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Ok looking at stealthing - PLEASE FIX it

Discussion in 'UHall' started by weins201, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    there is no way a char with 20 from being a hummie should be able to revela a stelather with 120/120.

    Detect Hidden - When stealthing near other people or monsters there is a chance you are detected. A check is made by comparing the stealthers Stealth skill and Dexterity versus the other persons or monsters Detect Hidden skill.

    So myself with 120 Atealth and :blushing:26 Dex = totals 126 -

    now somone with 20 Skill reveals me every time when I try and walk by them even 8 tiles away PATHETTIC

    This needs a huge fix.

    :loser:
     
  2. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    If you walk next to an elf you will be revealed every time.
     
  3. Phaen Grey

    Phaen Grey Lore Master
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    100 hiding, 120 stealth 90 dex, not sure what the equation comes out to, but a wolf shouldn't be able to reveal me from 5 tiles away either, and an elf inside a building on the second floor is just ridiculous. There are some serious issues with how passive reveal works.
     
  4. peanutbutter

    peanutbutter Guest

    unfortunately, the only fix you;ll get is to stop stealthing. sorry...
     
  5. Yeah passive reveal is lame. Sorry if you have 220 skill tied up in hiding and stealthing, you shouldn't be getting revealed by anyone. Only players with a 50% chance should be those with 200 skill points tied up in detect and tracking. But all passive reveal is lame, a character class like elves shouldn't nerf my skill set. This really does need looked into and fixed correctly this time. I don't even believe tracking is fixed the way it was intended.
     
  6. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Agreed, totally.

    Luckily I found a certain way around this. Shadow Jump. Passive reveal doesn't affect Shadow Jump. So I find that I can Shadow Jump right next to anyone without being revealed. However, if I start walking after Shadow Jump I can be passively revealed.
     
  7. Smedly

    Smedly Guest

    I have GM hiding, 120 stealth & 140 dex and monsters on the floor below reveal me??? It is time they quit messing with stealthers, we spend just as much time and gold making our chars so WHY are we being singled out for continual nerfs?? as it is there are only 2 ninja skils still usefull ,shadowjump and animal form, but they screw with us more! Im starting to think maybe I should do what most of my friends have done, GET A LIFE and tell EAgames to stuff it!
     
  8. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    What we need is a few Siege players to come here, and tell us what life without passive reveal is like.
    I think it'll be something in the direction of "not awesome"
     
  9. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Let me fix what I can for you and be happy knowing it includes in so few words, so many problems:

    "Ok, looking at Ultima Online - PLEASE FIX IT"

    :sleep2:
     
  10. laurlo

    laurlo Guest

    it would be nice if it was more related to skill versus auto detect
     
  11. WWGRD?

    WWGRD? Adventurer
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    I can not imagine how you think stealth is underpowered. Remember the days of counting your steps? When every single step did a skill check? Hiding, and having to wait 10 secs to use the stealth skill? And let's not forget the detect hidden nerf making the skill have a 10 sec wait timer, if you fail the detect the stealther is on a different server by the you can use it again.

    Stealth is UO's easy button. If anything, it needs toned down. A good 50% of the latest skill nerfs have been because they were paired stealth. Death strike from archers? It wasn't the damage output from a range it was really OP because they were stealthing and popping out for cheap shots. Pet balls? Nerfed down because of stealth tamers rapid fire summoning while they were hidden.
     
  12. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Stealth in all your examples most definatly was in need of fixing and they did, But this has nothign to do with stealth being paired with ANYTHING.

    It has to do with a Passive Dectection by a Toon who devoted no time, effort, training, ANYTHING negatiging skills which without items would equal 240 skill points.

    TY for the idea on Shadow Jumping ill try that more often.
     
  13. Mr X

    Mr X Guest

    I play siege, half the shard plays a stealther of some sort. There are ways of dealing with stealthers.

    EQ, Meteor swarm, thunderstorm, conflag pots, new faction pots. Mana vamp also works well since most stealthers have no resist. No mana no smoke bomb. Necros like using revs and poison strike.
     
  14. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    As far as Stealthing goes I have been saying it needs fixed for ages..... 220 skill is not something that should be ruined by some no skill loser just cause he's orange to me.....

    I have found ANY enemy is automatically able to reveal me without any skill at all just by being an enemy.... it's just not possible to "sneak" up on them.... heck they only need walk past to reveal me while I'm standing still even!

    It's crazy and it's wrong.... heck a cat, rabbit and a dozen other tiny creatures can reveal me at 120/GM.... it's wrong.

    The system needs to be WAY more balanced. I'm soo sick and tired of getting revealed all the time. If it weren't for the fact that my characters RP is based around his ability to stealth I would have just dropped the useless skill long time ago......

    Another thing..... someone with almost no tracking shouldn't be able to track me either at 220 skill.
     
  15. peanutbutter

    peanutbutter Guest

    the fix for stealth is easy. here it goes:

    stop all the passive stuff and require all the stuff suggested above about having to have detect hidden and such, BUT...

    all attacks (not including special moves that specifically depend on stealth) performed within 2 seconds of having been hidden suffer a negative 50% hit chance. also, spells performed under the same circumstances (2 seconds) lose all fc/fcr.

    that way, thieves can operate... sneaks can have fun sneaking... but stealth gankers can't gank.

    i don't believe that anyone intended for someone to be able to pull a double-strike or mortal strike or dismount out of stealth and that's why they nerfed it. nerfing it was the right thing to do... but they nerfed it WRONG.

    instead of focusing on the specific problem and applying a clean stitch, they simply doused the wound with peroxide, killing the very flesh of the skill.

    it was a mistake. fine.

    i'm no code geek, but i can't imagine that my solution takes much more work than whatever they did to nerf it in the first place.
     
  16. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    That's not passive reveal, if you're not moving.
    You should always be vulnerable to long-shots.
    Like someone with 20 weapon skill occasionally being able to hit someone with 120.

    The problem lies with the passive check being every time you move within range of someone, or multiple people. A passive check for each person you're in range of.
    Fire off enough checks at 40/220, and one of those is going to be not in your favour.
    As it stands, that's biased against the stealther.
    But to negate it throws it completely the other way, and makes stealth too strong.
     
  17. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    It is pretty awesome, it'll add a whole new dimension to Felucca on prodo shards if it was removed. Players would need tracking and detect hidden well not all but they would be useful skills for faction players, also it would increase the risk of thieves at Champ spawns.
     
  18. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    :D
    All I recall hearing in the past is how tough it is with everyone running stealth, and no passive detect, complete with more than a few nerf calls.
    It appears I'm quite thoroughly wrong, on that score. But, at least I learned something from it ;)
     
  19. Seasseragh

    Seasseragh Guest

    120 Skill and 26 Dex? Just means you know how it should work but are too clumsy to pull it off :D
     
  20. peanutbutter

    peanutbutter Guest

    eh...

    again, i propose the way to fix auto-detect while preventing a return to calls for nerfing:

    "the fix for stealth is easy. here it goes:

    stop all the passive stuff and require all the stuff suggested above about having to have detect hidden and such, BUT...

    all attacks (not including special moves that specifically depend on stealth) performed within 2 seconds of having been hidden suffer a negative 50% hit chance. also, spells performed under the same circumstances (2 seconds) lose all fc/fcr.

    that way, thieves can operate... sneaks can have fun sneaking... but stealth gankers can't gank.

    i don't believe that anyone intended for someone to be able to pull a double-strike or mortal strike or dismount out of stealth and that's why they nerfed it. nerfing it was the right thing to do... but they nerfed it WRONG.

    instead of focusing on the specific problem and applying a clean stitch, they simply doused the wound with peroxide, killing the very flesh of the skill.

    it was a mistake. fine.

    i'm no code geek, but i can't imagine that my solution takes much more work than whatever they did to nerf it in the first place."
     
  21. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Ive been hardcore mage player all my UO life (last time I played dexer waspub16 spear fencer and old 60dmg lumber axer). Due to the faction bandages and my shard has heavy faction PvP, my necromage/tactic mage life became that much harder, so I started playing a stealth archer.

    So anyways the problem is not just me then? I have GM stealth/GM hiding with 150 dex(168 stam) I kept on getting revealed for no reason. I notice something, while stealthing around human players the auto reveal chance was pretty low. But when ever I got close to an elf, I will say about 5 tiles or so I get revealed. If I get to 2 to 3 tiles near them I get revealed almost everytime. I was thinking maybe my char was bugged or something because I asked them (who almost consistantly reveals me unintentionally) what's there detect hidden/tracking skill and they ALL told me 0/0......

    So is this a known issue? or am I doing something wrong? While I have little trouble taking any mages out 1v1 or 1v2 (thanks to my 4/6chiv 50ep and faction aids) when I get close to elf dexers I am simply revealed and what usually follows that would be a gank...
     
  22. GL_Seller

    GL_Seller Guest

    Im so tired of hearing whiners. ITS NOT 220 SKILL PNTS. It's 100. Detecting reveals hiders. Stealthing lets u walk around hidden. Its different. 120 stealth lets you walk farther and with certain armor on. You do not need stealth to hide.

    So lets see 20 passive detect thats 20% of the time. Yes it does happen more then once in a row its the rng. There have been times where u can stealth in between tons of ppl other times u get revealed. Elves have 40% passive detect. So its dbl the chance, based on 100 hiding which is what its based on.

    You want to talk about something needing fixing. How about Gm tracking or Gm Detect hidden. At gm hiding you never ever ever fail to hide. Yet at gm tracking you fail to track people all the time. Even worse is Gm Detect. It was fine that you failed back when you didnt have to wait 15 minutes to try again.
     
  23. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I rarely failed with GM tracking. Er, let me rephrase that. At 80 tracking, I think. Maybe it was 70. Reason being? I had GM detect. I never gmed tracking because having GM detect worked out just fine with 70-80 tracking. At GM detect I succeeded a lot on stealthers. Tracking and detect are fine. Maybe the radius for detect should be larger, but that is about it.
     
  24. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Bha, after having spent so much time giving ideas, sending emails and discussing the issue with devs I don't really feel like wasting my time anymore.

    Just let me state the obvious. Stealth is both overpowered and underpowered. It is underpowered for thieves, that cannot even snoop potential targets anymore, and assassins, that rely on surprise and attacks that can be done only from stealth. Instead it is overpowered for every other kind of characters, who use stealth as a cheap invis to attack the enemy again after a few seconds, or to hid in front of a person that is whacking on them.

    Stealth should be viable for surprise and escape, and underpowered in full combat. Currently it is almost the other way around (except for escape, which is reasonably balanced), which is quite sick.

    There are so many ways to fix this, some most likely of easy implementation, but I am sick to waste time on deaf ears. If devs want input on that they can say that, or send pm. I don't care much anymore.
     
  25. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Don't, unless you are stealthing on clueless people. Anytime you shadowjump you are broadcasting to each decent pvper on the whole screen "a stealther is n screen", not much differently than if you had been revealed. By stealthing you only have a CHANCE to reveal yourself, by using shadowump it's 100%... Bug or feature doesn't matter, it's been unfixed for a long time.
     
  26. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Here are a couple of noobish questions I've had about stealthing:

    - Do you have a better chance of staying hidden if your character is an elf?

    - How helpful is it to stealth in wraith form? Does it only help with being able to walk through other characters but overall doesn't boost your chances at staying hidden?

    - Is there any truth to the rumors that there is a packet-sniffing hack program that allows someone to determine which other characters are on the same subserver and their location? If yes, what's the best method for staying undetected if you think that's what you're up against? Stay put as much possible so you're not sending a lot of info to the servers that can be used to find your character?

    - In general, do you increase your chances of being undetected by a character with GM detecting and tracking the less you move around?
     
  27. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Contrary to popular belief, no. No dev/documentation of my knowledge has ever stated that being an elf helps against passive detect. Being an elf helps against TRACKING, not detect. In which way it has bnever been stated though I tend to think that is probably the same bonus given by wraith form. If you know differently please post the link because I would be very interested to have the info.

    Against passive detect? Useless. Against tracking? Marginally useful, but only if your hid + stealth is lower than 200, which is not true for any real stealther. Actually I have had some very BAD passive reveal chances when I was in wraith form, but that might have been a streak of bad luck, or a character with 100 detect.

    Though I have never seen it, I think there was. Still, there is no way to know if devs have somehow fixed it in the mean time, but noticing that well known cheaters are not aware of stealther most of the time I tend to think that it has been fixed.

    EDIT: sorry I misread the question. The answer I can give you is "no idea", but detecting all chars on the same subserver sounds like a urban legend, the client is broadcasted only chars in visibility range, you must packet sniff the SERVER to get data about all the other players. Tracking however once acquired can give you info about a player until he leaves the subserver.

    I think that it won't help much. You are still broadcasting your presence to the clients, although they won't show you to their players. I think the only way to avoid detection is to stay outside "visibility range" from the targets.

    "you increase your chances of being undetected by a character with GM detecting the less you move around?" is the correct sentence, and the answer is yes. Passive reveal is affected by movement, and GM tracking has no relevance on it. If they suspect you are around and try to track you the GM trackign is useful, but the tiles you move have no consequence on people's ability to track you. Unless you move outside tracking range of course.
     
  28. peanutbutter

    peanutbutter Guest

    ...

    right on.

    i think i offered a solution that fixes your observation.


    you know... :scholar: why don't we all agree on a solution instead of taking turns pointing out problems. we all know what the problems are. now, let's get about 3 or 4 solutions on the table and put it to a vote.

    then, we can take the winning solution to the devs and... :spider: well...

    i guess go back to complaining... :sad4:
     
  29. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Oh, I offered so many solutions, including some that required very small effort to implement. And I offered them when Wilki was actually working on "balancing" stealth and solicited feedback. What we got? GM _active_ detection nerfed into oblivion, and four square passive detection...

    Sorry, I already proposed 3/4 solutions, with the great results we can all see. No, I got no more time to waste, if devs want input they'll let us know. Since then I don't see the point.
     
  30. Cadderly

    Cadderly Journeyman
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    I'd say dramatically lower passive reveal area and buff up detect hidden skill to a larger tile raidius.

    Passive detect hidden for a elf
    zero skill = 2 tiles
    20 skill = 4 tiles
    40 skill = 6 tiles
    etc...

    Passive detect for human
    0 skill = 0 tiles
    20 skill = 2 tiles
    40 skill = 4 tiles


    I use a detect hidden charicter often in faction play and have to say that a skilled thief with 120 hiding and 120 stealth is extremely hard to track and reveal (useing skill) with my current skill of gm detect and 90 tracking.

    Currently once I get the person on tracking it usually takes atleast a couple tries to detect them when they are standing still and I'm within a couple tiles. If they are moving arround I typically have better luck just staying close to them and passive revealing them.

    Somebody invests 240 skill points in hiding and stealth they should be hard to track/reveal. I think it is easier to have high tracking and have very little detect skill. So somebody with say 120 points invested with tracking/detecting is just as effective using passive reveal as somebody with 200 using nothing but skills to reveal.

    Keep passive reveal equation about the same just lower the tile radius that it effects
     
  31. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    I disagree on the tracking part. I have a GM detect GM tracker, and it's very easy to track people around, provided you know what you are doing (which most tracker simply don't. I am glad that there is SOME skill in this game that requires thinking). Tracking is fine as it is. About active GM reveal, yes, it's been nerfed into oblivion some time ago, supposedly to "unnerf" stealth. I wonder who was the genius who got that idea. Nerf the stealth counterclass, and boost every other class against stealth...

    It won't work very well. The highest chance to be detected are in the tiles closer to the revealer.
     
  32. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Hmm, perhaps if Detect and Tracking could be upped to 120, or just one skill, it would be a lot easier to track/detect players.
     
  33. Ozymandies

    Ozymandies Guest

    In early versions of UO, the hidden chars location were sent to everyone's client on-screen, but the client did not display the char. Yes, someone developed a prog to reveal those hidden chars. This was fixed quite some time ago, the server no longer sends hidden chars location.

    Otherwise, I agree that elven passive detect is too much. Probably should just be reduced to 30 rather than 40. However, human JoAT has many advantages and this would be an elf nerf. If implemented, elves would need some consolation.

    OZ
     
  34. ATLPvPer

    ATLPvPer Journeyman
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    You serious???
    Stealthers & Smokebombs guarantee you never die, even in ganks. You can't reveal them with spells anymore, maybe 1/5 times and by the time you get a EQ off they are waaay off screen.
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    No, they don't guarantee you never die, even in ganks. Poison, anyone? Get the tracking/detect skill like some of the skilled pvp guilds do? Earthquake is always there, conflag pots, poison fields. Believe it or not the it does work. At least on my shard pvpers know how to get stealthers. Sorry if you guys don't. You will learn how, though.
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Smoke bombs stealth ect dont necessary mean you will never die. If you also have ninja animal form and healing skill you are a pain in the ass to kill, but that's about it. A quick gank from a zerg guild (got one on my shard) as soon as you got revealed and get dismounted out of form you are dead.

    Even tho the they dont have any real skilled PvPers but all the dread mares are put on you as soon as you come out and other dismount archers waiting for you with a bluebie (not in faction) detecting tracking safely sitting in gzone is a common pvp tactics. Well at least thats on my shard for that zerg guild.

    As much as I hate stealthers (the zerg guild consistantly having 3+ stealthers sometimes up to 7 either in the house or following their gank squad), I really think stealthing should be more reliable for all the points invested in it. I mean at least lower that passive reveal rate.
     
  37. I have a solution. Remove passive reveal. Make revealing require the skills detect, and tracking.

    Then set a timer for any character, who chooses to flag on another individual. If you flag and go into war mode, you would get the same message you'd recieve when trying to use moongates, or recalling. Thou may not hide while in combat, or some such message. I would say atleast 1minute should be enough.

    (also invis spell and pots can work, but that in itself needs fixed, to where you would still need to use the hiding skill to go into stealth mode, which by the flagging timer, wouldn't be allowed, so while you may get the invis spell off, you'd wouldn't be able to stealth away)

    This timer would not apply to anyone who didn't flag. It could also only be negated by a smokebomb/ninja skill set. I say this, because i believe if your a ninja, you then have 3 skills invested in your ability to stealth, and hide. And only by having the ninja skill, and required smokebomb could you then hide again and use stealth while in combat.

    So this timer rids uo of all the gimp templates, stealth archers, stealth tamers, etc.. unless your adding Ninja in your template.

    But then at that point, we could adjust or fix ninja skill to require 80 points to use smokebombs. By making a 3rd skill for the gimps to have to continue playing and using their cheap tactics, will severly cramp or require an overhall of their character templates.

    This to me is the most logical of fixes. It should allow thieves to thrive to the best of their abilities in an insurance world, allow ninjas to operate freely, allow sneaks, dungeon crawlers, etc.. to go about their buisness, and put a slow down, or decrease in the amount of stealth attackers, or at the very least it would require them to take more skill points away from their combat abilities.
     
  38. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Dragon, do what you suggested you would wipe out the biggest guild on my shard. The changes are too much. While I could careless, it will make the stealthers (especially reds) damn near worthless. When I play my stealth archer, I feel weak against other full blown dexers in all 1v1s because I devoted at least 200 extra skill points so I can hide and stealth while they can have more damage/pets/healing/bushido/parry/resist. It will actually destory stealthers and even worse for real ninjas. Only class I can take down with ease and can never kill me are necro/pure mages thanks to my faction bandages and mobility. But thats about it.

    Stealth archer is basically a gank-assisting template.
     
  39. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Sorry, but those changes, or something similar (I think I have better ideas, but that's just me. :) ) are EXACTLY what is needed for stealthers. If they wipe out a guild, that means that such guild is not composed by stealthers but by FOTM templates. They will soon adapt to the latest FOTM, and if that means leaving stealth, they will. I wouldn't care less, I will continue to play thief, assassin and detective.

    I sense a disturbance in the Force here... :)

    The fact that you, and others, expect hid/stealth to give you protection in the middle of an open fight and assume that it is somehow a "right" of the class, is _exactly_ the problem with the current state of stealth. OF COURSE you are weaker against others. You have sacrificed that for the advantage of a surprise attack (which might be boosted if the nerf goes in place) and the chance to escape if in trouble. Hid and stealth should not, in any way, offer you cover for few secs so you can hit again... and again.. and again...

    Feel free to read the messages you reply at any time. The idea above won't touch real ninjas at all, actually is a boost without nerfs for them. About destroying stealthers... I play REAL stealthers 90% of my time and I don't feel so nerfed. Actually I am more hardcore and I think that I would feel much better with passive reveal gone an step counting back.

    I agree. That however means that if the gank fails they should die. Like flies. That is not the case, currently.
     
  40. Messiah

    Messiah Guest

    I actually thought just the opposite, I feel asthough if you want to PvP they should take stealth out of play. It's quite stupid when you have someone redlined and they just hit a smoke bomb and stealth away, or sit at fel moongates waiting to rez kill you.


    My take on stealthing should be anytime your in fel you get revealed no matter what, on the fel facet.
     
  41. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    No it wouldnt. They would do as Traveller says, and move on to the next gimp template, if there is one

    This game is 90% stealth archers and archers and more archers
     
  42. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    BUT,

    I aggre that stealthing for kills is GIMP but it is what an assasin does he wait for the most oprotune time to make the killing blow.

    Stealth Tamers, Archers, with nija is just plain sad but a very, as one put it FOTM , Template and one we will just have to deal with.

    This was started because on My Stealth Fation Thief i cannot walk by a player guarding a sig at any base wihtout getting dected. Even fellow elves in my faction / guild revela me.

    This passive detect is what needs to be fixed. If you have detect and or tracking then you sohuld be able to find me but if you are just an elf standing there hidden with your pet standing next to you and I walk by 4 - 8 tiles away or on anohter floor you should not have ANY chance to reveal me.

    As for Stealth tamers there is one simple fix - is that if the tamer is hidden the pet will wander. Pets should not be able to Guard or Follow anyone they cannot see. Also they should stop guarding or following as soon at the owner hides.

    Stealth Dexers - sorry this is a viable template and one we just have to deal with.
     
  43. Messiah

    Messiah Guest

    Sure for a purely faction theif this is a viable argument (imo), but when SE was released a few years back they said that this was one of the traits of being an elf, granite to me your an idiot if your an elf and PvP. But for some reason people still do it.


    The stealthing characters arn't horribly bad if you know how to fight them, it's just lame when you forget a few basic things that you need to do to them and they always get away :yell:
     
  44. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    In essence you want to remove assassination (and the counterskills) from the game. I happen to disagree, it sounds like a very narrow viewpoint.
     
  45. KnocK_KnOck

    KnocK_KnOck Guest


    Thats just .... silly? Why not remove tamers as well oh and tamer archers? They are way overpowered compared to a stealther , But then again you get the dragon away from a tamer and they die easy.... Stealthers are just annoying. I have not seen many that can do much on their own. Most are easy to kill if you know how to kill them. I dont see what the problem is really. A mage can cast Invis while a archer is shooting at them... Sort of the same thing.

    Smoke bombs do save stealthers butts ALOT, but they are weak compaired to a straight dexxer. Pvpers IMO need a good stealther that can live threw ganks at spawns / field fights.

    I don't know but IMO things are fine how they are , Even with the gimp tamers. passive detect just makes it harder for a stealther and needs to be left alone
     
  46. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

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    You know, that is a really good idea. It never did make sense that a pet can can guard or follow their master if they are hidden. Guildmates can't see their hidden allies or other guildmates.
     
  47. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    I've never been a theif, or a stealther.

    Thinking back, I recall the obnoxious nature of stealthers at different points in time. Swarms of stealth archers, or other classes that relied on stealthing. Sounds reasonable off hand, but the reality was they were obnoxious, so much so that I would have labled it as a serious balance issue. A single stealther should -not- be able to avoid detection and or combat at will unless the -environment- supports it.

    As such;

    Passive -and- active reveal should only work with LOS.
    Passive reveal, combined with LOS should be fairly high, say 25% per step, and only while standing still, it should also have a steadying aspect. IE player stops, and has a 5% chance per step. After say, every second they stand still, they gain an aditional 5% in reveal, upto the max 25%.
    Passive detects range is 1 tile at 0 detect hidden, 2 tiles at 50, and 3 tiles at GM. (It would be hard if not impossible, and should be, to stealth around someone with detect hidden. Stealthing should be about avoidance.

    Active detecting hidden should be a similar setup to Passive. Player must be walking, starting the skill reveals 1 tile, then an additional tile per 10 skill per second. There should be a residual reveal effect past the 10 seconds, of say, 10 seconds if walking, and 30 seconds if standing still. Mounted players recieve a 50% penalty to all aspects. (1 tile per 20 skill, per 2 seconds. So they only reveal max 5 tiles, in 10 seconds, with a lasting effect of 5 and 15 respectivly)

    Anyone, regardless of skill should be able to activly reveal someone hidden within 1 tile.

    Detect hidden skill should have a delay of say, 15 seconds.


    Exceptions;
    Monsters should only have a 5% chance to passivly detect a stealther within 1 tile. Active and passive detect also works at twice the range for stealthers running.


    I'm sure there's a couple more tweaks, and number adjustments, namely with tracking and such. But the general idea is this;

    It should -not- be possible to walk right by someone and not be noticed.
    It should be possible to be stealthy (by avoidance) and remain hidden.
    Stealthing is about being stealthy. If I know you are there (by tripping on you, or the fact that, say, I WATCHED YOU HIDE, you are, by definition, failing at being sneaky. There is no reason I cannot walk upto where you are, look for, and find you. There is also no reason for you to be able to push your way through a doorway (that I'm standing in), or say cross a bridge I'm standing on, and not be noticed.

    Stealthing should be a powerfull skill, that, like many other skills, relies on using it accordingly. If you are stealthing, you need to be trying to be sneaky. BE sneaky, use LOS rules, use ridges, etc to keep yourself hidden. If you see 5 people running down the hallway, stop. You are trying to avoid being seen, and carrying on like they are not there is how and why the skill has been abused in the past.
     
  48. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Bo Bo plays siege and Bo would love to see passive detect on siege. Siege has way to many stealthers, BO would guess about 60% of the shard has stealth. Stealth ninja tamers will be outta control on prodo shards if there is no passive detect. Stealth in its current form on siege is way over powered, a smart ninja will never die. Bo actually believes stealth should go back to the way it was, where you have to wait and can only go 8 steps at a clip, now if you take out passive detect you must impliment something like this otherwise your will have all stealth pvp. Trust Bo THIS IS NOT FUN.. Btw Bo is a stealth ninja necro and has only died once since the new faction stuff and that was to the guards. Bo knows stealth on siege and it is killin siege pvp.
     
  49. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    Bo knows.........
     
  50. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    There is a critical failure in your reasoning:

    It should be possible to use sneak to catch people when their guard is down. That's the essence of the class. Currently private houses, easy recall, easy escape to trammel, GM tracking limited to subservers, and owner-only teleporters, make that impossible.

    If you want to maintain thieves and assassins in game (obviously you may not agree with that, but in that case be honest about it), you either have to allow them to sneak undetected close to people, or allow them to stalk their targets until they let their guard down. You know that this game has reached a point where the second alternative is not viable, so the first one must be used, unless you want the currently ludicrous situation.

    There are so many solutions requiring player skills, which would cut down on gimplates. For instance: boost passive detection, increase its range and reveal likelyhood but let it work only against passive use of stealth. So if you use stealth actively (i.e. you count steps) you ignore passive detection except from GM scouts.

    Or:

    Boost passive detect, but make it work only against players you have seen (or you had pushthrough) in the last two minutes, besides let also active detect from 20 or 40 work on them. So, if you have done a flawless game you can sneak up to people, you goof and you had better gtfo fast.

    Point is that with the current game design a stealther MUST get close people before he stirkes. On the other hand a decent gameplay can't allow hordes of people attacking others and disappear just to reattack 5 sec afterwards. But passive detect allows the latter and forbids the former. Completely crazy if you ask me...