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Non-Samurai Warrior Templates: A Dying Breed

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by GalenKnighthawke, May 17, 2009.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    It seems that most of the thread on this board involve "Sampires" or "Wammys." Of the remaining posts, most involve some kind of non-necro Samurai.

    So let me ask.....Are non-Samurai Warriors a dying breed?

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    I don't know if they're a dying breed, I just think the more specialized templates get discussed here more often due to them having pretty specific needs that result in more questions. I just created a sampire, but I have two very traditional paladin builds on two different shards.
     
  3. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Depends who you ask really. Chivalry warriors, aka paladin's still have their place in my book. While they aren't put into a class called paladin and made up of skills to be a meat shield like they are in FFXI or Lineage II, they are just as effective. I've tanked many things on my chivvy warrior and frankly I love it.

    Sampires or Wammys as you put it, aren't effective for PvP. Chivalry warrior or paladin still holds its place in the PvP realm. You can still solo Doom on a Chiv warrior and can still do many a thing. Frankly in my opinion, I think they will always hold their sacred spot.
     
  4. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    I have honestly never seen a straight up paladin warrior PvPing in fel.
     
  5. GFY

    GFY Guest

    I have friends that play Paladin warriors regularly. The ability to cross heal is what separates a Paladin from a Sampire. A Sammie can't heal someone else as effectively as a Paladin. If you travel in groups and like to heal your friends a Paladin may be better for you then a Sampire.
     
  6. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    It seems so.

    I have used a peace pally archer recently with some success and also chivalry with complex templates ( tamer/archer, thief/bard/archer, necro/weave/bard, etc) that lack space for Bushido and are not as oriented towards melee damage.

    The problem is that the advantages of Bushido are so great, even with archery, that any optimized template will wind up prioritizing it.

    I think based on its 'no-brainerness' an argument is extant that Bushido is overpowered relative to other melee and melee complement skills.
     
  7. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    That's because not many do it any more. It's either all-kill templates or a tendency to lean towards bushido or a hybrid template.

    Can hold your own if...you know what you're doing.
     
  8. Maybe before the Evasion nerf, but not any longer. It's just like Chivalry in being well suited to most warrior templates. Unlike Chivalry there's even good reason to take it to 120 too. Enough with the nerf this nerf that bull****. We've had enough of that to last until the expansion comes out.
     
  9. I use a 4/6 for pvp and can be very effective in certain situations.

    120swords
    120chiv
    120parry
    120tactics
    120resist
    105med

    (only 705 skill cap)
     
  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You do well without Healing? You PvM with it also?

    -Galen's player
     
  11. Can do although without healing its not as effective for pvm, 4casting means the heals are around 1s with 1/2sec cure and remove curses.
     
  12. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    I haven't used the exact template you have listed above, but yes a 4/6 caster is not TOO bad for PvM. It does have it's limitations like a ninjitsu warrior, but still effective for most mid-range skilled mobs.
     
  13. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    Nowhere have I suggested any nerf.

    What percentage of melee / archer templates do NOT have bushido?
     
  14. If any warrior skill needs a "nerf", its chivalry.

    Chiv shoudl be skill based and not karma based...to be able to heal 38 points with 60chiv is ridiculous(especially at less than2secs casting).

    Having said that...i would rather a "Buff" on other skills rather than a nerf on one.
     
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I find this line of argument hilarious, especially given that for most of its history, Chiv has been really rather laughed at.

    It was only after Bushido was nerfed a few times that Chivalry was suddenly seen as "over-powered." Bushido, remember, used to have such advantages as Perfection working in PvP. (That was an obscenity. If Perfection worked in PvP, so should have Enemy of One.)

    Since D&D, Paladins have been about Goodness. Hence, Karma. This is also an extremely important disadvantage of the Paladin class. I, for example, effectively cannot do the Lord Oaks spawn, because sooner or later (if only on level 4 and the champ level) I will need to lower Karma. No Oaks means no Orc Chieftain Helm replica, which is about 5m to 8m on LS. I forget what the Weald spawn drops.

    If Chiv became more skill-based it would arguably be more powerful, not less.

    Having said that, I already have GM Chiv so I wouldn't mind SOOO much them making it more skill-based (I would mind it a little I suppose).....But, one of the Chiv spells I find most useful is Holy Light, and that's also at least partly skill-based.

    Chiv's more skill-based than people realize.

    Oh, and I've never heard once of a "straight" Paladin template being able to solo, say, Dread Horn, or a Dark Father.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. Chiv is not skill based in almost anything, karma affects it all to a much greater extent. Im not arguing that Chivalry shouldnt have some affect by karma, What im saying is that a person with 60chiv and max karma will heal as effectively as a person with 120chiv and max karma.

    This is wrong on all fronts, the amount of damage healed should be based on skill level...and then a boost for karma. Curing should be solely on skill and the damage recieved the only karma based affect. Remove curse should be made skill based more than it is.

    In reality the only spell that is skill based is holy light, even that is subject to huge boosts by karma.


    To make people have to put 100chiv on there template(like they did necro) wouldn't increase its power...that argument is stupid!
     
  17. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    It is.
     
  18. Well , i havent tested in a while but i seem to remember being able to cure level 6poison everytime with only 60skill points. That doesnt seem skill based to me.
     
  19. Just because a skill is popular doesn't mean it's overpowered. By this logic Eval Int is overpowered. It's a support skill. That's it. It was balanced when they nerfed Evasion.
     
  20. Maybe you should test it again, because you can and will fail quite often with only 60 skill.
     
  21. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Hell, I still fail periodically at GM Chiv, and I know God-damned well that Galen's Karma is really high.

    -Galen's player
     
  22. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Here's what you said. You ready? Your exact words, using this nifty thing called copy and paste.

    Yes, that would make Chivalry, arguably, more powerful. And this is why.

    Currently, one's ability to combine Chivalry and Necromancy is limited in large part by Chivalry's reliance on Karma.

    And Chivalry and Necromancy in combination is extremely powerful; I know this from watching those who have tried it and carefully managed their Karma.

    Think of the following combinations.

    • Corpse Skin + Consecrate Weapon + Double Strike.

    • Wither + Holy Light (two area effects doing two different kinds of damage, one after the other).

    • Consecrate Weapon + Curse Weapon (targeting your enemy's lowest resist, and then leaching off of the potentially massive damage you do).

    That's just 3 combos, and I am a very very non-creative person when it comes to UO tactics. Imagine what a better player could do with that.

    Immediately after the Sampire nerf, when they made it so you actually had to maintain the skill in order to maintain the form you got from the skill, there were almost immediately cries to nerf Necro-Paladins. Soon people realized that Sampires were still viable, just in altered form, and the nerf cries stopped for Necro-Paladins.....But if Sampires had never regained their former favor?

    And that's with Karma-based Chiv. Now, imagine Necro-Paladins without the Karma requirement.

    And let me also point out that not losing Karma can be way more difficult than it seems. It means you can't kill Grobu, which means you have a hard time killing Lurg. It means you can't ever cast a Necro spell. It effectively means you can't work the Oaks spawn because the 4th level and the Champ level you can't work without losing Karma. It means you can't help kill the Cu Sidhe that wandered over and is trashing your party's Necromancer. Not unless you want your effectiveness diminished.

    Removing the Karma-based aspect of Chiv would greatly broaden the scope of what Paladins could do in-game. And yes, that means making them more powerful, because you've removed an important disadvantage.

    Let me quote you again.

    Now, I for one would not object if Chiv became more skill-based than it is. Like I said, I already find plenty of reasons to have GM Chivalry. Of course there's always the fear that they'll make it so you basically need 110 or more Chiv! And there's already too many skills for which GM just seems too low, they don't need to add to it.

    But I wouldn't protest if they wanted to make Chiv more skill-based than it is, at least somewhat.

    But if they wanted to make it so that:

    like you said, that's opening a very nasty Pandora's box.

    -Galen's player
     
  23. Youve not completely missed the point...maybe i didnt explain it properly

    Necro..Skill based, karma dependant

    Chiv...Karma based

    What should happen is that chiv should be skill based and karma dependant.
     
  24. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    I read the recent posts, but...what are you wanting as far as skill based? Most chivalry spells you can fail on unless you have descent skill. That said...most aren't effective spells for PvP. You do have a couple spells but then again...you are using chivalry as one of your centerpieces to your template by having 105 chivalry. Good or bad? I can't say really. As far as less people using these templates...yes. Are they still effective? Yes they are. It's not the flavor of the week hence...less people doing it.

    Evasion was adjusted and rightly so. Personally I think chivalry is fine. There is hardly a lick of it that is good for PvP purposes. I really don't find bushido to be overpowered either. I think in my opinion, there is good balance. After all, only chivalry and bushido have 2 or 3 spells each that are of use in PvP.

    I agree with Galen though. If chivalry was not tied into the concept of karma, yeah it could possibly be pretty powerful. I don't think it should be tied into skill points necessarily. Then in terms of healing, you could be doing a close wounds for 55 or 60 HP. Since if you think about it...the amount healed on a magery template is equal to the level of your magery skill. The higher your magery skill, the more you heal for.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Let me quote you again.

    Now let me quote what you just said:

    Complete contradiction. I didn't miss your point; you abruptly changed your mind.

    -Galen's player
     
  26. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Inspector - Galen isn't disagreeing with you, its Galen's player that disagrees.

    Just wanted to clarify that.

    - Lynk, Tank, Pixel, Ressurection, Klank, E Feazzy, Costello, Yoshio Ogata, SkullCrusher, Connor McManus, Lunchbox, Crak Hunter, Onyxia, and Soultaker's Player
     
  27. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Back to the topic of the post. I run a couple non-bushido dexers.

    The first is a swords/archer/poisoner, the second is a Necro/LJ Axer.

    The issue, at least in PvP, is survivability. PvP these days consists of speedhacking moving shot archers or dismounts with greater drags/dread mares.

    When there are somewhat even numbers on I'll jump on one of these guys, but I will never play these two builds if I'm outnumbered in any way.