented or not. However, I've heard complaints of Felucca never getting any new content. If I remember correctly, peerless bosses were new content. It sounds hypocritical to want new content only to want it taken away. The Peerless Boss system shouldn't be changed just for felucca, it's not worth breaking the system. If Felucians really want them removed, that's fine by me.

    As for beneficial acts. Wasn't that put in so that blues couldn't help factioner w/o much fear of retribution? Would you want those types of people back? Again, it matters not for me, I'm simply bringing up possibilities.
     
  6. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *chuckles* Laughter is good for stress. It is unresting watching these "discussions" from an outsiders POV.
     
  7. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    While you might thing that its unrealistic, I would fully be behind removing all insurance and blessing in Fel. It would force players to choose their actions more carefully and not just bounce out of the house with their full artifact suit and valorite runic weapons like they do all over Trammel.

    As for your three, one and two are fine ideas to me. 3, I believe, can be addressed with 2 without having so much additional effort involved.

    In reality, Felucca should be all about the 'wild and mostly lawless' land that it is designed to be. Going there should involve much thought and planning. And you should get the feeling you are in a wild and mostly lawless land whenever you go there. Anything to help with that level of immersion can only improve it in my mind.
     
  8. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Add Get rid of Insurance to that list, otherwise it's just as care bear and risk free as trammel.
     
  9. Well spoken.
    And the truth.
     
  10. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    Getting rid of insurance would make Fel VERY unappealing. No new players for you, because no trammel players would want to risk all they worked for just to learn pvp in Fel.
    Also, getting rid of the peerless system in Fel is just eliminating another draw. From my experience, Lady Mel drops better loot in Fel. I've ALSO been raided at the Blighted Grove ( XD ).

    But there is one thing I do agree with, Bene acts have got to go.
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'm very confused by 1.

    Do you mean allowing no one to heal or rez anyone in Fel, ever? (I.e., allowing no more beneficial acts in Trammel?) If so that's a weird idea.

    Do you mean getting rid of the limits on beneficial acts in Fel? If so, one of them (the thing where a guilded character sometimes can be healed and sometimes can't be) is a bug. One of the other limits, however, the Factions limit, could be nearly catastrophic to Factions if it was lifted.

    Last night, I caught wind of a Shadowlord raid on the Council of Mages stronghold, and I figured it might be fun to steal a few kills on Shadowlord reds. That's one thing, but if I'd also been able to directly assist CoM by healing or rezzing? That would've been downright weird. That would have crossed the line between killing reds and participating in Factions without being a member thereof.

    Also, when I was in Factions, I the Shadowlords would often rely upon non-Faction reds to back them up. OK, fine, it's Fel, that happens. But if they'd also been able to heal and rez them? Far too much.

    As someone who is a self-described Trammie, I have no objection whatsoever to the removal of instanced corpses or instanced monsters (such as Peerlesses, I assume you mean) from Felucca. (I actually agree that there's really no point to instanced corpses in Fel. If you can't defend your kill, you shouldn't be there. If I'm working monsters in Fel, and I see someone else around, and I don't feel like PvP, I'll just leave!!)

    However, be aware that such a move would cause lots of Fellie-whining about how Fel never gets new content.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    I think he means instanced peerless. The instanced part, not the peerless. There's nothing to fight over because you can't go in after them.

    :scholar:
     
  13. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Well in this case, I don't think you can have one without the other.

    The Peerlesses are designed in a certain way.

    Well actually, maybe not.....Let's try to work it out, conceptually.

    What would a non-instanced Lady Mel look like?

    Something like this:

    You work the keys, and the keys let you open up an area, within which Lady Mel spawns. The area is not instanced, but is closed until the key is used. So once the "door" opens, anyone can get in, and the guild has to defend it like they would a Harrower.

    Is that what you all have in mind?

    -Galen's player
     
  14. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    Yes.

    It was designed with instanced dungeons in mind but not with felucca in mind. I think felucca trumps instanced dungeons in felucca any day.

    But.

    For future dungeon / reward type areas, they could design it with felucca in mind (from the get go), in such a way that the dynamics of how you fight over it will be different.

    :scholar:
     
  15. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I don't want bene acts removed from factions.

    That's one more thing I need, some faction guild fighting me with 3 blues following him just cross healing.

    Way to think it through. :scholar:
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    If I am not mistaken the risk of being in Felucca is dealing with PKs...and the reward is getting your opponents insurance if you kill them. Not to mention the PvM in fel gives you double the loot. *scratches head about the risk vs. reward issue* that you keep bringing up.

    Let me state too that I did indeed play the game pre trammel...and have also played a developed toon on seige as well as retro free shards. Fel is different from Trammel, if you are not happy with how it is then stick to seige or play free shards.
     
  17. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I was going to cry "beating dead horse", but the thread wasn't what I thought it was.

    I agree... let fel be fel... remove the silly trammel rules from fel.
     
  18. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I wouldn't like this kind of system, but I don't see how I could possibly object to it either.

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    More on point 3...

    I think it would be kinda cool if the currently instanced peerless bosses would just wander around the dungeons that house them. Players could then take on the risk of fighting peerless in fel without needing to farm keys to fight them.

    Also, there would be an added pvm risk with the possibility of having putrufier and paroxysmus attacking you simultaneously. Or the added risk of having mel, thrasher, coil, tangle and abscess all fighting you while you fight mel LOL. WHAT FUN!

    Where would shimmering effusion spawn? That's a unidirectional dungeon with the instant-escape ticket. I guess shim could be made to spawn in a randomly chosen room of the dungeon, but that kinda throws off the flow of the dungeon. Alternatively, shim could wander from room to room.

    Another way to implement non-instanced peerless would be to allow people to use keys to come in and gank you while you're fighting a peerless. I'm not sure that would really work with the spirit of fel, though. Raiders don't want to actually do work like getting keys or working a champ spawn up. They just want to raid and take the reward.
     
  20. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    That could be fixed pretty easily. Just make it so if you heal a faction member while not in a faction you are flagged as faction killable to any faction for a week. Also, make it so a blue healer that is killed by a faction member suffers stat penalties. I'm sure that would put an end to blue healers because they would take on the risk of being in factions without the reward.
     
  21. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Yes, and bugs like that rune book sploit that pulls people into fel to be ganked would be HIGHLY abused.

    The only way taking away insurance could ever work is if players could easily replace lost equipment. Before insurance, that's how armor worked... if you lost armor you went to a crafter and had it replaced.
     
  22. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    well, considering the reasons these were implemented in the first place, I really dont think they should change. As far as I remember all of these things were done for balance.

    1) bene acts...I see this as checks and balances. one of the benefits fo being in a guild is having guildies...to counter that, one must think of the notion *if you are not with us, you are against us.* All bene does is takes this notion in mind and makes it part of the rules of engagement.

    2) instanced corpses. again checks and balances here...the idea was to give the person responsible for the killing *first pick*, since they took the time to kill it in the first place. after two minutes pass the corpse then becomes available to be looted by all. if memory serves correctly this was changed when people complained about thier loot getting *jacked*.

    3) instanced peerless being phased? I dont agree with this at all. These events affect no one elses gameplay, and actually allow some *fringe* characters the abillity to do things they otherwise wouldnt be able to do.
     
  23. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    The risk of losing your valorite runic hammer created armor set and ungodly weapon is removed in Fel because of insurance. You don't really risk anything by being in Fel and getting attacked by pks since insurance protects everything you are wearing at a very low cost in comparison to the worth of the items insured.

    Now, if the cost of insurance varied based on the quality and relative worth of the item being insured, and that cost was also shown on the pk side when they killed someone, that would make a bit more sense. After all, it costs a lot more to insure a vette than it does to insure a yugo.

    No one, at least not on this thread, is saying that Trammel should be changed at all. This is just a discussion on changes to Fel that would make Fel more, well, Fel like. Removing or tweaking insurance (on Fel) would help that.
     
  24. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Another example of how making UO so item based has damaged the game. People rarely, if ever, go a crafter anymore. Item properties that make the gap between decent weapons and good weapons bigger than ever brought along the need for insurance because so many people complained about losing items they spent so much money on. Repair deeds took the social aspect of crafting away which, in turn, turned a lot of true crafter players away from the game. Nearly impossible to get runics (with the exception of dupes of course) made normal everyday crafters worthless as everyone instead sought out only those few that could get their hands on those hammers, whether legally or otherwise.

    And yes, UO has always had 'item' properties. But anyone that can honestly say that the difference between a vanq weapon and an exceptional player made weapon is even nearly the same as the difference between a valorite runic hammer created weapon and a non hammer created player crafted weapon just baffles me. HCI, DCI, +Mana, ACLU and YMCA properties on weapons and armor just opened up a bag or worms that, even now, the dev team is having to work double time to accomodate.
     
  25. kinney42

    kinney42 Seasoned Veteran
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    Wait, If you Get rid of Insurance, nobody will be running around in all 70's suits. They will be running around in crap suits with crap resists, no arties, no special spellbooks, no uber bows/weapons......so PvP will be back to the stone ages with naked people with GM weapons?
    First person to hit wins! Or Mages will absolutly destroy everybody.....
    OR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The dupers will dupe the crap out of item bless deeds for everybody to use!

    Gee, That sounds fun.
     
  26. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This is, or rather was, a semi-interesting thread with potentially realistic ideas.

    Sad that folks had to turn it into about how they don't like item insurance, so that way only the big Fel guilds that can easily replace stuff and can ensure few deaths and even fewer lootings on the field will ever have anything good in Fel.

    -Galen's player
     
  27. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    So in your eye the loss of a bit of insurance gold you can make up in 10-15 minutes in most dungeons is a real risk? I don't at least personally I don't
     
  28. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Then have Blessed tags go *Poof* when you go into fel also with the exception of traditional items that maintained a blessed status like oh Spell books/rune books but anything with a Non-Blessed variety shouldn't be blessed in Fel...Give Crafters a market they need it.

    Mages wouldn't have any better time than anyone they die they loose their LRC SDI MR and what ever else mods same as a Warrior with their HCI DCI and HLA and HLD. The use of Regs would go up, letting them be a gold sink again, and eventually PvP would revert to Skills more so than items and scripts. Oh and this would pretty much Un-Nerf the thief class. Though I wouldn't be opposed to allowing a Single Item bless like on Siege in Fel if insurance was removed.
     
  29. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I think I understand the issue with 2 and 3 and think there may in fact be technical issues that would cloud them.

    Would you be so kind as to go into a greater depth on 1?

    I remember the Rules of Engagement from Original UO through about 8 months after Trammel went live. Towards the end I thought it had become extremely overly complicated and could not really come to any good end. Not to mention that with the introduction of Trammel, the need for 90% of that stuff should have gone away. The only voices keeping it alive after Trammel went live was the "Tweeners" the ones that chose to have a character(s) that Lived and Played in both Felucca and Trammel, as a Play Style.

    I think I understand what your meaning but a good many years has passed since I left and as has been proven in almost every instance of UO there has been massive changes to what I left, so much so that the similarity is only on the surface.

    And on the Addin of Insurance, Shanna has it right, in my opinion. Removing Insurance is a Show Stopper for most if not all Trammel players.
     
  30. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    If it came to cheap easy to get and replace items being used for PvP, which it would like on Siege because the good stuff would be to valuable to risk loosing, I don't think it would be a show stopper...it would allow Trammel accustomed players to experience PvP without the worry of real loss. This could act to expand the PvP player base.
     
  31. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I do not disagree with that scenario, but I am not sure that scenario would be the more likely scenario.

    To reiterate, if Everyone from Frelucca and Trammel assumed the SP protocol of NOT wearing the GOOD STUFF, then of I am in agreement with you saying Insurance would NOT be a show stopper. I personally believe this would be an enhancment to UO, provided the also scaled the Mobs back to levels that assumed a base line for items that matched up with the NOT Good Stuff.

    Do I realistically think any significant number of Trammel players will buy into that scenario? Not really. Ultimately, the Trammel Players are the Townies and Crafters from the Original UO. If I am right about that then it is not really going to be in their personality make up to Dress Down for the occasion.
     
  32. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    it's not new Felucca content. it is just content copied from Trammel. it should stay in Trammel.

    on insurance: I think removing insurance will just make the game MORE item based than it is. it's easy to make a suit now unlike it was after AOS. for people that want no insurance there is SP.

    on beneficial acts: I can understand the need for this in factions, but it shouldn't apply to people who are not in factions. this is a bug that needs to be fixed.
     
  33. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest



    I'll agree with these.

    I don't agree with this unless they up the loot on Trammel peerless and make them truely instanced or at least give them 2-3 more rooms so you don't have to wait on someone else to get done.

    I don't agree with removing insurance. I'm not sure what old housing rules you are talking about because there have been so many changes. However, I think if you are attacking or being attacked you should not be able to enter a house. If you are in a house and you attack anyone outside of the house you should automatically be placed outside of the house.
     
  34. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    You are wrong. It was designed with Felucca in mind. People were refusing to even attempt these things in Felucca if they were easily raidable. You have powerscrolls for easy raiding, you don't need peerless also. If you want to raid then wait for the people killing Mel to come out or raid them when they are getting keys. If anything, they need to fix the help stuck options in the instanced peerless areas so that you have to come out after killing them. You can easily do a raid on the drop out spot at Lady Mel. Of course, if you are an idiot and field it off you might want to be aware that the pissed off tamer and greater dragon you are trying to attack has a much better chance of surviving in a fielded off area than you do.
     
  35. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Way to have no clue what he is talking about. He isn't talking about factions. He's talking about the fact that if you are not in the same guild as another person they can not res you if you are flagged. It has nothing to do with factions because this is how it works outside of factions.
     
  36. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Impossibility is not fun. Use your head. If you have mel and abscess on you at the same time you aren't going to live through it regardless of how many people you have with you.

    Thank you for posting what is the biggest issue in Felucca and what is the biggest issue in UO. People want to get something for nothing, and eventually its the people that actually do the work that move on because they are tired of having to put up with this mentality. When the prey leaves so do the predators and suddenly you have no one working spawns and no one raiding them either.
     
  37. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    i went and figured out all of the peerless crap during ML beta. i don't find that sort of stuff fun. you are correct that no one is doing the peerless in Felucca because it is the same as Trammel. that's why it should be removed from Felucca. keep it in Trammel. it is a Trammel design and should be in Trammel only. remove it from Fel please.

    please don't add copied Tram content to Fel into UO:SA. that would be a big mistake.
     
  38. Kariny

    Kariny UO Lake Superior News Reporter
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    Along with keeping Trammel from becoming Feluccafriendly. I agree that Fel should be harsher as long as Reds are still prevented from entering Tram.

    Keep Felucca in Felucca. Keep Trammel in Trammel.

    This is all great with me as long as the Reds stay out of Trammel.
     
  39. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    Why are you so bothered by the thought of reds in Trammel if they can't touch you? Just curious as it seems to be a major thing to you.
     
  40. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I agree - of course, bene acts should stay active with factions, but not for anything else. If I want to rez an enemy, so be it, unless that enemy is in a faction.

    Instanced corpses should never have been applied to Fel.

    Instanced peerless ... assuming you mean it the way Galen describes it - when you drop the keys, it is like a Harrower, everyone can get to it. I do not believe completely removing it should be an option at all.
     
  41. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Right ... I never understood this. Do you dislike the actual color? Do you hate seeing red NPCs as well? How on earth could it effect your life if a character whose name happens to show up red but cannot attack you and you can't attack them, is allowed in Tram?
     
  42. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    killing house hiders is fun, let them stay in the houses to fight, I just make fun of them



    like shooting someone across a fence, it's just cheap


    it makes killing them that much better





    the house hider is probably one of the oldest professions in UO lol




    nice to see all the pretty toys they wear now didn't change that (you don't need insurance if you die in a private house)
     
  43. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    I'm for most of these ideas , except the removal of insurance , I cba to fight in crap gear.. why did I spend a ton of gold and countless of hours building nice suits.. so I can PvM in em.... I dont think so.....
     
  44. Kariny

    Kariny UO Lake Superior News Reporter
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    I quickly tired of the Felucca facet after the multitude of leet speek, trash talking, ganking, rez killing, and etc.
    I realized when I was being followed by dragons into my house, attacked in my private house, and constantly harrassed that maybe being blue in Fel was stupid.
    I found a house in Tram and moved. Decent neighbors, I don't get attacked in my house, and my crafter doesn't get harrassed cause she's blue.

    I find that Reds are not receptive to blues, their playstyle, and feel it's their job to degrade us. So, why now after leaving the problem behind should many of us have to put up with it again? You have your own facet that supports your own gameplay so stay there.

    If I go to Fel I resign a char to being red even to just mine ore.
    Players of reds want to come to Tram so make a blue. There is a reason why we have multiple char slots.

    Should they be foolish enough to open Tram to Reds they will get the ignore button and banned from my shop. I do the same now when I meet blue's that are awful. Only difference is I will not recognize reds for the simple fact that I've learned from previous distastful experiences to avoid them.
    So, yes, I will discriminate based on color if you wish to go down that road since you pointed it out.
     
  45. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Um, Kariny, I understand your base thoughts ... but do you not realize that a large volume of the players you see in Luna/Brit and all over Tram are in fact "Reds" on blue characters? Being as we all have between 5 and 7 character slots, keeping reds in Fel does not actually keep the people who play reds in Fel. This being the case, it really doesn't matter what color or name is on the character they are playing, it is still the same person behind the monitor. Jerks are jerks no matter what color they are.

    Please do not misunderstand that I am saying I think reds should be allowed in Tram. What I am saying is it doesn't actually matter. If they keep it as it is, no biggie. If they change it, well, nothing has actually changed, other than allowing someone with a red character to access things like Doom ON that red character - which might be their best character for the job. You wont be surrounded by anyone different than you already are.
     
  46. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    no one cares if reds are allowed in Trammel. that is not what this thread is about.

    this thread is about Trammel themes within Felucca.

    the instanced corpses were put into the game because of the Doom script looting. that is a Trammel issue.

    the Peerless bosses were put into the game because people felt like they weren't getting a fair shot at Doom artifacts. again it has nothing to do with Felucca and they should really be removed and replaced with some new unique Felucca content.

    i don't give a crap what do they do with the Felucca peerless anyway. i'm just illustrating that new Felucca content in SA should be unique to Fel, not just copied from Trammel.
     
  47. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I am mixed on what you are saying here. I am a Fel player, whose main "all around" character (I do both PvM and PvP with her) is currently red. I like being able to do peerless in Fel. I like being able to collect resources in Fel. I like not having to go to Tram to enjoy these aspects of the game. Fel is NOT just about PvP.

    So, I do think that there should be a certain amount of "copying". If you do things like removing instancing (from Fel) it gives these activities a very distinctive difference in Fel and therefore it ISN'T just a copy. However, I ALSO agree that new content added should INCLUDE some content that is specifically geared towards PvP or has a specific PvP twist on it.

    I think it would be very neat if SA was not just one copy in Tram, one copy in Fel, but more like one half in Tram, on half in Fel. I am hoping, since they actually said "some areas of SA will be accessable by reds" that this is what they are doing.
     
  48. Kariny

    Kariny UO Lake Superior News Reporter
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  49. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    And why should the reds have to stay out of Trammel?

    Is it because they enjoy a playstyle in the world you don't? There are plenty of Blue players who will hang out in Tram and Felucca... why can't red players hang out in Trammel too? It wouldn't hurt you one bit if PvPers were allowed to enjoy the PvM aspect of this game too.

    EDIT: So, I read the reason you have for not wanting reds in Trammel... 'you' don't feel like seeing them there.

    I don't see why your opinion on something that doesn't negatively effect you in anyway would be valid or even one under consideration.
     
  50. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Agreed. But don't expect to get any real discussion about the subject from people like that. The 'its a red name so I don't want to see it even though it has no impact on me' mentality is so deeply ingrained that no amount of logic can get through to it.

    But, since I actually believe in the use of logic, I will toss some out anyway.

    Blue pk's are allowed in Trammel any day of the week. The only, and that's ONLY difference between blue pk's and red pk's is that the blues burn off enough counts to get down to 4 and under for their murders.

    The only, and again, that's ONLY, difference between a Red character in Trammel and a Blue character in Trammel is the color of their name. Both have to follow the same ruleset. Both have alts that people interact with all the time.

    The color of a name in Trammel really doesn't give me nightmares like it does these people. I don't toss and turn all night because I saw a priest of mondain while I was running in the woods. Nor would I have nightmares if I saw a red name at Trammel Luna bank. Its silly that people let something so minor as the color of a name have such an effect on their emotional stability.

    But, as someone said, this thread isn't about reds in trammel. As for making fel more unique and more Fel like, I am all for that. Cloning Trammel onto Fel, with the exception of pushthrough and open pvp, really doesn't help make Fel a fully defined entity. The more differences between the two, the better.