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OT: How strong is your case knowledge?

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by HaHa, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    OK , had a hypothetical situation presented to me today, see if you agree with what I came up with...


    One day an anonymous person called the Atlanta PD with a tip. The caller said that a young African-American male wearing a plaid shirt was standing at a specific bus stop by a pawn shop. The caller said that the young man was carrying a gun. The caller described the young man as well as two other young men who were with him. Officer Anderson, a 14 year vet and her partner went to check out the anonymous tip. When they got to the bus stop six minutes later, the officers saw 3 young, African-American men. Just like the caller said , one young man was wearing a plaid shirt.

    The officers did not see a gun. While the three young men were hanging out by the bus stop, Officer Anderson and her partner approached them and frisked all three. The young man in the plaid shirt, J.L., had a gun in his pocket. The other young men were not carrying any weapons. The police arrested J.L.

    J.L., who was almost 16 when he was arrested , was charged with breaking two GA. laws . First , J.L. was charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a license. Second , he was charged with possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. J.L.s trial took pplace in the Superior Court. There, his attorney argued the the search of J.L. was unreasonable and that it violated the Fourth Amendment because it was based on an anonymous tip. THe attorney argued that because the search was unreasonable , the gun taken from J.L. during the search should not be used as evidence. The trial court agreed with J.L.s attorney. The State of GA. appealed the superior courts decision to the Georgia Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals disagreed with the superior court. The Court of Appeals ruled that the search of J.L. was reasonable and that the gun could be used as evidence against J.L.



    My finding: The search was not legal because unlike in Terry V. Ohio no suspicious nor unusual activity was observed so there was no reason for the officers to approach and search the young men, and as stated in Draper V. United States an officer can act on information provided by an informant if the information is corroborated by the officer, the information was not corroborated before the search and therefore I feel that the search violated J.L.s Fourth Amendment right.


    Anything to add?
     
  2. Goron

    Goron Guest

    Your finding sounds good...
    Terry stops require some sort of probable cause...

    The LEO had no knowledge if the young man was 21 or not, or if he possessed a license to carry (or whatever they called in GA) and had no reason to suspect otherwise (or to suspect he was up to no good).

    I'm getting my Utah carry permit in March... that will open GA to me:)
    Except you guys have some messed up laws about 'public gatherings'...

    I like PA carry laws... with my LTCF I can carry anywhere except a courthouse or Federal building...
     
  3. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    This hypothetical argument seems very straightforward along with the findings.

    I can only guess that whoever brought this up to you was testing your racism factor by mentioning the men were black and judging your response.

    [edit] Although an argument could be made for the cop's ineptitude. Any officer who knows the law would have watched the man for a while until he saw the gun and got probably cause. Tips can be used to justify surveillance [/edit]
     
  4. Goron

    Goron Guest

    Maybe...
    GA is an open carry state. So if the cop came over and the young man had a pistol visible, unconcealed in a holster in his waistband, the cop may not have reason to stop him. Unless the kid looked blatantly, obviously young... I am not sure if that would be justified as reason enough though...
    (note the in a holster part- thats another interesting GA carry law...)
     
  5. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    I don't live in GA, but I am almost positive that if you are seen with a gun (in any state) you can be asked to present your permit.
     
  6. Goron

    Goron Guest


    And when I said, no thank you sir.
    Then what?
    The cop, having a holier than thou attitude (like a 97% chance that's true for any given cop encounter) would feel challenged and thus push the issue.

    They would demand to disarm me, demand identification... I would in turn inform them that I have no responsibility to provide them with ID. I would ask them to verbally acknowledge that they know the State's open carry laws. Once they did, I would begin complying with all of their requests, all the while informing them of four words: "I do not consent".

    After a nice little sit in, on, or next to a police cruiser, with a possible nap in the local jail (depending on who smart the cop's superiors are), I would be released having commited no crimes... I would also immediatly write everything down, and call my lawyer... On year later, after a long and annoying civil court battle, a police officer would likely be out of his/her job, I'd be a lot richer, and a municipality would had higher insurance premiums...

    Trust me, if I am familiar with any case law it is firearms carry laws. I have no desire to be a felon, and I carry everyday- so I like to know my rights.
     
  7. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    As I said, I don't know GA carry laws. If the law there doesn't require presenting a permit upon request, then you have won this little side-argument; but that only proves how screwed up the law is in GA.

    My point to the original post still stands though.
     
  8. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    A Terry stop requires only reasonable suspicion, not probable cause. The question is whether an anonymous tip is sufficient to establish reasonable suspicion.

    In the case described, the anonymous tip does not give the officers a justifiable reason to frisk for weapons. This is because the Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that and anonymous tip is not enough for a stop and frisk. However, the police have every right to walk up and speak to the young men and try to develop independent reasonable suspicion.

    To justify a stop and frisk, the officer must articulate reasonable suspicion that the individuals may be armed and dangerous. Justification could have been established if the officers articulated a reasonable basis to believe the men (or at least one of them) was armed independent of the original tip. If the caller had predicted certain behavior and surveillance verified the behavior (such as walking back and forth to look in a business as if preparing to rob it). Furtive movements, a protrusion (don’t laugh HaHa) in the waistband, etc. would also qualify. None of these things are described in your hypothetical. Neither is there any other form of corroboration; like a second caller or a stopping motorist that says, “I am the one that called, I just don’t want to get named in the report. Its those guys over there.”

    So as it stands you are correct, the evidence will be excluded.
     
  9. Goron

    Goron Guest

    Eh... now that i think of it, GA might not be an open carry state...
    In which case, you are correct...
    GA might actually req. a license to OC...
    I'll need to check on that...


    But, regardless, a lot of states are open carry states- you can carry non-concealed without license or permit.
     
  10. Memnoch

    Memnoch Journeyman
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    Im really out of it as I've been sick the past two days and Im drugged like a horse being put to sleep..

    But without knowing any of GA's carrying laws I would say that despite your Terry V Ohio necessity for reasonable suspicion (all thats needed for a pat-down of weapons to secure safety of said officer) rather then probable cause, reasonable suspicion can be easily created and fabricated by said officer.. In which case, regrettably it becomes the 14yr vet cops word against the 16yr old carrying a concealed weapon on a street corner with no carrying liscence..

    Who's word will win?
     
  11. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    No firearm permit is required in most open carry states (like Arizona for example).
     
  12. Memnoch

    Memnoch Journeyman
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    Wow 3 posts in 3min in which my points made agree with Hattori..
     
  13. Goron

    Goron Guest

    Ah c'mon Hat, no comment on my 'holier than thou' comment?
    I was trying to stir the LEO pot here and no one bit so far...
    You guys are boring.
     
  14. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    That is good to know, and sad to learn.
     
  15. Goron

    Goron Guest

    You are form Jersey or New York. I bet 1,000,000 gold.
     
  16. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    If an officer documents his facts in the original report, he will often win on his credibility regarding factors that create reasonable suspicion. If he did not document the facts (as it seems in HaHas original hypothetical - eerily similar to a Florida case), he can not come up with that info at trial and maintain any credibility.
     
  17. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    When do I get my gold then? I'm in one of the redneck states. If you guess right this time you can keep your money.

    [hint] My location used to name the place. [/hint]
    No worries I don't expect you to pay.
     
  18. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    See, we are not all bad.
     
  19. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    Why would I argue? You said I was hollier than thou! :hug:

    Seriouslythough, I liked your "Stand up against the man" rant. It had me cheering you on with a raised clinched fist.
     
  20. Goron

    Goron Guest

    doh... I lose.
    And its not even CA then huh?

    ... :-/

    I didn't really mean I bet against you, cuz had I won could I expect you to pay? But, I'll give you $ anyways cuz I woulda bet against you had I started with "I bet I know which state u are in with two guesses"...
     
  21. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    I wouldn't have made such a bet if I couldn't pay. A man's word is worth more than gold.

    It's Missouri.
     
  22. Mind your own f'n buisness, nosey busybody. I hope Sancho had fun while someone was interested in the 3 black males.
     
  23. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    "The officers did not see a gun. While the three young men were hanging out by the bus stop, Officer Anderson and her partner approached them and frisked all three. "

    "The young man in the plaid shirt, J.L., had a gun in his pocket. The other young men were not carrying any weapons. The police arrested J.L."

    "J.L., who was almost 16 when he was arrested , was charged with breaking two GA. laws."

    "First , J.L. was charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a license."

    "Second , he was charged with possessing a firearm while under the age of 18."

    I believe that Officer Anderson should have waited to see if the three young men
    waiting for a bus would get on the bus stopping there. I am sure the officer could
    obtain information about the bus schedule at that stop. Persistent presence about
    a public place could make people nervous about intent, this includes that officer.
    Yes, I know...people have to be somewhere, but if someone did see the gun
    and reported this to the police anonymously, does the police just wait forever.
    J.L. is not in a militia or even old enough to be in a militia so the Second Admendment will not win for J.L.

    If the gun evidence does not get supressed I believe that the First charge of
    being without a license should stand. But, the Second charge is unnecessary.
    Obviously, being under 16 meant that J.L. could not get a license.
    The DA should drop this charge. I really do not like multiple rules for the same act.

    You left out something here. Did the DA charge J.L. as an adult?
    If yes shame on that DA for ignoring the facts.

    The gun should never be returned to J.L. or whomever J.L. got it from.

    I bet the evidence got supressed.

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  24. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Props for leaving out the racial bias inherent in the story.. but I'm still convinced the entire argument was a psychological test for racism and whether one's view of the law rises above skin color.

    The evidence had better of been suppressed due to the dubious method of seizure.
     
  25. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    It maybe a racism test since I got in trouble calling a non violent cross burning a peaceful gathering .

    Seriously though, it was a situation given to a class of 7 whites and 5 blacks. I had to come up with an answer in a role play situation where i am the justice of the supreme court. Imagine the look on my face when the academy instuctor said we were doing role play today. I was already pulling out whips and leather outfits for the class.
     
  26. Rafkor

    Rafkor Guest

    These things dont happen in Canada.
    No cop would be allowed to search me even if they got tipped i had a nuclear device up my ass , anonymous tips is so unreliable and could be an uncontrollable factor , its a different thing when you get to court or someone life is in danger but they need the proof and a witness for trial , anonymous tip and illegal search on suposition here is out of the question i cant even think of it goign to trial.

    In the U.S its a whole different thing , i watch these show on t.v and man the police try to make you say anything , i know why i felt like i was entering U.S.S.R when i got sent back by the U.S border patrol.

    They tried everything to make one of us four state that our friend knew he wasent allowed in the U.S so they could get something to sue him , instead of just figuring out the only logic of ,OK the guy really had no idea because he bar brawled alot and got like 5 criminal record proving that he wasent allowed in, so they tried to make one of us say that he knew , but why the heck would he be there if he knew that ? they told us YOU GUYS ARE GOING DOWN 20 YEARS IN THE PEN ! ILLEGAL ALIEN SMUGGLING ! * plus they said such bad stuff in front of my face , things like these dumb french canadians i hate them blah blah blah , i just couldnt believe it , its against the law in here for anyone who represent the law to say discriminatory remarks.

    Since that day i look at the U.S with despise, i felt and got treated like a ****ty criminal while in fact all i was trying to do was visiting a casino in akwasasne and spend some cash there and have a good time, thank god im a white catholic otherwise id be listenig to rock and roll all day long at guantanamo.
     
  27. Goron

    Goron Guest

    No kidding... anonymous or not, informant tips result in a heck of a lot more BAD than good. It makes me sick reading about all the no-knock warrants that go bad based on an informant tip. Too often the main target isn't even at home, and all that comes of it is property damage, risk to officer safety, and risk to innocent bystanders. I'd much rather see an increase in situations where the bad guy got away if that would mean a decrease to the high number of good guy or innocent casualties that too often are a result of para-military home invasions....
     
  28. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    I agree...

    Unfortunately, the police can only arrest people after the crime is committed.
    The police have to have evidence that a crime was committed.
    Do we need better training for our police? Always... they are just human too.

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  29. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    Living upon the state borderline of 2 states.........first question most would ask here is are they from SHELBIE county or DeSoto County ??? Not that it will matter regarding any minor carrying a weapon concealed or not concealed ..........minors should not be carrying weapons period.

    My first questions would be ..........on who's tip ?? Is the tip callin in just stirring up trouble or some honest concerned citizens..and why even mention the hue of the youngsters at all ?

    One could call in saying a kid with a plaid shirt ..like what there are sevearl teens in plaid shirts no just one regardless of hue only ONE appears to be in the plaid shirt and also that same one...appears to be toting a gun and he appears to be a minor, at the local bus stop by a pawn shop...go check it out if ...........yall not busy with some real crime going down somewhere atm.

    I live in Mississppi but on the border of Tennessee...most everyone's first question here would be FROM WHICH COUNTY ? So easily here the *border lines are so blurred* yet not...easy too for one state's residents to think they are UP THERE or DOWN HERE when they are on the other state's side of the street............... Thus my husband has his gun permits legal like for both concealed and not concealed ok'd for toting..in BOTH STATES ! :)

    *edits* and yes our police here almost have to LOOK at the map for sure to make sure that location is in their juristiction or ...the other police's jurisdiction. Luckily they DO co operate together alot on a lot of the border crossing issues or crimes they HAVE to do so here. You could see a person with a gun at the local kmart here and depending upon whether they are literally robbing the back of the store ie TENNESEE or the front end of the store ie MISSISSIPPI.........well ya see our ..problem here. :) So first question here is WHO's tip and what side of the line they talking about ?
     
  30. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest


    what if Jl broke into someones house and stole the gun. The original gun owner reports it stolen giving the serial number and all in his police reports Should he not have the right to recieve back his stolen goods?
     
  31. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest


    Yummie Memphis and Tunica GREAT areas to carry guns.
     
  32. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    And our house is loaded with guns too. :) *and hunting rifles as well*

    Yeh there was a murder across the street here past few mos. in a city owned lot...everyone's first question...they from Memphis or HERE ? Where were the police ? Like what does it matter which county/state since ..........both counties peeps are pretty much..well ARMED !

    I like Tunica but only if in the mood for casinos...but I only won rl gp at Harrahs ! :)
     
  33. Falon of Eldor

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    Yippee! This was interesting to me so I looked up my local law and found the information below. In case you are ever in Michigan....


    Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:

    An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
    Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:
    First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CCW license suspension.
    Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CCW license revocation.
    An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    Failure to possess CCW license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.
    Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
    His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
    His or her driver license or personal identification card
    Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.
    A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.
    If a weapon is seized for failure to possess a CCW license while carrying a concealed pistol:
    Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.
    If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.
    To Ensure Safety During Police Encounters
    If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer you should:

    Keep your hands where an officer can see them.
    Cooperate fully with the police officer.
    If you have a gun with you, tell the police officer as soon as possible.
    Do not make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
    If in a vehicle at night, turn on your vehicle's dome light.
    In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized.
     
  34. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    Welp, I ended up being outvoted 6 to 1 . The classmates contend that there was corroboration enough when the police saw the exact persons described in the exact spot described and therefore the search was legal under Georgia law and the Fourth Amendment right of the individual was not broken.
     
  35. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    The standard is actually that a crime was committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. I think you probably meant to include that.
     
  36. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    After an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun, officers went to the bus stop and saw three black males, one of whom, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Apart from the tip, the officers had no reason to suspect any of the three of illegal conduct. The officers did not see a firearm or observe any unusual movements. One of the officers frisked J. L. and seized a gun from his pocket. J. L., who was then almost 16, was charged under state law with carrying a concealed firearm without a license and possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. The trial court granted his motion to suppress the gun as the fruit of an unlawful search. The intermediate appellate court reversed, but the Supreme Court of Florida quashed that decision and held the search invalid under the Fourth Amendment.

    Sound familiar? Read on.

    Held: An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person.

    SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 529 U.S. 266 FLORIDA v. J.L. CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA 98-1993 Argued: February 29, 2000 --- Decided: March 28, 2000
     
  37. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    Well shave my balls and call me sally, im going to do some research on this one.
     
  38. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    In most LE classes, academy or university, the hypothetical situations used for question development follow precedent setting case situations nearly word for word. It helps eliminate argument. Keep that in mind as things progress.
     
  39. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    Thanks for the advice there Hattori , im printing that out for class tomorrow.

    On a totally unrelated side note, im looking for a really annoying some on you tube, that says im right , im right or something along that nature, if anyone knows of a song like this could you link it to me please.
     
  40. Falon of Eldor

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    [YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4KaHZovh9Oo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4KaHZovh9Oo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]