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My solution for both PvP and Stealing.

Discussion in 'Ultimate RPG Discussions [Archive]' started by Bombadil, Aug 28, 2012.

  1. Bombadil

    Bombadil Guest

    I know that this issue is still under the question, so why not simply have 2 separate servers.

    Server 1: Harcore. Full pvp and stealing.
    Server 2: Normal. Limited pvp and stealing. Which means you could attack players only if they are willing to battle. And stealing could work similarly (not sure how yet).

    It wouldn't be like Trammel and Felucca, because players wouldn't be able to just jump from one server to the other, but it would provide both types of players a server they like to play on.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Good topic. I don't have insight, but I have a follow-up.

    One of the things Richard Garriott mentioned was that folks wouldn't run into other players very often, outside of the people on their friends list. He also confirmed that there'd probably be stealing. How's it going to work if you can only steal from the few people you know?
     
    #2 Taylor, Aug 28, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
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  3. FatMagic

    FatMagic Journeyman
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    Not fully fleshing this out... but... while I see the business aspect & newbie friendly aspect of having two servers - this will in effect create Trammel & Felucca all over again. Albeit this isn't UO, it still is following that thread according to Lord British. I think split servers of different styles needs to be avoided if we are to preserve what we love about the spirit of Ultima, and UO, again.

    Syrus - that is a very good point that I think many of us are not considering. I honestly hope this ISN'T the case because that would pretty make any conversations about PvP, Risk vs Reward null and void (excluding Hardcore/Permadeath conversations). It would be good to get solid clarification on this from Lord British.
     
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  4. Bombadil

    Bombadil Guest

    It is not Trammel & Felucca. Trammel and Felucca were on the same server. My version proposes 2 different servers.

    Hmm...but what if I don't have any friends who play? What if I just want to make my own way in the new world?
     
  5. FatMagic

    FatMagic Journeyman
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    Yeah I do know they were on the same server, but it felt like two different worlds/servers when you visited. You know? And you went into each world completely different. But if this is the best way to solve the problem, that's fine. I'll be on the open PvP server :D

    In the same boat Bombadil. I don't generally have the time to commit to playing with friends, so I forge on ahead by myself - but at the same time, I love the thriving nature of a bustling, full world. I want to see *real* people in the towns and the world. I hope the game is not dependent upon any social network structure requiring friends to fully enjoy the game... *shudder*.
     
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  6. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    To address both of these concerns, in the interview, he talked a bit about how he and his team are setting up the world. There is no massive server like EVE, but there are no shards like in UO or servers like WoW. It's going to have a completely different dynamic from what I understood.

    The details of it haven't really been spelled out, but think of it this way: You're in an open world. You decide, "Hey, I want to go to this dungeon". If your friends happen to be in the same dungeon, you will be there and you will see them. If you are NOT online, he wants "You" to be an NPC they can take with them, which is why I believe in previous interviews he talked about synchronous and asynchronous play options.

    He also brings up an interesting point that while yes, it can be good to see lots of players.. Most of the time, you just ignore them. The ones you DO tend to interact with are usually your friends and guildmates. Now there will be some method by which unassociated users will interact, but not too many specifics. I have to get my notes from work, but it will be done in a rational fashion.. I'll get the exact wording tomorrow.

    It's an interesting approach from what I understand about it, but we really won't get the full gist of it until they spell it out in detail.. But whatever it is going to be different from anything else we've played to date. He's really trying to change the entire paradigm again... And I think it's a good thing.
     
    #6 Coldren, Aug 28, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
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  7. FatMagic

    FatMagic Journeyman
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    Right on. Well said Coldren. That is what I'm really hoping for. An entire change in the MMO/RPG paradigm. It has been generally stale for a few years, and needs something different. I have confidence Richard is one of the few who can pull it off.
     
    #7 FatMagic, Aug 28, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
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  8. Neves

    Neves Visitor

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    When RG alluded to a "Friends Only" on your screen and how it would ease up server loads, I understood the load balancing aspect of it, but was sort of taken aback by the "friends only" play, because I play Facebook games and have like 3 friends who play Facebook games, so I really sort of don't go anywhere with these types of games. I also think this strategy takes the "MM" out of the "MMORPG" formula. To be honest, I would have a hard time enjoying an online game where I looted a sweet sword or a gun and wasn't able to trot out into fantasy land to test it on a stranger.
     
  9. senescal

    senescal Adventurer

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    Test it on friends. Just make sure if you have more friends than swords.
     
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  10. ArturoGurrola

    ArturoGurrola Visitor

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    Was I the only one who was listening when Mr. Garriot said "[...] You will see friends on the screen AND some strangers too [...]" (or something like that, I don't recall the exact phrasing).
     
  11. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    The description he gave was a bit more broad, and it's important to remember that URPG is *NOT* a MMO - It's a hybrid that focuses on session-based gameplay with MMO elements.

    He described it as, think of it as a single player game first and foremost in your mind's eye. Then, as you go places, if your friends are there, you will find them. He even went as far as to say that it may be an option to have your character be an NPC your friends can take with you in the event that you are not online (Synchronous and Asynchronous gameplay).

    He also mentinoed that you will "bump" into other players when traveling the world, but they will be "opportunistically" brought in. It's a complete guess at this point (Something I would eventually like to ask him or the team more details about), but I'm guessing what will happen is friends of friends may be pulled in, or they will have some sort of algorithm to determine how to get people in the same space to give it a more vibrant feel. Maybe it will do something like, "Ok, this guy likes to PvP everyone he sees.. Let's put him in the same space as this other guy who does the same." Again, this is a complete guess.

    Details aren't out there yet, but I hope to find out.
     
    #11 Coldren, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  12. FatMagic

    FatMagic Journeyman
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    Almost sounds like a hybrid of a Social Network Game + Guild Wars 1 + UO + Single Player Game. Of course I know it won't be just that, but it's the first thing my mind is grabbing on to that already exists. And I think we (as a community) will need to come to terms with this, because as it stands, many people are expecting it to be just like UO - but it won't be... which could cause some disappointment if that doesn't become clear from the start. I'm looking forward to what Richard continues to reveal to us over the next few months.
     
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  13. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    Absolutely true, and couldn't agree more. It WILL be different, and everywhere I'm posting from here on out that touches on the fact that it is NOT an MMO, I'm going to make that clear. We need to find out a lot more to determine just how different it's going to be.

    I think I understand and even agree as to why. I mean I know I personally don't require lots and lots of people (strangers or otherwise) to enjoy an MMO. If I talk or interact with a handful of people a day, it's an odd day. I tend to do a lot of things in seclusion, when I have the time in short bites, so this sounds like it might be something right up my ally. But at the same time, there are occasions where I do appreciate being able to meet a stranger. So hopefully this element won't be completely lost, just handled differently.

    If I get the chance to talk to RG or the team, it's on the top of my personal question list.
     
    #13 Coldren, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  14. Neves

    Neves Visitor

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    I agree that people will be disappointed if it doesn't come off a lot like UO as far as gameplay and genre as an "MMO", since Garriot has called this title a "spiritual successor" to UO. The thing that set UO apart from 100 other RPGs was its MMO sandbox quality, and the unbridled ability to roleplay good and evil. Without this, what similarities would exist between the two titles, then? I find myself wondering what is the point of canvassing for opinion about PvP if other players are only presented "opportunistically" instead of in real-time. Instanced PvP is alright and I enjoy it, but it lacks the heart-thumping nature of open PvP. Same with stealing.

    I think part of our job as a community is not to just go along and report what we hear from the developer, but to challenge it as well, ask the hard questions, and let players openly express their opinions about it.
     
    #14 Neves, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
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  15. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    I agree that we should challenge and ask hard questions about what we are told. I think they're even expecting it.

    However, if the way I believe it works is true, this is not a roleplay or PvP inhibitor. The real loss is CONCURRENCY. You won't be able to see EVERYONE at the same time, which is fine, because in most cases as he believes, it's irrelevant. You can still play a role of any kind at any time, among friends. You can still at least PvP and fight with friends.

    The big questions that have not been answered, and must be asked is, how are we going to do these things with STRANGERS? How do the mechanics work in such a way that I have the opportunity to come across the path of others I've never met before? How do I sell them goods? How are we going to have houses and real estate "in the game world", not instanced, if not everyone shares the same world space, to say nothing of PvP and thieving? (A friend probably won't steal from me or kill me.. Too often.)

    I can see how you could technically meet "strangers" through "friends", though. Say I have only 1 friend (... Pretty accurate). I see my 1 friend. However, my friend has 2 friends. So now there's 4 of us, and 2 of them are people I don't necessarily know. They each have 5 friends, so now there are 14 people, only 1 of which I may know.. Etc., etc. You can even see how that can actually BUILD a community, because you meet the friends of friends of friends etc... Reminds me of the cliche, "A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet."

    The question is, how far out does it go? Unless everyone friended to everyone can end up in the same gamespace, what's the cutoff before it must all be concurrent? Or are they banking on the fact that all players will not necessarily be on AT THE SAME TIME, which is why and where asynchronous gameplay comes in. That way, your world is filled with players, even if they are not on at the same time, and I guess technically, never should be. And that COULD be why they don't need a megaverse or a shard structure. These social structures may go out to say, 1000 people, which is LESS than a server supports, but since you're not on concurrently, and the "Scenes" that you go to are separate from the world map, and then only shared by people who are there, the structure starts to make sense, and the lack of simultaneous concurrency among THOUSANDS of players would be more transparent, but still giving it an MMO feel.

    Tough questions, all. And we should drill'em for it. :D
     
    #15 Coldren, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  16. Bombadil

    Bombadil Guest

    To be completely honest with you I don't see myself enjoying this game if it is not an MMO. The MMO's always drew me in with the huge magical world, full of living souls. Go out there, make friends and enemies, be what you want to be. If this would be something more like Guild Wars, then I would be seriously let down. But that's just me.
     
  17. Lord_Toast

    Lord_Toast Guest

    Currently my only comment at the moment is you shouldn't be able to 'pick pocket' a backpack.
    Specially if they are wearing said backpack.
     
  18. H3atmiser

    H3atmiser Guest

    I think it's safe to say that most of us being hardcore UO veterans are definitely stepping out of our comfort zone for this new paradigm shift the game is heading as far as player interaction goes. I, myself, and extremely wary of this new system, however, Richard Garriott has yet to disappoint me so I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt here. I feel that the matter he talks about will be incredibly difficult to construe without showing first hand, anyways.

    As far as the original post goes, I'm ardently against the segregation of server types; with such a system in place, the game seems to lose its feeling of unity. When I want to experience a world, I want to interact with other players who prefer different play-styles than me -- and it is painfully obvious that when such hardcore and casual server types exist, the players will flock to the server of their play-style, leaving the majority of casual players out of the equation for hardcore servers.
     
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  19. Pito Wilson

    Pito Wilson Visitor

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    I believe that if the world is well designed there should be no need for any type of segregation. It can be made to accommodate different kind of players.

    About the social gaming thing, I played ultimate collector for a while, and in fact I started a facebook account just to play it, then I used it for my business because I dont use facebook.

    It was a very lonely place, and though money could be made quite simply if you had lots of time and cared to log back in to check how much junk you could buy from random faceless unknown impersonal chests. That was a time ago. Even though looking at what other people cared to collect could be interesting for a while, but not that much.

    If I am not mistaken mostly everyone here must have seated, from time to time, in front of his pc, so many years ago, just to have your char stand around Brit, reading all the curiosities that popped all around you. Strangers with who you could interact, neighbors, allies and foes, new friends, new enemies.

    That was the essence of UO, go and play it now in an empty server, spend a whole day hunting crap to get back to your house with no one around you. Its a sad place. You could easily find a single player designed game to grind your gears more than lonely uo.

    Whats the problem with losing?? it makes you become better or quit. If you had it and lost it because someone smarter than you stole it, well, get it again chum. Some one killed you? go to healer.

    Richard! Remember!

    Ye cannot have thy cake and eat it too!

    If you want to make the Ultimate RPG then you have to make the ultimate sacrifice! It has to be like the ultimate rpg has to be!

    Fear is the mind destroyer!


    Sincerely,
    Pito Wilson
    El Presidente
     
  20. Sauteed Onion

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    I think a major turn off in pvp is the drive for people to use cheats hacks and exploits, combined with the negative attitudes and smash mouthing of the people who stoop to using those 3rd party programs, and exploits. It's hard to provide a gaming world completely free of that or even one that takes a noticeable stance against that type of behavior without heavy monitoring. I don't mind reaping massive loads of junk out of a cave filled with Filthy McNasty's just to get my face smashed off and all that stuff taken away, so long as the person that does it isn't a total tool and gots to cheat to do it and then spend the next 30 minutes spamming UMADBRO!?!?!

    I played mostly on PVP servers in World of Warcraft (And I'm not particularly fond of WoW) and liked it enough, I spent a long time with Lineage 2 both pay to play and free to play (and this is where cheats and hacks are basically at the highest level you'll see in any game ever, I promise you. You can check out the official L2 forums and just pick a section and you'll see post after post of people complaining about bots or pvp scripters it's just crazy, play the game and when you do come across some big guild you'll see it in action not only does it suck it's just insane that people feel the need to make that how they play the game. I have been in vent and teamspeak with some of these people and it's like the ultimate thrill for them). Granted cheaters and hackers are gonna cheat and hack regardless, but it'll keep people from wanting to participate in your game if it can't be kept extremely nipped in the anus.
     
  21. XDarkxMageX

    XDarkxMageX Visitor

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    No, dont split up the population. Mix everyone in together on the same server to provide a more diverse experience in the game. Those who cant handle it can leave, those who can handle it will only help to enrich the ingame world.