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"Natural" vs. "Neon" Colours

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    There is a lot of bias among certain circles against bright colours in UO and other MMO's which are set in pseudo ancient or medieval contexts. Certain people have the mistaken impression that colours in ancient and medieval times were more muted. They call it "natural" colours. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    As hard as it is to believe, our ancestors didn't live in a world full of washed out colours, much less a grainy black and white one. Most of the famous ancient buildings we know were at one time painted with brilliant colours, from the medieval cathedrals, to the most famous buildings built by the Greeks, to the ruins of Mayan temples in the jungles of Central America, and the same would have been true for their clothing.

    And believe it or not, in many cultures it was the men, not the women, who were dressed in the most outlandish outfits with the brightest colours. All kinds of bright, and even what we would call "neon" colours were used: deep purples, peacock blues, canary yellows, bright reds, and the list is endless. And very much like it is in UO the brightest colours were reserved for the use of the wealthiest, and the most "important" people - or at least those who thought they were important. The higher your rank, the brighter and more flamboyant your colours.

    Even the great painted works of masters like Leonardo Davinci were once much brighter than they are now, and a lot of famous statues that we see as plain marble or other forms of stone, were once painted in vivid colours. Our contemporary idea that somehow colours were much more muted in the ancient world is just plain wrong. If anything colours in the ancient and medieval worlds tended to be much brighter than we are used to seeing today, and bold, bright colours were symbols of status.
     
  2. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    It isn't a matter of staying true to history; it's a matter of staying true to the artistic style the game originally had, which was generally subdued colors until the first "neon" hues showed up. The argument is the colors look out of place because the game was originally designed around a color set that didn't allow for such flashy hues, and when the brighter ones were shoehorned in later they seemed terribly out of place.
     
  3. canary

    canary Guest

    Right, because SO MUCH of the actual UO art itself post T2A looks like it fits in with the original art. :thumbdown:

    Your post fails.
     
  4. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Dye tub colors have always had glaringly bright colors. Original dye tub colors were much more chromatic than anything that spawned on NPCs.

    There weren't any multi-color hues, but that doesn't mean they weren't awfully bright.
     
  5. I don't think that architecture and clothing being brightly coloured is unusual but colouring pets is just wrong.

    *Will you travel with me noble creature?*
    *If you come with me it will be mutually beneficial to one another.*
    *Now get in the dye tub!*
     
  6. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ya, the op wasn't directed at the entire pet dyes issue as much as it was against the general bias against bright colours in the game among certain people, many of whom falsely assume that muted colours are a better fit for the medieval context. If anything the bias against bright colours is a modern phenomenon.
     
  7. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The way I remember readin dye tubs vs NPC colors explained was this...

    Dye tubs used a greyscale to determine hues in which the contrast was much lower than the one used for NPC colors. So basically (non-special) dye tub colors start at a mid-grey and go to white while the NPC colors start closer to black and go to white making the same hue setting look different between them.
     
  8. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    Actually, your reply fails, for it lacks substantial arguement.

    I see declaration of original artwork, that's about it. What too many players, includung yourself fail to realize,......the only thing that stays the same is change.

    Living in the past is only cool for so long.

    I agree the neon stands out like a sore thumb and needs to be toned down a smidge. What gets me is the outright statement that the original poster has failed, and I fail to see that.

    If anything, the original post shows 100% more thought, and concern than a thumbdown, and a remark.

    later
     
  9. canary

    canary Guest

    double post
     
  10. canary

    canary Guest

    Yeah, because the OP claimed the hues didn't fit 'original' art, and my counter part was that NOTHING has fit the 'original' look since 1998.

    Yeah. I can see that there is nothing substantial in my counter point. Mm Hm.

    Here is your thumbs down for fail as well, darling. :thumbdown:
     
  11. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Well you get a thumbs down for fail too, since i'm not the OP and you were responding to me. :thumbdown:
     
  12. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
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    I just don't like the neon colors. I don't care about historical accuracy, remaining true to the original artistic vision or any of that.

    Neon colors are ugly and people who run around in them look silly.
     
  13. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    You can make bright colors using a normal dye tub. Only the special tubs & stains produce poor colors.

    The main problem with colors is that the Devs do not, or are not allowed the time to, do good coloring for the game. A pleasant exception to this was Ter-Mer which looks very good.

    Remember the pet dye problem last fall? The dropped in a bucket of paint coloring the pets would of had?

    I shudder at the memory of that near atrocity.

    Consider the quality of past coloring jobs before you bring up colors in game. What you get may be that bucket-of-paint, entirely-one-shade-of color-only mess we nearly got for pets.
     
  14. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    Goodness, who spiked your coffee with bitchy pills this morning, my dear darling honey-baby-sweetie-pie shnookums? :thumbdown:

    For what it's worth, I don't think the problem is with neon colours so much that people overuse them so enthusiastically. Sure, Back In The Day you'd have seen the odd nobleman with a blindingly scarlet cape - the question is whether he'd also have had blindingly scarlet trousers, boots, hat, shield, sword and inexplicable half-length apron.

    But that's the players' fault for having no taste, not the devs' fault for implementing neon dyes. It's like saying that custom housing should be banned because of the dreaded Malas Box. No, houses in medieval times were not perfectly square with flat roofs and made up of fifty different walling styles placed right next to each other (and nor were they called things like "Selling 100mil ICQ 63294739*"), but there were castles and palaces, which a lot of players build. Likewise, people didn't run around dressed like summer fruit, but they did have their odd moment of fruitiness, which a lot of players make use of.

    In conclusion, I like shiny things.


    *This is a random number, don't go PMing them, they don't really have a house for sale.
     
  15. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    *puts down ICQ and walks away* Another broken dream...
     
  16. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    Sorry, Konge. :(
     
  17. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well this is it exactly isn't it? Should they not be in the game because you don't like them? You say people wearing them look silly. The truth is, you think they look silly, and they look silly to you, but that is entirely in the eye of the beholder, there are plenty of people who do like them, and others who actually enjoy looking silly, in part to make people like you squirm...

    Well that is an entirely different issue, and not the subject of my op. Whether the colouring jobs are well done, well how do you judge that in a game that is over twelve years old that has been worked on by dozens of artists where you have the icon for a one handed sword that is twice the size of the icon for the halberd, and there are dozens of similar "atrocities" in the game where icons and graphics are completely out of scale with each other, and the majority of the player base rejected a beautiful client with fairly consistent art that at least looked like it belonged in the same game. I'm afraid all that is entirely, again, a matter of taste, a matter of expectations, and a matter of each individual's comfort zone.

    The only point I was making in the OP was that the argument that some have made that "muted" colours are somehow more "realistic" or historically accurate, is specious.
     
  18. Ancient Sosarian

    Ancient Sosarian Journeyman
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    Hail Sosarians,

    I love my Blaze Clothing, Blaze Shield, Blaze Magical Tome and the Blaze Cu I ride upon!

    Long Live Blaze, a Favorite Craze!!

    Woo Hoo & Wheeeeeee.

    An SoS
     
  19. Damien Softstep

    Damien Softstep Visitor

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    I would just like to say...:bdh:...that is all...
     
  20. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I like neon colors. Though it would be nice they all were included but rare at least. We have so little rares these days and the rare collectors are dwindling.
    I remmeber when black was rare and it was seen as a status symbol. Then everyone had black and these days nobody cares.
     
  21. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Well, neon colors certainly were not available in the middle ages.
    Anyone should dress as he likes. However, if UO begins to look like Disney, I'm outtie. Luna is horrible enough.
     
  22. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    The only problem with that assement Uo is not middle ages. It's a different world with robots, spaceships,etc They just haven't introduced it yet.

    Matter of fact I feel like loading up some of the old Ultimas and get some memories back.
     
  23. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    And I hope they NEVER put them in either. I think we'll stick with the "later canon" of 4 - 7. The shoehorining in of the Borgthorn crew was bad enough.
     
  24. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    No more NEON in UO! It's bad enough already. Don't need or want any more.
     
  25. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    rofl... yeah mechanical golems are bad enough already !

    And I mean... a neon cape is ok... but a neon plate ? a neon sword ?

    Thats where I draw the line... common... it does look ugly.
     
  26. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Hmmm... you are probably right. Still, it all is a matter of taste. Changing the original tasteful artwork of UO into a world of Disney colors would insult my understanding of taste. But then again, when you look at how some people dress and "decorate" themselves in RL, it is not too astonishing that neon colors are in high demand in UO.

    I recently saw a petition on the Internet where millions of people were voting against the fresh colors in Diablo 3. Diablo originally has a quite gloomy atmosphere. It reminds me of this topic.
     
  27. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Before you feel the need for additional comments, please read, "Bright Earth: Art and the Invention of Color" by Phillip Ball. It's a fascinating look at the history of color, pigments, and the limitations thereof.

    Historically, we did indeed have vibrant colors. But those were premium pigments that made or broke the fortunes of whole city states - and they faded over time. So, let's not get into a historical debate and keep things true to the Ultima universe.

    Natural pigments are the best of both worlds.
     
  28. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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  29. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Mm well there's certainly no exclusivity or prestige to bright colours in UO, so I don't think comparing them to historical use of dyes (eg: the red fez) holds up. If we're to put it in that context then all but the billionaires should be stripped of the brightest of colours.

    I do feel, however, that Neon does not belong in a magical medieval era or even a more scientific renaissance period. Neon itself was not discovered until 1898 on our timescale.

    But the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, and it does exist in the world of Ultima Online. Even so, let us not forget that Neon is an inert noble gas and as such it should be reserved for the use of inert nobles.
     
  30. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    There is no mention of weapon size bizzareness in the OP. It was all a commentary on color, which is why I replied concerning the color. :)
     
  31. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Well Y'know... we tackle the most obvious...

    I remember thinking... wth... when I came back in, I hadn't played since before AoS.
     
  32. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    My point was that what you are talking about really in your post is the quality of the artwork in UO, not the colours themselves, which was why I mentioned other art issues that are in the game that are just as brutal in my opinion, if not more so. But the quality of the artwork was not the subject of my op.

    :lol:

    Ok, that was a good one, and almost /thread.

    Several have made the point that neon colours weren't available in times which might be considered to be a similar historical context. I'll grant you that, but if you look at the neon colour palette, I think you'll find that there were colours available which were very close to many of them. But nonetheless, it is a valid point, although myself while the colours themselves can be debated, I think the spirit that they represent is entirely valid.

    I would disagree with this. There are certain pigments and certain colours of cloth which are difficult to obtain and are more generally obtained and used by advanced players. Among those are many of the colours which most annoy the grognards among us.
     
  33. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Yea there some crazy people in real life. Diablo 3 I would definetely against it as it's suppose to be avery doom and gloom game. Uo is fine cause it's different. Everyone has differet taste as well. I might hate yellow so much it makes me vomit but that doesn't mean the next guy or girl might feel the same. So opinions are diverse
     
  34. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Here is my post again. Read it this time. It says what I am really talking about. Which is the colors, not the quality of the artwork.

    "You can make bright colors using a normal dye tub. Only the special tubs & stains produce poor colors."

    Note it refers to only colors. :)


    "The main problem with colors is that the Devs do not, or are not allowed the time to, do good coloring for the game. A pleasant exception to this was Ter-Mer which looks very good."

    Note it refers to coloring, and mentions that Ter-Mer looked good. The coloring of the tiles there was indeed well done. There was no sudden left turn away from coloring to graphics when Ter-Mer was mentioned. :)

    "Remember the pet dye problem last fall? The dropped in a bucket of paint coloring the pets would of had?"

    Still holding to the topic of color with this paragraph. :)

    "I shudder at the memory of that near atrocity."

    I'll concede that there was no mention of color here. :)


    "Consider the quality of past coloring jobs before you bring up colors in game. What you get may be that bucket-of-paint, entirely-one-shade-of color-only mess we nearly got for pets."

    And the last paragraph also refers to color. :)

    Where did you come up with a reference to the graphics? While I have talked of the artwork in other posts, this one holds to the topic of color from start to end with one mention of a personal reaction to a color situation.

    Pay more attention to what you are reading and don't read things into comments that are not there. That can get people concerned about talking to you. They hear later that you said they said something they didn't say.

    Believe me, it's irritating.
     
  35. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Perhaps the best proof for your argument would be if you went out and gathered materials medieval dyers had available and produced swatches of the UO colours to show us. Including the ice whites of course, because raw fibre doesn't arrive that colour either.

    See, in practice there's a difference between rich vibrant colour and neon, and when you've dyed things naturally, even over fibres which absorb dye with greater vibrancy (mohair for example), there are limits. Availability of dyestuffs would make some colours much rarer and raised their status, some dyes fade more readily, dyers don't always fix colours that well and so on. Not to mention that ice white wouldn't stay that way long in a medieval city street ;) And if you think it would hurt UO to every-so-slightly tone down a few shades by the tiniest amount, while still keeping them vibrant then I think that's a shame. There was no need for UO to look like a toddler's colouring book. It's insulting to the beauty of medieval clothing - and I don't mean the faded kind either.

    UO is however a fantasy game so I figured that neons were just a diversion from medieval and I just avoid using them. I just don't think that full neon was necessary - I play other games that have dyes and none look like UO, yet nobody complains they're "dull". They manage bright and vibrant - so why can't UO? Why can't the artists working on UO create colours and designs that fit the world that they created? Seems very strange IMHO.

    What I'd have done would be add in different garment shapes, styles and surface decoration along with rich sumptuous colours instead. Still bright colours, but tweaked a smidge to be less blinding but still bright. There really isn't a need to include eye popping colours when you introduce the level of "bling" that some medieval garments carried in surface decoration and adornment. I look at jester's suits and the fancy dress and wonder why we couldn't have more clothing with detail like that. I dunno, something worthy of the word "artist"?

    Wenchy
     
  36. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    There is a method to make white leather described in Jean Auel's book The Mammoth Hunters. Since she's known for doing a lot of research for her books I'd say it probably works. It concerned storing your urine in a covered container until it becomes, I believe it was ammonia, after a few weeks. It apparently will bleach the leather to a pure white. Might work with cloth as well.

    Sound's nasty but back in those days you found what worked.

    Actually the subject sounds interesting. I might do a little research & see what I find on medieval dyes.

    Stay tuned. :)
     
  37. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Using the keywords 'natural dye' in an internet search I found the following.

    http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

    http://www.essortment.com/all/naturaldyeplan_rxll.htm

    http://www.textilelinks.com/dye/natinfo.html (links)

    <The following are two of the above sights links>

    http://www.42nd-dimension.com/NFPS/nfps_colours.html (includes pic of colors)
    http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/dye/index.html (incudes pics of colors.)

    Explainations of how to do the dying are given in the first link above and there are color sources given.
     
  38. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, I realise you can get white, but what I'm meaning is the "neon" white rather than just white. The urine thing is historical, I can't remember who she was, but I've sat in a lecture from a well known textile historian who discussed it...in way too much detail lol. In spinning/fibrecraft circles you'd be surprised how often we scare newbies with that bit of info ;)

    There would have been a few bleaching options in medieval times from what I understand, but again I think that the result would have stopped at just white rather than neon. If you leave harsh chemicals whether dyes or bleach on fibre too long it's harmful to the fibre. If it were me, I'd stop before I did damage to the fibre and if it was really creamy I'd dye over it with something darker instead. Overly abused fibre can break or be rough to wear, so it wouldn't be very appealing to your customer even if it was blinding white.

    Mind you, if I look at my RL shirts I would say they're more like the plain UO white cloth than ice white too, and those were from modern bleached fibres :D

    Wenchy
     
  39. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    I've been up all night researching medieval clothing specifically because of this thread. I feel like such an RP tragic and it's all your faults. (Especially you, Wenchkin.)

    It's a really interesting topic. I still support neon dyes because they're really pretty if used in moderation; full-neon outfits are hideous, but like I said, that's because people have no taste, not because the colours themselves are inherently ugly. Some of the colours you can get with normal dye tubs are pretty ridiculous too.

    Full-blown neon isn't faithful to the medieval setting, but like a few others have said, neither are golems or cyberpunk dungeons or women being allowed to carry swords. UO is an anachronism stew, mostly because most of the players aren't roleplayers and most of the players don't want to be limited to dung-age technology and social structure. So compared to some of the other things the game offers, I think neon colours are pretty tame. Sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for the sake of fun, and most people are playing this game to have fun, not as a medieval life simulator. And what's more fun than dressing up like a licorice allsort?

    Also, real-life noblemen looked like demented clowns, what the hell.
     
  40. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Nude is not Neon?

    Does anyone fight any other way? How odd....
     
  41. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    Only if you're not a vampire.

    Edit One: Or an elf.
    Edit Two: Are those wolfhounds in your icon? They're awesome.
     
  42. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    The only game I have seen that appears to really take the context of "color" seriously is Lord of The Rings On-line.

    UO has, and will probably remain, muted or hokey (Noticeably contrived; artificial.)

    EQ was always stiff and artifical. This includes EQ 2

    WOW is a cartoon.

    LoTR-O actually looks at mood and ambiance relative to the setting. THe Mines of Moria actually LOOK and FEEL like abandoned halls of developing wealth. Mirkwood is dim and dark with the susserations of evil.

    Of course LOTR-O has challenges to better their platform. NPCs do not atually "looK' at you during battles, they kind of blankly stare into a random point in space.

    The Enhanced Client (EC) is a step in the correct direction but here again it falters. Simply put, the EC is too "fuzzy" and not solid in appearance. That is only one graduate with a degree in Commercial Art and Illustration's opinion of course.

    As for the Neon vice norm debate. Hoons and lewt dewds go for the Neon. RPs go for the period dress. Me, I go for subtle combinations of commonly available ensambles. It is interesting that by doing so my common appearance is now uncommon. How's that?
     
  43. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Yes that is Feanor. He is awesome. But beware, they require an advanced level of husbandry to keep healthy and have a great life. Weighing in at 191 pounds as of Superbowl Sunday he can be a fair vet bill. If a 25 pound takes a $10 worm tablet (for example) multiple that cost by 8 for Feanor. Now do that for just about everything related to him.

    That stated, I simply have never shared my home with a better dog. And as for the over all cost, well, we choose our pets, they don't choose us.
     
  44. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    UO doesn't offer period dress. Apart from, say, the fancy dresses and shirts, which look reasonably medieval, the clothes are too generic and featureless to really be called "period." Real medieval outfits were insanely pimped-out. We have, what? One skirt design, two dress designs, two shirts, one pair of pants which have this hilarious skintight leathery look in the paperdoll, one robe that sticks out at the bottom in a bizarre triangle shape, hooded robes that look nice and cost over nine thousand gp, elven robes that don't even bear mentioning... and that's about it, unless your character is a jester or an insane clown (I don't mean that in the same sense that real noblemen looked like insane clowns.)

    If we had more variety in clothing style and ability to customise outfits, roleplayers at least wouldn't head for the neon.

    Of course, that's coming from a roleplayer who does nothing else in-game. The dev team can't go around re-designing clothes when they have so much else to worry about; that would be ridiculous. And only a tiny fraction of the UO population are RPers nowadays so it would also be a complete waste of time.

    I completely lost my train of thought halfway through this post because it's 5:30am and I have more coffee in my veins than blood. I think what I was trying to say is that maybe if the clothes available were better tailored (no pun intended) to the setting - if the setting's meant to be medieval - people would be more willing to work with what they have. As it is, the current choice of clothing is limited, so they pimp it out with outrageous colours.
     
  45. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    Okay, that's weird, I could have sworn there were two dogs in your icon. It must just be the way he's standing. Or maybe I'm hallucinating.

    He's really beautiful. And don't worry, I'm not going to go out and buy a wolfhound - I live in an apartment! But I've met a few and they've all just been gorgeous dogs, both in appearance and personality. I love them. :) And the wolf-grey ones are the prettiest.
     
  46. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    I agree there should be more clothing choices.

    And I suggest a further step.

    Make clothing functional.

    I have mentioned this many times long ago (2001-ish).

    If a person is running around in underwear with a Greater Poision Katana (that was what I was sardonically poking at initially) and it is a cooler region or begins to snow they should feel the effects in their charters abilities. Maybe they lose half of their highest Attribute until they dress warmly. (Ever tried to think straight while up to your shoulders in a frigid swamp after make a long distance march into a remote ambush area?)

    Conversely, a charater clad in full plate (of which I have a full suit cusrtome made to myself in RL and therefore a valid opinion) who adventures in the hotter climes, swamp or desert, would begin to feel the effects of heat.

    There can be regions of UO that would call for different attire. In dealing with NPCs there could be different responses based on clothing. Back in the opening stages ones reputation would influence NPC pricings. As would which in-game your character belonged to. An NPC mage sold things cheaper to members of the in-game Mage guild.

    Again, it it a matter of game vision and relatively simple mechanics.

    But I would need to be hired as an overall content supervisor for these things to be implimented.
     
  47. Flora Green

    Flora Green Guest

    RTLFC:

    This is an interesting read, but in the end where what YOU want and leave everyone else alone to wear (or deco) as they choose. It's not hard to do.

    This is another one of those endless tram v fel, pvp v pvm, 2d v whatever deals.
     
  48. Llwyd

    Llwyd Guest

    I agree with you. I remember Ice Island, back when it was ruled by PKs, most of them naked... lol
     
  49. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Quite simply, no, no its not.

    Its adding functionality to an unrealistically unfunctional portion of the game that people seriously enjoy. I reference above posts about role-playing and crafting.

    I am not in UO for Roleplaying but that does not stop me from being able to understand that others may be.

    Additionally, "Planters" go on at leangth about the market for their creations. Plant Growth is not a Skill requiring the commitment of 100 points to Grand Master. Nor do I advocate it should be.

    But Tailoring does require 100 points to GM and 120 to get to Legendary. Functional garments, to incluse accurate armor functionaluty, would add a depth to UO that does not exist presently.

    It is so very much NOT a "PvP v PvE" or "Tram v Fel" thing that I am quite surprised it could be thought so in even the remotest of considerations.

    Unless of course I misinterpreted the response, which is always possible.