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[News] Editorial of Griefing on Atlantic

Discussion in 'UO Atlantic' started by imported_Ishtar, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. <center>[​IMG]</center>

    Now all of us at one point or another have dealt with some form of griefing in one of its many ugly forms. With the large population, especially on a shard such as Atlantic, keeping it controlled is difficult. As time has gone on in game the scarcity of GM's had made this task even more difficult. How often does one get the typical automated response? This can be extremely frustrating when you add the long wait times into the equation. In the realm of Ultima Online I have found that griefing falls primarily into these categories:

    - What we know as exploits, bug exploitations and so on that constitutes as an abuse of the actual game mechanics..
    -The intent of the action is meant to cause dissatisfaction of the game play of the intended victim, verbal (racial slurs and so forth) or physical (the luring of monster/releasing of pets with the intent of harming/killing of another player on the Trammel, Malas &amp; Ilshenar facets).
    -Impersonating of a guild/individual (this only applies to the roleplay community in my experience).
    -The inability of the victim to exact some means of retribution beyond utilizing similar unintended game mechanics.*


    Regardless of the type of game play you enjoy in UO, whether you just hunt, run peerless or role play, griefing tends to be the constant black spot in the game. In the roleplay community this can add more stress to a character or guilds interaction. From events being interrupted to more minor infractions, it still creates what one would call "drama" within the community. Griefing, can be viewed as a form of harassment in the physical sense as well as verbal. Though, per game mechanics tossing insults is not considering griefing, as long as it is not racially charged or in a manner that violates the rules of conduct. Per the roleplay community to go out of character and simply curse at people, especially to bait a conflict, would be just that.

    With the mechanics of warring and alliances, these action(s) do not just affect one individual, even if only one person is the intended target, but all the parties involved. These things are here for fun and enjoyment, and just one instance, even if just in a moment, it can be ruined for many. This is a nightmare to deal with for guild masters and those that are the victims of this action. Though many will say yes it is only a game, one must keep in mind that the person behind the player does have real feelings and those are still affected regardless.

    In the role play community, the majority of responsible GM's will handle this in an adult and professional manner. Sometimes even in the non roleplay community a guild master will handle it in the same fashion. However, there are always exceptions to such and it tends to lead to a war of sorts within the either community. In my years of playing I personally have experienced quite a few of these, including guild impersonation, which too this day only one responsible party has atoned for. Though that guild was eventually disbanded, it still did not resolve the situation and resulted in long term animosity, which even now, I still harbor ill feelings about and has created conflict with a guild master I respect and still wish we could have a more amicable relationship.

    Animosity, as the result of conflict stemmed from griefing in the roleplay community as well as those that are not, if left unchecked and without proper action, can lead to long time feuds that can have major impacts on relationships between guilds and players down the road. For example, tit for tat actions, which I can admit I have been guilty of myself, resulted in a long term issues with another guild. Even though after time I realized it served no purpose and it was better to go along my merry way then keep going back and forth, as on my end it appeared resolved after a talking it out, it still has created a rift with both guilds.

    It may appear a simple solution would correct such an issue, but add stubbornness and strong personalities and that can go right out the window. I have seen a sincere apology fix many situations, yet sometimes getting one would be like pulling teeth from a shark's mouth. The role play community has an advantage with mediators available to resolve conflicts and disputes, which is a resource rarely used and tends to be overlooked as a positive option. Now, with that in mind, you would think the option would be used more often, sadly it is not.

    So how does one handle such rude interruptions of their game play? Well there are numerous trains of though in this regard from doing it back to just ignoring it. I recommend ignoring it and contacting the Guild master of the guild causing the issue. Doing it back has very bad results, that I can attest to from my own above admission. One can debate that ignoring such things could be considered the same as taking no action, but adding fuel to the fire so-to-speak, tends to lead to more issues down the line and makes it much harder to settle differences later on.

    In some circumstances the Guild Master of the offending guild, may be the person creating the problem. In that case, the "ignore button" serves a wondrous purpose here. Though, it may not stop the other party from picking objects up and so forth it can filter any taunting behavior and commentary. Unfortunately, that is about all the game mechanics allow to stop this as the GM's of Electronic Arts have come short in this department when they removed a lot of their programs over the past few years.

    To live grief free in Ultima Online would seem a near impossibility, but one has to make the most of their situation. The definition itself can be intangible at times, as what one may consider griefing may not be, for example removing rune stones and re-wording recruit books or throwing them away, by the rules set forth in the game are not considered griefing, but would walk a fine line in the role play community. The same would go for blocking common areas, not deemed griefing but rude, none the less.

    So perhaps, with this perspective in mind, a clear definition should be made as what is griefing in the role play community vs. the non role play community. Though these are only my thoughts, experiences and opinions, hopefully it will shed new light on something that puts a dark cloud on the world of Ultima Online for all.

    -Ishtar-


    *Taken from the Wiki definition of griefing.
     
  2. Foxie

    Foxie Guest

    Whoa! Griefing isn't 'ugly' nor is it a 'black spot' in the game! Confused? Read on. I think we need to first start with what EA considers 'griefing'. You can find that here. As you can see, it does not include the Felucian community/rule set. Simply put, the Felucian rule set is, if someone pisses you off, you kill them - or you can at least try… (and if that doesn’t work, you can always call in the rest of your guild).

    I'm assuming you were posting this as 'news' to help educate players. If so, Fel does need to be included since the two rule sets are very different when it comes to griefing. (the difference being your 'ugly' and my 'kick ash fun')

    I have more than one template that I use to grief the big bad guilds (or anyone else I happen across). I don’t consider my play style ‘ugly’. Nor am I breaking the game rules. But I am trying to piss people off and/or prevent them from getting something they want.

    Many of us in Fel have a kick ash time griefing each other. Stealth archers, scouts, informants/spies, thieves and the most common – the trash talkers (specialized template not needed).

    I will leave you with link to a web site created by one of Napa’s evil thieves, Chad Sexington – he makes the thief (often considered a griefing template, fortunately not by EA) look down right sexy.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Great article. I would say that anyone who needs to be a cyber bully and ruin a game experience for someone else is themselves a low, pitiful person in real life and they warrant our compassion.

    Ignore is the best way to go.
     
  4. Stuffa

    Stuffa Crazed Zealot
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    The fact that Chad Sexington simply has the word "Sex" in his name makes him awesome for a start
     
  5. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    No matter the ruleset... grief is still grief... and it is ugly... and it is a black spot... and it is the dark side of (or lack of) morals and ethics! You may find reasons to justify it, but it is still based on evil intent.

    Some players may enjoy being run-over and stepped on (figuratively speaking), but in the long run, it is not the griefing they enjoy, it is having a reason for revenge and this works for the felucca playstyle.

    However, griefing is still griefing and despite your claim, it does apply to felucca per your own link...
    <blockquote><hr>

    The following information applies primarily (not exclusively) to the lands of Ilshenar, Malas and the Trammel facet

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Again, per your link...

    <blockquote><hr>

    Ultima Online is a social setting, and as such, we expect our players to treat one another with the same respect and dignity they would use in any other social situation. If your sole purpose and intent in any action is to continually upset, aggravate, or otherwise annoy another player, you may be a “grief player.” Using game mechanics to cause grief to others can also be seen as exploitation, and will be treated accordingly by game staff.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think this is pretty clear that it does include felucca and that griefing is not really based on any one particular action you take... but your intent as you take a series of actions.

    I think you have made your point that you think griefing is OK in felucca. It is my hope that you are in a VERY VERY small minority. I know many felucca based players that would disagree with your assumptions but I think they define griefing a little differently than you do.

    In your example of thieves... It is a valid playstyle and the intent of the playstyle is to steal from other players. Is this as the developers intended? and is it griefing? Again, it depends on your intent. If your intent is to approach someone and steal from them, then it is a part of a legitimate playstyle. If your intent is to approach the same person over and over again looting them dry constantly and repeatedly, then that same legitimate template is being used to grief. See the difference? In this example, the long term result will be either a friendly rivalry that players look forward to as they vie to reclaim the coveted trophy that was stolen, or it will be all out war with someone getting hurt (feeling count) and UO probably loosing another player...

    I am really amazed that so many people really do not see one of the main reasons why felucca is so dead on many shards compared to the other facets... it is because the felucca ruleset provides more options for players to grief driving other players away.

    Note I did not say all felucca players... there are many great people in felucca that work together to build the community... sadly, there are many others working just as hard to tear it apart.

    The question is: Which will you, the individual players choose to be? Do we rebuild UO into the great community it once was, or do we trash the place and go home when the party's over?
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Another great post. I'm not going home though. This party is over for now, but I am enjoying myself with WOW, including the PvP aspects of it.
     
  7. I play WoW and UO, I love the RP on UO and the ability to be part of a story on WoW...both are fun and I do love the policies for harrassment/griefing on WoW a bit better. There is just something special about UO, I made some really wonderful friends here.
     
  8. Foxie

    Foxie Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I am really amazed that so many people really do not see one of the main reasons why felucca is so dead on many shards compared to the other facets... it is because the felucca ruleset provides more options for players to grief driving other players away.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    When I first read this I totally disagreed. But after thinking about it you might be right. The culture of Fel is in constant flux. It used to be the big guilds ran the show while the little guild tried to sneak in a spawn here and there. When they got tired of getting their butts kicked, the small guilds would either join the big or leave the shard. So yeah, the griefing tactics of the large guilds drove away the small.

    However, once you pvp there's no going back to Tram. The pvp'ers are still around. The current trend is to join a guild on a shard that you can farm (spawn/quest/whatever) in peace. Then join a guild that you can pvp with (usually on a shard where the pvp is hopping).

    Right now Atlantic is a pvp hot spot. The pvp here is amazing. You guys should be very proud of your Fel community and very glad the big guilds drove the players to your shard. (pvp'ers spend a LOT of gold) [​IMG]


    <blockquote><hr>

    there are many great people in felucca that work together to build the community

    [/ QUOTE ] Fel has an unbelievable community. Go up to any pvp'er and ask them who they know in xyz guild. The guild could be even on another shard and they will still know someone in that guild. The Fel community is well connected and knows each other very well. Fel events will often draw 60 - 100 people together. EA events don't always draw that many people. Shoot, last night there was 30 to 40 people on all fighting in and around Despise. Nothing is ever advertised, it's all spontanious. That's community. Can Tram compete with that?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What er.....shard? Server? do you play on?

    I need all the friends I can get.
     
  10. That falls into RP vs. PVP. I personally hate PVP since justa little after Tram began and it got nerfed.
     
  11. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    <blockquote><hr>


    However, once you pvp there's no going back to Tram.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you sure about that? I did the entire thing - Crashing 10-15 man spawns solo on my mage, crashing spawns with a dozen of my friends, massive oak and harry fights, hopping to different guild houses for fights, even being a spawn thief, or in the old days helping merchant types cross the roads in safety etc. for over six straight years with much success. Yet today it has been just under 1.5 years that I last bothered to PvP. Of course, my heart still lies in fel because that is where I started and that is where most of my memories are but absolutely no interest to PvP again.

    <blockquote><hr>



    Right now Atlantic is a pvp hot spot. The pvp here is amazing.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ya hot spot relative to other shards. However, it is nothing compared to past. Mostly we are left with rather immature people who go on hot boards and yap about god knows what.

    Added later: And yes the trash talk is just unbelievable in fel. The level of personal attacks that happen daily is incomprehensible and it makes any decent person wonder what type of people make up the UO community. I clearly remember this one example of a certain guild, which still exists (and is still not good at PvP), that had decided to yap about some player's body weight - the type and intensity of comments that followed (even while they were all ghosts) was disgusting. So when my friends finally left there was no looking back at PvP for me. Of course, I am generalizing here but it is a fact that PvP in UO has been deteriorating at its core for many years now - "No point to fight except to kill someone so that you can talk trash or heck, die and still talk absolute trash."
     
  12. I play on Nazgral on my Allaince Char I have a horde ones on another server Zangarmarsh.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    well i think griefing is wrong in trammel/ilshenar.
    but its to be expected in fel.
    you just dont go to fel without the expect someone is gonna come and try and either stop what your trying to achieve or kill you.
    thats what fels for the people who dont live by the rules.
    the people who do what they want when they want and i rather like it that way
     
  14. imported_GFY

    imported_GFY Guest

    I to am a big fan of pvp. I had to relearn the tactics after I returned after 4 years near the end of Samoure Empire. (I returned with a UO Gold disk) What I found is that pvp is much more user intense with special moves and buffs and de-buffs.

    Where I'm going with this is to the popular method of PVP called speed hacking. This IMHO is ruining the game by driving casual players away from PVP in droves. You can build up a good pvm character and then cross over to Fel and get destroyed by some young punk with a cheat program. This creates a culture of cheating. People that want to pvp at a high level start usong these programs so they can compete in the pvp environment. If a person like pvp he will do whatever he feels he needs to do to do it well. If he gets beaten by the same people or group using illegel programs he will either leave (many do) or start using the programs himself.

    Just check out guild rosters. The cheating guilds (everyone knows who they are) are always in flux. People join, learn how to cheat, then take that knowledge to their old guild and share the wealth.

    If UO really wanted their Fel comunities to expand they would eleminate this problem. Instead they perpetuate it by virtually ignoring it and just consintrating on Tram. People play the game for the thrill of killing monsters. Eventually they figure out how, then progress to killing other players. This is a natural game evolution that keeps UO fresh. However with the current Fel situation people play the new content then leave for a while untill new content comes out, then do it again.
     
  15. bordegan

    bordegan Guest

    While trash talk does get out of hand I think a little smack talk is fun. I think my favorite is when you kill someone with another person and say "1vs1 owned" can be funny because after then you just see that ghost spamming all kinds of stuff hehe.

    I do think personal attacks are lame, my brother/cousin get outta hand and I never got it...when you hear them talking in ventrilo the only thing that pops into my mind is "shortbus"
     
  16. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with smack talk. Heck, even npc characters talk smack while you kill them. However, most people forget that they can talk smack and still be in character. I find "1v1 owned" neither witty nor creative.

    There were always "kiddies" in fel. It is just that there were also people with an imagination - which there are very few nowadays.

    Killing a player for the heck of it is dull and redundant. However, killing a player because they would not give you their shoes is amusing. You kill the person in both cases - only one will get you labeled as yew trash. Why not make a story while also pvp'ing? Oh wait - that is nerdy. Better go around "1v1 owning" people instead because that is so cool.
     
  17. bordegan

    bordegan Guest

    1vs1 is a lot better than personal attacks...there use to be this guild with an "s" in the abbrev that use to have plenty of players that made random personal attacks with language to boot...so I would think mine is ok. [​IMG]

    If I'm playing my red I have to worry about multiple dismount archers, tamers, and misc blue characters...that doesn't give a red time to say anything really...you run up..kill the person..and hope you get away before your dismounted with 10-15 players and pets on you.

    There are a lot of mature pvpers out there..you just have to find them and going to yew gate you won't find many..I suggest you try fighting people in fire dungeon..at their ghalls...champ spawns... 90% of the time I could go up to a guildhall like HOT's and ask for duels and we would duel for 15-30 minutes and have fun...no smack talk or nothing...but when your sitting there in a huge field fight with 60+ people mixed up fighting eachother you don't have enough time to say "should have given me those shoes mate" or whatever...


    The only thing I'm creative with is my macro spam. [​IMG]
     
  18. Think the point was made here, Fel is not Tram, etc.
     
  19. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    <blockquote><hr>

    there use to be this guild with an "s" in the abbrev that use to have plenty of players that made random personal attacks with language to boot...so I would think mine is ok. [​IMG]


    [/ QUOTE ]
    All large guilds, irrespective of their names, has and had trash talkers. Nice attempt at creating a straw man though [​IMG]

    <blockquote><hr>

    I suggest you try fighting people in fire dungeon..at their ghalls...champ spawns...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    been there, done that - I hardly ever did yew gate unless feeling particularly masochistic.

    <blockquote><hr>


    The only thing I'm creative with is my macro spam. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Probably more creative than 90% of the people.