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Moving shot mana cost

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Splup, Dec 27, 2009.

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  1. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Heya,

    Moving shot should take much more mana then it takes at the moment. It should be a special that can be used to shoot the last 1 or 2 arrows/bolts, not something you can spam forever.

    For a human moving shot takes 3 mana (40 LMC). If you spam it, it takes 5 mana. Dexers usually have 70-80 mana or more nowdays, and over 10 MR in suit and often meditation too. Basically archers can spam moving shot forever.

    My archer has both hitspell and velocity on my HXbow and composite. With HX I can make like 50+ damage moving shots sometimes, and with 80 medit I have never ran out of mana doing movingshots... And now with imbuing those suits and weapons are really easy to get.

    Moving shot should take like 15 mana, and second movingshot nere 30.

    edit: I mean after skills and 40 LMC it should take that 15 mana and second nere 30. Maybe sama mana cost as Armor Ingore or even bit higher.
     
  2. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Hmm

    Base Cost 15
    200-299 skill points in Archery/Ninjitsu/Stealth -5
    300+ -10

    End result 5 Mana per shot 10 mana for second shot within the 3 second timer window.

    If this is so, would lmc drive it down further?
     
  3. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    You don't really have a archer that you use do you? i see no sense in trying to find ways to lower your own effectiveness and nerf your own character. If you really wanted to nerf your character just don't use moving shot or use something else or lower your int, get rid of med,remove mr from any of your armor, hell go naked. So many ways to lower your own effectiveness so I assume this is another one of those nerf the next template or hate moving shot post disguised in a my item is to strong post.
    Just got to be honest in your attempt,deceiving is not very helpful.
     
  4. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Maybe he doesn't enjoy pvp'ing on an archer. He's just stating that with his character he can do the amount of damage he explained. If this is the case he wouldnt mind getting that ability nerfed because he doesn't use it. He probably prefers a mage or something else.
     
  5. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I have 3 archers on just one of my accounts on 1 shard (straight archer, stealth archer and an archer mage). I dont mind posting screenshots if thats your whole argument that people dont reduce their own effectiveness. A lot of old school PvPers started playing these kind of template because we are superior in adapting to game changed and know what to play to kill quick easy and effective.

    Btw people on my shard is complaining about me switching from a mage to archer and kill them quick with little skill. As an owner of 3 archers that I play effectively in PvP and dominating most of the time... I say "the mana cost and the effectiveness of moving shot is retardedly powerful" and "Archers overall is more powerful". And thats the sole reason i play 1 (actually 3).

    15 mana base human with 120 archery gives -10 which bring the base down to 5
    40lmc cuts 5 mana cost down to 3, spam it cost 6 mana. I have 100+ mana on my archer and regens 1.58 mana per sec. I can do around 80 moving shot specials before i go out of mana.
     
  6. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    But why try to nerf something that gives that particular skill set a certain advantage.Is like me wanting to nerf my sampire or my tamer or my smith or my tailor or my archer or my necro mage or my spellweaver mage or my fisher or my scribe-parry mage or my miner or my alchemist or my myst mage, or my well goddam i can go on for a while as you can see I have almost every possible skillset on all my accounts so every nerf would effect me and thats why i never even advocate any type of nerf for any skill. Every one has there advantages and disadvantages. Remmeber how there is always another person trying to nerf or lower a skill every week.

    So lets say they raise the mana on the archer whats next for the chopping we go focus on the mage and reduce it's effectiveness then next go for the dexter next back to tame next back to archer on and on it goes. Many skills have being made useless from all this over the years and some have gained extreme power because of the destruction of other compatible skills that were able to compete with them.

    There will never be balance cause this is not that type of game. We do not have characters templates that we have to stick with If we did then you can balance between each other.

    We have a collection of skills that we put together to make our own character templates. Because of the nerfing our collection of skills have become more tightly intertwined into templates but we still have a collection of skills therefor balance can never be achieved.

    If we go completely for templates then balance will be achieved but UO will end up being another generic clone and die, aside from that returning to unfettered skills only will be quiete a feat as so many changes have being done going back will be monumental. So we will be stuck like this and just hope for the best. I prefer enhancing each skill instead of nerfing them though.
     
  7. Good point. So let's see how we can enhance mages so that they can compete with archers.
     
  8. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    get 80 dex and add 120 parry.. my 120 archer cant even hit a parry mage 30% of time time.
     
  9. chad

    chad Sage
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    Wow! That is such surprising news!
     
  10. 45 dci should do well, moving shot is less accurate than a normal shot. Otherwise a weapon with HLA works wonders.

    My archer has 100 str, 125 dex and 25 int (50 mana), I use DF a lot for stamina and sometimes a cure, I can only spam if my mana leech goes off and even then I'm short on mana. Standard ABC archer template doesn't have room for meditation or focus.
     
  11. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I quess that's not PvP archer? I don't see much use for moving shot in PvM since monsters are so slow anyways.

    Maybe manacost could be same as for armor ingore, 30 base manacost. Or maybe even 35.

    And someone got it right, I prefer mages but I have an PvP archer too, if I need to fight numbers alone or a player that I know is better then me (read: I know I can't take him 1on1 with my mages). After killing better player then me with my archer I feel like a clown thou...

    Someone pointed out that why would someone want to nerf own template. For example I had samurai which shot like 130hp criticals in PvP when SE was released and I wanted it to be nerfed. Some of us actually play this for fun and not just kills, balanced PvP is more fun :)
     
  12. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Pre-SA maybe 1 player out of 100 had a double hit spell comp so moving shot spamming clowns weren't really a problem. Now every single archer with a mil or two in the bank has a velo+fireball comp with max SSI slapping 40+ dmg per hit.

    The mana cost for the first shot should be 5 with human JoAT + LMC and the next shots would be 10 mana so that you can't spam a special move indefinitely. Alternatively moving shot could receive a slight damage reduction.

    +Long range
    +Low mana cost
    +Does normal damage
    -Receives a hit chance penalty

    Archer's should require more skill to play well imo. There's very few exceptional archers who are capable of using their arsenal of weapons at the right time, timing dismounts, mortals and armor ignores. There's a huge amount of these one-button wonders who think they're the kings of PvP when they run in a 5-man archer squad spamming moving shots with double hit spell comps.

    Like Splup said: moving shot should be used as a finishing touch in PvP - not as your main attack.
     
  13. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    damn ... I didn't know it was that crazy ... well, mages, make a macro for mana vampire, and even field, no? or are there many mana draughting resist archers? hm hehe
     
  14. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest


    Forgot to mention this right here is what makes UO unique. In a template class game no archer will have more than maybe 30 or 40 mana as people are forced to be strictly a archer. In Uo you can have mage archers-necro paladians and a hole world of things only your imagination and creativenes plus those sneaky nerfs are the limit. That is why balance can never ever be achieved but UO PvP will keep on going.

    When something is truly over powered compare to all the other nerfed skills then they step in. Imagine a yesturday evasion dexter against a yesturday ancient wyrm handler and a yesturday tank mage "my favorite" oh and yesturday inscribe mage before caps. Now that would be pretty balanced as balance can be in UO fun fight.
    There incredible powers don't mean much against incredible foes my balancing up theory. Though when one of these get nerfed then they end up having to nerf everyone slowly and hard and that brings us to today.
     
  15. Splup

    Splup Guest

    But Moving shot still spends too little mana. It should be something to be used to try to get last 1 or 2 hits, not something you can keep shooting endlessly.

    No matter how unique UOs skillbased system is doh...
     
  16. Splup

    Splup Guest

    PvP archers usually have resists, only stealtharchers usually lack it.
     
  17. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    You see...this is part of the issue. If it was simply a matter of archers not carrying resist...mana vamp is simple enough. However, nowadays archers have more than ample room to add resist...so aside from playing a mage that can actually disarm...what would you suggest?

    Things that do not work...
    1) para...trapped box
    2) debuffs...apples and faction bandies make casting this stuff pointless
    3) BO...archers run...
    4) Spell plague...see blood oath
    5) sleep...ugh...this dont work if you have resist...no chance of resist failure
    6) pain spike...chug a lug...chug a lug
    7) large dump...chug a lug...balanced bow with double hit spell, 160 stam, AND bandies ftw!!
    8) disarm...whats the point? they run...rearm...disarm you back...then moving shot you to death...

    Yeah...stuff is corny man...I am done with field pvp until something gets fixed...nerfed...whatever.

    OH...and EA...stop releasing these frigging publishes unless you test them first. If you didnt forget...you still have PLENTY of people who signed up for the SA beta...how about using them for testing so we do not have anymore dupes, illegal skill buffs, or other exploits going around again? (did I say again? i meant continue)
     
  18. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    /Thread... Restroom , I think you used this thread as your toilet. Well said. :scholar:
     
  19. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Ok back to your point lets say a change went in. Wouldn't a simple mana leech on the bow "easily done with a sacrifice of a mod placed elsewhere but undesireble sacarfice" combine with mana draught potion every 10min if battle last that long,plus some added intel maybe a few other things or even less things will just end back with moving shot taking the same average amount of time? So all in all after the change it still be useless as there are ways to counter it.
    Just saying why make it harder on yourself to do the same thing but everybody will eventually be able to do it again anyway maybe find even a better method in the mean time and then another nerf post has to be done.
     
  20. Pwny

    Pwny Visitor

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    Dont forget that they can use specials while chugging, confidencing, and using aids.
     
  21. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    I've never seen a player using HML weapon in PvP. Besides, they'd have to give up something (SSI, Balanced, 2x Hitspell, DI) for HML. The damage-per-mana for moving shot is probably the highest there is, 30+ dmg for 5 mana.

    EDIT: The swing speed isn't really the issue, the issue is that at best you can do 40+ damage per hit to 70's resists for 5 mana all while moving, healing and chugging.
     
  22. Pwny

    Pwny Visitor

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    Moving shot should be changed all together. It should put your archery against their weapon skill. It should just be a % chance to hit based on your archer. Like maybe 30% at 120 archery. 40% with 45 dci. That would stop those crap disarm then swap to comp moving shot people down god mode guys that think they are good.
     
  23. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    True though it's doable removing the DI from the bow and replacing it with mana leech it would be a change but it will bring back the archer moving shot to where it was. Because such mods would be harder to get then there would be less people going that route but those people whiout competition from other move archers would be pretty up there in scale. Just a thought but thats incase such nerf happened in that way as you know EA there is never a moderate with them it's either nerf to uselessness or introduce to godhood.
     
  24. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Well possible solutions would be increasing the mana cost, reducing moving shot damage, reducing swing speed when spamming or reducing chance to hit even further. Personally I'd vote for the increased mana cost. Special moves shouldn't be indefinitely spammable, especially when talking about a powerful special move such as moving shot.
     
  25. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    moving shot is definitely the most overpowered special in the game, either make it take the same mana as armor ignore or put in moving melee weapon just to balance it
     
  26. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Seriously, go try out shooting armor ingores with mana leech weapon against other player, then add there that moving shot uses mana even if you miss it, so count how many HITS you can make in a row with armor ingores. First one takes 14 mana, second 28. So if you have full 70 mana you can do 3 shots or with good mr and you leech a bit (not even nere as much as in PvM) so maybe 4. And that's from full mana. Then come here and read your post again.

    Also you'd have to waste one mod.
     
  27. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    create food...nuff said on that.
     
  28. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Also if you remove DI totally, you can only put 450 intensity. If you leave 1 DI it still takes imbuing slot.
     
  29. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Does it reset the mana cost?
     
  30. sdk

    sdk Guest

    You are very obviously an archer who will be SOL when your crappy no skill templates get nerfed. Stop whining noob.
     
  31. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    heh i agree, im sick of people that abuse the overpowerness of archery, people need to learn how to earn their kills with legit templates rather than finding the simplest and cheeziest way to get a kill
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Yes but thats if you imbue. This is why I said not all will have it. Wll make heartwood kits a bit more expensive again which I would like. People trying to make better bows for themselves.
     
  33. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    See you have not read my past post too well. If you did you will know I have almost every template and pvp is far from my primary activity. I look at things logicaly and how things will effect multiple aspects of the game not just one skill. Not sure why I even responded to this but I hate to remain silent when someone tries to call me out.
     
  34. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Heartwood runic adds 4 properties.

    DI 35% (arms lore)

    SSI (heartwood)
    Hit Fireball/Harm/Lightning/Marrow (heartwood)
    Hit Velocity (heartwood)
    Balanced (heartwood)

    So you can't get a DI+SSi+HF+Velo+Balance+HML bow even if you craft a gazillion heartwood kits.
     
  35. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Balanced pvp yes sir. you got my vote on that one :)
    And yes, 5 mana for any special attack is a joke.
     
  36. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    No kidding...especially when compared to a mage with 40 LMC...it is the same cost as a fireball (and I have to stop to frigging cast lol)

    Whoever decided balanced bows were good for the game can eat worms...lots and lots...of worms.
     
  37. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    If you don't pvp, then your opinion doesn't have much backing, does it? You mentioned mana leach essentially removing the balance by upping the mana cost for moving shot, your opinions their are mistaken. Mana leach leaches 30% of the weapon damage (not hit spell) to the user, if it goes off. The chance it goes off is a random number generated from 0- a certain % of the listed % chance, I forgot how much is actually lost in the new equation and I don't really care to look it up.

    Next, bows leaching property maxes are halved, making the max any bow can have 50% without SSI (if I recall correctly). So, with that being said,

    Let's say your moving shot costs 20 mana with 300 combat skill and 40 lmc,
    you hit for 20 bow damage + fireball + velo and your leach goes off.
    You spend 20 mana, and you leach back 6 mana, you're down 14 mana,
    now the cost doubles to 40 mana for the second hit,
    you hit the same and leech back 6 mana,
    you're down 34, thats IF you leech.
     
  38. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Just because PVP is not my priority my 10+years knowing all the ins and outs and changes in this game qualify me just the same. I stop PVP seriously but still PVP when I get the chance and as I might not be top of game anymore I can hold my own with any of my different characters I use against any other character used against me. Ganks not included but can survive a run for it.When I lose I lose Im not expecting to win against everyone all the time or even most of the time. Knowledge is the most value force in this game- items,templates are nothing without the knowledge.

    As I said I didn't just say rely on mana leach I said add alot of other items to negate the mana like most skills in the game becoming a more mana heavy archer with stat increase items, external balms,etc. Mana leech is just one part of the equation. Still many possibilities. You don't honesty belive that nobody can really get around a increase in mana for moving shot special or find a even better alternative,
     
  39. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    If change was done right...no...they would not be able to get around the cost. Right now though the cost is not enough...

    As another poster pointed out though, although you may know the game in and out...if you arent up on the latest and greatest of pvp...you might consider staying out of this one. Mana leech on a wep in pvp has not been viable for some time...and if you were as knowledgeable as you claim you would know this.

    Just my two cents...not trying to knock ya...just hopefully give you a bit better perspective for which to view the issue.
     
  40. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    As an arguably dominant archer in pvp I still think moving shot could use some touch up.
    Easies way I would do it is to raise the base mana cost to moving shot from 15 to 25 same as mortal special. This way the first shot will only cost 9 mana and 18 thereafter.

    That's around 10 moving shot for my archer (I can do 10 mortals in a row with double mana cost). If you construct your archer suit properly you should be looking at 120hp/170ish stam/120 mana. I also have 80di 45hci and 45dci 30hld on my suit not counting weapon. So all I need is 20di on my weapon to cap out and I do have some godly imbued bows crafted for my archer. As my weapons don't need hci and hld and a tiny amount of di to cap me out all around. My suit only cost me around 5m worth of ingreds (coz of failure to enhance mainly) with matching faction armors.

    I think 10 moving shot is still plenty (currently I can do at least 80 moving shots). I know my gear is above average but its coz many people just can't craft the right ****. As I stated before cost me 5m to get an all 70 corpse proof suit with capped 50ep 40lmc 45hci and 45dci and 80di. I will leave the rest to you fellow archers to figure out but imo any archer don't agree with the fact that they are currently more powerful than the rest didn't play/construct their toon/suit correctly.
     
  41. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Ok... so with what I said, if it costs 20 mana with all the bells and whisles to lower the special moves mana cost, and you have 100 int, a mana leach bow and gain 2 mana per second and use mana drought which gives lets say 40 mana every 10 minutes ( i think it's 20 but I don't remember ) So you leach every hit, gaining back 6 mana, woot, so first you loose 16 mana, then you loose 36, 2 attacks you've lost 52 mana, you have 48 left, so you fire a 3rd shot and now have 12 mana left, you down a mana drought potion and gain back 40 mana, you have 52 and fire another shot now depending on your mana regain, you might be able to fire yet another shot, but thats it, now you're done, you need to wait 10 minutes to down another mana drought, or let it regain while hoping you leach... If you don't really know what you're talking about, you should stop defending something that's obviously overpowered. I don't even pvp. You see, i'm being objective, you're not, you're blindly defended archers, I'm defending balance.
     
  42. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I am old school and I care about balance not nerfing archer into the ground.
    Moving shot being the only powerful ranged attack (or the only ranged attack) that's usable at full running speed really shouldn't cost just 3 mana (6 to spam) especially an full running attack that's capable of dealing 35+ dmg to 70resist.

    We don't want to make moving shot wothless. It simply should be on par with other specials. Again one simple fix is to make it same mana cost as mortal. This means it will only cost 9 mana to do the 1st shot and 18 after that. Also possibly making it not comsuming mana when miss or parried.

    This guarrentee a reasonable spammability and its very reasonable for such a unique special that's also so powerful (mainly due to item imbue). Archers are very powerful as is, that's why people playing one (even old school pro mage players). If a player that only played mages all their life and pick up a well constructed suit and bows and set their macros in 10 minutes and can start wrecking people in pvp (even against some of the most famous great pvp mages) you know something is not right. The player skill requirement for an archer is just too low compare to their effectiveness.

    Do I play an archer? Yes. Do I think archer takes little skill to play? Absoulutely. Am I going to play it after people called me archer noobs because I kill them so quick with no skill involved? Of course... whatever helps me to kill. Its simple as that.
     
  43. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    You looking at it like am defending archers. I defend all skills mages,archers,swords,tamers,fishers,crafters,pvm,sampires,etc.. I defend all players including your prefered character. But I am just saying a alternative will be found just like a alternative has being found for every single nerfed abilitie and skill in game well except thiefs they really got killed on production shards. Those that alternatives couldn't being found like my favorite character the tank mage then other mix of skills have taken there place. If someone wants to spam moving shot Warultima has a good middle ground without making the ability useless in PVP like a few others I can think about. Im not even sure if that skill is really used in PVM so anything done might not effect that playstyle in game.

    At the moment maybe if alternative can't be found even using all the items I posted then another better method of doing things will be found or another item in the future will be added to be able to do it. Or another skill will be used more and then everyone will start trying to get that nerf.

    All in all the only reason it's overpowered it's because everything else is underpowered. Add a moving magic skill to magery add a range special to melee that would equal the abilitie of moving shot by balancing up and you will make many people happy and archers keep there move equaled."Sadly this will take more work than just killing a abilitie so you don't see this happening often"
     
  44. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    All one has to do is go to the gate on thier shard and look around. I guarantee 90 percent of the time there are far more archers than any other template. Ive been playing almost 11 years now and players have always flocked to overpowered templates. The gate is a perfect example. Balanced bows, endless specials, ridiculous ssi,crazy stam increase, hit spell, velocity, hit area, hld, confidence, bandies,apples(mage has to debuff just to do solid damage)and pot enhance have continuosly buffed up archery. Add the fact that the so called "uber archers" usually run(speedhack engaged) at the first sign of an effective mana dump and I fail to see how anyone can defend the stupidity of moving shot. As far as parry on mages go the parry simply neuters them offensively and quite simply if the archer fails to hit they simply keep running off until an extremely lucky dice roll goes off. Quite simply archers do much more damage per second all while being halfway off screen to begin with.
     
  45. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    LoL I dont disagree with you at all but am laughing at this part "I guarantee 90 percent of the time there are far more archers than any other template."
    I've heard it said about tamers before that necro mages,parry mages,tank mages,etc..
    Everyone plays the best template there is at the momment if archers were nerfed to be weaker than another template then that template will be the flavor of the month then that one will have 90% of players playing it then that will be nerfed and the next set of skills is next. Proves my point of a never ending of nerfes to inevidably make another set of skills more power than the others. There will never be true balance it's impossible some set of skills are just gonna naturaly be stronger than another set of skills.

    I guess it's the lottery hoping that one of the characters you have or your favorite playstyle wins the jackpot this month before you have to give the money back to the government and they issue another lottery all the while trying to steal the winners ticket :).
    But as you can see am just talking about the broader range of nerfs and balances and so forth. Everything gets nerf and everything gets improved just depends which publish.
     
  46. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    unless they nerf sampires, i don't think any other template should get a nerf. if anything, all other templates should be made stronger as well.

    i know, just make a sampire. i am. i AM. but isn't it just a little silly that there is one template out there that can solo anything, while no other template comes close?

    -waits for the sampire sympathizers-
     
  47. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    MMK...I really hope that was sarcasm I sense...

    Bring yer silly sampire to fel anytime Sally...

    you may want to bring some tucks...



    On a serious note...this thread is about moving shot...and how it needs some attention. If you feel sampires need some special kind of care bear love...please spread the word in another thread. Thank you.
     
  48. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Nerfing one ability doesn't equal nerfing a whole template--if nerfing moving shot would break archers it just means that something is horribly wrong if they revolve around one special move.
     
  49. Splup

    Splup Guest


    I think it should cost mana even if you miss, cause otherwise you can just shoot it till you hit, which means trying to run away is still useless, especially for a mage.

    I think like 3 moving shots should be max you can make in a row. It's supposed to be used when your enemy tries to run away lowhealth, which means 1 or 2 hits should do the job. If you miss, enemy survives and you can't keep continue chasing with moving shots.

    I don't think that's nerfing to the ground, it would still be very useful, but not overpowered like it is at the moment.
     
  50. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I get that you'r talking about wider range of templates, but I what I don't get is what you want to be done then?

    Everything should just be left like it is cause it's useless to try to find balance?

    Lets just bring back 130hp criticals and FC4 mages with 50 sdi. Or maybe glacial staff specials too...

    What I'm trying to say is that we can atleast get much closer to balance, and we are closer to balance now then we were when AoS was lauched or SE was launched. SA thou made PvP more unbalanced again favoring dexers (especially archers) so much,
     
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