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On TC: Are Gold Hammers working right ... ?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Since yesterday I have been running tests on TC with Bronze, Gold, and Aggy Hammers, and something seems off with the Gold Hammers. It seems like the intensities are not quite right (for the min.) and occasionally there is a missing property (2, instead of 3-4).

    I plan to keep testing, but has anyone else noticed this?
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ive noticed missing properties but someone said a property can go to resistance. So I chalked it up to that.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have taken into account resists, add on to DI, and split damage types, and some are still just flat missing a property. I checked the durability, and it was within normal range, no self repair ...

    I am doing more testing now.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    [​IMG]

    Barbed Kit.

    Im pretty sure they know about the issue. Just havent figured it out yet.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I did some testing with a valorite runic this morning and thought it sometimes missed a mod, posted about it here .
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There is a bug with DI that might cause this - Leurocian has put in a fix but it's not in this publish. If anyone pins it down further by all means let us know!
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I thought I made a 2 property sword earlier, till I realized it takes 2 property charges to make Spell Channeling without Faster Casting -1.

    It was Spell Channeling, Lizardman Slayer, 40 DI. Mmmm. [​IMG]
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Working on it :p (And the pic In Flames posted would have nothing to do with DI since it is armor)

    Off hand, does anyone know the max on Stamina Leech? I thought it was 100% on a slow wep (lance, using for testing as it is the easiest to know if the leeches are right) but apparently I am wrong?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hi there Jeremy,

    I have experienced the DI bug myself.
    Its not funnt to loose a property on a very hard to get high runic hammer.
    A few months ago I trashed two weapons made from Verite hammer that had only 3 properties.


    My point of view is that if DI is rolled for between 35 and 40 DI its not rerolled because the armslore property is not in the equation.Code still think 35 is max DI.


    Regards
    The Scandinavian
     
  10. <blockquote><hr>

    Working on it :p (And the pic In Flames posted would have nothing to do with DI since it is armor)

    Off hand, does anyone know the max on Stamina Leech? I thought it was 100% on a slow wep (lance, using for testing as it is the easiest to know if the leeches are right) but apparently I am wrong?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The cause is the same, though. His armor is losing a mod because it rolled mage armor and is already medable armor.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Try testing the Hammer on stuff that you cannot make exceptional, or rarely and just not include them in your research.

    Maybe post the weapons full item property list of weapons you think is missing a property. Extra eyes never hurt... much...
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I just want to say how thankful I am to players like you who can get through these complicated systems and notice the problems. Otherwise I would probably just go through with making my items not knowing there was any issue at all.

    Thank you.
     
  13. you could have gotten the "mage armour" property
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yeah, we confirmed that leather can lose a property if it rolls mage armor. Unrelated to the gold hammer issue though.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I am not done testing, but I have noticed a few oddities. Here is my testing so far (some of the notes might seem a bit jumbled, since some notes that should be general are listed under specific hammers) Also, I chose Lances because the maximum for Life and Mana Leech is 100%, so easy to tell if proper intensities are being reached.

    BRONZE HAMMER (3 guaranteed properties)
    Iron Ingots
    50 Lances

    2 Two Property Items

    Troll Slayer
    Hit Lower Defense 46%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 174

    Spell Channeling
    Hit Mana Leech 94%
    Faster Casting -1
    DamageIncrease 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 118

    1 Low Leech Property

    Hit Lower Defense 32%
    Hit Mana Leech 52%
    Swing Speed Increase 20%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 115

    Other Notes:

    Bronze Hammers seem to handle the DI roll correctly, as I had a significant percent of items with DI of 41 - 47. This might be a result of the Bronze Hammer tending towards higher intensity rolls (info follows). It also seems that Bronze Hammers tend to have a very high percent of 80%+ intensities, and a very LOW percent of 60% - 80% intensities. Out of 50, only 2 had Hit Spell (including HLD &amp; HLA) of less that 40%, and only 3 had Hit Life or Mana Leech of less than 80%, and that includes the one that has Mana Leech below the minimum. Also, when Mage Wep was rolled, it was always - 20 or -21.


    AGAPITE HAMMERS (4 guaranteed properties)
    Iron Ingots
    50 Lances

    15 Three Property Items

    Not listed due to how long it would take, but still have posession of items on TC.

    1 Low Leech Property

    Hit Life Leech 59%
    Faster Casting 1
    Swing Speed 25%
    Damage Increase 46%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 130

    Other Notes:

    Agapite Hammers seem to handle the intensities more in line with what would be expected for a RNG roll between 65% and 100%. No particularly low, nor high, intensities stood out. This could be causing the result of a much higher percentage of "missing property" items vs. the Bronze Hammer.


    GOLDEN HAMMER
    Iron Ingots
    50 Lances

    21 Four Property Items
    14 Three Property Items + 7 Two Property Items (21 Total)
    8 Three Property Items that could be either 3 or 4 missing 1 (based on item durability).
    (3 property items vs. 4 property items seems appropriate taking everything into consideration)

    7 Two Property Items:

    Hit Mana Leech 85%
    Hit Lower Defense 50%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 52

    Hit Mana Leech 94%
    Hit Lower Attack 40%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 96

    Hit Mana Leech 76%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 50%
    Fire Damage 30%
    Energy Damage 20%
    Durability 116

    Ophidian Slayer
    Faster Casting 1
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 162

    Air Elemental Slayer
    Damage Increase 40%
    Use Best Weapon Skill
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 248

    Hit Lower Attack 42%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Cold Resist 10%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durabiliy 55

    Hit Life Leech 56% *(Leech is lower than minimum intensity)
    Swing Speed Increase 25%
    Damage Increase 40%
    Physical Damage 100%
    Durability 104

    Other Notes:

    Gold Hammer, like Bronze Hammers, seem to have a higher percent of high percentage intensity rolls. With Golden Hammers it is a bit of a lower intensity (mostly 75% and above, rather than 80% noted on Bronze Hammers). Also noted on both Bronze and Gold Hammers - Lost properties seem to have a higher likelihood of being due to a Durability roll, rather than a DI roll. However, it is difficult to tell how many missing properties are due to a Durability roll, since even without a roll on it, Durability can range all the way up to 255.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Yeah, we confirmed that leather can lose a property if it rolls mage armor. Unrelated to the gold hammer issue though.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Has that Mage armor issue been checked on the exception Samurai metal armor, since it can automatically have the Mage Armor property when exception?

    Other Topic:
    Not many people make Metal armor seeing how; Tailoring Ruinics are easier to get, High end Leather types are more dependably gotten, Leather armor is inherently Medable.

    Having Metal armor(Non-Medable) offer more protection(or some other bonus) is one idea.
    ...or...
    How about Exceptionally crafted Metal armor containing the "Mage Armor" property automatically, similar to the Samurai armor. That would help Metal armor to be a somewhat more viable option. That may be the quickest/easiest option(note: I haven't seen the code) for helping validate Metal armors.

    Ofcourse if the system was purposely designed that way so that Tailors make the armor and Smiths make the weapons then so be it.

    Just a little input.
     
  17. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>


    Bronze Hammers seem to handle the DI roll correctly, as I had a significant percent of items with DI of 41 - 47. This might be a result of the Bronze Hammer tending towards higher intensity rolls (info follows).


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am NOT convinced that smith runics handle DI correctly.

    Lets take arms lore out of this for now.

    Before - EX weapons give 35% DI. Well you could roll DI 28 with an old bronze hammer and the 35% DI from EX would wipe it out. It would lose a property. That bug was FIXED some time ago. They recoded it to re-roll that property.

    Now, present day, add in arms lore. I don't believe when they added arms lore they ever tested this fix. I really believe that with arms lore 100 you get 5% DI. So all weapons are 40% DI min. I believe that the DI/reroll check is 35 or below. When a 41-50 are rolled - no problem it keeps it and its a mod (as you saw in your tests).

    HOWEVER when it rolls 36-39 - it gets 'dropped' since the reroll check is 35 or below from the old EX days. So in your bronze hammer properties - your first one only has 2. I'm betting you rolled something like a DI 38 and it was dropped.

    Why? Because it was not below the 35 threshold to force a reroll of the property but below the 40 min of EX+Arms Lore.

    They really need to rework the arms lore/DI/runic DI situation.

    I posted this question when they came out with Arms Lore changes and go no response.

    Now they change runics and finally wake up to another 'bug' that they broke by poor testing back in the day.

    This one is also on my list to Leuro when I get to smith runics and all the bugs there (and there are DOZENS like this).
     
  18. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>


    Has that Mage armor issue been checked on the exception Samurai metal armor, since it can automatically have the Mage Armor property when exception?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    No they haven't. This one was broken in SE beta. I reported this one and they never addressed it.

    You can craft SE EX armor with a DC hammer and have it show up with no properties. I proved this in the beta and I don't recall it ever being fixed.

    No one ever makes smith armor with runics so its less of an issue with smith runics. However, Barb kits mage armor issue has a much broader impact.

    This one is also on my list.

    Like I said - Dozens of bugs. Most of the smith craftables brought out in SE and ML are broken in some fashion.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, Theo, I am not discounting the DI thing at all. As I noted, I think with Bronze Hammers on TC, the issue may be covered up by the fact that they are rolling such a high percentage of 80%+ intensities. Similar issue with the Golden Hammer. The other thing I noted that seems to be odd is the whole Durability thing. On the Golden Hammers, most of the missing properties seemed to be going into a Durability roll, but it is so hard to tell since Durability can range all the way to 255 without a Durability roll.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If they're the same bug(same code), might as well fix them both at the same time. That's what I do!
     
  21. Metal armor has higher durability than leather. It may not be enough to offset the leather kits' properties, but it does exist.

    OZ
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ahh yes!
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Having finished testing, no other hammers seem to have anomolies that cannot be explained by the DI issue.

    So, that leaves Bronze Hammers and Golden Hammers as having oddities with how often they roll high intensities. Both roll intensities of 75% or higher most of the time. That probably explains the lower frequency of "missing properties" on these two hammers compared to the Agapite and higher (relatively, of course, accounting for the fact that they would roll the DI property less often).

    There also appears to be a very low chance (5% or less?) of a Hit Leech rolling below the minimum possible intensity on any given hammer.
     
  24. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
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    There's nothing wrong with those lances with leech properties.
    They all have SSI which lowers the cap on leech:

    Lance with 20% SSI : base speed 4.5s/1.2=3.75 s
    Cap on Leech properties = 3.75x25= 93%
    Minimum intensity with a Bronze Hammer = 93%x0.55 = 51%

    Lance with 25% SSI : base speed 4.5s/1.25=3.6s (rounded down to 3.5s I think)
    Cap on Leech properties = 3.5x25= 87%
    Minimum intensity with an Agapite Hammer = 87%x0.65 = 56%
    Minimum intensity with a Gold Hammer = 87%x0.6 = 52%

    All of those lances exceed the minimum intensity if you take into account the effect of SSI.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sneaky sneaky!
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Theo, DI is definitely not being handled correctly across the board - it's a global bug. (Which fix looks like it will make it in this publish, actually!)
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Also, Life and Mana leech are deeply, terribly strange. I tried to write up an explanation of them but my head started hurting. I'll get back to it in the next week or so.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hehe ... that is twisted, but it does explain the situation with Leeches.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Theo, DI is definitely not being handled correctly across the board - it's a global bug. (Which fix looks like it will make it in this publish, actually!)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    &lt;3
     
  30. <blockquote><hr>

    Also, Life and Mana leech are deeply, terribly strange. I tried to write up an explanation of them but my head started hurting. I'll get back to it in the next week or so.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I thnk I can save the time and efforts of devs to explain how the Life Leech and Mana leech works.

    This would be the easiest explanation to understand as I could.

    (1): MrTact intended that the max intensity of Life Leech and Mana leech should be 100% when the Swing Speed of the weapon is 4s and 50% when the Swing Speed of the weapon is 2s.

    The max intensity is affected by the swing speed of the weapon as follows:
    [​IMG]

    (*)Note: the intensity of HHL and HML on the bows will be half as much as that of above.
    (*)Note 2: Swing Speed will be adjusted according to the SSI of the weapon.
    (*)Note 3: max intensity will not be affected when the wooden weapon is enhanced by Ash.

    (2): The max amount of Life or the Mana that will be leeched will be calculated as follows:
    The max amount of HP leeched = the given damage * 0.3* intensity of life leech / 100
    The max amount of Mana leeched = the given damage * 0.4* intensity of mana leech / 100

    The acctual HP or Mana that wil be leeched will be 0 - [the max value calculated by the formula above].

    Cf: MrTact's post of 08/21/06
     
  31. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    And in regards to mana/life/stamina leech - instead of it being the %age chance of the property 'firing' - the leeches fire every hit - but now the %age is how much of the max leech they can do.

    That confuses people alot since the old system was completely different.

    I think Athos and I need to form the Dev crafting team. A bag of munchies and an all nighter and I think we'd have it tied up!

    Jeremy - Great news on the DI fix.

    Its nice to see crafting getting some attention. For one week I don't look like the crazy mumbling crafter in the corner that everyone ignores. :p
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    There is a bug with DI that might cause this - Leurocian has put in a fix but it's not in this publish. If anyone pins it down further by all means let us know!

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Jeremy,
    Can you (or anyone else) check another apparent runic hammer bug? 100 Lore 110 Smith using a Dull Copper runic to make Chainmail Tunics and I made:
    Exceptional
    Weight 7 Stones
    Phys 4%
    Fire 10%
    Cold 6%
    Poison 4%
    Energy 5%
    Strength Requirement 60
    Durability 60 / 60

    I then made a Chainmail Tunic with a plain GM tinkered hammer that was:
    Exceptional
    Weight 7 Stones
    Phys 11%
    Fire 5%
    Cold 8%
    Poison 6%
    Energy 5%
    Strength Requirement 60
    Durability 62 / 62

    This seems terribly wrong...the DC one had no apparent mods and inferior resists and inferior durability. Overall, the only higher stat was fire resist on the runic-crafted tunic.

    thanks in advance.
     
  33. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    This is not a bug.

    The issue is that non-runic armor gets a 15 resist boost wheras runic made only 6.

    They made this change a LONG time ago right after AOS came out. I am not sure its documented very well.

    This is precicely why low end runics (spined in particular) were nerfed into oblivion. The penalty for runic made was so great and the intensity of spined so low it took two high end rolls just to get something equal to gm made.

    This is not a bug - but the way the system works. They did it to make 'gm armor more attractive'. It didn't. It just means you need a better runic than spined to make armor.

    That is why the intensity boost makes lower level runics valuable again.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I remember the resist nerf, but it had been so long since I used a low-end runic that I had assumed it had been fixed in the interim. Alas, it is with great sadness that it was not. This means that the mod was in the fire resists and therefore I have a one mod piece. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll go back to ignoring the low-end runics again [​IMG]