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Necromancy: Should it be able to be used VIA jewls/items

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Omnicron, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Should you be able to use Vamp Form with items and stay in that state, or should you be required to have the actual skill points to use the spell?

    Im curious as to what UHALL has to say on this. Me and a buddy got into an argument bout this.

    I voted for items jewls.
     
  2. HeathBar

    HeathBar Guest

    Every other is usable with skill increasing items why would necro be any different?
     
  3. athlon

    athlon Guest

    i can jewel up and tame something, take off jewels, ride it.

    i can jewel up and rez someone, take off jewels, they continue to be alive.

    i can talisman up, craft something, take the talisman off, use it.

    i can.....

    You get the picture, and you win the argument :)
     
  4. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    Not Spellweaving. :)
     
  5. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Should get a Midnight Bracer for my Nox Mage, then i can put it and Bloodwood Talisman on, cast Evil Omen on someone, then cast Poison on them and do an unresistable Lethal Poison. Odds are though that they'll just cure it in a second with a Greater Cure Pot, and if they're using a pot chugging script, they'll cure it within a quarter of a second that i poison them (Seen that alot). Seriously though, EO is the most overpowered spell in game, especially considering it casts about as fast as a 2nd level spell, takes 20.0 Necro, and very little Mana.
     
  6. I'm at a loss to understand why this keeps coming up, and why such a big deal is made out of it. The ability to use the items is the ONLY thing that has dexxers on the same level as high end tamers, even before the GD's came out, but especially now that they have, along with Bards and even Mages in a lot of cases. The only thing I can think of is they don't want competition at the high end spawn locations. Really, who is being affected by this other than as direct competition for spawn? What's really the purpose behind creating yet another thread, a poll no less, about a subject that has been debated to death?
     
  7. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I think there's nothing wrong with +skill items. If the designers consider some aspects of +skill items to be an issue, they should address those issues instead of destroying +skill items all together.

    If it is deemed that vamp form is too powerful to allow people to use +skill items to toggle it on, they should put a skill check into the form not work as well when the necro skill level drops. Of course, doing this means that discorded players in vamp form could suffer substantial penalties.

    For Example, the following things could scale based on your necro skill level in realtime.
    The resist penalties
    the life leech percentage
    the poison immunity level

    I'm indifferent about whether the designers should address +skill items with vamp form. I certainly do it. I can see why some people would consider it an exploit.
     
  8. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Weapon special moves require real weapon skill AND real tactics. And, do not a number of the Bushido and Necro "powers"/spells reuire real skill? And does Doom artifact thieving still require real skill of GM or better?

    Smith BODs aren't affected by ASH bonuses, either - just real skill.

    IMO the amount of skill bonus one can use for things that actively use the skill ought to be at most 50% of the real skill amount. In the case of necro, this would mean to have a minimum chance of casting VE one would need to have 66.6 real skill, and to have 120 skill in anything, at least 80 of it would have to be real skill points.

    Do that, and you could remove all the other current "real skill" caps in the game.

    Alternatively, you could just make VE follow the pattern of most other necro spells, and have it require spirit speak equal to the minimum necromancy (and neither having to be real skill amounts).
     
  9. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Skill items were put in game to increase skills. If a few people found unique ways to use them to create uber templates then that is good ole' uo inginuity. BTW, some actually make necro/dexxer templates that take necromancy up to 110 or such so that they can actually use it.

    In the day...

    120 Weapon
    110 Tactics
    90 Anatomy
    90 Healing
    110 Necromancy
    100 Spirit Speak
    60 Chivalry
    40 Meditation

    was not that uncommon.
     
  10. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    To run this analogy a little farther...I can only imagine if they made carpentry require actual skill in all of the secondary skills needed to craft skill items. I have carpentry on my ljack. With the use of items I can craft every carpentry item with her. However, I have to have a +10 magery ring, +30 music set, and the Hammer of Hephasteous to pull it off.
     
  11. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    I don't agree. There are other dexxer templates out there (other than Sampire) that are able to handle soloing DH and other high end stuff. Most of those templates require mass consumables and different types of equipment though.

    I welcome any high end warrior into my places that I play. I don't feel the need to dominate it. If they want to use the Sampire template to compete there then so be it.

    Some people just can't be happy with good ole' uo inginuity and have to complain about things.
     
  12. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    i think it's silly to be able to turn into vampire form then remove the jewels and still remain in the form. it doesn't work for the talisman of the fey's forms, so it shouldn't work for necromancy.
     
  13. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    You should auto-cast out of vamp form if your REAL skill falls below 99. If you want to use the items to do it, then keep them on. Vamp form is balanced when checked against the disadvantages IF and only IF you are using it with the real skill requirements. When you are able to go into vamp form with some low skill or even no skill at all (no skill at all=soulstones and yes some people do this), then vamp form becomes overpowered.

    PS: This is coming from someone with more items than most. I can go into vamp form with 24 skill points with my items. I'm not against this because I don't have the items as some would suggest. I'm against it because it's imbalanced.
     
  14. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Using items to vamp is perfectly fine, it's not like it gives a huge advantage in PvP, the life leech is almost useless, the MR isn't much, we lose 25 fire resist. The only part that makes it worth using at all in PvP is poison immunity, but lethal can still get us...

    And in PvM, it's almost required for dexers to compete with tamers... If you remove the ability to go into vampiric embrace without items, lower the power of pets and monsters...
     
  15. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I agree with Mas. Using skill items to increase skill and utilize vamp form should be ok but, you should be required to maintain the skill points in order to stay in vamp form.

    If you remove items with the necromancy skill points and go below the minimum skill requirement, you should drop out of vamp form.
     
  16. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Everyone already knows my thoughts on this, but what the hell I'll add another post count.

    Items were meant to be used, but they were meant to be worn in order to receive the benefits.


    Yep, that would be my suggestion, requiring 99 in both necro and SS would pretty much solve this problem.
     
  17. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Oh brother, maybe the first dude who figured this out was using good ole ingenuity. But the other 99.9% of the people abusing this are just copy cats.

    My guess is the first dude to figure this out probably isn't even playing any more considering he figured it out about 6 years ago.
     
  18. Sneaky

    Sneaky Guest

    Skill bonus from items shouldn't change.

    What should change is having vamp form's bonus' scale off spirit speak.
     
  19. Desolation87

    Desolation87 Guest

    So say real skill is required.

    Ok lets hump VE onto the big pile of skills/spells that arn't/very rarely used anymore. Go on VE move over there with herding and 'unlock'.
     
  20. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Herding has way more applications than Necro itself, let alone just VE. This is where ingenuity comes in ahead of copy-catting; everyone knows what a sampire is, but few people seem to understand the potential of herding.

    Funny thing is, given the +skill twinkage, isn't it possible there are more Shepherds out there than "real" Necromancers? :stir:
     
  21. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    What would be the point of skill items if they didn't allow the use of the skill on the items?
     
  22. Oriana

    Oriana Babbling Loonie
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    Using jewelry to acheive combat skill levels is fine, but I think that once that jewelry is removed, again for combat skills, the effect should be gone. Don't lump herding/crafting, etc and necro/magery/weapons into the same pot i mean come on. Two entirely different categories there.

    Ori
     
  23. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    This is why I voted yes. The thing you have to realize is that the Uhall is never an acurate judge of the playerbase. You can get a basic idea but there are many schisms between the two. This is an issue I don't hear people in game complain about. Only here.
     
  24. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

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    The only reason I believe that jewels are ok to use for this is because your still giving something up to be able to go vamp form.

    If your using jewels with a necro boost your using up space on those jewels that could have been used for something equally good. So since your making a choice necro boost vs something else your giving up something and it is fine.

    However the reason I don't think it is fine is because once you take off the jewels you can remain in the form without giving up anything.
     
  25. Samaira

    Samaira Lore Master
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    QFT. I have no problem with people decking themselves out with bonus items in order to fit more skills in. But for some reason this particular circumstance has escaped notice for a long time. If I take off my +15 taming ring, I lose access to my bonus stable slots. Same should be for anything that requires a certain skill level.
     
  26. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    What are you all doing in this foolish forum !!! There Are vanguard to be crushed Strangers That need Vanquishing And Daemon Berzerkers Awaiting Defeat!! Get your sampires and tamers and go crush the opposition that plagues our land Save the good folk of sosaria from the scourge of the shadowlords!!

    And I Know the power of which Fink Speaks and there is true Insanity In the herd! I still bow to finks gm sadly i have yet to obtain that rank though i am close now :thumbup1: Herding always puts a big smile on my face. And i can say this with a little time to prepare nobody can stand up to a herder!! :thumbup1:


    +skills needs to bet better you know more crafter sort of +skills be nice a with over cap bouns so the ones who have ledgendary wont complain hehe but um seriously tinker carpenter alchemy tailor fletchers need more +skills i think the smiths being able to make exceptional everything 100% of the time is cool but then would it not be as possible a tailor could be that cool also.. when i first saw the name stichers mittens i immidiatly thought OH SWEET + skill for tailor what a letdown they turned out to be


    ok i am rambleing sorry ummm yes let ppl have thier sampires!!! they are alot of fun and thats what people want in a game if the monsters kill me more then 10 times i give up and that happens alot less as a sampire
    Keep It As Is!!
     
  27. Satanatra

    Satanatra Guest

    Sorry if this has been said - i didnt have time to read through the whole thread... but just wanted to say that:

    The amount of mana that you leech in wraith form depends on your SS. Make the amount of life that you leech in vamp form depend on you SS too.

    This wouldnt nerf vamp form - you would just have to drop the bushido for ss and would still have all the chiv stuff and full weap skills.

    120 weap skill
    120 anat
    120 tactics
    90 chiv
    90 healing
    100 necro (you can wear items to get 100 here - the problem is with taking them off after casting)
    100 ss

    *yes i know that it 740 points - but im assuming 720 cap plus a few skill points from hunters etc.

    you dont need healing as you leech enough and can use chiv to cure/remove curse..



    Tbh - anyone worried about this has probably never tried wraith form with curse weap. Unlimited mana AND unlimited healing.
     
  28. Llams Anit

    Llams Anit Guest

    Yes you do lose access to your bonus stable slots but when you wore your +15 ring to be able to stable that extra pet the pet didn't come out of the stable once you took off the ring.
     
  29. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    Hey at least we are winning the poll by a pwnzerizing majority ;)

    DEXXERS UNITE!

    NERF TAMERS!

    NERF POLLS!

    NERF UHALL!

    Lets make a poll about if its fair or not to have tamers have 2 skills that turn into 9 skills (your pets) and if they should have to have dex for vet healing times. Personally I'm all for leaving things they way they are ...tamers included since I happen to like my 2 different taming templates myself.

    Better yet, lets make a poll on whether or not Uhallers should have any say in what is game balance and what is exactly their buisiness. I think they should shut their cake holes (or pie holes...whichever you prefer), and go play the bloody game instead of playing armchair game developer.

    /end thread
     
  30. Scratch

    Scratch Guest

    sure it should but if you cast vamp and remove the jewels you used just for vamp form it should go away
     
  31. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    I don't see anything overpowering or unbalanced in the way people take vamp form with items right now, either in PVP or PVM. I feel that to remove it would be a mistake in respect to the PVMers, and it would be a slap in the face to PVPers who use it.

    I have a vamp sammy dexer who kills monsters and a vamp archer who kills people on occasion. Neither one of them stands out as being some kind of god when compared with other characters and templates.

    On the PVP archer, the vamp part of the template causes complications and it's high maintenance, it's by no means a free walk in the park. My archer pays out an assload of insurance every time he dies because he carries all of that vamp emb. gear with him. He has to work Lich Lords or other karma-building monsters regularly because the template happens to carry Chivalry and the vamp emb. spell screws his karma every time he casts it. The template is forced to carry GM healing and anatomy in order to cure lethal poison because vamp form will not allow him to drink a greater cure pot under any circumstances, yet, the vamp form does not protect him from lethal. Also, the template can never include Ninjitsu for the purpose of assuming animal form for a quick get-away. He would have to go through a procedure to remove all necro forms before assuming a ninjitsu animal form, and that procedure requires either one or two necro spells to be cast and is too slow and awkward to be effective while on the run (which is when you need that animal form to be there for you on a Ninja). The template can also never be turned into a true Archer-mage because more than occasional use of the spells that include Garlic as a reagent would cause too much damage to be useful. All 4 of the heal and cure spells are in this category.

    For all of this trouble and template limitation and 35 skill points, my archer gets the identical effect of having eaten an orange petal, a good life leech in PVM, a smallish life leech effect in PVP (it's kinda insignificant, but not nonexistant), and some additional stamina and mana regen. Oh, and a cool-looking white complexion. On the surface it doesn't even look worth it, but it's the choice I've made for now, and it's working for me.

    People who whine about vamp dexers should knock it off. It's not imbalancing anything in PVP, it's just a template choice as it stands now, and it's important to some key PVM templates. If they were to take that away it would just serve to disappoint people and not help or balance anything.
     
  32. FarukAlazar

    FarukAlazar Guest

    Actually, mine would be a cookie hole.:mf_prop: But yeah, leave it the way it is. I say this without even having a sampire.
     
  33. Tek

    Tek Seasoned Veteran
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    hmmm your right, lets add spellweaving items as well :cursing:

    Nope, Not 'real' skill
     
  34. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    This is a great idea. Every day, I sit around asking myself, "How can they screw this game up so badly I don't even want to bother logging in again?" Your proposal would be the PERFECT answer to that question.

    I know some people need to stroke their epeens, but did you ever stop think that Sampires wouldn't exist if people didn't want to play their characters that way. I mean, why do you feel the need to dictate how people play the game? If it is fun for them, then why do you feel the need to end that fun? How many times can you complain about how someone else choses to play the game and get it fixed so they can't play that way any longer before people just go play something else?

    If you want everything to require a group then go play WoW. Nuf said!
     
  35. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Even here it seems to be the same 5 people over and over again.
     
  36. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Do you even play a dexxer? Do you realise why almost every dexxer and many archers have bushido? Bushido is probably the most powerful warrior skill in this game next to chivalry. Dropping it is not a good idea.
     
  37. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    In times past, tamers had to have dex to lower their bandage times. It was simply unrealistic because most tamers need large mana pools for times they can't heal with bandaids.

    100% in agreement...especially when most of the posts regarding game balance are nothing less than nerf every template than mine, and catch people using every illegal program but the one I use.
     
  38. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Yes it's the same 5 people over and over again - insisting that Sampires ought to be a valid playstyle.

    Most of the players who don't read stratics I've talked to, consider it close to being an exploit, and most do think something should be done to nerf it.

    I, on the other hand, think that it should be reduced in power by making it require Spirit speak to cast, more than nerfing the equipment.

    After all, while I don't play a sampire (and never will), I've already been the victim of a "real skill only" nerf (the Tactics addition for special moves).
     
  39. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Then explain the poll...its 50 to 18 at the moment and the people that think its an exploit are not winning.

    Its UO, if they don't understand how to do something, or aren't doing it themselves they want it nerfed. Its almost as if people in this game can't figure out that when you start to swing the nerf bat at any template you just manage to lose more than you gain.

    You would rather require a TIGHT template to have to fit in 100 more skill points. Its not that overpowered to begin with. Its not like everyone can play a Sampire well. I think the reason most people whine about it is because they can't get the hang of playing it. I know more than enough players that have fun with sampires and I have yet to see anyone in game complain about it.

    That was more of a balance than a nerf...there was no reason for players without tactics to pull off weapon specials. If you want to do specials without tactics then train wrestling.
     
  40. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Thank you for proving me right, galefan...

    in your arguments against my position you disproved the basis of your own.

    Just because something is "fun" doesn't make it right. And, if you think it's "not that overpowered", you must be using it in PvP - it's overpowered to the extreme for PvM. No one should be soloing peerless - especially the people who go in and effectively lock up a peerless for almost an hour, soloing one. There's a lot less peerless being done now, than before, for that one simple reason - solo Sampires go in, take 30 to 90 minutes to complete (I didn't say they were GOOD at being a sampire), and during that time others can't do it. I used to do Melisande & Dreadhorn a lot with friends - the others stopped because the peerless were always busy - and those that waited out the busy time at the exit point to tell the others to drop the keys, ALWAYS ended up reporting that it was a single person that left, after an hour of waiting.

    And the tactics change was a severe nerf, in comparison to any change that would affect the sampire. There was no justification FOR the nerf of the special moves given. The "no reason" you cite was not even a consideration until after it was done - and resulted in many people in PvM that lost their characters' template focus that they changed to sampires from their old template losing viability.

    While I agree that something was needed to be done about the special moves (and adding tactics was a logical explanation for the change), it was done in the REAL SKILL ONLY way that you are so vehemently against for necro. Am I the only one seeing the hypocrasy? Either let equipment count for the Tactics (not the weapon skill) part of the special moves, or do something to balance VE.
     
  41. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter Gilfane

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    Well, tbh, I think the poll options are poorly made out (proper english?). They don´t even touch the real subject.

    It´s either "Yes - We should be able to cast VE with +skill items on" or "No - We must have the real skill to be able to cast VE".

    The real issue doesn´t seem to be whether or not someone can cast VE with skill items on but the fact that the effect stays after the items has been removed.

    I voted Yes in this poll cuz I was only given these options.
     

  42. Nope make a char with 50 stealing but on shadow dancers burg bandana 15 ring 15 brac and eat a 110 stealing scroll for a insta 110 stealing skill then go to town stealing. Honestly i have 60 real skill on my thief the rest is from the items above and i ate a 120 scroll. I can steal everything just fine. So no you dont need real skill.

    As for Necro.. if the skill bonus items are there then let them use it. Making it so skill bonus usless makes alot of items in the game usless. If you casnt use necro bonus items for necro what would the point be of even having them?

    and no i dont play a Sampire however i do play a semi gimp PvM templet that uses necro and req me to use bracers to hit GM necro:

    100 Necro,120 Spirit Speak, 100 spellweaving,100 Inscribe,120 Mage,120 Eval, 100 Med

    with out the bracers and other stat peices i wouldnt be able to pull it off as thats like 760 skill points.

    ~Blade
     
  43. Jewelry is fine...however I do think that if you take off the jewelry while in a form and lose enough skill to make that form completely impossible that you should lose the form.
     
  44. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    You are so right! I don't herd myself, but I've had plenty of conversations with some that do, and I understand at least part of the potential. You have to love the truly ingenious people that are still figuring out new ways to do different things, after ten or more years... :)
     
  45. Personally i have never seen a solo player take up to 90 mins to do a peerless. I have seen alot do it in almost the same time it takes 3 to 4 people to do it. Mostly because they dont have the down time of rezzing or xhealing.

    Youtube has a ton of Videos of Sampires beating Shims and other Peerless bosses in under 9mins. On Lake Austin we can do Peerless bosses whenever we want as they are normally not packed. The only ones you might have to wait for is Lady Mel due to the fact the guild i am in likes to chain 2-15 at a time. Man i love KOL!

    Once again i dont play a Sampire but why is it that ever feels the need to complain about anothers templet in PvM? Honestly its not going to matter if EA nerfs it or not. if they do everyone will find something else to say is over powered and complain about.


    ~Blade
     
  46. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    I'm not using it at all. Although you don't want to admit it, a lot of templates can solo the peerless. Most tamers can solo almost any of the peerless (not paroxymous) and a good bard can solo shimmering effusion.

    Who gets to judge what is right? You. I have yet to see the developers come right out and say that peerless SHOULD require a group. When developers come out and say that peerless should require at least 2 people then I will gladly join the bandwagon of making it so only two or more people can do a peerless. The drawback to soloing peerless is time. It takes a Sampire anywhere from 20-30 minutes to do a peerless. Three tamers can do the same peerless in about 5 minutes. If you assume the three are trying to help each other instead of being out to get all they can for themselves, then it is safe to assume that everyone has 3x the chances at drop in 30 minutes if they don't solo the peerless.

    Funny...I never see them tied up. I've yet to see the developers say that no one should be able to solo a peerless. If it is your intention that no one should be able to solo a peerless then ask the developers to make it so that peerless zones can only be entered in groups. Nerfing a template is not the right way to fix the problem. Most Sampires can do a peerless in 30 minutes. Do you honestly think they are "tieing up the peerless"? That would mean that they are chaining them and its just not possible for one character to chain the peerless (you have to run through the dungeon just to drop the keys) if you are on top of dropping keys. If its taking them 30 minutes then I'm sure the other person can find something to do for 30 minutes. Most of the time, if its taking them 90 minutes its because they died a few times and have used sacrifice resses (make it so that when the last person that is in the peerless dies the peerless boots you and you solve this problem).

    That is a design flaw with the peerless not the Sampire template, and show me one Sampire that can solo Lady Mel. Its tamer templates that solo Lady Mel, and even then its not easy. I simply don't believe that they are always tied up. If that was the case, then I wouldn't be doing about 40-50 peerless a week without ever having to wait once for the keys to drop.

    Tactics has been a needed part of a warrior template for the last 10 years. If you are whining about them nerfing you by requiring tactics then why do you demand they do the same to Sampires? Aren't you sick of poorly thought out changes in demand to player feed back by now? I mean, seriously, they changed mining, ljacking, tactics, and a lot of other things in demand to player feedback I reckon, and I don't think any of those changes actually helped the game.

    Hmm...one fits easily into every warrior template and the other doesn't fit easily into any melee template. If you can't see the difference that is your issue. Don't call it hypocrasy because it simply isn't. The real problem is that necromancy itself has one maybe two abilities worth getting for a warrior while making mages almost overpowered. If you want to make necromancy require real skill then give warriors a real reason to have necromancy instead of just one form and curse weapon.
     
  47. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

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    I play a sampire, I can knock out a dread solo in 10 minutes. I've never seen one take more than 20. And to your "overpowered to the extreme", I give you the disco tamer with a greater dragon, or even a pure mage tamer with a greater dragon. Those 2 templates can solo almost every peerless. They're the only ones that can solo Lady Mel, I've never seen a sampire/wammy solo her... So nerf tamers too if VE is nerfed?
     
  48. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Sure...I want yet another reason to give up on this game. :)
     
  49. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    If you take off you items you should lose the extra benefit to the skill level of where you are trained to. If a low skilled tamer removes jewels or goes into faction stat loss they will lose their ability to control their high end pets and they can go wild.
     
  50. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    This poll like most polls is completely worthless.

    The options are not clearly defined and more importantly most the people voting yes are just afraid to lose their power. Just like the WoD archers who used to come argue that nothing was wrong with their template.

    Want to play a sampire using VE? Then you should be required to have and maintain 99 Necro and SS.