1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Ninjitsu Running forms need a change

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Splup, Nov 18, 2008.

  1. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I made a new archer few weeks ago, and I find it kinda lame that I need only 80 ninjitsu to use llama/ostard form. It's very easy to fit in any dexer template. Also the fact that you can cast it while running, just by keeping ur button down since there's no overcast is lame, because of this there's no need to get 100 % success chance since few fizzles doesn't really matter.

    I'm not sure which one/ones these should be changed:

    1. Need GM or Legendary to use form

    2. Not able to cast while running.

    3. There should be overcast.

    I know this, again, is mainly PvP problem. IMHO here 80 skillpoints gives too big advantage.
     
  2. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    Actually, you need only 70 for ossie and llama forms.
    The more useful forms like wolf, kirin requires higher.

    However, there is overcast...I can't count the number of times when I held the animal form macro for too long and got changed back immediately.

    80 skill points in healing, eval, resist, parry, necro also gives a very strong advantage. Actually, if you are talking about warriors, putting 80 points in magery also give a very big advantage (similar to getting 80 weapon skill for mages). Note that these are offensive capabilities.

    80 points in ninjitsu gives you the ability to run away. A more defensive capability. So in this context, how would it be more unbalancing than those above and considered a candidate for the nerf stick?

    As you said, this is a problem for PvP. Nerfing this will hurt the non pvp'rs. Also, I am opposed to any nerfing in general. I think it's better to look at strengthening other templates.
     
  3. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    As far as I know, warriors cannot use weapon specials or cast any other non-ninja/form spells. That is a decent enough handicap for the bonuses the running form spells give.
     
  4. Daelomin

    Daelomin Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    32
    Easy balanced fix:

    Add frozen mode casting time to every animal form which makes you run as mounted, exactly like mounting a ethereal mount. This casting time should be interuptable of course.
     
  5. Kimball

    Kimball Guest

    There is no need to change this form, even for PVP. Ninja's, while in animal form, can not use their weapon specials. They can't cast spells, as previously stated, but they can't even use other Ninja specials like focus attack, death strike,Ki-attack, etc. In addition, when you are using the form to run, it certainly makes a difference if you fizzle a few times. Every time you fizzle, the other player(s) is another step closer to you.
     
  6. Fink

    Fink Guest

    They just fixed a bug that pretty much did that, especially coming out of animal form there was a lockup of about a second. Also, if you were changing back from form with your KR paperdoll open, the lockup was horrendous (haven't seen if KR's been fixed or if it was related).

    Animal Form's pretty well balanced now in that you can't cast spells, use specials, meditate, etc.. just about any other active skill.
     
  7. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    *sigh*... misinformation at its best. You need 105 ninjitsu to use lama or ostard reliably. You can't use any special/spell while in it, and if you leave it, you'll fizzle more than 50% of times before being able to cast it again. And while there is no direct penalty for overcasting, you are not hitting with weapons in the seconds you need to get into it. And, if animal form still bothers you so much, fetch a bola.

    Used to be inbalanced, now I think it is pretty balanced. Could be slightly adjusted, as MANY things in this game, but I think the priorities are on different stuff...
     
  8. laurlo

    laurlo Guest

    seriously? gm/legendary for ostard form? too funny... what would they do with wolf form? get rid of it? no thanks.
     
  9. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    You should be able to make macros to specify specific forms too.
     
  10. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    This might be non-issue for many trammies, but I have to mention something that happens in real PvP world.

    There's a new born template that's an archer that basically uses super dragon to kill. So they can dismount shot ect ect. For very little points in Ninjitsu the tamer archer can now command a 5slot super dragon while remaining on mount speed. On my shard there's a few PvPers using this tactics. They dismount shot you all kill and go into form and chase you. If you are lucky and didnt get instantly killed by the dragon the tamer is still right on you because there's no way you can remount while hes in animal form attacking you while you are on foot.

    Against more than 1 opponent the tamer usually just all kill and run the other way. There's a chance for the dragon to instantly cast multiple Exp/FSs with a 70dmg fire breate for an instant kill (while the tamer is running the oppoite direction) if you actually PvP you will know if RNG is not in your favor, a super dragon CAN nearly kill instantly while the tamr is running away full speed i animal form.

    I BELIEVE, when they added super dragons in game that takes up all control slots the DEV didnt want the tamer who already possess such a deadly beast to be able to run away at mount speed.

    Animal form should take up 1 control slot just like any mount/ethy. This fix does not affect anyone other thana few PvP gimplets. And this is indeed unbalancing. Because it's nearly impossible to solo take out a super dragon effectively in PvP, so any real pvper thats worth any salt will tell you to go for the tamer. But if the tamer is not actually PvPing. They are just ostard form in and all kill and run away hoping to get some lucky RNG for easy and zero skill kills. While this dont seem too bad, a tamer w/decent connection playing like this can never die and when they are running AWAY they might kill someone, and if the tamer is fighting along side his super dragon in any 1v1 they will mot likely to kill you if they do dismount shot all kill you.

    Real PvPers can understand what I am trying to say. DEV please look into this. Mount speed form should be taking up 1 slot. This will fix a long needed hole in PvP and it will NOT affect any PvMers.
     
  11. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron The DarkOutlaws, TDO

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2001
    Messages:
    17,280
    Likes Received:
    3,230
    I would like to see to stealth if in form, other than rat form
     
  12. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,639
    Likes Received:
    1
    It was worse when they hit you with a dismount, changed in to wolf or ki-rin form and then chased after you, and if you managed to outrun the dragon, all they did was pet ball it back on top of you. While I like my greater dragon, I still think they should not have been introduced in the game (at least not as a tamable).

    I have no problem with being able to change forms while on the run for reasons already posted. Plus if your an archer, your pretty much limited to using 3 ninjitsu specials unless your a stealth archer (mirror image, change forms, and death strike), and the've already nerfed death strike for archers.

    For some reason I can't remember if getting hit by a dismount while in animal form takes you out of form.
     
  13. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dismount attack do take out out of animal form. But the problem is not the animal form the problem is it doesnt require a control slot thus allowing greater dragon to be used to gain unfair advantage in PvP while not suffering from the only drawback, cannot move at mount speed. Using a pet thats capable of instantly killing any PvPer with some good RNG roll, shouldnt be able to also have the mobility of other mounted players.

    And after the dismount the tamer now have a super pet casting/biting/fire breathe thats cnistantly attacking you (while ignoring casting time) with the tamer now has BETTER mobility than you do shooting at you with a hard hitting heavy crossbow in animal from. If you stop and heal, dragon gets closer and cast/fire breathe for 70dmg, if you dont heal tamer will eat away your HP with a heavy because they have double your running speed and resummon the dragon a few steps past where you are gonna run to, and all kill again, GG.

    Monsters and pets casting mechnism is different than player. From what I understanding they have no casting time and no frozen time. And monsters casts two spells back to back at once. Mobs casts like SPELL SPELL then PAUSE for a second then SPELL, SPELL. If you pay attention you can stand on edge of screen where a mob can barely target you with spell. As soon as the first spell hits you take off an run off screen, and you will get hit by the 2nd spell regardless of range. Try it you will see it really goes like spell spell pause spell spell for mosters. But its another advantage pets have. Make it so mount speed forms taking 1 slot will fix everything.:bowdown:
     
  14. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Animal form is not equivalent to a pet and it hence it shouldn't take control slot...
     
  15. Rix/\

    Rix/\ Guest

    I would trade a nerf to animal form IF they made it where mages couldn't cast while mounted

    both sounding about as stupid as the other
     
  16. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes it does take you out of form if hit by a dismount.

    I agree that being in animal form should take a control slot.
     
  17. RE Spulp: Ninjitsu is 4/6 casting, try it with & then without. There is a recovery. Using the minimum skill is in no way viable in PvP. If it was then most people wouldn't have more than 65 necro. Casting it while moving is a specific function of it that puts you in the last form used, that is in no way unbalanced. The few fizzles you mentioned are the difference between living and dying.

    RE Dunarrack: Pets are f'd up in PvP so you want to nerf ninjitsu again/further? Pets don't move any faster because of animal form. Yes you're right thats how pets cast but changing animal form isn't going to make any difference to that. Everything you've described is a problem with pets not ninjitsu, you can't moving shot (or any special) in animal form.
     
  18. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Like a poster said before stop trying to nerf the game into the 80's just strengthen all other templates wait forgot this isnt a template game just random skills and we dont want this game a template game that is whats hurting the game more making only specific templates cause pretty much you have to. So in that case strengthen all the other skills that would be better solution and will give those players that are missing the skills make more a difference than items like it should be a push in the right direction.
    The more you nerf more skills the more everyone gets stuck into specific templates and have to count on items to save the day more than skill.
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Animal form is fine the way it is. Yeah, you can use it at 70. But you fail like crazy when trying to cast into that form, even at 80. You can't cast into animal form right after dismounting someone, you can be dismounted in that form and like a real mount, you cannot recast immediately into form, you can't use specials or any spells in that form, and when you are running in animal form you loose stamina just as if you were running on foot unlike using a real mount. It doesn't need a control slot and I don't see why. A control slot is for controlling another person/pet, such as a mount you are riding or a dragon, etc. Animal form is just altering your own character, there is no additional pet or person under your command.
     
  20. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes we all know that pets are fk'ed up in PvP. For those who accused me of trying to get ninja nerfed please give out some examples. I gave my reasoning and actual live example of how mount speed forms can be abused WHEN USED WITH greater dragon. And only thing that might affect the ninja is losing one(1) control slot WHEN they are running in mount speed only. When is the last time you ever seem a ninja walking around with 5 mirror images at all time in PvP?

    I believe many of you already know how easily running form can be abused with a greater and I believe many of you use it. I think the reason DEV ever allowed greaters in PvP is because 1 reason, tamer cannot be running as fast as other players who do not control such an overpowered pet. Which is most likely why greaters are made to take up all control slots.

    No other pet in game has the power and survivability of a greater and I believe tamers know better. And pet combos can usually be taken out in PvP if tamer is not being careful. A greater can have up to 1000 point HP and near legendary in most of their skills. They dont really have a resist hole like most (all?) other pets. The only drawback for a greater is the tamer cant run as fast. Putting some ninja skill can bypass the only thing thats keeping greater dragon marginal acceptable in PvP.

    As I said if the tamer dismounted you, using moving shot or not really makes no difference. Tamer is running at 200% faster than the dismounted victim. If you still dont understand I will put it this way. YOU(assuming ur the tamer) are an archer running ON MOUNT with a heavy with hit lighting w/ no specials, with your greater thats capable of instantly killing your victim (running on foot at half of YOUR speed) with no instant kill auto kill machine protecting him. How can you NOT beat him?

    Since you mentioned moving shot (i didnt in my previous posts), you do NOT need it. You are already running 200% faster and you cant find a way to stay in range and stop for 0.25second to fire shots? If enemy is running on foot while ur mounted, moving shot is worse then a regular shot because you lose some hci. If you still dont see the point then I am sorry, maybe my English is really bad or you might not PvP so you dont understand PvP balance. Well maybe you are one of those doggy greater dragon all killers and do not want DEV to be aware of this inbalance.

    I just think running speed form should take 1 control slot ad NOTHING else. Not nerfing ninjas (what kind of ninja commands a dragon?). Please be constructive. Peace out.
     
  21. Example: You cite issues with pets & dm & are saying to fix it change ninjitsu, why not change the pets or dm mechanics, that would actually make sense.

    If a tamer dismounts you they are put in the same 5s 'mount' timer as the dismounted person so they are not running at 200% and without moving shot they are not going to swing.

    As I said after you dismount they are in the same timer, this gives you time to get away from the pet. An archer in animal form (without specials) is not going to kill anyone.

    You are not already 200% faster because you can't dismount while in animal form.

    I don't know why peoples first defense is always 'you must not understand' - I understand what you said you're just wrong.

    I use the 5s timer to get away from the pet, the archer in form isn't a problem.

    Ninjitsu causes no imbalance.

    Why would a ninja NOT be able to use pets? Every other template in the game can. Which again the issue is pets not ninjitsu.
     
  22. In Flames

    In Flames Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    0
    Urm.... I don't really agree with the OP but I just want to ask...

    How?

    Can't run away from those oh slow moving monsters fast enough?

    o_O
     
  23. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0

    Most of your arguments can be countered after 5 second and you are 200% speed, and now you can run past opponent and resummon dragon now its back to "you got 200% speed with a dragon able to output 130+ dmg in 2 seconds" and if you were a real PvPer and play it smart, you have more than enough time to remount because your dragon is like a 2nd person but stronger with 1000hp and if they ever try to remount they will die.

    Yes you are simply wrong saying there's no advantages having animal form AND greater dragon. A ninja is able to use pet, JUST like everyone else right? (its ur own words), and when they use an overpowered pet they should be forced to walk JUST LIKE everyone else... right? I think we agree there or are you a hypocrit?

    What you said really dont make sense. Please be more constructive.
     
  24. Ozymandies

    Ozymandies Guest

    Your own words:

    " . . . and when they use an overpowered pet . . ."

    about sums it up. It's the greaters, not the ninjitsu. Or are you a hypocrite?

    OZ
     
  25. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    The pet is not problem if we have the option to take out the tamer thats using them. Everyone in game choose to use a greater dragon cannot run at mount speed unless you abuse the machnism mentioned above.

    I mentioned in my previous post and inmy own words "greater is marginally OK in PvP because the initial idea of using a greater is the user(tamer) to be slower than everyone else." Because greater is so amazingly hard to kill PvPers are left with no option but to take out the tamer.

    If the pet is as powerful as a greater AND beingused at running speed then it's overpowered. I did not contradict myself its just that you failed to read thru posts clearly.

    So its mount speed + greater that's the problem not just greaters or ninjitsu. Sorry I am not a hypocrit. I try to at least give out all valid/live examples in my posts. I forgive you because many people dont read clearly and jump the gun. Please be constructive. Peace out.
     
  26. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Agreed...
    Ninjitsu is not the problem and pointing issues at it is a mistake
    I fail ki-rin or unicorn form even at 120....
     
  27. Tasslehoff

    Tasslehoff Guest

    tamers with a gdragon lol they are easy to kill.either you have a real ****ty connection.or b you need to not list urself as a real pvper..
     
  28. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    My take on this subject is that it used to be that a necro could summons a steed(animate dead) and ride this mount follower slot free. Its the same with ninjitsu. If they took away the free follower from necros they should then follow suit with animal forms. If not Please give my necro back his free mount!

    (note) If you cross a server line with this animated steed it stops losing HP)
     
  29. Dunarrack

    Dunarrack Visitor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please be constructive. Stop wasting our time. Sorry but you have not met a good tamer yet. Maybe the shard you play is not really into PvP? Get on foot and duel a tamer/archer with greater dragon 4/6 casting and 50EP and allow him to use animal form. Yes the tamer (assuming he complete suck in PvP) might not kill you "instantly" but if he knows when to run away he will never die. And that's the problem.

    If you are calling yourself a real PvPer you should know how effective/fast a greater dragon can kill if used by a good tamer but if you have never pvped or have never met a good tamer on your shard, I understand. :sad4:

    Also as someone stated necro animated mount didnt use to take control slot, and it is "fixed" to avoid mounted player using 5 control slot pet combo. This very samething is going on rightnow, using pets taking up 5 slots shouldnt allow the player to have mount speed. According to Draconi, It's good to keep the game in uniform. They fixed no skill vamp form as well as all form changing spells to make everyone the same. Samething has been done to necromancy so should ninjitsu.

    Again, it's ok if you disagree but please be constructive and dont waste forum bandwidth if you have nothing to say but "ROFLLOLOLOL YOUSUX!!!1111oneeleven!". Please dont be so childish. :blushing: Some posts really reminds me of WoW forums.
     
  30. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Still not the same. If they make ninjutsu form take a follower space that means all change forms take a space including polymorth. Theres no follower so has nothing to do with slots. Its just a template too many nerfs for everything especially when it comes to pvp. I can imagine the nerf gargoye form cause they can fly for a limited time. Everyone just got to learn to play the game and not rely on nerf to make sure there chosen skill set is stronger than there enemies.
     
  31. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Sounds like more of an issue with taming in pvp than ninjitsu. I think you're going after the wrong nerf here.
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Dev I hope you can notice the trend for the last 11 years. This is how it goes warrior calls nerf for tamer claiming balance tamer gets mad calls nerf on warrior claiming balance both warrior and tamer want to deflect the nerf and calls for nerf on mage claiming balance mage gets mad and calls nerf on warrior and also calls for thief to deflect, thief gets mad and calls nerf on mage,tamer,warrior they claim nerf on sampire and ninjas then they claim nerf on necros all in the name of balance. On and on it goes where it stops will be stick figures with no imagination now thats on the pvp side then we go on the pvm side a template fights better than another they claim nerf and then that template does the same to the other. Then theres the fel against tram nerfs and the vet against newbies and the newbies against vets. Where will it stop?
    Balance up not down make skills stronger not weaker at least that way it wont be no more nerfs and just I want my template stronger but they cant complain as much as nerfers can and we be moving forward instead backwards to atari games. Please at least read this reasoning agree or dont agree but just consider it then many of these nerf post will disapere and people will start enjoying this game instead of dreading the next patch when they might lose another abilitie and make it worthless.
     
  33. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    Yes, that's one reason to use animal form. But mainly because the nerf suggested is to increase the skills required for running forms across the board. Non pvp'rs use nintjisu and animal form as well, one reason is to run away from the faster moving monsters (paragons/miasma/rend, speedhacking roaches in doom etc), away from spell casting monsters/dragon breath. And this is normal lag situations. If you ping 300, the effect is even more pronounced.

    A blanket change to increase the minimum skill required will hurt everyone, includer PvM'rs.

    Now, unless the suggestion only affects PVP'rs, then it won't hurt the PvM'rs.

    So, to consider the opposite, is there a way to stengthen other templates? The main issue that's highlighted is the GD has a chance to combo Explo/FS/Firebreath which will result in instant death.

    If we go with a boosting other templates method, we can look at boosting the HPs for players. Again, simply boosting HP will unbalancing PvP mages, so a proper look into this is required, like boosting the mana pool. I have considered the 1 control slot solution, and I do not dispute that it's an elegant solution to this issue. It doesn't hurt PvM'rs as much, but it still impacts them. I can use that 1 control slot to summon nature's fury or pixie/imp to draw rend's attention away from me, or even to join my 2 other EVs that are already engaging Miasma.



    It would be a different story if the suggestion would only target just the PvP aspects. On one hand, I think using pets/summons is more a PK/gank tactic than PvP. It's not just the GD. I mean, let's say somehow the GD is made non viable for PvP. What's to stop the same tamer using 5 frenzied ossies/prepatch imps? Even if animal form takes 1 slot, it's still 4 ozzies with pack instinct.

    On the other hand, I also think Fel tamers should be able to defend themselves.

    So if we look at the issue from this angle, maybe viable solutions would be to cap the damage that pets does to other players, or even make pets refuse to attack other players when commanded. They only attack if the tamer is being guarded. Now, again, it's not so simple, this will impact many other things that needs to be properly looked at. And it's a nerf too, which I don't like. I am saying it just to offer another angle to look at the problem.
     
  34. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    Thank you! If a balance is really required, balance upwards, not down.
     
  35. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,218
    Likes Received:
    49
    whats lame is that even at 120 ninja, u only have a 50% chance of getting into ki-rin form
     
  36. Akalabeth

    Akalabeth Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    49
    I just wish that people would quit wanting to change things.
     
  37. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,218
    Likes Received:
    49
    guess you voted for McCain
     
  38. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    164
    There will be no mentioning of RL politics on UHall. If you wish to discuss anything political - feel free to peruse our OT forums.
    Thank you.
     
  39. _zigzag_

    _zigzag_ Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    3
    And this comment has what to do with the subject at hand?

    C'mon... let's not turn this in to another thread that gets locked or moved :)
     
  40. ABSOLUTELY correct! It's one thing if it is a new skill or ability to tweak and nerf downward, and quite another thing when the ability has been around for years. It just frustrates players when they have adjusted their characters template, armor and weapons to use certain abilities and have it all go to dust in one patch.

    Why is it always someone saying other people should be nerfed and not themselves?
     
  41. sarloth

    sarloth Guest

    My 2gp:

    I think if someone wants to devote 100+ skill points (It takes this much to be reliable, 80 was unrealistic, but still skill points used.) to their template to be able to run at mount speed and nothing else (they really don't get anything else from ninja, unless they start using shurikan) then that is penalty enough. They do not need to use control slots when they are surrendering skill points for this ability.
     
  42. No they can't & you haven't. A dragon isn't going to do that without it's melee and breath hitting at the same time, which it won't be because summoning a pet takes time, remounting/animal form takes time.

    This makes absoloutely no sense, which person are you trying to even argue this from. No real PvPer is dying to this unless trapped.

    Taking what I said and saying it back to me doesn't constitute an argument.

    All pets are overpowered but no we're not agreeing and no not because I'm a hypocrite, but because I can distinguish between aspects that are part of being a tamer (having an OP pet) and aspects that are part of being a ninja (being able to use mounted speeds) What you continue to fail to understand is that running in mounted speed does not make the pet any faster and therefore any issue YOU have with dying to pets/archers is down to mechanics of those classes on their own and completely seperate from mounted speed which is an aspect of ninjitsu.

    How can it be unconstructive if you didn't understand it. lol