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Mystic Thrower : how is it done ?

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by popps, May 17, 2014.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    There is something about this template which just does not add right to me......

    The Thrower warrior part needs dexterity and, the higher the better....
    Particularly when using a Soul Glaive..... even at SSI CAP of 60%, to swing a Soul Glaive at 1.25 it is necessary a dexterity of 210 !!! Not much room left out of the 255/260 total pool for intelligence and strength is there...... ??

    The Mysticist mage part needs intelligence for mana and, the higher the better (plus some more as Mana is also needed for special moves...)

    But then there is also the problem of strength !

    Strength for such a template would be needed not only to survive (hit points) but also to increase the throwing range not to mention to carry stuff...

    So how can such a template have high values in all of these 3 stats ? Impossible.

    Sure, some help can come from Hit Mana Leech on the weapon and from dexterity/strength/intelligence bonuses but this comes at the expense of many other properties likewise important to the template like Hit Chance Increase, Swing Speed Increase, Damage Increase, Lower Reagent Cost, Lower mana Cost etc. etc.

    So, what would be the best balance for such a template for stats both base and bonuses ?

    Another big issue I find with this template is the necessity to have spell channelling on the weapon and, if using a shield (the 3 throwing weapons are all one-handed...), also have spell channelling on the weapon, That's another 2 properties' slots lost just to be able to cast mysticism spells and throw at the same time....

    Also, having imbuing makes several Mysticism spells stronger. Is it worth the investment in 120 imbuing skills (which it much likely means not being able to have anatomy or healing....)?

    Bottom line is, I am having a hard time to lay out the design of what suit and properties, as well as weapon/shield and properties, and stats, such a template should be built with.....

    It seems to me an impossible Template to build because favouring the throwing means hurting the spellcasting and viceversa........

    Thanks !
     
    #1 popps, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  2. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    For swing speed you need Stamina. Stamina = DEX + Stamina Increase
    To get 210 Stamina you need 60 SI but if you take a hit your Stamina drops. It also drops when you move. So you need at least 211 Stamina if you don't take hit otherwise you need as much as possible.
    You can reforge 10 on each armor piece, you can get 5 SI on each jewel, you can get 1 SI on Corgul's Sash.

    You need 150+ Stamina (I suggest 170-180) to get 1.5sec swing speed. Usually a Thrower has 1.5s (before reforging came 1.25s wasn't possible)

    A thrower needn't more mana than a standard dexxer need. He uses a weapon to kill and mysticism for support spells only. You can't swing and cast mystic spells at the same time (when you are casting you are not throwing).

    Enchant gives you spell channeling.

    A thrower must not use shields. With a shield he would got a penalty to hit chance.

    Without high focus/imbuing mysticism spells are pretty useless. A mystic thrower must have 120 Mysticism and 120 Focus.
     
  3. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Thank you for your reply.

    But I do not understand if you think a Mystic Thrower is possible or not.....

    UOGuide http://www.uoguide.com/Statistics says : "You can gain a maximum of 125 points in any particular stat naturally. You can, however, exceed 125 points in any stat through use of items which increase a particular stat when worn. The combined sum of your natural stat points plus what you gain from any stat-altering items cannot exceed 150."

    From your explaination, I understand that to reach 211 stamina one has to reach 150 real base stamina points and then add 60 stamina points (10 x 6) from 6 armor pieces and 1 point from Corgul's sash.

    But 150 is more than the 125 that UOGuide says is max possible and 211 is more then the 150 that UOGuide says is max possible for the combined sum.

    So what gives ?

    But even assuming that it was possible to have 150 real stamina and 61 stamina from items, this leaves only 255 (or 20) minus 150 = 105 (or 110) for BOTH strength and intelligence......

    Since Mysticism NEEDS mana (from intelligence) to cast spell, may I ask HOW a Mystic Thrower is ever supposed to be able to have enough strength AND mana to increase the throwing range AND also be able to cast spells while throwing the weapon ??

    Reforging ALSO for strength and intelligence to have +60 strength and +60 intelligence from items ?

    But then, how on earth can a Mystic Thrower ALSO put on the items LRC, SSI, HCI, DI, HLD etc. etc. ??
    Especially when it is not advisable to use a shield......

    A one-handed weapon has imbuing weight of 500 BUT one can use shield for more properties....

    A two-handed weapon does not allow use of shield (no extra properties from shield) BUT has imbuing weight of 600 (so more properties on weapon....).

    In throwing there is ONLY one-handed weapons and ONLY imbuing weight of 500 max. So, LESS imbuing weight and no shield ??? This equals to less properties !!!

    I do not see how a Mystic Thrower, effective in BOTH throwing and casting Mysticism spells, can be done...

    And for skills ?

    120 Throwing
    120 Tactics
    120 Mysticism
    120 Focus
    90 Chivalry
    120 Imbuing ?
    XXX ???

    Also, since a Thrower is ranged (no contact with the enemy), I assume that it is then best to use barbed leather armor since there is no risk of stamina loss and it allows full mana regen for the Mysticism mana pool necessities??

    If ever this template is possible..... what artifacts would be preferable to use ?

    Also, since Gargoyles get a bonus both for Throwing AND Mysticism (race bonus), I assume that the best Mystic Thrower should be a Gargoyle, right ?
     
    #3 popps, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  4. Kurik

    Kurik Adventurer
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    Just an obvious thing is that only gargoyles can learn throwing. Also with right kind of armor pieces you can have 70 to 100 mana. Which as support skill is more than enough. It's not an easy template to build. Requires lot of right kind armor pieces, jewelry etc..
     
  5. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Mystic Thrower must be a Gargoyle because only gargoyles can use throwing weapons.
    A gargoyle hasn't throwing bonus. Race Mysticism bonus doesn't stack with trained Mysticism. So a thrower need to have 120 throwing and 120 mysticism from real skills and items.

    You needn't Imbuing. You need Focus or Imbuing. Focus is better so you needn't Imbuing.

    You can do without LRC.

    You can't reforge 10 INT or 10 STR on an armor piece.
    260 - is max total BASE stats. With items you can have 450 stats (150 each).
    You can get 30 str and 30 dex from potions.

    You needn't special mana to cast myst spells. AI is much more expensive than myst spells are you going to use. 70 mana is OK, 90 is better, no need more.
     
  6. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    If you have enough gold it's better to make mystic archer.
    Better range, 50 more weapon intensity and ability to enhance it, studded armor is much cheaper than stone armor...
    The only disadvantage - you will need to switch to a balanced bow to use your healing stone.

    If you haven't much gold than a thrower is better.
     
  7. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    A mystic thrower is possible to balance, but the STR and DEX take precedence. You don't need much mana. Your primary spell is Rising Colossus. The RC serves as your tank as you hit them with your soul glaive. I would aim for 180 stamina with 45 total SSI for a 1.5s throw rate.
     
  8. popps

    popps Always Present
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    And what would be these "right kind" of armor pieces specific to build a Mystic Thrower if I may ask ?

    Artifacts ? Which ones ?

    Reforged pieces ? With what kind of reforging (runic, name of reforging to be used etc. ....).

    Thanks.
     
    #8 popps, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  9. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Ok, this one is understood.

    This is also understood.

    How ??? With Arcane clothing ?? A Mysticist needs to cast a LOT (Colossus get dispelled...) so I do not think Arcane Clothing might help nothing....
    And Mysticism does need reagents.... http://uo2.stratics.com/skill-guides/skills-and-professions/mysticism "Mysticism uses all the Magery reagents in addition to 3 new reagents: Bone, Daemon’s Bone, Fertile Dirt, and Dragon’s Blood."

    Now, let's se the math......
    UOGuide (see my previous post) says a single stat can MAX reach 125 (not 150...). and, Combined with stat from items MAX reach 150. So Stamina can be MAX 125 real base + 25 from items =150 stamina. STOP. And this includes the 1 from Corgul's sash since it ALSO is from items (so must respect the 150 combined CAP).

    How do you get the Mystic Thrower to 211 if from potions it is only a 30 stamina buff ??? In my math 150 + 30 = 180 stamina MAX possible !!! The numbers here do not add up with the limitation rules !!!

    Also, I still have not understood how to get up to 150 Strength and 150 Intelligence since they are not even imbuable or reforgeable into the pieces.... Is it possible to have a detailed explaination please ??

    Ok, at least I have a number to deal with, 70 or 90 intellligence.... Now, how is one supposed to reach 70 or 90 intelligence considered that one must ALSO have very very high stamina and high strength for survival (hit points) AND increase of throwing range ??

    Thank you.
     
  10. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Thank you.

    May I ask for a detailed explaination of such Template such as, what real stats points (DEX, STR, INT) it should have, what stats points from items (and on which items if artifacts...), and what stats points from potions or other types of buffs.....

    Also, advice on what skills to have (all real ? part real and part on items/artifacts ? Details, thanks....).

    Details on what artifacts to use and what armor to reforge/imbue.

    And same for the weapon, I understand the advisable one should be the soul glaive though, you do not agree with high stamina to push its speed to 1.25 and would stay at 1.5 ..... Is that so ?

    Thanks for the help as this template looks to me quite unbuildable but I would try to......

    And I would prefer the less expensive Mystic Thrower rather then the more expensive Mystic Archer....., not only for the potions but also for the freedom of doing away with arrows and bolts......

    Thanks again !
     
  11. General Lee

    General Lee Adventurer

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    My understanding is the 150 is max in dexterity, strength and intelligence not stamina, hit points and mana. Then when you get to 150 dex the stamina increase stacks on that. I think this is what your asking but just ignore me if I misinterpreted your question.
     
  12. General Lee

    General Lee Adventurer

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  13. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Don't mess primary (str, int, dex) and secondary stats (hp, mana, stam).

    Example:
    A character has 110 STR, 105 DEX, 45 INT (260 total).
    With Mace&Shield (10 STR/5 DEX), Veil (5 DEX) , Crimson (5 DEX, 10 HPI), LT (5 INT) the character has 120 STR, 120 DEX, 50 INT.
    With potions the character has 150 STR, 150 DEX, 50 INT.
    With 5 armor pieces (total 40 SI/40 MI/5 HPI) and Slither (10 HPI) the character has:
    HP = 150/2 + 25 + 50 = 150
    Stam = 150 + 40 = 190
    Mana = 50 + 40 = 90

    For a Mystic thrower (in general) I suggest to have 60 SSI to get 1.5s with 150+ stamina: 30 SSI on a weapon, 15 SSI on jewels, 15 SSI from DF.
     
  14. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    If you want a really good suit to solo high-end monsters you will go with reagents in your backpack and without LRC. To make things easier you may go with 100 LRC. In this case you sacrifice some 'fighting' stats to get LRC.
     
  15. CorwinXX

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    You can get 221 SI: 150 DEX + 6*10 SI + 2*5 SI + 1 SI.
     
  16. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I'm on my phone and don't have a spreadsheet handy but to address your question on 1.25s throws vs 1.5s throws. It is all a series of trade offs. Sure I'd love to throw 1.25s, but it means stacking an additional 10 SSI on the suit and another 30 stamina. For me personally, you go less than the min necessary for the casting properties (most importantly, mana) if you go so heavy on stamina increase. You'll take valuable mods on your ring and brace and need both to have 10 SSI. That also gets mighty expensive. I'd say you need at least 60 mana for this and maybe more. So I'd rather throw at 1.5s and have enough flex in my suit to keep summoning RC and then to AI with my soul glaive. It is my opinion that if you somehow reach the 1.25s throw rate on this template your mysticism will be crippled due to a lack of mana. I'm sure someone will have a creative suit, but I getting 180 stamina with 45 SSI sufficiently challenging while fitting HCI, DCI, HPI, LMC, and mana alone.

    I think a 1.25s thrower is more suited to a char specifically suited and built as a dexxer with maybe Chiv as your only casting property since you don't need a huge mana pool for Chiv spells and they support a dexxer nicely.
     
  17. popps

    popps Always Present
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    That's a difficult call for a Mystic Thrower because quite a load of reagents would be needed to do without LRC 100%. But anyway, should one decide to go this way, and use reagents instead of LRC 100%, what modifiers would you imbue in place of LRC 100% ?

    Also, should one instead decide to imbue LRC 100%, what other modifiers do you think are a MUST for a Mystic Thrower that a player should absolutely imbue on the suit and armor ? Consider, that already it is necessary to have the Stamina Increase on 5 pieces (because the head piece would be taken by Mace & Shield...)....

    In your example, you suggest :

    A character has 110 STR, 105 DEX, 45 INT (260 total).
    With Mace&Shield (10 STR/5 DEX), Veil (5 DEX) , Crimson (5 DEX, 10 HPI), LT (5 INT) the character has 120 STR, 120 DEX, 50 INT.
    With potions the character has 150 STR, 150 DEX, 50 INT.
    With 5 armor pieces (total 40 SI/40 MI/5 HPI) and Slither (10 HPI) the character has:
    HP = 150/2 + 25 + 50 = 150
    Stam = 150 + 40 = 190
    Mana = 50 + 40 = 90

    Considering that to swing a Soul Glaive at 1.25 the Stamina should be 211, where does one get the missing 21 points ?

    Also, what room there is with such a suit for fighting properties like SSI (it is necessary to reach 60% SSI to be able to swing at 1.25 a Soul Glaive, even with 211 Stamina....), Hit Chance Increase, Hit Lower Defense, Lower Mana Cost, Hit Mana Leech, Hit Stamina Leech, Hit Life Leech, etc. etc. etc. especially if one wants th suit to be 100% LRC ?

    Thank you very much for the help.
     
  18. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I think you convinced me that 1.25 speed with a Soul Glaive is better for a thrower, period (not also Mystic) but with a Mystic Thrower it is better to reach a compromise and give a bit more power to Mysticism even if that means throwing a soul glaive at 1.5 speed. One at least can compensate the damage with Mysticism spells and hold back the target (and also cash in additional damage) thanking to the summoning of a Colossus...
    I'd rather have to throw soul glaives at a slower 1.5 but be able to rely on Mysticism spells as I need them, rather then be able to throw a soul glaive at 1.25 but then not be able to count on Mysticism spells or Colossus summoning when I need them.....

    Ok, now what I need is the details as in what artifacts I need to gather and what properties I need to reforge/imbue on the remaining pieces as well as to what real stats do I need to balance out on my mystic Thrower and what type of weapons (soul glaives or else .... ?) and properties on them should i go with.

    This template is being thought to be able to solo Peerless and the various bosses like Slasher, Medusa etc.

    Would it also be able to solo Exodus ?

    Faster casting 2 would be a must, right ? For those cases when the Colossus is dispelled and thus needs be re-cast in emergency to avoid being toasted by the Boss.....

    Details would be greatly welcome and appreciated.

    Thanks !
     
    #18 popps, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  19. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    1.25s is much better than 1.5s but when you play solo you usually need reserve (to compensate curses and stamina loss when you are hit)
    Probably with RC you can avoid being attacked but often monsters cast spells on all hostiles and/or have some AOE abilities.
    It is difficult to have high STR and DEX without potions. It is annoying to always keep potion bonus. Usually you use potions only against bosses or some tough monsters.
    A thrower does halve damage on the last quoter of his range. So his effective range is something like 6-7.
    To get 210 stamina you must sacrifice 15 stats and 30 hld from M&Sh glasses.

    Summarizing all above notes usually it doesn't worth to have 211 stamina. Especially if you are going to sacrifice something to get 100 LRC.
     
  20. popps

    popps Always Present
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    So, any good advice on what artifacts should I use to build this particular template and what properties I would need to reforge/imbue/refine on the remaining pieces and up to what amount for each piece ?

    Also, any good suggestion on what skills and whether all real or part real and part on items and also about stats to have for a better and more usable template against Bosses ?

    Finally, what about the weapons ? I assume that to have the character viable they would need to be all spell channelling (to avoid equip and unequip for each spell that is cast...).

    In the end, do you think this hybrid template (Warrior + Mage) is worth the trouble or in the end one would be better off at fighting end game Bosses either with a 100% only Thrower (thus focusing all on warrior's properties) or 100% only Mysticist (thus focusing all on spellcaster's properties) ?

    Thanks !!
     
    #20 popps, May 20, 2014
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  21. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Slither, LT sash, Garb, Crimson, Res Veil, NS claws, M&S.
    5x Stone Armor pieces: 25 HCI, 40 LMC, 40 MI, 40 SI, 5 HPI, 80 LRC, 75/75/73/73/75 (total)
    ring: 5 SSI, 25 DI, 15 DCI, 15 Skill, 20 LRC
    brac: 10 SSI, 25 DI, 15 Skill, 15 Skill
    Soul Glave: 30 DI, SuperSlayer, 50 HML, 30 SSI
    130 STR, 120 DEX, 40 INT
    120 Throwing
    110 Tactics
    100 Anatomy
    120 Chivalry
    120 Mystic
    120 Focus
    80 Bushido


    You needn't SC - use Enchant.
    You can also replace skills and DCI on jewels with FC/FCR.
     
  22. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Those two jewels would have to go for something like 1B gold each, right?
     
  23. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Thanks, appreciated the info.

    Res veil is the Unforgiven Veil, right ?

    What is the NS claws artifact and does it carry SSI on it because the rest of the suit as you advice it gets only up to 45% SSI (short of 15% for max SSI...) ?

    Would SSI and stamina be enough to swing the Soul Glaive at 1.25 or are you advicing for a compromise to swing at 1.5 tops ?

    Also, since the skills you suggest total 770 points, besides the fact that I do not understand how you say that one can replace skills with FC/FCR (if they are needed for the template to be really effective how can they be replaced ?), 720 + 45 = 765 not 770 ....... something is perhaps missing here ?

    How effective then can a spellcaster be without FC/FCR (assuming that the extra skill points are indeed needed on the jewellery....) ?

    Lastly, did you actually "make" such a template or is this theory ?

    It looks like an expensive template to make and a whole lot of work, perhaps, before jumping into this project, it would be usefull to hear from others who already have experienced whether it is worth the trouble and the costs?

    This, since a "similar" template, the Mystic Archer, can be also made. Sure, also an expensive build (wonder how much more expensive in the end then a Mystic Thrower....), but from what I hear from others, as of now the most effective build there is in the game ...... is that so, really ?
     
    #23 popps, May 21, 2014
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  24. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Unforgiven Veil

    NS claws = boots with night sight

    DF gives 15 SSI, 20 DI, 15 HCI

    http://www.knuckleheads.dk/ssicalc.php

    you need to drop something is this case (bushido or anatomy)

    it depends on the caster's type: dps casters need FC/FCR while summon and dot casters don't (dps casters also need SDI)

    theory

    5 armor pieces plus 6 soul glaves must not be more expensive than The Slither

    a good bow is 5-10 times more expensive than a good soul glave
     
  25. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Is it the Unicorn Mane Woven Sandals http://www.uoguide.com/Unicorn_Mane_Woven_Sandals ?

    Yes, but Divine Fury also drops Defense Chance Increase by a -10%

    Since the DCI CAP is 45% , this means that the suit should be at 55% DCI to take into account the DF -10% DCI drop.

    Now, Slasher +10% DCI, Conjurer's Garb +5% DCI, from ring +15% DCI = Total +30% DCI

    Minus the DF -10% DCI drop, this suit comes with +20% DCI only.

    Is that enough ?

    Which is less usefull for this template, so to drop it with less problems, bushido or anatomy ?

    What do "dps" and "dot" mean ?

    So, basically such a template for the spellcasting part would only be used to summon the Colossus, not much for all of the other Mysticism spells ?

    Well, this does not sound good..... if noone has made a Mystic Thrower then chances are that this template is not worth the trouble ? Usually, if a build is really good, no matter how much it cost to make it, there WILL be players who will make it.....

    If hardly anyone has ever made a Mystic Thrower perhaps this template has flaws ? Anyone can comment please with their opinions ?

    But is it also 5-10 times better (more damage per second) than a good soul glaive ?

    The bottom line issue is, for PvM is it better a Mystic Thrower OR a Mystic Archer ?

    Or just a Thrower, period OR an Archer, period ??
     
  26. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    If you're never getting hit by whatever you're throwing at, then you don't need DCI...

    Depending on how you want to play the template makes the difference between whether Anat or Bush makes more sense. You could conceivably build a pretty nice template around bushido using LS for every hit and skip the 25 HCI on the suit. I haven't run the numbers, but I'm sure this is at least viable.

    Have you considered that this template is SO expensive as to be prohibitive, and that is why so few make it? For instance, there are currently, in the entirety of UO, no rings for sale that would make sense to wear for this template. None. There IS a bracelet that fits, but it is 70M and has -100 luck on it, plus still needs to be imbued . Also, this template has a lot more complexity, so to speak, in how you need to play it than just a simple sampire does. Keeping the monster at just the right range, etc. For some, the added complexity of play might not be worth it.

    When you're talking about the highest of high end things, you're never paying for "overall value", you're paying the premium for "marginal value". An item imbued with 5 properties at 90% is nearly worthless - an item with 5 properties at 100%, while only being, objectively, 11% better has value. In this case, with a high end bow, vs a high end soul glaive you're getting 20% more imbue weight (2h vs 1h) AND a "free" property from the enhance that means either 1 of your 5 will be overcapped (in the case of a reforge, I guess that's over-overcapped), or you'll get 6 properties.

    As for what is better... it's all math anyway, so just crunch the numbers. I suspect though, that in general Archer > Thrower, because the best possible bow > best possible throwing weapon, and everything else is the same... Then again, an archer can run out of arrows, but a thrower's arm never gets tired, so there's that.
     
  27. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    You must throw mystically.
     
    Merlin and Obsidian like this.
  28. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, some might debate that casting an arrow or a bolt, "mystically", would kill faster.....

    Question is, who is right ?
     
  29. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    Armor should be reinforced for ~25 DCI CAP (I have posted final resistances). DCI is not so important since you have a RC.

    Useful Mysticism spells:
    http://stratics.com/community/threads/warriors-guide-part-3-skills-and-virtues.303969/
    (3.12. Mysticism)

    It depends on what are you fighting but I would tried firstly to drop Anatomy.

    dps = damage per second (in this case it mean a char that does damage using direct damage spells)
    dot = damage over time (like poison, etc... but there is no good dot spells in UO)

    I had a mystic thrower but my suit was very cheap (may be 5m including artifacts). It looks like a good template. I haven't free character slots to try it again.

    Archery vs Throwing:
    http://stratics.com/community/threads/warriors-guide-part-5-pure-warrior-templates.308724/
    (5.2.2. Ranged)