In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.
Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by kelmo, Sep 26, 2008.
Just watching the debate. Keep it light! (I should now better) *prepares a fresh lock*
*Gets TurtleDuck on the phone*
Turtleduck needs a spot light like Batmans. *nods*
I really like how Democrats think that taxing the "rich corporations" is the way to go.
I guess no one sent them the memo that all these corporations will keep their profit margins, but only pass on the costs of the taxes to the consumers... who for the most part are the poor/middle class people.
Yay, they get more taxes and we pay more for their stuff.
Tax and spend
Tax and spend.... but whatever type of smoke and mirrors will work to get votes.
Rich cooperations, like the finance industry?
I smell Republicans. If ye can afford multiple accounts you can afford health insurance and education.
McCain kept spouting his talking points, and didn't acknowledge or deny his advisors, and the president, were giving the advice Obama suggested.
And Kelmo you must be trying to incite anger.
Nope, just some conversation. I do not get angry about politics.
Or we get taxed and still pay more for their stuff i think its time for change we dont need to go through what we jus did and for god sakes end the war whats the point anymore for real
How do you figure we get taxed more? News flash... we'd get taxed the same... not more. Actually, Dems promote more taxes and Pelosi was even called out on promoting a bill that will tax the middle class more.
And lets not also forget that the democratic congress has rejected to extend the tax cuts that we all got. Next year when the old bill expires, we all (middle class and poor) will be paying up to 60% more in income taxes because the democratic congress didn't want to keep the tax cuts going... and you think they are going to help you? They are about collecting taxes and spending the money on government programs.
And how do you guys figure McCain is anything like Bush? Because people say so during an election season after 30+ years of him not being like Bush at all? lol
I bet you believe the other guy just because he tells you all these nice promises without ever showing you that-that's what hes about or that's what he'll deliver.
And if you guys don't know politics, candidates always migrate their position during elections as a part of their campaign strategy to consolidate votes.
Obama is super left (like the opposite of Bush... ) and moved to the middle when he consolidated his parties votes.
McCain is right smack in the middle (nothing like Bush, but more like what Obama claims he is now) and moved to the right when he consolidated his parties votes.
It's all politics and most people just believe what their told to rather than researching and understanding what's really going on.
Just a note... Neither candidate felt compelled to personally attack the other. Ideals, not the person. Unless you want to pay for ads... You can't do that here.
I am kelmo and I approve of this message.
LOL Mcain is an ultra right lobbyist jus like bush as i said earlier we dont need that
Someone Intelligent that I know wrote:
How about this?
Same Intelligent Person:
None of those were personel. It was debating opinions, not the person. *SMILES*
McCain is against ANWR drilling, to contradict the previous quoted post.
As an aside I can't wait for the VP debate.. has anyone seen how Palin handled Katie Couric? She tanked, and they weren't even hard questions. McCain only chose her for the "Women deserve it no matter their credentials or knowledge" vote.
McCain hasn't even released his medical records.. with someone so old (The potential oldest elected president in US history), it means he has something to hide.
Debating politics is pointless.
Those who want to debate it have already made up their minds and you're not going to convince the other side that you're right because they've already decided you're wrong and vice versa, I think very few people discuss politics with an open mind. It usually stems from a 'That's wrong, here's TRUTH' or something along those lines.
At least that's been my experience... and too hot of a topic, people can't seem to disagree on something like this without getting personal, or at least there's always one that does.
I'm betting that Palin will destroy Biden.
Have you even picked up on how many gaffes Biden has been spewing out? Only reason it hasn't gotten a lot of attention is because hes the VP and there are bigger issues...
Kids. I normally do not announce when I go to bed. Please do not disappoint me. Discuss and attack ideas, ideals, and the spin. Do not attack each other or the candidates.
Oh yeah. Go register to vote. There is still time! Oct 6 is the cut off I think.
To our friends from other countries, bear with us. We do this ever 4 years. Some or most of you do too...
Gaffes are just misspoken phrases or thoughts said aloud. Biden actually has knowledge of issues, and none of his gaffes pertain to policy. His verbal misspeaks do nothing to diminish his policy guidelines.
Mistakes and errors and mistruths, on the other hand, are something born of a lack of knowlege and attempting to compensate with rhetoric.
Palin thinks being close to Russia is foreign policy experience, and her only evidence (This was already known and allowed by the US) was an airspace flyover by Putin. She got owned by innocent questions.. I can't wait for when she takes questions from reporters. Using her logic, North Dakota has experience with foreign leader since they are next to Canada.
Attacking candidates is what we do best here in America.. Besides you started it with saying Obama is against tea parties.
That was attacking a position. Not the man. Tricky stuff. Leave it too the pro...
All of his gaffes pertain to policies... the fact that he can't figure out what his running mates policies ARE.
When you're reciting a policy you think is the correct one and its in contradiction to what your running mate is saying... that's a pretty big oops.
Bashing Palins experience while promoting a guy whos got less, is the best thing about this presidential race. You just have no ground to stand on-on that subject. Regardless of her experience, her positions are rock solid and shes the anti-Obama element in every single way.
Every bit of criticism thrown at her makes the Dem presidential candidate pick look like an idiot. It's called politics.
And that is one savvy savvy dirty old man.
And if you couldnt get the point of my post... I'm looking forward to the VP debate... because Palin is a great speaker (not a studdering mess that Obama is without a pre-written speech in front of him) and she is a complete political TRAP for any kind of dem criticism.
This is going to be super interesting =P
Callin it as I see'sin it
I never said I was pro-Obama, only against McCain.
Anyone who switches his ideas between 2000 and 2008 to appease the Republican base, chooses a VP candidate to appeal to the base (and the women-only Hillary supporters), cancels his campaign and the debate until a bill passes to solve the financial crisis (oh did I mention no bill has passed, yet he went to the debate and resumed the campaign?), won't release his medical records, won't mention Bush by name (McCain voted 90% of the time with Bush), wants to force a permanent US military base in Iraq (the under-issue of his 100 yrs policy), wants to bomb Iran even if the US military is woefully stretched, won't support an updated GI Bill because "It might draw good soldiers away from the military" (and into a good college), and thinks more tax cuts will allow us to pay for all the things we need (Wall Street bailout, 2 wars, infrastructure, healthcare, energy source transitions)
.. is smart?
I could think of more but I am only a passive observer of politics and am tired.
I agree.. Two things you never dicuss at the dinner table or on a UO board are politics and religion.
[Edit] Thought I'd throw this in to finish the lockdown.. Jesus was a Jew, discuss[/Edit]
I still have faith. I still have locks and other stuff. See my other posts. There is no need to attack a person. Ideas OK, that is debate. Attack the person, that is another thing. We all have the right to express opinions. If you try to take that away... There are words for that.
I'm not saying McCain is the perfect candidate... (nor that I agree with all of your assertions up there in the quote) but, with the way things have worked out and the way our system is set up... it's all about picking between the lesser of two evils... and that's the only position I've presented to you.
In a system that worked properly, where people didn't need to be reminded and coersed into voting because they are lazy ****s... NOT voting in an election would have just as much, if not more meaning than voting in an election. Because by not voting, it would mean you didn't like or support any of the candidates that were offered to you.
Have a good night.
Well, the bad thing is both sides are corrupt and negligent. Neither side seemed to provide and sort of solutions to real problems. The 2 party system has failed all together. I think its time to get rid of this dinosaur government we have, and come up with a better system.
what ever happened to the barter system? lets go back to that. then you know if your actually contributing something, or a leech! you either succeed or die!
P.S I'm voting Nader....Hes the only one making any sense.
Want to make your opinion count?
I'm watching "They Live" and am getting into it so this is my last post of the night. I should also mention that the only reason I registered to vote was to get in-state tuition.
Voting was historically reserved for "informed" citizens, meaning educated land-owners.
The by-product of allowing votes for all is that we must assume they will vote. Not voting only relegates us to that sterotypical status of not meaning anything to a candidate because we do not vote, which is sad but true.
As another aside, I want more than 2 parties in on the process. That's my last word..
Kelmo lock this or regret the partisianship in the morning.
You go Sweeney!! I'm voting for Sweeney!! Sweeney for Prez!!:loser:
Down with Black Rain!!
Control your self.
I do too... and we have 4 parties to our system but because of how gay politics are... and how things were pretty much set up from the start, it's a predominantly 2 party system.
Why not? Those two subjects are normally the most fun XD. And for some reason either don't or take forever to get locked.
How come Ron Paul didn't make it??? He is a very intelligent man who definitely has the experience. I'm guessing he didn't get enough CNN media coverage. Too many issues with having a black / female for president. I watched him on the Bill Maher show and he had some truly amazing changes for the white house. Oh well.. There goes our hope!!
impeach all the crooked #^&&%#! and start over
It is more philosophical discussion, than it an attempt to dissuade or change someone's mind. It can be interesting and if it gets more folk wanting to be involved in the process, it can be a good thing.
It doesnt matter who gets elected this country will still continue on its downward spiral ...
At least in out political process, the loser does not get roasted. Literaly...
*glances at Mo*
there are problems that only see the periphery of in our two party system. if we were to expand to a multi party system (like many parliamentary systems) we see extensive problems from minority groups governing the whole.
didn't anyone pick up on maccain throwing out the " spending freeze idea"
also here is something I find fundamentally in error with Obama's position on taxation. he wants to tax people more who create jobs. this is a cyclic effect that we saw whne the Capital gains tax was raised and the minimum wage increase was forced through. peopel loose jobs when you force employers to act in a certain manner, and Gov't revenue from taxes actually goes down. I can agree with oversight and regulation in key sectors but for the general business sector Government is way to involved.
The key to making money is 2 things: saving and effective investment ( meaning new sites, employees, and product alternatives.)
Obama claims that he will drop taxes on 95% of america......only 65% pay taxes.
Being Poor should not be excuse to get a handout form the government. It should be incentive to find ways to make more money.
Yes in the Orc system of Gov't ment we eat the looser.......
Ok the excuse that raising the minimum wage will cost jobs is the lamest attempt to keep people making poverty wages. Thank god we raised it, show me proof that poor people have lost jobs because of it? I love when people that don't make minimum wage tell those that do they don't deserve to have their wages rise at least at the same rate of inflation. You want to know what will cost jobs is all the rich people on wall street that just F***ed our economy up and will just move on to the next thing to F**k up while you me and the people making minimum wage pay for it.
In san francisco minimum wage is like $10.00 an hour people don't employee less people here they just charge more for their products.
Mcain is ultra right? I think he should have a big fat D by his name.
You just went off on a tirade... gg
No one in this thread thinks raising the minimum wage in conjunction with inflation is a bad thing... almost everyone is talking about taxes.
And, one thing you might not consider in a global economy is that if our minimum wage work is retardedly high... compared to the rest of the world... the companies going to out source or replace those positions with robots or self-service devices.
Look at supermarkets? How often do you see one where you aren't persuaded or pushed to the self-checkout line?
Is something poor people can't seem to fathom. If the stuff you buy costs more money because the employer ALWAYS passes the costs onto the consumer, then alotta ****ing good that pay increase did you.
The problem is that it's all about balancing the ratio of pay to purchasing power... and no candidate ever talks about that kind of stuff because it's about pandering to the poor and garnering votes because the average person is too lazy to research and inform themselves of what things mean... or they're just too stupid to comprehend whats going on around them.
Taxes, expenses and costs of EVERYTHING are always passed onto the consumer... to think you're 'sticking it to the man' while he's always been and always will be sticking it to you... is the most ironic part of US politics.
Yay for ignorance.
troll, if you want to have a discussion thats fine but dont get upset by the fundamentals. the largest issue with small business is overhead and personal costs. And by largest issue I mean bang for your buck. the statistis are showing that less people under age 20 ( might be 21) are being hired for minimum wage jobs. This summer was particularly showing. And much of that is pointed at the minimum wage hike, youth and under age peopel have specific regulation regarding their working hours and what they can do within those hours. The answer is explained to me that why higher 2 people for 10$ an hour for 20-25 week when you can have an older person who argublly has lesser restrictions for 40 hours at 10$. Now when you keep raising minimum wages you upset a timeless equation
profit-> wages (and accompanying taxes) + product + Misc costs (which could be rent, bills etc.).
now the basics of what your saying is that raise the minimum wage and then raise price of goods. well thats all well and good if all the goods are with in your control. But what happens when you raise prices and overall sales drop. then the profit margin shrinks more, and who is the person who is more invested in the process. By this who deserves to take a hit the guy who owns the business or the guy who works there? Does the owner have to eat it (profit wise) so that his employees will live better? Is it their right to demand a higher wage? My problem has always been that people who want to increase minimum wage feel they are entitled to stay in their respective roles and still flourish while the peopel who are paying them have to be inventive, and find new ways to make money. I am sorry I will always side with business as theyare the providers of income they have the idea, the framework, the stuff set up for you to work for them.
I agree with you that many places can raise prices,but that can only go so far. The overall way to manage escalating overhead prices is to 'make do with less'.
I am not a HIGH wage earner I am above minimum wage and my company had taht exact issue to raise prices or cut personnel. they chose to cut personnel (16 peopel) and then used reorginized our hours eliminating programmend overtime (on paper that is) giving me a 16% paycut. that was used as a tactic to scare other peopel to quit (thus saving money on severance packages). But now too many people have quit and they are having productivity issues and are having to look at hiring again. I am looking for work, I am flying to denver to interview with a facility there.
So maybe that is my problem, when I see a wage loss, I don't epect the company to fix it. I do it myself, I believe in self determination that I have the most amount of control over my actions and the accompanying results......
*looks up at long post*
meeb guin bak tu skratchin*
Minium wage is a joke. Where do people work for min wage? You can't even get Mexicans to work for min wage.
Who do you think are working all the low end jobs? Why would an ammerican kid work? When mommy and daddy buy them every thing so they can sit home and play X box all day. I haven't had a American kid works for me in over 8 years.
Ive been working since the age of 15..
Full time during the summers.
Hasn't necessarily been for minimum wage, but Ive worked.
(just here for a short visit)
still lots of Paul signs around the neighborhood here, and yeah, if the media would keep their opinions outta these races we'd all be a bit better off
If a employer needs to cut jobs then he wasn't getting maximum productivity in the first place. I will never buy the whole argument. If minimum wage was directed at a single business then yes it would be BS, but it isn't everyone will get the same increase.
this is a moot point they did raise the minimum wage because 5.35 an hour is rediculous. they didn't raise it for 10 years! I think they should at least raise it to meet up with inflation every 5 years or so.
Hey I make no where near minimum wage so it's not like i'm going off on a tirade for myself I just happen to have a little thing called empathy.
Sorry if I don't feel sorry for a business owner making six figure salaries potentially making a little less money when someone working for him makes 5 dollars an hour.