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Not another whine about pets and PvP... sorta

Discussion in 'UHall' started by o2bavr6, Sep 21, 2009.

  1. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    This is not a post about how pets may or may not be overpowered in PvP. What it is about is the following:

    Why is it that if I attack someone in Fel it will put me in flee of battle for two minutes to where I cant recall, gate or enter a house, yet when someone sicks their pet on me, making the pet the aggressor, they can summon their pet back by using a pet summon bag or save their pet by logging out?

    Am I the only one that thinks pets should have to follow the same rules in PvP as players?

    Am I the only one who thinks this is HUGELY obvious?

    Devs: Anyone care to comment on why tamers pets don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else?
     
  2. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    So it seems I'm the only one who feels this way.

    Can anyone post as to how my logic is wrong to educate me?
     
  3. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    You can't have stealth tamer PKers losing their pets. That's just crazy talk.
     
  4. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I know you are being facetious!!

    But for those who would take you literally. So you don't think that pets should fall under the same rules as players?

    If they weren't the aggressor they would have nothing to worry about, just like every other player.
     
  5. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Archive some of my old posts/replies bud :(

    I have been saying the same thing forever.

    Pets need to be just as accountable as owners when it relates to Pvp.

    I have even gone so far as to correctly point out that as it stands you can fight the good fight 1 vs 2(you versus the Tamer & his pet)and be lucky or skilled enough to finally kill the Tamer only to have the pet finish you off AFTER the Tamer is dead. I can deal with that ofc but what I can't deal with is the fact that if after the Tamer dies you are able to still fight the pet the Tamer can just poof away the pet if it looks like it is in any danger at all!
    If the pet can kill me after the Tamer dies then I should have the same chance to kill the pet.

    A farking dead player/Tamer should have absolutely no ability to command or influence a pet as it relates to Pvp.

    If you read my previos posts/replies on pets you will realize that I personally have never had issues with the power or strength of the pet itself. I have more then once defended Greater Dragons in pvp and I have never even played a Pvp Tamer.
    I just want the chance to be able to fight the pet fairly if the Tamer dies or runs off.

    Bottom line is that petballs or logout keystrokes should not be all powerful Pvp tactics and as things stand now they are.

    Paece :)
     
  6. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Goldy, you have a great way with words!!

    I have wondered the exact same thing, and figured I was the only one who thought the system is messed up.
     
  7. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    I would find another dead horse to beat. The developers I am glad to say have thicker skin then people who get upset because they lose to a tamer that can easily be defeated by a good bard or archer template with invis pots.

    Developers are not going to do much to weaken tamers. The Greater Drag nerf was more of a fix of one rounding people at times which should never be the case and now they are fine. Just bring a bard or fix your template to take on tamers and you will do fine. Just do not get upset because a tamer gets a lucky kill on you every now and then.
     
  8. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    I doubt the Greater Dragon nerf is even working. I was killing some ratmen in Caverns of The Discarded, 140 damage breath to 21% fire resist and a bleed right after that.
     
  9. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    This has nothing to do with the damage tamers do, or winning or losing to a tamer.

    It has to do with the fact that a tamers pet does not have to follow the same rules in PvP that everyone else does.

    Why would you think that is ok?

    Did you read Goldy's post?

    If the tamer kills me, great... good for him/her. I the tamers pet kills me, great... good for him/her.

    But if I kill the tamer, why should he be able to log out to save his pet, IF he was the aggressor?
     
  10. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    Yes you are right. I did not really speak about the topic someone mentioned about being able to summon pets away. For a tamer with vet skills that is not really an issue anyhow. Having to spend hours finding a pet is why they did that. So people would not lose tames anymore.

    Its the way the game has developed. Pets have always been an extension of the tamer as our weapon. I understand that its not a weapon in your hand that you cannot lose so that is not really a good comparison but the point is that it's in the game. Its been that way for three ish years. You just have to learn to adapt in the game. You just have to learn to adapt the same as everyone else.

    You have the same abilities to have a tamer as everyone else had. If this ability was limited to just a select few I would agree with you but the fact this power can also be yours makes it pointless.

    Until comes a time that something can no longer be obtained but a select few then maybe a game mechanic might need tweaking but as long as everyone can have a tamer with the same power makes pvp balanced. Unbalanced pvp is when no one else can be a tamer ultimately.
     
  11. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I don't want to argue with you, but it seems you are looking at this with blinders on.

    Word of Death when it came out was "part of the game" yet it was determined to be overpowered... which it was.

    The difference here is, I don't care how much damage a dragon does (well I do, but that's a diff argument) I just want the tamers and their pets to have to follow the sme PvP rules that everyone else has to adhere to.

    You don't rebut with facts or good reasons as to why it shouldn't change, other than "this is how it is" or "make a tamer".
     
  12. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Would you feel better about my proposed change, if pets did not lose stats or skills upon death?

    Because I do think that if they changed the pets to follow the same aggressor rules as players, which means the pet will probably die, the pet should not lose stats or skills. Why penalize a player and his pet because he likes to PvP.
     
  13. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    For years after pet bonding came if you ressed a pet it lost 1% of skills anyhow. I just went with the punches back then and retraining a pet is not really hard now. .1 skill loss per death is acceptable imo as a tamer. There should be penalties for death. If I have one issue with UO is that death is meaningless. I would accept a change to the system where you could pay a stable npc to summon your pet to you and remove logging off removing pets from the battle.
     
  14. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    People have been exploiting the log out to save a pet system since it was introduced. If im not mistaken they put it in because every noob was complaining and paging gms because they couldnt find thier pet after they died. For crying out loud tamers already have pet balls they can use. I think the log out a pet "feature" should be completely removed from the game. Let a tamer go get ressed and have to use thier pet ball to retrieve a lost pet. I also feel faction players should not be able to res thier warhorses without the vet skill. Why should a faction guy fighting a non faction guy have the advantage of being able to res his mount in the middle of a fight? Its not as tho there arent a ton of tamers in each faction that can res pets as it is. Half the fun of pvp is killing a guys pet after you kill em. That whole element to pvp has been almost completely removed.
     
  15. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    This reply should be made sticky as a reminder of just how obtuse some people can be.

    Until I read this reply I wouldnt have believed that someone who obviously has the ability to read & type English could be so amazingly clueless.

    Point: An "aggressive" Tamer having the ability to shield his pet from ANY & ALL harm just by clicking a logout key is 100% wrong. Surely this is bad enough but can you imagine how much stupider this would be if it was able to also be done while the Tamer was DEAD!??

    1) Having been wrong for a long period of time does not make it balanced or okay
    2) The fact that anyone can abuse this ridiculous flaw in game mechanics does not make it balanced or okay
    3) Idiot Tamers losing their pets in the past does not make it balanced or okay
    4) Having spent long hours on the shortbus in the past does not make it okay to post like a biased Motard

    Peace :)
     
  16. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Goldy I just couldn't find it in myself to even respond to his posts anymore. I guess the old saying is true... you can lead a horse to water...
     
  17. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Why take the time to lead a horse to water. Just run to the water, log out and back in and poof, there is your horse. :)
     
  18. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    It works. It was mostly a pvp nerf. But if you want to see the difference you have to solo something harder like dreadhorn or anything with extremly high hit points maybe 10k+ But you had to have done it many times before to notice the difference between then and now. As it's a time over damage nerf and not just a instant damage nerf.
     
  19. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I can't speak for anyone else, but here are a couple of thoughts I have on this issue:

    - After a few years of playing a tamer, I don't give a darn if the pet dies and loses skill points. When I first started playing one, yes it was upsetting because I didn't realize how quickly they can be retrained and I thought it was a bit of a status thing to have a fully trained pet. Now I simply don't care enough about having perfectly trained skills on a pet to let it bug me if they've dropped. About the only skill that losing points in annoys me just a bit is healing on a cu sidhe. But with new mobs in the game to train pets on, maybe even that training has become simpler or at least faster.

    - I rarely use a pet summoning ball anymore because I swap out pets too often and often forget until it's "too late" that I didn't link up a pet to the summoning ball. They also weigh too much. In addition, they don't work in many of the places that you can't recall or gate to directly. (I believe they don't work inside a faction stronghold or at a Fel champ spawn until you reach the last level? They definitely don't work in Ilshenar, the Abyss, the Underworld, or in the Tomb of Kings. They seem to work inside Fel dungeons, but not sure about at the champ spawn areas. They also work in T2A, but again not sure about at the champ spawn areas.)

    - What is annoying about dying while you have a pet out IF you don't log out to bring it back to you is trying to get to it while you're basically defenseless. I try very hard to avoid logging out because then you have to go grab everyone's bars all over again if you're hunting in a group. But if you're doing something like a champ spawn in Fel and you're rezzed on one side of things and your pet's clear on the other side with multiple screens of spawn in between and pet summoning ball doesn't work (I don't think it works until you're on the last level?), you almost don't have a choice for getting your "weapon" back but to log out and back in again.

    Something that might be worth considering as a change is being able to command your pet to follow you while you're a ghost. You wouldn't be able to give it any other commands and it would truly be in "follow" mode so it wouldn't defend itself if attacked and thus would be easy to kill if someone wanted to make sure it died along with its owner. But then when you get rezzed, just like other players, you would have your "weapon" close at hand, even if it was dead and also needed to be rezzed.

    Maybe this suggestion doesn't make sense or needs massaging, but I wonder if it could be a good compromise for the situation the OP is concerned about and also addresses the fear many tamers have of being hit by a weird bug and losing a pet that they've invested a lot of time into training simply because it wandered far afield while their character was dead. Keep the coding to auto stable a pet if you are disconnected while a ghost, but perhaps eliminate the ability to log out and pull a pet to you while alive. With the pet command changes that went in a year or so ago, pets DO follow much better than they used to and can be dragged through spawn if you have a clue what the heck you're doing and are careful to not cut too many corners and get them hung up.
     
  20. pgcd

    pgcd Guest

    Yes, please. Have pets stop everything they're doing and just autofollow your ghost, that would solve quite a lot of problems - especially my problem with my bipolar swamp dragon, who's convinced that whatever killed me is gonna be an easy prey for him, and if it isn't, well, life sucks anyway. Or something like that.
     
  21. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I would want it to be optional to have your pet follow your ghost. In some situations, I'm sure you might not want the pet providing a nice big neon sign pointing to where you went for a rez or if it's strong enough to take a beating, having it drag a parade of spawn to jump you as soon as you rez.

    Edited to add: Just in case you don't play a tamer often and needed proof that pet summoning balls don't work everywhere in the game, here are a few examples. I'll try to confirm that they also don't work in faction strongholds or at a Fel champ spawn. It's been a long time since I tried using one in a faction stronghold and finding out it didn't work and I don't make it a practice to go to a Fel champ spawn on a tamer without the pet along for the run. Will have to try it with a different type of character and see how it works. I'm still quite a PvP novice and hopefully no one minds me sticking my nose in this thread and offering a suggestion or two.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Bah... How many times this needs to be said before ppl understand this:

    Tamer=Strong against any other template except discordance archer.

    Discoarcher= weak against any other template except tamer

    Best part is, you have to use More skillpoints in music+disco then tamer has to use in taming+lore.

    You get it? Discoarcher is just pure crap against any other temp, when tamer has only 1 weakness and overpowered compared to any other temps then that...

    Man, I have Archertamer on drachenfels, magetamer on Europa, PvM Discotamer on europa I know very well how effective these temps are. Still I stick mainly with my scribeparrymage and necromage since playing a tamer makes me feel like a nublet... All kill uppss the guy died even thou he's better player then me.
     
  23. Splup

    Splup Guest

    And how wrong can you be...

    So you don't think FC 4 FCR 9 50 SDI mages were Unbalanced?

    You don't think 130 hp critical hits from samurais were unbalanced?

    You don't think instakills with Glacial staffs were unbalanced?

    You don't think instakills with word of death were unbalanced?

    I quess I could keep listing, but if you don't get the point from those you are a lost cause I quess. And no, those were not bugs, they were game mechanics. Atleast the 3 first ones, don't know about the word of death. So everyone had the abilities to make that kinda chars. I quess they should have left those ingame since they not unbalanced. Ye right...
     
  24. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Hmm... And no that since game mechanics can't be unbalanced since everyone can make the same temp, how about we remove the control slots again like it used to be. I'd love to fight agaist tamer with 10-15 WW:s/dragons again, boy those were fun days. Or not.
     
  25. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    For many years, one of the few incentives for joining factions was the ability to acquire a war horse. By requiring that you earn at least level 2 rank to be able to ride it, the war horses also helped at least a bit to ensure that someone who joined factions for a war horse also engaged in some faction fighting on a regular basis. I know when I joined factions a few years ago, faction tamers were a bit of a rarity and I rezzed and tamed quite a few lesser hiryus and swamp dragons for guildmates. You couldn't go to Trammel and have just anyone hand you a pet if you were in factions. It had to come from another character that was also in factions. And if your non-war horse pet died anywhere, it could only be rezzed by a faction tamer.

    Don't forget that Publish 60 that brought us the Stygian Abyss and Ter Mur also added another consumable to the game that anyone can use to rez their pet after it has been dead at least five minutes: Elixer of Rebirth. Alchemists craft it from 1 Medusa Blood, an empty bottle, and 3 Spider's Silk.

    In addition, every town-based stable should now also have an NPC vet that can rez any player's pet, for a charge that is based on the pet's taming requirement. Cost ranges from 0 gp to 30,000 gp. If you had a fight in or near a faction town (still no guard zone), anyone could take advantage of the NPC vet to rez their pet.
     
  26. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    The untamed one hit me for 117 the other day, after already being hit with a fs, it dropped me instantly. Woot for the nerf.
     
  27. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Tina great post.

    To those who didn't realize, I would like to say that any change I am asking for would be for Fel only.

    You definitely bring up some great points in regards to some of the downfalls of not being able to log in and out to retrieve your pet.

    I would like to see some kind of compromise.

    In Fel if a tamer is the aggressor he/she can not log out to save his/her pet.
    If the player dies too bad for the pet.

    The tamer should have to try to res up and get his pet no different than any other player who dies and has to get back to their body to retrieve all their items. (yes a pet is different than the items in your pack, but anyone who is any good at PvP knows that to truly compete you need to be loaded with every potion and petal and whatever)

    With this said, if a pet is 20 screens from its owner, the player should just be able to say "all follow me" and the pet should come directly and not be distracted by anything at all. So if it is being attacked by some player it should still move at maximum speed towards its owner.

    If your pet dies it dos not take any stat or skill loss.

    If you are not an aggressor then it is fine to log out to save or recollect your pet.

    The way I see it is: when an archer tamer dismounts you and then sicks his dragon on you, he should not be able hide and then log out to save his pet because he failed at the kill. Especially considering that the moment you are dismounted every other blue around ganks in on you as well.

    In the end this is all about PvP. EVERYONE dies in PvP, even the best die. So why shouldn't pets die as readily in PvP as players? All they would need is a res, just like a player would need a res.

    edit: And, if I cant call guards as a ghost, then why should someone be able to summon their pet as a ghost?
     
  28. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    One problem I see is having different rules between PvP and PvE. That makes it harder to balance things. That's for games like WoW, where they don't care about balance and instead go with rock/paper/scissors. UO needs to stabalize things into one set of rules, not have one set for Mondays and another for Tuesdays.

    Dragons are too much. Instead of taming a full grown Dragon, they should have players take a Dragon egg, hatch it, tame/train it, and then raise it to a lesser Dragon status first. Starting as something as strong as a bear and as it raises stats it grows into different stages. Gaining in visual size, fighting ability, then spells. If a pet Dragon in this idea dies, it should lose stats and possibly lose size and abilities too, according to the growth rules. And raising a dragon to full grown status would be a real status symbol, as would keeping it there. But this full grown status should never be as powerful as a wild Elder Dragon. It's just too much.
     
  29. Autofollow my ghost... No, I wouldn't like that. There are times when I die and get looted and want my pet to finish killing whatever attacked me so I can get my stuff back. If it is in PvP, it should be able to continue attacking the target.

    Now, if I call it off the target, then that is fine and would be very useful. But the pet should NOT stop and follow the ghost of its owner.
     
  30. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    "What is annoying about dying while you have a pet out IF you don't log out to bring it back to you is trying to get to it while you're basically defenseless. I try very hard to avoid logging out because then you have to go grab everyone's bars all over again if you're hunting in a group. But if you're doing something like a champ spawn in Fel and you're rezzed on one side of things and your pet's clear on the other side with multiple screens of spawn in between and pet summoning ball doesn't work (I don't think it works until you're on the last level?), you almost don't have a choice for getting your "weapon" back but to log out and back in again"

    You should have issues rejoining your pet in the middle of a Champ spawn. Champ spawns are meant to be wild battles full of spawn and aggressive players. There are supposed to be penalties for death inside a spawn. Just because your pet is your "weapon" does not mean that you should instantly have it at your disposal every second.
    Also, the old attempted comparison between the Tamer's pet and the Warriors weapon is quite lame.
    When an Archer-Tamer dismounts his prey with a heavy crossbow what exactly is his weapon? Certainly not the pet at that point. Pvp Tamers most certainly have more then just their pets available to them. Atlantic has a couple of very effective Mage-Tamers that use offensive spells along with para tactics to kill quite efficiently. Ofc any Tamer is quite crippled without his pet but the fact remains that the pet is not his ONLY weapon.
    Many, many Warrior templates are also crippled after death even though they still have their weapons on them. Bandy summon talismen are simply not that effective and are also quite countered by the Tamer with an Lrc suit.
    Bottom line is that in the spawn/weapon scenario you brought up the Tamer is currently 100x more effective after death then the Warrior.

    Either way IMO the fact remains that AGGRESSIVE Tamers should not be able to instantly shield their pet from any and all harm by simply clicking a logout key. And it is even more absurd that it can be done while dead. Petballs are bad enough in many Fel situations but at least they can be countered in some ways. The logout move is simply a total Trammelized joke.
     
  31. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    Sigh. So many angles I can respond to the holes in your arguement. There are so many counters to tamers it is unreal at the amount of hatred my beloved template receives. The fact is you choose to ignore the use of invisibility pots, bards, or outrunning the bloody creatures. I was with two other tamers just a few days ago with our dread horses ganking a group that ganked my bard in a champ spawn so an enemy bard joins the ranks practically destroying our pets. Tamers Have been around since day one of UO. Find a new avenue then trying to convince the devs to destroy the template which they will never do.

    If you are unwilling to take those simple steps to defeat the idiot that is the pet AI then you deserve to lose. Yes you have to bring a weaker pvp template like a bard along to fight some greater dragons but learn to adapt. I have no issue with pets going brain dead if a tamer dies but I do have problems with people trying to destroy a template that has stood the test of time and defeated the countless waves of nerf whiners.
     
  32. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Yeah, you have a point I guess. I generally try to avoid logging out at a champ spawn to get my pet, because as I indicated earlier, it means you lose everyone's bars. If I don't log out for the pet, I get rezzed, and then run like a son of a gun and area peace my way back to the pet and hope I won't die. Can't do a whole lot as a mage with so many points tied up in peacemaking and musicianship, but I try. Died so many times the other night trying to do just that to get back to the pet and the bandages without logging out that it wasn't even funny. And as a PvP mage......yeah right, my peace tamer's a true joke. Mind blast is about the only spell she can cast that does any damage with no evaluate intelligence and is not something I'd ever consider using in a PvP situation.

    Oh well. I DO TRY to avoid the gimpy stuff in the game and do things the hard but honorable way. But I guess because I play a peace tamer I'm automatically considered to be playing a gimp template so there goes any credit I might get for trying to avoid doing anything else that's lame. I don't carry potions other than for a few strength pots. Don't run scripts. Blah Blah Blah. But yes, I play one of the most hated templates in the game and I don't do very well at it either. I'm a perfect target for someone to kill and have an easy victory and insurance gold. Get rid of me and my ilk in Fel and I guess you can just fight more of your own kind and find something else to pick to pieces.

    *sigh*

    Sometimes this game I like so much just isn't worth it. Makes me feel like this too much sometimes and I hate it:

    :fight: :fight: :fight:

    Too much of that garbage in the world already. Don't really need it in a game too.
     
  33. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    There are some holes in your logic as well.

    As you said, people can bring a bard to counter the dragons, but that doesn't resolve the imbalance at hand. All it does is upset the tamer.

    Also, not trying to flame you here, but we are talking about pvp and MOST "GOOD" pvpers don't use pets... ever, let alone log into a bard. But in the end all it takes is a bard with stealth and hiding.

    I propose that bards don't have the devastating effect on pets in PvP along with not allowing aggressor pets to be saved by logging out, as well as not having pets lose and stats or skills upon death.

    In PvP most templates have some sort of balance, as example:
    Archers will usually beat an inscribe mage or necro mage. not all and not always.
    Dexers can beat archers and most mages. not all and not always.

    Tank mages can beat archers and most dexers, not all and not always.

    inscribe mages and necro mages can beat a dexer or an archer, but if disarm is involved the mage is toast unless the mage has a lot of running room. Also it helps if the mage was able to precast any spells.

    Finally there is the Bard..... oh wait we are talking about pvp so bards just dont count because they do hardly any offensive damage so to say "bring out the bard to counter the dragons" just holds no water.
     
  34. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    Your arguement holds no water as well. Archers are about the strongest pvp template you can get. Scribe parry mage has a chance against good dexxers and archers? You must have been fighting some undergeared or poorly built templates if a dexxer loses to a mage of any kind.

    A necro mage has a small chance if they can manage to keep the dexer close at hand after a spell dump but you are comparing pvp to one vs one. An archer will hands down destroy a tamer if the archer has ones ducks in a row. Pure mage templates are even weaker then tamer templates for the most part. A good mage is for support against the massive damage dealers that would be dexxer bushido's and archer bushidos and even supplimenting some spell damage. But all it would take for a tamer to beat any mage template would be weaken spam and if you use protection you are practically going to be toast to manage any fast response in damage yourself.
     
  35. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Sadly not everyone is like you Tina.

    I personally have no issues with tamers at all..... mind you I do have issues with the game developers who allow imbalances in the game.

    In the end I just want the PvP rules to apply to all when PvPing.

    I also don't like pet balls at all. You should have to walk or gate your pet everywhere. Summoning it to you once at the bottom of a dungeon is just lame. With that said, the control of pets should be much better than it is today. Meaning if you say all follow me, that is what the pet will do no matter what. It wont ever get side tracked trying to kill something that flagged on it.

    Imagine 20 tamers all with Greater Dragons in Despise. It would be almost impossible for a group to win the spawn from the tamers unless a bard was involved. This is where I have issues with this, as shown above most templates have some kind of counter, but to counter pets you have to have a useless bard. Useless in the sense of PvPing when no dragons are around.
     
  36. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    My tank mage will beat almost any archer in the game. Granted there are times that the archer will get a conc, mortal conc off before i can apple and heal, but its pretty rare. I can also disarm.

    If you dont believe me come on to test center on your uber archer and look for a blue at yew gate named Splinter and ask him to duel on yew bank roof or wrong roof and you will see just how long the archer lasts. I will kill the archer 8 out of 10 times if not more.

    edit: in fact, most archers n test will no longer attack me and this goes for most dexers as well. This does not mean I am the best at pvp and I own all, this also does not mean I will win every time, but most of the time I do win.

    edit II: btw necro mages eat me for lunch on test, so they are my counter.
     
  37. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    lolz. why dont u just **** off the factions kiddo. Faction players get to res their own horses because they get dismounted 100 times a day easily..and your horse dies about 50 of them. When your pet dies, you usually die,, and that puts faction players into stat loss. The one thing they can do is res their pet if they manage to stay alive... Faction players spend hours a day running sigs and pvping non stop.. the factions IS the only real pvp system in this game and the fact that they can res their horses doesn't give them much of an advantage over a non faction player. The element of pvp isnt removed from factions.. its really the only pvp element left in the game.... If you feel they are that much of an advantage,, grow a sack, join the factions and risk stat loss for the option to res ur own pet with out vet...

    Faction players have very little incentive to be involved with the factions... being able to res their own horse is one of the good ones. Really **** off and cry about anything else in this broken game.. faction horses are just fine the way they are.
     
  38. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not necessarily arguing for or against this. I would have to think about this more, and whatever happens, I will adjust, I always have, but your logic is flawed. When a dexxer dies he doesn't have to risk having his weapon damaged in a way that may require hours to repair it back to the strength that it was before, or a mage his spell book, or any equipment. As long the equipment is insured, and you aren't playing on Siege, then no player has any chance of losing anything.

    Now, on Siege, the picture is entirely different. In my opinion on Siege a bonded pet should count as your Siege blessed item. When you get the option to bond a pet you should get a little option box that asks you if you want this bonded pet to count as your Siege blessed item. But the situation on Siege and on regular shards is entirely different.

    The situation in UO generally is exactly as it has always been. The tamer haters won't be happy until tamers are entirely removed from the game. No nerf will ever make them happy, no matter how harsh or unjust it may be. As soon as a nerf is implemented, the tamer haters will be Johnny on the Spot begging for the next nerf.

    This is the way it always has been, and this is the way it always will be. Why don't I read as many threads about sampires that can solo any peerless or boss in the game, far faster than any tamer with a pet? There isn't a game context in which a tamer with any pet isn't a consistently weaker choice, from pvp to any pvm context. And this was the case before the most recent greater dragon nerf.
     
  39. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    Yeah I never ever get dismounted on a non faction character(whatever). Factions arties arent a huge incentive for people to join factions?(whatever) So the faction system where a large number of people mod thier clients and run the latest speedhack so that when they do get dismounted thier still nearly as fast as the mounted people chasing em is the only "real" pvp system left in place? Haha, many of these players base thier whole playstyle on being able to illegitimately run faster than thier opponents. Is this only in factions? Of course not its rampant everywhere in Fel but I for one dont want to be put in stat by some kid that bounces all over the place(mostly off my screen) but comes back for additional dice rolls because of the speed advantage. People speedhacking right into the house is the leetest form of pvp in uo? Hardly. Factions has become who has the best speedhack and run at all costs to avoid stat whether its right into house or right off screen. 99 percent of the templates are trash archers speeding off for the repeat dice roll. Fast tamers dexers or mages with ninja so that once you dismount thier speeding asses they can get by on foot long enough with those leet speed proggies and then just ninja for away after the dismount timer expires. You cry about people wanting the faction pet res thing to go away but that is simply because its your advantage. You havent supplied a single legit reason as to why u should be able to a faction horse.
     
  40. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    I didn't read the whole thread, so if this has been said... good on ya. I propose applying the heat of battle thing to pets. So if a pet is commanded to attack another player it can't be reclaimed until the timer has worn off. This way pvmers don't get affected, and therefore won't care, and stealth tamers get a swat with the bat.
     
  41. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    The main problem, and reason its being discussed, is stealth tamers. However, a good idea IMO. ^^
     
  42. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    And what do you call those things in the tamers hand that was used to dismount you before they said "all kill"? I call it a heavy xbow.. do you not consider that a weapon?
     
  43. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Can an archer hit someone while hidden and remain hidden? no
    Can an dexer hit someone while hidden and remain hidden? no
    Can an mage hit someone while hidden and remain hidden? no

    Can a stealth tamer hit someone with their dragon while hidden and remain hidden? Yes
     
  44. Kiljaedon

    Kiljaedon Guest

    I guess this will be my last post on the subject but talking about balance is a stupid concept in itself. It is neigh impossible to have balance in such an open ended skill based game. WoD archers was capable of one hitting people at one point. Mace warriors was capable of one rounding people at one point. Vanquish xbow using mages rocked at one point too. The only way you can have supposed player balance is one skill and one heal template that everyone has. Even then people will whine about something.

    Tamers have been a huge part of UO pvp and pve. It will continue to be and those who hate tamers will continue to hate them. Maybe someone wants to have a one key I win button. Maybe someone does not want to have to use 30+ macros just to compete. Tamers are easy to learn and do well even with crappy gear. Eventually the pets will get a hold of someone. As long as tamers are in the game I will enjoy them and continue to use my dreadsteed, baked kitsune, rune beetle, and greater dragon to eat my foes and relish every moment of it. Playing a tamer does not make me any less skilled then someone else. It is just perception of people who want certain rules to give them the best advantage. You have the power to make a tamer or an anti taming template yourself.

    The fact that everyone can make any overpowered template or underpowered template is ones own choice. As long as that power to create x template or Y template is part of UO then the power of balance is ultimately in the players hands.
     
  45. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    You seem to be confusing playing in Tram and PvP
     
  46. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    That isn't their primary source of damage. There are tradeoffs with any template. You take one skill, that means you can't take another skill. That is as true of tamers as it is anyone. Yes I can be an archer/tamer, but a dexxer can be be a bushido/dexxer, or a mage/dexxer, or a mage can be a spellweaver/mage. I'm sure you get the picture. Any decent combat template will have multiple options for damage.

    You see, I can play that game as well.

    Does a dexxer's primary source of damage move much slower than a character on foot? no
    Can a tamer control precisely the timing and type of attack that is made by their pet? no (every other template can and does, and you know as well as I do that the a.i. doesn't make anywhere near as smart choices as a skilled player does)
    Does a dexxer's primary source of damage get stuck on trees and the corners of buildings? no

    And I could go on, as could you, and it would all be equally pointless. They are different templates, but the true kicker for me is the following. You take a tamer and just about any other pvp template, with equal player skill, and I won't put my money on the tamer, no matter what pet they have, and the same applies in pvm.
     
  47. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    This does not excuse the fact that pets should have to follow the same rules as players in PvP. I cant attack a tamer and then recall away, so why should a tamer be able to attack me and then recall his dragon away?
     
  48. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) Every other template precisely controls timing & attack? I guess your dexxer has never whiffed or failed to execute a special? Thats funny

    2) The footspeed of pets is such a flawed argument I am shocked you would even bring it up. Footspeed of pets is only ever mentioned/valid when it concerns pets chasing a player. How is that a concern or issue for the Tamer? If on the other hand though I am chasing a pet and about to kill it, what happens? Uhhh, the Tamer just uses a petball or even worse simply hits logout and the pet is saved. Please spare us all the footspeed nonsense. Your overpowered pet with a billion hitpoints isnt the fastest thing on the screen and thats a disadvantage or balance lol?

    3) This thread has never been about player skill vs player skill. It is simply about the fact that it is 100% dead wrong that an AGGRESSIVE Tamer can use his pet to kill and at the same time shield it from ALL harm by simply logging out. It is beyond ludicrous and anyone that can't understand or admit that is either obtuse or extremely biased.
     
  49. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As I said other times, a long time ago, this discussion is rarely about fairness, or game balance, it's about the fact that tamers annoy you, and you don't want to ever lose to them, no matter how skilled, or intelligent they are. And if you are like many of the tamer haters I've seen post, you don't even want to lose if you are outnumbered ten to one by tamers, you simply want tamers out of the game, period.

    I believe I said "timing and type of attack". Your little straw man argument doesn't touch that statement. The fact is that a pet is governed just as much by the random number generator as a player, when it comes to hit chance and damage, and on top of that it's attacks are almost completely random. They are just as likely to cast curse followed by weaken, as they are to cast explosion followed by flamestrike (on someone with a 70 fire resistance, and a 50 cold resistance and no resistance debuffs).

    And I fail to comprehend how you can see that is a "flawed argument". If you know as much about pvp as you seem to think you know, you would know that in pvp, mobility is king. It isn't just about "pets chasing a player", and if you don't know that you really need to stop pvp'ing on the forums so much and actually get out there and gain some real pvp experience...

    I've already addressed that. I'll try to spell it out so that you can understand it. If a tamer's pet dies it loses stats. It may not be much, but if you know anything about the game you would realize that the difference between a skill at 99.9 and 100 is actually significant. Beyond that, it doesn't take too many pet deaths before your pet skills are suddenly at 96.3, or 94.8. And this stat loss applies to every skill the pet has.

    If you know anything about taming you would realize that training a skill like magery on a pet, from 99.9 to 100, can take as much as an hour or two. There is no other template in the game that requires any form of retraining after a death. The only thing comparable is stat loss in factions, but that applies to players, not their equipment, and it applies just as much to tamers as it does any other template, so there isn't really much of an argument to be made for fairness there either.

    The truth is Goldberg, that you simply don't like tamers, and you don't want them in pvp, period (and very likely you want them out of the game altogether). You are still singing the same songs you were singing a year and a half ago when I stopped visiting the forums. Your arguments and the points you make rarely have anything to do with fairness, balance, or logic of any sort, as is evidenced by your arguments in this thread, and everything to do with the simple fact that you don't like tamers.

    This thread is just another, thinly veiled, "I hate tamers" thread. o2bavr6 was excited by the thought that he might have discovered a logically unassailable way to attack tamers. The truth is he hasn't, and I am simply pointing that out. Having said that, I really don't know what I think of the idea. I'd have to think about it more. But the issues isn't as clear cut and simple as you and o2bavr6 would like everyone to think that it is. As is most often the case, there is an opposing argument to be made.

    You say that pets don't "follow the rules". Fine. I have no problem with making them follow all of the rules that players follow. Make them follow all the flagging rules, spell casting rules and line of sight rules. Give the player full control over all of their attacks, spells and abilities (whether directly or the ability to customize or "train", combat behaviour in some way), and make them move as fast as a player. It would make playing a pvp tamer more challenging and fun, and frankly, I think it would give you a whole lot more to complain about.
     
  50. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Bull****!

    I use a dreadmare bush tamer in PvP alot, when he dies, within about 10minutes of fighting he is back to 7xgm and Thats PvP so hes not even fighting flat out for 10mins!

    On these stupid flagging issues, why is it that if a blue flags on me...i dismount him with a no-dachi, i can be guardwhacked because his pet wasn't flagged!

    Now thats a stupid ****ed up rule!