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No love for bards

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Anon McDougle, Jul 8, 2008.

  1. in a long long time no new items or anything for a long time how about a nice blessed lute or flute make it so it has to be equiped and maybe a new skill of some sort
     
  2. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    u do know bards are short of pvp, the uber toon of the game!!!!!
     
  3. packrat

    packrat Guest

    That's the biggest joke I have heard in almost 9 years.. Are you reading these boards? I have not seen one complaint about bards needing to be nerfed because they solo everything.

    I am 120 music, peace, provocation, discordance. That is 480 points. That only leave 240 points for magery, eval and meditation. Now you have to choose which one you will keep. Most high end creatures can't be peaced. Some can be discorded after many attempts.
     
  4. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    oops i have one of those lol !!!!!!!!!! did i say nerf it !!!!!!!! learn lol grass hopper


     
  5. There hasn't been any love for bards for years.

    Most high end stuff added since AOS has been immune to provoke and peace.

    The only unique item added for bards was the firehorn, which is fairly weak on a 360 point bard (not tried it on a 480) and not worth the effort.

    The last change to the bard skills was enticement changed to discordance. (I'd bet most the people playing now don't know wth I'm talking about with enticement)

    There used to be many ideas floating around for new bard stuff some good some bad some as simple as requests for equipable instruments and some as indepth as songbooks, at some point the devs were going to do something with bards working in a group for special abilities. I remember hearing the term 'a troupe of bards' I suppose similar to arcanists getting a circle. It obviously didn't happen and likely never will.

    Many people wanted the pure bard template to have some direct damage abilities.
     
  6. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    actually last love was tokono, as in slayer flutes that recharged but u might not remeber lol!!!!!!!!!!




     
  7. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    Ah, the bard. The first template I ever played in UO. I STILL love my bard but agree.....up to 480 points invested and I can peace a gdrag or provo a rotting corpse on to the dark daddy about one in a hundred attempts (yes, that is an exaggeration, but not much). It is LONG, LONG, LONG overdue to give bards some love. It's total BS that I fail so much with so many skill points invested. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a fix.:rant2:
     
  8. packrat

    packrat Guest

    If you call that showing love. You must be single.

    There aren't many templates out there that require 480 points and fail so many times. I bet if mages failed to cast half as many times as we fail there would be a riot going on.
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Guest

    The last best thing that ever was done at least for the prov end for bards was stoping others sumons and tames to retarget when the skill was used, Now with that siad becareful, Once that U.O genie's out of the bottle youll get your wish but it will never be what you expected, After all you cant use any of the bard skills on the strangers, And those poor mages have there fair share of problem.
     
  10. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Actually your both wrong...... indeed it was the flute you get off dreadhorn that was and is the last thing bards have gotten...... also is like the flutes of renewal in that it does renew points but isn't a specific "slayer" at all.....


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    Please click the egg/hatchling and help my dragons grow.
     
  11. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
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    Not an uproar, they would completely wreck the place. Could you see the posts if one mage failed in magery like we do in Peace/Provo/Disc @ 120. lmao this place would be a Whine :rant2: factory
     
  12. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    New tunes...(bag pipes any one)? Direct damage over time area effect, " the banjo's sweet music weakens your armor" there is a ton of things they could do for bards...:thumbup1:
     
  13. mutau

    mutau Guest

    Yup, thats for darn sure.:thumbup1:
     
  14. Fink

    Fink Guest

    No to forced-equip, that would be like telling mages to drop their spellbooks to wrestle. No to new skill, bard templates are already pretty crammed.

    I'd rather top-end (160-difficulty) critters were easier (than current levels) to bard, but broke the effect more readily, say within the space of one or two skill delays. ie: the critter would be easier to, say, provoke.. but would actively need to be kept there rather than the provoke lasting forever. A bit like peace, but with a better initial chance to bard.

    eg: Ancient Wyrm

    Rather than fail-fail-fail-fail-fail-fail-provoke-forever, something more like provoke-break-provoke-break.. requires diligence rather than dumb luck. Same for discord/peace. At least with those non-bardables / max-difficulty creatures. It would be a different kind of tactic.

    Also fire horns should come in poison, cold, and energy varieties. :thumbup:
     
  15. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    *shrug* We bards tend to be ministered to every four to six years or so. I expect we'll get a little loving in a few patches, but for the most part I expect nothing new or changed anytime soon.

    Truthfully, I really really really would just like the ability to play my own tunes -- or that we would have a set of tunes like we do with Dawn's gears that we could gather. This is something that has disappointed me since 1998 (and my first go with practicing musicianship.)

    Which should tell you why I have absolutely no belief that we'll get anything for at least another year or two.
     
  16. Sneaky

    Sneaky Guest

    Yes, this is why 120 Music, Provo, Peace and Disco scrolls COMBINED would not equal the value of a 120 mage scroll, in fact they would not even come close... music is the only one worth > 1mill (on Oceania), so you get what you pay for if you like :p

    I do agree though 100% bards could do with some love, as could many other aspects of UO, at the moment though Factions are getting love which I would argue is more, urgent than bards considering how long it has been since Factions got love...
     
  17. Provo bards are the only templates in game that can solo darkfather.... easily.


    Summon up an earthy or two, attack df, get him to spawn bones and provo all the creatures onto him.
     
  18. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Bards abilities should be increased based on the combined total of skill points in the 4 skills. For instance, 120 music and 120 discord gives you a 1 in 20 chance of discording a 160 level creature currently, which includes all the highend stuff. Don't change that, but add a bonus to it. Make the bonus an additional 20-25% tops and then scale it based on skill points invested in all 4. So 480 points gets you the top bonus and 240 points would get you half that if scaled linearly.
     
  19. Gwendar-SP

    Gwendar-SP Guest

    Since bards discord peoples pets annd get them killed without it being a hostile act they need no love. I certainly have stopped providing them with their instruments of distruction.
     
  20. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
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    Last time, I've tried (a few years ago *g*), fire horns were not affected by lrc. THAT would be a change to make them useable.
    While barding skills itself are really strong and in most cases worth their invested 240 skillpoints (music + any other barding skill), pure bards are not that strong. They are formidable supporters but if they have to compete at a spot with other chars, they usually will be at the disadvantage.
     
  21. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Before anyone says it, I don't have anything against bards.
    The only times I've ever seen them around, they've been awesome (and a little extra success chance would be nice).

    But... And there's always a "but"...

    There are plenty of templates that require more than 480 skills to be able to even dream of surviving an encounter with some of the stuff a bard can face at 480.
     
  22. mmmbeer

    mmmbeer Guest

    id like to see the renewel flutes recharge way faster....1 charge every 5 mins is useless!!! bards go thru uses faster than that easily.

    oh and firehorns should be able to be used with lrc suit on!!!
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think rather than new instruments (though darn I'm bored of the same old tunes :D) I'd like to see a better look at the barding difficulty list.

    IMHO there is far too much need to have a bard over GM. In all honesty, 120 is truly necessary in any bard skill because of the 160 mobs. I wonder how many other skills would like high end spells etc to have a 160 skill requirement. Not to mention that you can drop an EV and invis yourself, while the bard needs to be close and visible to maintain a barding effect.

    If you compare barding difficulty to taming difficulty on pets for example, it's noticibly harder to bard than to tame. Surely it should be easier getting a dragon to fight something than become a quiet loyal friend? My tamers find most things get angry easily lol.


    Pet....Tame skill/bard skill

    Kitsune - 80.7 / 95.5
    Cu sidhe - 101.1 / 126.9
    Dragon - 93.9 / 105
    Rune beetle - 93.9 / 110.2

    Then we do have some which are reversed, mares are much easier to bard for example.

    Now before any anti bards say "but it's a different formula" it's ok, I know that ;) I'm just comparing the difficulty assigned to those critters when you compare taming and barding. I know both figures are worked out differently.

    AFAIK the current barding success calculation is still this one

    I think that while disco and peace obviously have less need for a boost, provo is very much a third rate skill if it hasn't the support of disco or peace. Both to make attempts easier and to enable one critter to kill another of its kind. Provo bards are good in Doom but beyond the gauntlet, I think they deserve some love.

    Wenchy
     
  24. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    How many years now?
    How Many Years?!
    HOW MANY?!!? :sad3:
    We've heard like 8 different times that bards would get new music since T2A, but it has yet to happen. :(

    Yes, bards could use some attention.

    Entice could be restored but as a combined-skill function like Fire Horns rather than another 100 points.

    New music (which we were told some of was already done!!) could finally be put in.

    Alcohol could work as a short-term skill enhancer for bards. ;) Come on! They're BARDS!

    And enough with all of the immune creatures! Anyone care to do a comparison?
    List all of the creatures immune to melee.
    List all of the creatures immune to spells.
    List all of the creatures immune to pets. (can only think of 2)
    List all of the creatures immune to bardsong. (this could take a while)




    The numbers look skewed, but the truth of it is if you take a 115s bard to provoke Cu onto each other with a gm instrument, your success rate is about the same as a 115s tamer to tame them. (actaully your chances are a little higher)
     
  25. dielock

    dielock Guest

    "*shrug* We bards tend to be ministered to every four to six years or so. I expect we'll get a little loving in a few patches, but for the most part I expect nothing new or changed anytime soon.

    Truthfully, I really really really would just like the ability to play my own tunes -- or that we would have a set of tunes like we do with Dawn's gears that we could gather. This is something that has disappointed me since 1998 (and my first go with practicing musicianship.)

    Which should tell you why I have absolutely no belief that we'll get anything for at least another year or two."




    Now that is not a bad idea. It would increase our chances of surviving a 160 creature rather than fail, run, fail, run OoOoOo.
     
  26. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I think the current bard skills are pretty well balanced. I'd like to see an additional spell skill added that consists of "spellsongs". The power of your spellsongs would be determined by the sum of your provoke, peacemaking and discord skills. The success rate would be determined from your music skill.

    Some spellsongs could get their power from specific bard skills. For example, there could be a lull song that gets all its power from your peacemaking skill, or an AE damage song that gets all its power from your discord skill.

    The thing I like about this idea is that it would complete the bard class AND introduce a new spellcasting mechanism (spells that drain mana/stam as they are maintained)

    A pure bard would basically have the 4 bard skills, the spellsong skill and focus or med.
     
  27. Piotr

    Piotr Stratic's Finest
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    My bard was killed July 23, 2002! - approximately 14 days after I GM'ed Provocation. :(
     
  28. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Barding skills are, in my opinion, the most effective pvm skills available. As someone already posted, a bard with provoke is one of the easiest ways to solo the dark fathers in Doom. You add discord to just about any template and you instantly improve your killing power in pvm by a factor of four, and I doubt there is anything in the game that can't be discorded without too much difficulty by a legendary bard.

    What I would like to see is some pvp capability added to the barding skills. I would like to, in some way shape or form, see bards be able to discord and peace players, and perhaps provoke pets (I don't think this can be currently done). This should be coupled with an aggressor flag for bard skills in pvp, but that isn't the topic here.
     
  29. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    The difference being that the tamer keeps that pet, while the bard is just using it to kill another mob. It's one thing to whisper sweet nothings into the ear of a critter you want a long relationship with, but we don't do that with our bards. Cu's aren't that dangerous from a distance, but that skill delay can be hair-raising if you're trying to voke higher end mobs. I can stand and spam a tame macro beside a cu, I can't with provo. That doesn't account for the need to disco before voking some mobs simply to enable you to attempt a provo.

    The formula for success ensures that provo is more difficult with the skill modifier -

    · Reduce base difficulty by 5 points (10%) when performing Provocation.
    · Reduce base difficulty by 10 points (20%) when performing Discordance or Targeted Peacemaking.

    If you lock bard skills at 100, I think you'd find it's quite heavily weighted to GM+ in music skills when it comes to barding difficulty. I just don't think that's a good idea. It's great for players that have a lot of gold, but while I got lucky and bought cheaper scrolls, you still don't want to know how much my tamer bard cost to scroll up :D

    Wenchy
     
  30. Hehehe your right, theres always a but.:lol:

    But......480 skill points in those templates WILL allow them to kill a ton of solo mobs a 480 bard cannot even touch.

    They tossed us a bone with the odd toughies that have weak spawn we can provo back onto them, or the odd ones we can disco, even tho I get the "shrugs off some of the effects" message way more than I should, and I dunno where or when that even came from. Im sure it was an unnannounced "feature".:bs:

    Point being, 480 points in a bard is tooooooooo much for what can be done with that many points, or I should say what cannot be done.
    I said it before, Ill say it again, IMO, DROP music skill.
    If I know how to disco, provo, peace and it relies on music, SURELY I must know how to play it.
    Example........mages know how to use LRC suits with no knowledge of the leather involved.
    Tamers know how to get meat and feed the pet without cooking skill.
    Warriors know how to kill with a weapon they know nothing of ( no smith skill, no wood skill, no bowcraft)
    Peace.:party:
     
  31. And heals/cures/res/recall would come from?

    If the spellsong included some of these so I could do away with having to be a mage, lets rock.:thumbup:
    But IMO anyone whos a 480 bard knows the magery skill is a must, as you have to have it for those reasons plus summons or the 480 bard skill points are totally wasted.
    Perhaps incorporate it into the Music skill.
    Yeah, bard spellsong could be a cool additional skill, if done right.
    Pardon me if I have little faith of that, tho.:(
     
  32. Neither slayers or renewal charges are anything really unique. Slayers are just an increase in chance and renewal charges are just more charges. Same as trying again and carrying more instruments to start with.
     
  33. This is a good example of adding something we don't already have, slayers and renewal were just increased chances and more charges.
     
  34. No they aren't.

    But even if they were out of all the champs/bosses added to UO since AOS hardly any of it can be provoked.
     
  35. They still aren't. Maybe it would but their still fairly weak.

    I agree, I think bards needs some damaging abilities. I think they should do something like a spellbook (songbook) for bards the spells could have minimum requirements of combined bard skill, so for weaker spells 100 total (50 music 50 whatever) and going all the way up to full 480 bards which get access too much stronger abilities like area stuff. Imagine being able to play the same cacophonic blast as monstrous grizzle the bedlam peerless on a 480 point bard.
     
  36. QFT!
     
  37. Hadn't read this when above I said pretty much the same and I fully agree.
     
  38. Agrees.
     
  39. Seismic

    Seismic Guest

    This is a great idea! Would be nice to see some changes for the beloved bards :)
     
  40. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    In case anyone wants to see the original proposal, this was my "spellsinging" proposal from about 1.5 yrs ago. Don't get too excited about the names of the spellsongs. They could be named anything :)

    Overview
    The following is a proposal of an idea of a new skill called "Spellsinging" which would be added in an expansion as a new bard skill that allows players to create characters that are non-hybridized bards.

    Spellsinging would use a "song book" to store "spellsongs" in it much like how a magery spellbook stores magery spells. These spellsongs would be activated the same as any other spell in the game.

    The advanced character bard would be changed to give spellsinging and focus instead of magery and evaluate intelligence. Non-advanced characters would not be able to start with the spellsinging skill, and would be required to do a quest to get the spellsinging skill.

    Defensive Spellsinging spells would effect the entire party that the bard is in. Offensive Spellsinging spells would effect all non-partied non-blue, or aggressive targets within the spell's effect radius.

    Some spellsongs would be persistant; doing an effect over a period of time and other spellsongs would have cast times, durations, etc. Persistant spellsongs are not interrupted when the bard is hit, and perform a skill check every song cycle. Persistant spellsongs use a certain amount of mana to cast just like a magery spell, but also use a certain amount of stamina every song cycle. Persistant spellsongs end their effects when the bard switches what song he is playing or the bard doesn't have enough stamina to pay for the next song cycle.

    Spellsong Potency & Success Chances
    Spellsong potency is determined by the sum of Discordance, Provocation and Peacemaking on the spellsinger. A bard with a 360 total in these three skills would have spellsongs of the maximum potency. I think the system would work fine if song potency were linear meaning a 360 bard would be 3x more powerful than a 120 bard. Spellsinging potency determines the radius of effect and overall power of spellsinging spells.

    Spellsongs will use the bard's spellsinging and musicianship skills to determine their success rate. Spellsinging would be a difficulty based skill that determines a bard's spellsinging success check same way magery and other casting skills do. After a bard completes a spellsinging check, the system then does a musicianship skill check, which is simply a percentage chance to succeed just like other musicianship checks. A bard with 100 or higher musicianship will not fail this check ever. A bard with 50 musicianship has a 50% chance to succeed this check.

    How to get spellsongs
    All spellsongs that can be cast by a bard with <= 20 spellsinging could come with the song book and would be considerably weaker than higher difficulty spellsongs. This is to allow human bards to take advantage of spellsinging using jack of all trades, but not be as powerful as a bard that has actually invested skill points in the skill.

    Some of the songs may be attained as monster loot drops and quest rewards.

    The pure spellsinging bard

    The strongest possible spellsinging template would be this
    120 Musicianship
    120 Peacemaking
    120 Provocation
    120 Discordance
    120 Spellsinging
    120 Focus

    Since spellsongs will use both mana and stamina, bards will want to have focus to increase the rate that stamina and mana regenerate.

    Persistant songs
    KEY: AE = Area Effect

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Dodging
    Effect: Persistant +DCI to party
    Min Skill: 0

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Striking
    Effect: Persistant +HCI to party
    Min Skill: 0

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Stamina
    Effect: +to party Stamina regeneration
    Min Skill: 0

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Haste
    Effect: Persistant +SSI
    Min Skill: 20

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Damage
    Effect: Persistant +DMG to party
    Min Skill: 20

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Health
    Effect: Persistant +to party HP regeneration
    Min Skill: 50

    Song Name: Bard's Alacrity
    Effect: Persistant, Reduces party skill timers using the following equation. (Bard Potency/50) * .5 seconds. So a bard with 3x 120 Discordance, Peacemaking and Provocation would reduce skill timers by 3.6 seconds. To avoid making some skills instantaneous, this spell would be capped to not reduce skill timers below 2 seconds. If a skill naturally has a timer < 2 seconds it is not effected by bards alacrity.
    Min Skill: 50

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Defense
    Effect: Persistant +DCI +Physical Resist to party
    Min Skill: 60

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Elemental Protection
    Effect: Persistant +to all Elemental Resists
    Min Skill: 70

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Offense
    Effect: Persistant +HCI +DMG +SSI to party
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Mana
    Effect: Persistant +to party mana regeneration
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Faster Casting
    Effect: Persistant +1 to FC (can raise FC to 3)
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Cold Song
    Effect: Persistant AE cold damage every song cycle
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Fire Song
    Effect: Persistant AE fire damage every song cycle
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Physical Song
    Effect: Persistant AE physical damage every song cycle
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Regeneration
    Effect: Persistant +HP regen +Stamina regen +Mana regen for party
    Min Skill: 100

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Greater Elemental Protection
    Effect: Persistant +to all Elemental Resists for party (can raise elemental resists up to 80 across the board)
    Min Skill: 100

    Song Name: Iolo's Song of Wizardry
    Effect: Persistant +LMC +SDI to party
    Min Skill: 100

    Non-persistant songs

    Song Name: Travelers song
    Cast Time: 4 seconds
    Effect: Pops up a box asking the party if they want to be transported to the location. All party members that click yes are transported as if they stepped through a moongate.
    Min Skill: 40

    Song Name: Audiblast
    Cast Time: Instant
    Recast Delay: 3 seconds
    Effect: AE physical damage based on bard power. A high power bard would hit about as hard as wither.
    Min Skill: 60

    Song Name: Cacophonic Assailment
    Cast Time: Instant
    Recast Delay: 3 minutes
    Effect: Resistable AE Stun effect. Chance to be resisted determined by target's magic resist skill and bard's potency.
    Min Skill: 80

    Song Name: Summon Satyr
    Cast Time: 5 seconds
    Effect: Summons a satyr that obey's the bard's pet commands. The strength of the satyr is determined by the bard's potency.
    Min Skill: 90
     
  41. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Disco is a great skill, I have no issue with that and I'm happy with its performance. Provo though does need love. You know as well as I do, when there's a discussion about what bard skill to put on a tamer, disco usually wins, closely followed by peace. Only a few nutcases like myself suggest provo, and I'd only suggest it as a second bard skill.

    I wouldn't expect the same PvM effectiveness from my 110 bard as I would a tamer of the same skill, or a warrior for that matter. Not to mention the time delays... I certainly don't think a hybrid that just used music and provo would stack up well against the good warrior, tamer and mage templates out there. Disco is great if you can fit it in on top of provo, but you shouldn't need disco and music just to have a hope in heck of provoking a mob.

    I wouldn't want to p*** people off by discoing and voking them, yeah it would be funny, but the only positive would be making tamers the second most hated template in Fel after bards lol.

    Wenchy
     
  42. It's highly likely that what I was remembering was your idea Sarphus if it was in ideas den. Or your idea crossed with what the devs once planed.

    Though (& I probably said as much at the time) I don't think it should take an extra skill, but I agree that it should be activated via a quest like spellweaving. Skill requirements would be from 100 to 480 and I would hope it included some low level heal/cure/bene effects (solo or party or targetable) some mid level summons (I like the idea of a satyr) and damage (like your idea of it phys damage as there needs to be more of those) and for 480 point bards some high end effects like the bedlam peerless' cacophonic blast or dreadhorns curse thingy, an area poison ability is always something I wanted too maybe combined with the poisoning skill for higher levels.

    I think that would be sufficiently attractive enough for people to have 480 point pure bards, I know some use it already but I've always felt prov and peace were in conflict.

    I think also that they should have mana costs similar to spellweaving (i.e high) especially if they were persistant effects.
     
  43. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Yeah, I posted it on ideas den twice. I have the whole "idea" in a text file, so I can pull it out every now and then. I haven't actually read through it completely in over a year, so I just post the premise of the idea and eventually copy/paste in the post.

    I know it's lazy, but it gets other people's creative juices flowing, which is a good way to get useful feedback to the designers.
     
  44. Piotr

    Piotr Stratic's Finest
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5paXeKX-W8

    :D
     
  45. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    What he said.

    *sits with Piotr in the corner*
     
  46. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    I was thinking of making a bard. I thought it'd be fun. Perhaps a gargoyle bard.
    I read this thread and realize how they lack love. I got discouraged.
    Then I read Sarphus' post and I got excited.
    But reality hit and know the dev's won't put any effort in bards again.
     
  47. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    My bards own UO. I have no idea what half the people in this thread are talking about. My bard can get all the peerless keys solo. Can solo a DF. Can kill any paragon solo. Can kill anything short of a peerless boss or similar. I can provo 2 Vanguards onto each other. Can make a champ die twice as fast as it normally would. Something new would be nice but bards havn't been given any attention because of their awesome power. Either some people don't know how to play them, they are greedy or they want to solo peerless like sampire.

    That's not to say they should be able to hold instruments or play different tunes or something. All those suggestions are great but how can we expect to see additions for barding when these people can't even tell us what the hell is going on with upcoming expansion or overdue patches?