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Paladin, Pure or Bushido?

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by DreadLord Lestat, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. DreadLord Lestat

    DreadLord Lestat Social Media Liaison
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    Okay, after reading Hirikawa's article on Paladin, it made me rethink my build.

    My current build is

    120 Macing
    120 Chiv
    100 Bushido (may take Bushido to 80 and bump Heal and Parry to 100)
    100 Tactics
    100 Anatomy
    90 Heal
    90 Parry

    I am just finishing him and now I am looking at her template. It would be easy to stone bushido and take the remaining skills to 120.

    I know I will get varying answers and will look at all viewpoints and make a decision. I have a Sampire that I enjoy but want something different. That is also why I went macing instead of swords or fencing.

    Pros? Cons? Ideas? Thoughts? Discuss....

    :thumbup:
     
  2. hirikawa

    hirikawa Journeyman

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    Maybe Ring and Bracelet with at last +30 skill points on each? Problem might be place for DCI, HCI etc, but with proper legendaries on suit..
     
  3. Vor

    Vor Grand Inquisitor
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    Switched my order out from ABC to Pure Chiv Archer a few weeks back. Enjoy it much more than I did the Bushido template.
     
  4. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I run a vampire paladin, which works well.
     
  5. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    If you are running Bushido...you dont really want max DCI for obvious reasons
     
  6. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    A mark of travesty with bushido and parry...as well as some skills on your jewels should let you tweak those skills significantly. Drop the significance of DCI and max out HCI if possible. You know the routine better then most of us.
     
  7. DreadLord Lestat

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    What I am really wanting to know is which template would be stronger to solo or 2 man a lot of the bosses and masters. Before I invest in a suit and subtle changes to my current template, is it worth it? Or, should I invest in scrolls, dump bushido, and go with the pure paladin. I have a sampire and he is not as strong as I had hoped he would be. I do appreciate all suggestions so far, I am looking at everything. :)
     
  8. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    I can solo more with a "pure paladin" then I can with my sampire. Not even close actually.
    I have never heard of anyone soloing Blackthorn Captains....and the "Pure Paladin" I made did it first time out and I didnt even have all the stats from the official template.

    for me sampires are a decent tank and I can mindlessly run mine and only partially pay attention. But for soloing....hands down...the pure paladin. But I will tell you this...it isnt a mindless template....soloing stuff is fun...but lots of work! :)
     
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  9. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I have solo'd about 250 BT arties worth of them with my vampire paladin. Some are really quite easy, some are more time-consuming than anything else (macers when they spawn with 3x the HP).

    Worth noting though is that when the times comes to kill the necromancer or assassin... I swap necro for healing and go pure paladin, so take that for what you will.
     
  10. hirikawa

    hirikawa Journeyman

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    Blackthorn Masters is very easy place for Pure Paladin. I don't remember having issues with any of them even with less advanced version of my template (without all 120 skills, 0 fc, 0 fcr etc.). Necromancer and Assasin - for them i needed to switch Broadsword without HLL. For bugged Masters with 3x HP Broadsword second special move works fine "Crushing Blow" with CW.

    Overall i think Sampires might work better on Champion Spawns and Paladin on Bosses or EM events, and all places when life leech is not possible. Speaking about check how much Paladin can heal:

    120 Healing and 120 Anaromy and Enhanced Bandages gives 44-73 HP per Bandie, at 140 Dex it's every 4 sec. So average it's 0-18

    HP per 1 sec (0 is there because Bandage can fail, if Bandage will work minimum posssible HP is 10)
    My Broadsword base damage is 51-67, with EOO, Slayer and AI hits it leads to 153-201 damage. So average it does 122-161 damage

    per 1 sec. 81HLL weapon doing 122 damage it is 0-29 HP leeched and 81HLL weapon doing 161 damage it is 0-39 HP leeched.

    So what we got:
    Bandage minimum 10 HP per 1 sec and maximum 18 HP per 1 sec if Bandage will work
    Weapon minimum: 0-29 HP per 1 sec and maximum 0-39HP per 1 sec if Weapon HLL will work

    Overall minimum HP i regenerate per 1 sec is 0 HP
    Overall maximum HP i regenerate per 1 sec is 57 HP
    Overall Average HP i regenerate per 1 sec is 28 HP

    It's complicated to count, and as we can see sometimes we can regenerate 0 HP for some hits. Also HP we regenerate will be lower when we deal only 120 damage (without a Slayer weapon) Due the fact we can heal 0 HP for some time it is unpredictable template, might be hard for some because we need to keep attention on a lot of details here (Removing Curses). But in other hand as we can see above it can heal a lot of HP when math "work's" and that's true Paladin Power. Also check out that i didn't count HPR there which i also use (7 points)

    btw. correct me if i done some mistakes on my maths here i counted it really fast hehe.
     
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  11. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    sorry for any confusion I meant I have never heard of anyone soloing the masters with a plain sampire.
     
  12. Yadd of Legends

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    When you soloed masters with your pure paladin, I wonder if you had a suit nearly as good as the one posted above? Getting a suit anywhere near that is really intimidating. I'm wondering if a pure paladin in a regular imbued suit would do any better than a sampire in the same suit.
     
  13. Yadd of Legends

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    BTW, there is one master a sampire can solo - the archer. I took down dozens of them during the town invasions. Harder in Blackthorn where you don't have room to get them alone.
     
  14. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    My suit is made mostly of arties...Inquisitor Resolution, tinkered legs, Glad's collar, mace and shield, despicable, Crimmy, blackthorn's robe all plate for stam loss protection...with a few crafted plate pieces I imbued to make it all fit.

    with pots I have 145 HP and 163 dex and 100 Mana.... I have 1/3 casting and I have swing speed of 1.5 secs

    It definitely needs some tweaking....but I am impressed with the possibilities
     
  15. Yadd of Legends

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    OK, so your suit was closer to the OP template than the mid-level imbued sampire suit, thanks
     
  16. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Against Masters Paladin is much better than Sampire. Regular imbued suit is enough. And it is even better if you replace Parrying by Ninjitsu.
     
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  17. Yadd of Legends

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    Well, that's encouraging, because changing the template would be a lot easier that changing the armor with my budget. I'm not too familiar with ninjitsu - please explain how it's used here
     
    #17 Yadd of Legends, Aug 2, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  18. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    When fighting the melee masters, you make full and liberal use of mirror images. That's the trick, in that scenario at least.
     
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  19. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Mirror images are good against almost any master.
     
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  20. TimberWolf

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    hmmmmmm have to try this
     
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  21. Yadd of Legends

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    Most interesting. Do you use any other ninja spells against the masters?
     
  22. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    You can use Focus attack to double any Hit effects, such as Lightning and leeches. Or Forrms such as Cat/Dog for 40 HPR, Unicorn to block Poison, Ki-Rin for Stam Regen, Wolf/Bake for extra HP and mounted speed. You could also use Lethal/Dark Glow/Parasitic Poison Darts/Stars.
     
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  23. Kayne.

    Kayne. Journeyman
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    On that note, are those special poisons used often? I remember when they came out I thought they were the coolest ideas ever, although rarely see them used
     
  24. Yadd of Legends

    Yadd of Legends Certifiable
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    I want to start working on this template but am hesitant to put time into it until I see what changes the new expansion brings.
     
  25. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    The new expansion is still months away, and then it may take months before you collect that cool new item or whatever... I was thinking the same way about building a new suit and moving some skills around; but I decided to say F it and move forward. If I need to assemble a new suit in 8 months, so be it.
     
  26. Mikeltin5

    Mikeltin5 Journeyman

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    Personally, I use the darkglow on my nox/fencer/archer. Of course its pvp...but darkglow damage is based on the distance from a target. I use mine when someone is running away to heal. The greater the distance the more damage. So it works to my benefit and it interrupts their aids/pots. If I was strictly melee...id pick parasitic for closer range damage. Obviously not in the realm of pvm convo...but ppl do use the special poisons
     
  27. Yadd of Legends

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    QUOTE="Tuan, post: 2578502, member: 166682"]The new expansion is still months away, and then it may take months before you collect that cool new item or whatever... I was thinking the same way about building a new suit and moving some skills around; but I decided to say F it and move forward. If I need to assemble a new suit in 8 months, so be it.[/QUOTE]
    Now you're persuading me - as if I don't too much time building new characters already :rolleyes: . Are you going parry or ninja?
     
  28. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I am a Vampiric Paladin. 120 Anat, Chiv, Tact, Swords; 100 parry, Necro; 80 resist (some on jewelry of course). When my suit is finished (today I hope all I need to do is imbue my jewelry and I think I have all ingredients and refine it) I will post it.
     
  29. Yadd of Legends

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    Have you tried that template against Blackthorn masters?
     
  30. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I've done some 100+ of them with it, yes.

    Of course, it doesn't work against the Assassin or Necromancer, for those I run a pure paladin (swap necro for heal). The necros then fall easy, the assassins a bit harder. I just did one last night that had the 0 resist but 3x HP quirk, what a PITA because of getting DP regularly I had to run off to heal up a few times. Its not so bad when they don't have the 35K(guesstimate) hp though because they just die so darn quick.
     
  31. Yadd of Legends

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    Sounds good - I've done about 100 with my abc archer but am getting tired of the running around - pardon my ignorance, but if you have to swap necro for healing for some of them, why not just run with healing instead of necro all the time?
     
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  32. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Well, for one, my template is reasonably unique - I've never seen anyone here talking about my mix. You see the sampires, you see the bush paladins and true paladins, but I'm the only one that I've see running a Vampire Paladin.

    I have a well thought out reason for it too. Variance. I don't like it.

    What do I mean there...

    OK, lets compare the pure paladin vs my temp as you're suggesting. I'll call the pure paladin 6x120 in WS, Anat, Tact, Chiv, Parry, Heal.

    Assumptions: similar suits(HLD on head slot), assume either simple slayer, or super + EoO. My AI damage is 153 - 201, so we will assume that too for an average hit of 172. Lets also assume that we hit every time (I've gotten 33 in a row against a UEV once), because both builds have the same WS anyway so neither mitigates THAT problem. This also means that the mob has about a 33% chance to hit us.

    A major difference between the two builds is the weapons.

    A pure paladin: 100HLL, 81HML, 50HSL, SuperSlayer, DI. (it is possible to not have DI on the weapon, but I've never seen anyone post a suit that relies on no DI on weapon)
    My weapon: 100HML, 50HSL, SuperSlayer, HLA, DI

    Lets look at 21.25 second long windows of battle. Why 21.25s? Well, that's the least common multiple between 4.25 and 1.25 so that we get an even number of swings and an even number of heals. Why 4.25 and not 4? Because you need that extra tick to let the aids take effect...

    This window gives us 5 bandaids and 17 swings. We will assume that we're lucky (I am not...) and that we land HLD on the first hit, and it stays in place the whole time which means we're reasonably likely to actually hit every time.

    My average healing will be:
    # hits * .2 * avg damagee done = 17 * .2 * 172 = 585

    The Pure Paladin:
    # hits * .15 * damage done + # bandaids * avg per heal = 17 * .15 * 172 + 4 * 56 = 439 + 224 = 663.

    Wow... that's a big difference. Pure Paladin is for sure better, right?

    Well... not so fast. We're also likely to get hit during this time, and hit hard - otherwise this whole discussion is moot.

    The simplest calculation is a pure melee fight. This means that we're getting hit ~6 times in this 21 seconds. For the sake of argument we will assume it happens evenly distributed. Lets also assume that what we are fighting hits for 30 damage on average past our armor. Plenty of the melee masters are like this (yes I know no slayer there but I can't think of what else hits hard and often and has a slayer, Stygian Dragon maybe?).

    My healing is unchanged taking into account getting hit, the pure paladin is not, since each hit will drop their bandaids effectiveness by 35%.
    New equation: 17 * .15 * 172 + 4 * 56 * .65 = 439 + 146 = 585.

    Now here is where I have to say that I am pretty amazed that the numbers ended up exactly the same. I didn't plan that, and when I saw the answer from the calculator, I rolled my eyes. I will, however, say that being a developer myself, this is the kind of thing that I would think about when designing the system, so ... kudos to the devs, I guess.

    Now that we have established that the "reasonably expected healing rate" of both templates is the same, we can talk a bit more about the variance aspect.

    Vamp form ALWAYS heals 20% of damage done. 100% HLL heals between 0 and 30% to get you to the 15% average, healing will heal between 43 and 70.

    At this point, I assume I've already lost some people, and if I go any deeper I will lose most of the rest.

    Lets just say that I think the likelihood that randomness in the amount healed by the paladin is less than that of the Vamp and that it leads to a death robe is greater than that it works the other way. Especially when we factor in that I run resist and the pure paladin doesn't.

    This also doesn't take into account the situation where we do not have a slayer and we need to rely much more heavily on that HML to keep us in AIs.
     
  33. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    Tuan, I'm still struggling to see the point of 120 Chivalry, over having it at 90. Ignoring suit requirements (if relying on DF for example), assuming DI/swing/HCI capped, would you not be massively improving your defense by increasing Parry/Resist, and losing only a tiny amount of damage from lowering Chivalry? I can't imagine on a setup using a shield that you need DF, and recall from some admittedly unreliable tests on TC that the difference between 120 and 90 Chivalry damage wise with EoO was a few points at best.
     
  34. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I agree with you that you'll rarely see the 'full' effect of bandaids, but you also rarely see the full effect of any leech based template either. This is where the variance problem comes in.

    Why do you call wearing a shield as such a disadvantage?

    The 'normal' sampire will use a 2h weapon, so would ether need to use a property on balanced, or swap to a 1h to quaff pots - the same as 'disarm wait .25s quaff wait rearm'. I view the 5 imbue slots on the shield as valuable. Granted I will parry a few % lower than a full sampire with a 2h weapon, and not at all during the .5s that I am shieldless to quaff pots, but I can always theoretically take a step away to quaff pots...
     
  35. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    None of those are disadvantages of wearing a shield., those are all disadvantages of not having bushido. Some of them have 0.0 to do with shield or not (feint, momentum strike).

    If I have bushido and parry and I use a 1h weapon, I will parry with the weapon. Does this happen even when wearing a shield too, or ONLY when using a weapon + empty hand?

    I will admit that things that don't have slayer, well they cause me a lot of trouble, and the solution for that is bushido, but just swapping bushido in doesn't help me much because of the shield issue. So I need a 2nd set of weapons and jewelry to easily transition back and forth that I've been too lazy to make.

    I could, in theory, mitigate part of the issue of taking a lot of damage by simply leeching more. Lets say I were to run VE + 81 HLL on a broadsword. Then even against something without a slayer I'm going to leech min of ~22, max of ~55, avg of ~37 per hit even without bushido damage bonus.

    Or, I sacrifice resist for SS and then I can run Curse Weapon, or I sacrifice resist for healing and I run VE and heal myself with bandages.

    The problem with all of this of course, is misses. 3 misses in a row is a problem. Evasion would mitigate part of that, as would getting some healing from bandages. I suspect that 3 misses in a row is nearly as big a problem for the sampire as for the VE paladin. Now, perhaps the bushido paladin and pure paladin templates can get around this issue better.
     
  36. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    The "arm disarm left hand" macro works to unequip current shield and re-equip last shield, I've been using it for ... 15ish years across both clients.

    What are "the fel issues". I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I went to a trammel dungeon for which there is a Fel counterpart, so I might simply be totally ignorant here.

    I am not sure what I can't do BECAUSE I'm in VE. There are some things that I've struggled with, mostly because I went in with a poorly conceived plan. I can't do Semidar when I'm in VE, but I think that's because my character is male, not because he's a vampire.

    Maybe my problem is that I am a big Three Days Grace fan...
    "At night I feel like a vampire
    It's not right
    I just can't give it up
    I'll try to get myself higher
    Let's go
    We're gonna light it up
    Tonight we start the fire
    Tonight we break away

    Break!
    Away from everybody
    Break!
    Away from everything
    If you can't stand the way this place is
    Take, yourself to higher places"
     
  37. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I tell you how to set up a macro that you didn't know existed, and it's trolling?

    I was just making a joke (at no one's expense) by quoting the song lyric. Though at guess at 6 posts we'd reached the theoretical maximum on "number of posts where people can disagree without insulting each other".

    Oh well.

    I did think of some things that don't work because of VE: anything with the tainted aura. I really should have thought of that already, since I specifically mention that I swap to pure paladin for those fights already in this thread.
     
  38. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    I find all other spells completely useless.
    Since I forced to be on foot to use Mirror Images I also use Animal Form when I need run away fast.
     
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  39. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    1. When you miss three times in a row it doesn't matter how much HP do you leach. But if you have Healing you can step back and heal by bandages.

    2. Sampire without mana is usually a dead sampire because it can't heal by spell and can't use AI (can't do enough damage to leach enough HP).

    3. It doesn't matter how much damage you can heal over time. It is important how fast and/or how safe you can heal back damage you have taken. If you have Healing you can step back and heal by bandages. And pure 4/6 paladin is able to heal itself fast using chivalry spells.
     
  40. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    There is a difference. You can swap to 1h and EP jewels at the same time. You can't disarm and swap jewels with the same command. So when I use shield I prefer not disarm but switch to 2h balanced weapon.
     
  41. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    When you have bushido you your parrying becomes useless... but you can switch it to ninjitsu... so bushido + ninjitsu + shield

    Assume that the only difference between templates is 100 Healing vs 100 Necro...
     
  42. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I think you are saying that you cannot go from 1H + shield + combat jewelry to 1h (the same one in fact) + no shield + EP jewelry with 1 macro. If that is what you're saying, this isn't accurate.

    If you mean something else, can you please clarify?
     
  43. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    1) Why can't I step back and heal with close wound?

    2) No mana doesn't bode well for any template, though one with healing skill is probably the best equipped to survive no mana, or some scenario like Slasher.

    3) What prevents me from wearing 4/6 and healing just as fast as a pure paladin's spells?
     
  44. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Macro consists of commands. Each command need some time. So amount of commands is important.
     
  45. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I agree. I've played for too long, when macros consisted of only a single command. You always remember your first time, as they say in the USA.

    The semantics being granted, I am able to make the swap with a single command.
     
  46. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    There are a lot of reasons that may not allow you to do this:
    - without FC/FCR your spells fizzle
    - since you need to stay on one place to cast spell you need to run away farther (and your opp is fast and/or the room is small you just can't do it)
    - if you poisoned you need to cure first, and your cure spell may fizzle few times due to ranged damage and tick effects (spikes, bleed,...)
    - you may be at low mana (and some monsters - like dreadhorn - keep mana drain you even when you 'step back')

    Healing is much more safer. And if you want to use chivalry spells more effectively you need to have (4/6 + RS) or (2/6 + protection).
     
  47. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Just try to imagine how you can add 4/6 to your current suit. By property weight It is similar to adding 80 skill points.

    You template already have something like +40 skill points. You hardly is able to add 4/6 without scarifying them... so you must to drop some skill... and you can't drop RS if you want to use 4/6...
     
  48. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    This is true, but it's not unique to this particular template, and that's the point I have been trying to make.
     
  49. hirikawa

    hirikawa Journeyman

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    According to http://www.uoguide.com/Five_on_Friday_-_January_25,_2008 120 Healing and 120 Anatomy will give 44-73 with enhanced bandages. Not very important discussion but i wanted to point this out.