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Odds of getting the dev's drunk enough to add Mark to chivalry?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Merv DeGriff, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. Merv DeGriff

    Merv DeGriff Guest

    So I dusted off my pally and had a fun go with him... and I realized one thing that was missing from chivalry that really annoyed me without being very obvious at first.

    He can recall using sacred journey, but he can't mark his own runes...

    How did chivalry end up with only half of the equation?

    :wall:

    Can we feed Chrissy, Draconi, SupreamEA, and the rest a lot of sake until they add mark to chivalry?

    Heck make it 70, 80, or 90 skill for all I care... but add it.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    A skill dependent on another skill? Shocking!
     
  3. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Would be easier to just remove Sacred Journey (seriously.. much easier to deny access to an existing spell than to create an entirely new one), and then you wouldn't have it to complain about. Besides classic mages, only Paladins have a travel spell.. kinda not balanced there. Of course, there's little balance overall in any of the spells added since AoS anyway.
     
  4. Pindershot

    Pindershot Guest

    Although I love the flexibility provided by Sacred Journey, I can't think of any fantasy setting where Paladins could teleport.

    Recall and Mark have always seemed to me to be in the domain of the mage. Necromancers would make sense also.
     
  5. why why why a bard could have the ablity to set up oncore's or repeat preformance it would not be hard to make it so every skill set could have more "spells" i doubt anyone would delete thier mage if it was to happen
     
  6. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I can't either, but I also cannot think of a setting where a smith or tailor could either (runebooks, recall scrolls).

    Leave Mark as a Magery spell and only a Magery spell. It is fine the way it is now. If you need a rune marked, just ask someone or mark it yourself with a mage. You could also use Mark Scrolls. Scrolls cast as if they were 2 spell circles lower than the spell (so a Mark Scroll would cast as a 4th circle spell). With 30.0 Magery you will have a 15% chance to cast a 4th circle spell. That is good enough to mark runes yourself, with a few tries (1 out of 7 casts attempts). Since a scroll does not get used on a failure, you don't lose it.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  7. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    I'd rather they lowered the requirement for using a Mark scroll a bit. But then, ah screw it, I guess I'll just make a mage character.
     
  8. Pindershot

    Pindershot Guest

    Yes, that's a great idea. Maybe an "exceptional" attribute on the scroll, allowing anyone to use it.
     
  9. Merv DeGriff

    Merv DeGriff Guest

    Who said Chivalry was strictly a paladin thing?

    By the same token you go to Luna and see "Holy Mages" (translation: cleric) and we won't even get into some of things that implies.

    As for the "just take magery" why should you rely on one skill for travel needs? I don't see melee being reduced to "hit stuff" and magic in UO has long since split into different varieties. By that logic then, all of the skills necromancy and spell weaving should have mark and recall. (I'm ok with that, my weaver could use it.)

    From a game balance perspective, how is this harmful? It's a quality of life improvement, but not a massive DPS buff or anything that affects pvm or pve combat. The skill came with the teleport ability, but was missing the first part in the chain of events to make it functional.

    (sarcasm&humor)
    Wait... you found a way to kill with marked runes did you!
    (/sarcasm&humor)

    Oh well, as you can see I'm tired and a tad bored... I guess I can add more people to the "needs more sake" list.
     
  10. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    30.0 skill is all you need for a 15% chance using a scroll. You can buy more than that from guildmasters in the mage shops and you can buy 40.0 skill (giving you a 40% chance of casting) from the guy in New Haven (unless you are on Siege, then you can't buy squat). This is easy to get with items, if you don't want to buy it. A ring, bracelet, and spell book can bring you to 42 (+15, +15, +12). You can get more with other items and artifacts if you want.

    If they lowered Mark to 5th circle, then the Human JOAT ablility would give you a 25% chance to cast the spell from a scroll. That is too much ability for the Human JOAT to have.

    Here is the where you can find the information on casting success: Magery
    Here is where you can find information on casting spells from scrolls: Inscription

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  11. Just wanted to add that wraith form allows necros 100% recall chance. Just need the regs or lrc.
     
  12. Pindershot

    Pindershot Guest

    Damn, forgot about jewelry. Based on that, Mark works perfectly as-is.
     
  13. Again why make a necro use a mage spell free or not why why why not etheral winds for a necro travel spell OMG they are masters of death and stuff heaven forbid they be allowed to travel
     
  14. Maximilliean

    Maximilliean Guest

    well if they added slings or let you throw them like you can bolas you could.
     
  15. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    My miner would love it! I'd like to see the same spell added to both necro and chiv. Only make the success rate highly dependant on karma as well as skill.
     
  16. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    odds: 0

    It's left that way so paladins aren't mages with pointy sticks and holy attitude.

    I'd say chivalry has plenty for it, but like most side skills it isn't supposed to be an complete replacement for others.

    :next:
     
  17. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    One would think a "Rune Carving Knife" would carve runes.
     
  18. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Would be easier to just remove Sacred Journey (seriously.. much easier to deny access to an existing spell than to create an entirely new one), and then you wouldn't have it to complain about. Besides classic mages, only Paladins have a travel spell.. kinda not balanced there. Of course, there's little balance overall in any of the spells added since AoS anyway.

    Sure, as soon as they take away Recall from Mages as well.
     
  19. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    They did on Siege.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  20. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Much like most other threads, this isn't about Siege.
     
  21. Olahorand

    Olahorand Slightly Crazed
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    I agree, that there should possibilities to allow each char skill independend marking.
    Often enough it happens, that one of my non mage chars passes an interesting place and I have not only to remember how to get there, but send some other char to the same location just for marking.
    Interaction with other players may not always be possible (empty shards, playing outside of the core time) or wanted (that just spotted random IDOC I'd like to keep as secret as possible).
    Maybe with an enchanted rune, which could be precharged by mages or by combining a mark scroll and a rune with some kind of glue?
    *Salute*
    Olahorand
     
  22. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    but siege offers a great example. one of the biggest reasons there is no immersion anymore for anyone is that nobody has to see anything. we can all afford to travel cheaply and quickly. I remember a long time ago when I was very sparing with my runebooks because recalls were expensive and it was cheaper to run somewhere instead of wasteful.
     
  23. And you would trade your car for a horse and buggy ?
     
  24. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    While it doesnt hurt to add Mark spell to chiv (and call it something silly like Honor Reconition), I would pick up chiv on MOST of my characters.

    The low skill requirement, no need to carry regs and the superior functionalities of Chiv... asking for more (especially making other skill less useful) is the last thing I would do.

    Otherwise Chiv needs Gating spells too because mages can recall. Chiv also needs Energy Vortex and Summon Deamon because paladin can dispel like mages. There's no reason why pally can get rid of summons like mages but not know how to cast them. Chiv also needs reactive armor and magic reflection because paladin can buff too. Oh yea chiv needs teleport for SURE because Paladin can recall like mages no reason why they shouldnt be able to cast teleport. There's also needs to be a Greater Close Wound, Cleanse by Flame (arch cure), Greater Bless, Holy Resistance (protection)... also Holy Bolt that works like EBolt (because just like mages pally can cast AoE dmg too therefore pally should know how to single target nuke as well) and so on... I can extend this (logic) to most skill/spells no little problem.

    Oh yes they are all logical, but not reasonable.
     
  25. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    Ahh indeed.
    I did go with the "40.0 magery from Haven" route earlier on, but felt stranded after lowering it back to 0.0 due to the skill cap.
    Accessories that is, then.

    I'd like to see them do a bit more for the JoAT ability though. I heard it is good for PvP (which I don't know since I'm what they called a Trammie), but my impression right now is that elves are the ones getting all the love, thus my suggestion on lowering the requirement for Mark.
    My opinion might change though, I've just come back to the game after a 4-year absence afterall.
     
  26. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    I would love it if they gave chiv mark spell but only if it was 120 skill needed
    Might be able to move them 120 scrolls hehe though probably not
     
  27. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    yes pallys need mark and gate spells. Maybe SJ could have two conditions to choose either mark or gate.
     
  28. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    yes pallys need mark and gate spells. Maybe SJ could have two conditions to choose either recall or gate.
     
  29. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Just providing information about the Sacred Journey and Recall (the spells you mentioned) and their limitations in the game. They don't work on Siege Perilous, as was intended. I am sorry you took offense.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  30. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Chances are you are not going to be marking dozens of runebooks with your paladin, so some supplemental jewelry will be just fine. Mark your favorite spots. I have found the following rune locations to be very useful: bank, moongate, stable, and your house (duh :p). You can always start up a mage from the spoils of your paladin earns, if you want to build an extensive library.

    JOAT gives you an effective 20 in all skills (though it does not show in your skill menu). It's a pretty useful trait already, I think anymore and it will become too much. As for it's benefit in PvP, I don't know the specific benefits of it per template.

    Welcome back to UO!!!!

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  31. Merv DeGriff

    Merv DeGriff Guest

    I like your straw man...

    However, the logic wasn't because magery can do it. The logic was they were given the recall mechanic, but not the ability to implement it. You cannot recall without a marked rune. So, baring finding a mage to mark the rune first, the chivalry user cannot make use of the skill he was given.

    The only spell in there that should require running to another player is noble sacrifice, because it is for affecting other players.

    As for gate, that's straight out. It's not a requisite for getting the first mechanic to work, and nukes fall to the wayside as well as the spells used by chivalry are fully functional actions within themselves. As a result, this is the only paladin skill that could hold up to the logic.

    Just place the mark spell at or near GM to keep the people who only carry enough chivalry for the melee spells from marking, giving an incentive to GM the skill.

    Heck, I'd just be happy with an explanation of some of the logic from the folks who made the decision. (Not likely, but meh?) I'm tickled pink with the rest of it and it's made melee fun for me again after lord knows how long.
     
  32. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    There wasn't any offense taken (other than the "Siege has this" stuff does get tiresome). Just that you missed the point of the statement, which was that I would accept the removal of a spell from Chivalry if and only if they removed the same spell from Magery. Basically, I'm calling out the hypocracy.

    I would be all for making any Mark type spell in Chiv require a high Chiv level to cast (GM+) simply because it would help round out the skill and give people a reason to raise the skill beyond the secondary levels people use now.

    I know Siege has its own ruleset, but since I do not play there (and haven't in YEARS... I did for a while when it first started both pre-ROT as Siege Test, then after the wipe as Siege, but left after burning myself out on the shard building up for a house and falling behind my guildmates who were there since Melee skills were on a strict RoT setting from the start and thus lagged well far behind the Magery users), I do not make my arguments based on the ruleset on SIege, but the rulesets I play in on the standard shards.

    Hope that clears it up some :)
     
  33. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    So, I skimmed through the whole thread and didn't see anyone step in and let you all in on a secret... (because it seems a lot of you don't know... )

    Necromancy and Spellweaving both have a way to access a travel spell... you just have to know how to do it.

    If you are in wraith form or reaper form... you will never fizzle recall... even with 0 magery. (Casting it regularly... not talking about using a recall scroll here.)

    There... now enjoy.

    **runs off to add to UO Tips thread**

    noobs.
     
  34. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Or with 100 Tinkering you could build a giant sling shot with a 80% Chance of Death upon impact.
     
  35. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    I'd take those odds.
     
  36. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Chivalry is fine the way it is.

    Thanks.
     
  37. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Define "whole equation".
     
  38. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Less time posting + more time playing = go play UO... nao.

    How was that? :dunce:
     
  39. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    And both of those forms would still requiring you to carry regs or wearing LRC suit. Chiv is like having all your regs blessed full time AND LRC suit STILL work for chiv.

    Should I call you a noob too for missing the most important part that only a few people using it? It's not like people dont know the methods of traveling but most people with no magery do not sport a LRC suit and few carry regs...

    But yea I guess you just "forgot" to mention it.
     
  40. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Dual (well in my case Triple) monitors... I was playing when I posted that... how's THAT for [email protected]?

    :p
     
  41. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    And both of those forms would still requiring you to carry regs or wearing LRC suit. Chiv is like having all your regs blessed full time AND LRC suit STILL work for chiv.

    Bless/Insure some Arcane clothing.
     
  42. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    If you go into forms you can also recall but necromancy dont even have a direct recall spell like chiv and necromancy even require another skill to be useful on many of their spells. They cant mark neither.

    With your logic then ok people are given the ability to drink potions but they have to bare with the game and find a alchmist and buy from them. Should everyone be given free skill to make potions? Weapons and armors from crafters could follow the same logic.

    "Heck, I'd just be happy with an explanation of some of the logic from the folks who made the decision."

    Can you answer the question yourself why necro and all other casting skills dont have the ability to mark yet they are given 100% chance to cast recall? Heck they dont even have a direct accessible recall spell like Chiv. With chiv you can even cast recall on a full run without stopping at all. Say you go to fel and ganks are coming at you, you run the other way "ON MOUNT" while casting SJ "ON THE RUN" and bam you are gone safe and sound... how about those poor necros? They cast wrath form (and put themselves "ON FOOT") then "STAND STILL" and attempt to try to cast recall and hopefully they got the regs need or are wearing arcane clothing?

    This isnt too fair either. DEV would need to answer these more serious issues... Not only they dont have a direct accessible recall method, they also need to have regs/lrc suit/arcane suit and requires to "stand still" and "on foot" to cast recall...

    Now that's your logic, please explain it to me.

    I am on the side to make games more interesting more variety. I dont even mind Chiv are turned into Magery clone and can cast nukes as long as they balance other skills too and everyones happy. More power to the players.
     
  43. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    And do Chiv need to insure/bless arcane clothings? insure their tithing points? And have tithing points capped at 1000 (about how often you need to recharge those arcane clothings)?

    Now if I can just drop regs on my spellbook and can have blessed regs in 5k a stack that dont have any weight limit then I am all for it.
     
  44. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    I thought this; when ML was still new I got the rather pricey (to me) ingredients and made a knife and was a bit disappointed it didn't act the way it should.

    Would be nice if smiths could actually make a rune carving knife with so many uses for warrior types, but I guess that would take some income away from scribe vendors selling mark scrolls.
     
  45. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    100k is the limit on tithing points, and to my knowledge, while the lower cost mods affect it, Arcane Clothing only works with Magery and gems aren't that hard to get (1 gem for 16 - 24 spells) and you already have a personal bless deed.

    Plus Chiv is a secondary/support skill whereas Magery is the main skill for its own template and the LONG TIME obvious support skill for almost every other template up until AOS (and for the most part beyond).

    Point being, you're asking for blessed reagents... well there's your answer, of if you prefer, insure that 100% LRC suit, pop on Personally Blessed Arcane Boots on top and you've effectively turned Magery into Chivalry WITHOUT the 100k limitation AND a wider spell base.

    Beyond that, personally, I'd like to see Mark as a spell in general be restricted further than it is now (all dungeons should in effect work like the ant caves in that you should be UNABLE to mark INSIDE a dungeon IMO), but by the same token, Mark (or a derivative) could be a good spell to help round out the upper end of Chivalry.
     
  46. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I don't think I missed your point, so let me put in my own words and you can tell me if I got it or not. So here it goes: The idea of removing Sacred Journey is such a radical change that would be no more widely accepted than the removal of recall from magery. So if you remove one, then remove all. So instead of upsetting most of the players, you would upset all of the players. This would be a very poor change if ever made. So how close am I? I agree with you that the generic "Siege has this" post does get tiresome to see, and it was not the intent of my post, but I have not seen many of those posts lately (they have a really thorough FAQ on the SP forum, which is probably why). I just posted what I knew about the spells, because they don't work the same on all shards.

    Making it GM level to cast will not lure people to GM Chivalry. Not when I can cast it from a scroll with little to no real skill and some items. Most people don't run enough chivalry to cast EoO 100% of the time (should equate to 95.0 skill), because they feel it is acceptable to have to cast it again if it does not work the first time.

    I am a casual Siege player, so I know enough about the shard's ruleset to include what I know when it can provide useful information. I also don't make arguements solely on the Siege ruleset (unless it is a SP specific topic). You will see that from the first posts I made on this thread about the use of scrolls, which is common across all shards. I hope you have noticed that we play on the same standard shard. :thumbsup:

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  47. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Keep a charged runebook too.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  48. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Can't argue with a lot of that. You're right on the initial portion, although it was also in the vein of "take from me as long as you're willing to take from yourself as well" that I will use quite often (because IMO it's more "greedy" to demand others sacrifice when you are unwilling to do so yourself).

    Furthermore, I've also had the opinion that we need MORE skills under the current 700-720 + items skill cap that we can use to create more specialized character templates rather than more skillpoints so we can create uber-generalists. To that end, I would like to see something done with the top end of Chiv to give people (including myself) more reason to raise Chiv past the 65 - 80 range people use now. BUt I do have to agree it would be a lot more like EoO which generally isn't needed to succeed 100% of the time, the same holds true with a Mark spell.

    Maybe throw the Mark spell in the midrange and tweak some of the existing spells up a bit? I dunno, just throwing out brainstorm thoughts here.
     
  49. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I think mark/recall/sacred journey are fine the way they are currently. I am of the mindset "instead of taking something away from 1 person, give something else to the other people".

    Yeah I know, badly disguised "nerf upwards" concept heh.



    Here's throwing out some ideas:

    1) For allowing non mages to mark - Add a item that can be used to mark runes for non-mages. Maybe exsiting items like the bracelet of binding? Or a brazier?

    2) I also support ways to make higher chiv (including GM and 120) actually desirable. Eg - scale EoO based on chiv skill. 70 chiv = 70% of the current EoO damage increase. 120 chiv = 120% of the current EoO damage increase. With a 10% bonus at GM+

    3) This one has been suggested before too - add a couple of new spells at the higher skill levels, say a summon spell and a form changing spell :D All the other casting skills have it! Except Bushido...

    4) Regarding bushido - On 1 hand, I believe 120 bushido is already very desirable - among the casting skills, 120 bushido PS is possibly the 2nd most desirable PS after 120 magery. On the other hand, 6 spells do seem rather less...(I am not counting the non-spell abilities for the casting skills like use of mage weapon/smokebombs/better parry chances etc).
     
  50. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Hmmmmmmmm...how about the ability to add mark scrolls/charges to runebooks?