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Passive Detect Changes

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Bruin, Jun 8, 2010.

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Should passive detect changes be implemented quickly, and how?

Poll closed Jun 15, 2010.
  1. Yes, implement passive detect ASAP by copying Prodo shard PERMANENTLY.

    29.2%
  2. Yes, implement passive detect ASAP by copying Prodo shard THEN/LATER adapt it to the Siege ruleset.

    13.8%
  3. No, implement passive detect only when it's properly adapted to the Siege Ruleset.

    21.5%
  4. No, leave passive detect off of Siege (keep things they way they are now).

    35.4%
  1. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Just trying to gauge Siege's wishes on fixes to passive detect, on whether it should be a quick change to copy prodo or not.

    Explanation of options:

    Option #1. If you want Siege to have prodo shard passive detect rules FOREVER, vote #1.
    Option #2. If you want Siege to have prodo shard passive detect rules today, because it's better than what we have. Then we figure out how to properly implement passive detect within the spirit of Siege, and later get that implemented, vote #2.
    Option #3. If you want passive detect rules to change, but want to wait until it is we decide exactly how we want it within the spirit of Siege to implement before making any changes, vote #3.
    Option #4. If you like things the way they are now with no passive detect, vote #4.
     
  2. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    Leave it off. Find another way to deal with stealth tamers. The great thing about Siege for me is I can play the thief class here and the thief template is crowded enough as it is without forcing 120 stealth into it.

    My .02.
     
  3. Lorddog

    Lorddog Crazed Zealot
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    maybe you should tell us what the prodo passive detect exactly is...

    Lorddog
     
  4. HaHa

    HaHa Guest

    Make passive detect on siege now!

    [​IMG]

    Too many damn stealthers on this shard.
     
  5. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    QFT
     
  6. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    Stop half assing your profession and work it up via items or real skill. You have Imbue, you have tons of items, I think you can manage.
     
  7. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    Implement full passive detect and even i would have to consider playing U.O again :)
     
  8. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    Wow...That's what I'm talking about. Am I killing you or hugging you? :grouphug:
     
  9. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    Don't worry it wont ever happen too many "pvpers" need the stealth crutch.
     
  10. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    I run 120 ninja and magery. Add in the other thief template skills and let me know how that adds up for you. Adding passive detect is just a way for you "use a hammer to fix it" types to get more victims.

    I don't have the computer, connection, or skills to engage in PvP combat. I prefer another style of play. Don't try to change that just because you want more double-click-kill victims.

    How about adding in passive detect ONLY for those with detect hidden at 80+? I think that's fair.
     
  11. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    No passive detect on Siege. Those of us who utilize hide and stealth have invested the points and you guys are looking for the easy way to deal with it when you could train detect for just 100 skill points.

    Whats that? Oh... It hinders your template you say?

    The points we've invested in hide and stealth hinder ours as well.

    Some of us choose to play offensive templates and some choose to play defensive templates.

    You're asking to have your cake and eat it too. lol
     
  12. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    Pretty much.

    Would you be willing to go back to the way stealth worked before they changed it? Counting steps, no running, can't stealth unless you use the skill a few seconds after hiding?
     
  13. HoldenCaulfield

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Crimson Savages CLAN

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    Yes can someone explain please...
     
  14. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to ask...who would want to have cake but NOT eat it?
     
  15. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    :lol: We've did the GM Detect at all the IDOCS we've recently done, it pretty much sucks.

    Also, you say it hinders you? Really?! How so? It hinders the stealth tamer to all kill - hide??? It hinders the Stealth Bok's DEATH STRIKE DAMAGE?! Reaaaaaalllly? It hinders your ability to SMOKE BOMB right after a successful Detect Hidden? Rofl.

    You have to be kidding me on that one. Hide-Stealth-Ninjitsu does not hinder an offensive template in the least! You guys need to get the hell off that band wagon real quick...

    @ Shh! I'm by far a "double clicker" aka a click and stick player. I can play it all, can you?

    This is what I will agree with in your statement, seeing how you guys are bogus for saying it HINDERS you in the field :lol: - For your 75 Stealth, 75 Detect Hidden should be all that's needed to passive detect. If you have 100 Stealth, 100 Detect Hidden should be what's needed. If you have 120 Stealth, you should still have the chance to be passively detected, but dropped severely.

    Thanks for playing!
     
  16. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    But, but, but i only want change that's in my favour :(
     
  17. John Connelly

    John Connelly Journeyman
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    Then you should be crying to have GM Detect improved, not other templates nerfed.
     
  18. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    Really? So you can negate my 200 point investment for 100 points? Yeah, sounds well thought out and wouldn't at all render thieves even more difficult to play. You know, for all of your arrogance and smart-ass comments, you really aren't that bright, are you?
     
  19. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    Looks like the only ones asking for CHANGE in their favor are you and Unforsaken. Instead of making countless templates and play styles even more difficult just to make yours easier, how about looking for a true compromise and balance?
     
  20. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    Shh! Thief Template:

    100 Stealing
    100 Hide
    55 Stealth
    120 Ninjitsu
    95 Wrestle
    120 Magery
    70 Spellweave
    60 Meditation


    You'd have to tell me what exactly you want to accomplish, because I can think of any thief template you want-Just remember, you can't have your cake and eat it too!!!

    Items: *Assuming non-factions here*
    +20 Cloak replica (Siege Bless)
    Cursed Shadow Dancer Leggings
    Heart of the Lion
    Sammy Helm
    Event Spell book-10 DCI, SDI, 5 LMC, 2 FCR (blessed)
    Totem of the Void
    Imbued Sleeves, Gloves, Gorget-HPI, MI, LMC, MR would be nice
    1/2 Ring & Bracelet-50 total skill points

    That would be a funny template. Pixie pwnage, DS, Fukiyas, Shurikens, Disarm/Stun, Mindblast, Poison...I think that's more then enough to handle your own.

    Be creative. Stop looking back and start looking forward. I know you guys like to pretend that my opinions don't exist, but they do and I can actually back them up, can you???

    I've played passive detect shards, I've had no problems with them at all. You guys want to talk about easy? This server is supposed to be the harder server, the more SKILLED server, the VET server-Yet you guys want to keep it on easy mode for 80%+ of the server?! Rofl, nice oxymoron there...
     
  21. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    You guys continuously read past statements as if they aren't there. I'm sorry that you're horrid at this game and need the crutch. I'm sorry that I'm skilled enough to play your template WITH passive detect and still be on top. I'm sorry that you cry nerf, yet have been proved wrong on everything you say.

    p.s. I'm sorry.
     
  22. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    This entire post is ridiculous, lol. You're a horrible thief might I add.
     
  23. Urin

    Urin Journeyman
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    Doesn't your 200 point investment negate my 720 point investment if I don't have detect? You're oversimplifying; you have much more utility - in both pvp and pvm - from those 200 points than you do from the 100 points in detect - currently, and even after passive might be implemented.
     
  24. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    My template is almost as crowded as the one you posted. It's unconventional because that's why I like UO. I don't have to play a CLASS, I can play a CHARACTER. And yes, the template you posted looks interesting, however I can't afford that gear. Well, ok I can afford that gear but I can't afford too many sets of it. A death or two and I'd be all done.

    I've played passive detect shards too and they suck. Thieves are next to worthless already with insurance but add in passive detect and they are good for little other than crate theft. Sorry, not fun. And it's funny to me that you are claiming you want things more SKILLED yet you are asking for a boost to your playstyle with no investment in SKILL. That's a true oxymoron.

    Instead of rendering multiple playstyles nearly impossible to play overnight, how about looking at real changes that make sense? Instead of the EASY prodo-shard bandaid of passive detect, how about trying to fix the issue? Or is the issue really thieves and defensive tactics used by crafters and other non-pvpers? Because if it is then we're miles apart.
     
  25. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    I love Urin and he/she will be having my babies. :gun:

    p.s. Shh! I'm pretty much done with you bud, horrible thief, learn your profession. You hated the passive detect servers for their insurance (Duh, thief on prodo = ********). If you hated them for the passive detect, that's because you were too lazy, cheap, or stubborn to fit 120 Stealth. Good day!
     
  26. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    I haven't played U.O in about 2 years maybe longer but i do know that stealth becoming so easy and powerfull killed more pvp balance than any other change and ultimately led to more people moving on. I don't want anything in someone's favour i want it balanced, turing on passive detect still leaves hiding and stealth useful for pvp and still amazing for pve, sounds like balance? Even reverting hiding and stealth to it's original incantation would produce balance but no one really wants that because the only word in everyone's vocabulary around here is "me".
     
  27. John Connelly

    John Connelly Journeyman
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    Eh?? :sad2:
     
  28. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    A SERIOUS Discussion about Passive Detect:

    My understanding of how prodo shard passive detect works is that ALL player characters have a random chance at revealing a stealther near them, passively. I'm not sure what the percentage chance is, but I'd venture to guess around 30-40%. Please someone post the correct information.

    My belief of a fair compromise to passive detect on Siege is as follows.

    Hide + Stealth is not an ACTIVE skill, it is a passive skill. You don't have to click 'stealth' everytime you want to stealth, it just happens. Detect + Tracking IS an Active skill, everytime you want to detect something or track something you have to press a button. If you never press a button, then you are not using detect/tracking.

    As hide/stealth and detect/tracking are essentially counter skills, they exist to combat each other. When hide/stealth can be used passively and detect/tracking can only be used actively, that gives a heavy edge to hide/stealth.

    I do not think a person with 0 detect/tracking should be able to passively, or even actively detect a person with 100 hide/stealth (possibly with JOAT but that should be like, 2%). However, if character A with 100 hide/stealth is standing next to Character B with 100 tracking/detect, and Character A attempts to hide or stealth, shouldn't they only have a 50% chance to succeed? I mean if I have 100 swords and you have 100 fencing, don't I have a 50% chance 'to hit' you? Both skills should play off of each other. Right now they don't.

    Therefore I'll put forth one previous suggestion I've seen from Chad and a suggestion I've made before:

    My proposal:

    Chad's proposal:

    I kinda like chad's proposal better, but don't think there is the coding for a line-of sight within the game so would be much more difficult to implement.

    Nonetheless, all of these proposals pretty much state that passive detect only really works 100 track/detect versus 100 hide/stealth (with correspondingly lower success rates at lower skill). A person with 0 track/detect should have minimal, if any ability at all to reveal a 100 hide/stealther.

    I believe most of us would agree that a 100 track/detect person should be able to passively reveal a 100 hide/stealth person to an extent. We probably just don't agree on mechanically how that would happen.
     
  29. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    So what you're saying is we should all just stand there and slug it out? You are oversimplifying, not me. I am not the one wishing to destroy all other playstyles just because I can't deal with stealth tamers.

    I'm a thief. I prey on the unsuspecting and, yes, even the weak. I rely on surprise. I do not wish to go toe-to-toe with anyone. That's not my template (or my style). Now, having invested 200 (or 320 if you count ninjitsu for smokebombs and animal form) I stealth up next to a mark and *poof* I'm revealed by a geared up dexer with no points invested to do so. If you want a shard of nothing but people standing toe-to-toe duking it out, that's what you'll get.

    I might be biased but I think the different classes of characters is what makes this game fun. I enjoy trying to survive amongst all of the better equipped, more skilled players on this shard. Passive detect puts yet another check-mark in an already tilted playing field for me. I enjoy the challenge, I don't enjoy the (nearly) impossible.
     
  30. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    Just further proves my observations. You have no idea of the template I run yet you would force me to run a "cookie cutter" template because it's easier for you. I'm up for a change, just not one that is imbalanced. Invest the points if you want the chance to detect.
     
  31. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    120 Stealth is your friend. Learn it, live it, love it. I would even go as far as saying; @ 120 Stealth, 100 Hide-You could not be passively detected. If you come up against 100 Detect Hidden-You could be (Then discuss % here).

    Stealth tamer not affected (will have to put more thought and effort into their movement, cry me a river)

    Stealth bok/Melee/Archer not affected (will have to put more thought and effort into their movement...)

    Thief not affected (if running 120 Stealth, which you could do with items, but I think if we go this route, you should have to have 120 real skill)

    .02

    p.s. Shh! is still a horrible thief and my template I wrote up was definitely not a cookie cutter.
     
  32. T'Challa

    T'Challa Certifiable
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    Just wondering...

    Does anyone know if the reveal magery spell still figures in detect to the formula? If so, does anyone know the formula?
     
  33. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    You'll never know what kind of thief I am because you carry crap on you. Carry something tasty and see if you can catch me because I only take something worth taking :heart:

    P.S. Your avatar annoys me. It's "YOU'RE" not "YOUR". Too bad because it's funny otherwise. Carry on.

    P.P.S. Your template was NOT cookie cutter, just expensive. I thought I expressed that clearly.
     
  34. HoldenCaulfield

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Crimson Savages CLAN

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    For prodo shards, what are the chances of passively detecting someone who has invested 120 in stealth?
     
  35. Critical Gaming

    Critical Gaming Lore Master
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    I don't think anyone knows, lol.

    Wouldn't hurt to make a thread asking - in Uhall - what the formula is. Otherwise this is going to be yet another 9 page useless thread.
     
  36. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    P.P.P.S My avatar was found on the interwebz and you forgot to add the ' in I'M.

    P.P.P.P.S. You're cheap and afraid to lose pixels, item insurance sure does seem like your friend.

    P.P.P.P.P.S. You're still a horrible thief and I've expressed that very clearly and wtf do you want off my mage besides a faction rune/BoS, Srsly! My melee'er has a nice warfork, but you're too ****ty of a thief to get it!

    P.P.P.P.P.P.S. While we're on the subject of ****ty thieves, isn't it great how they can steal an item and die because they're that horrible and still keep stolen item? H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S
     
  37. Anyone that votes to leave hide/stealth the way it is or to wait until it can be "properly implemented" should have all their accounts with hide/stealth banned immediately and their IP's blocked, their computers impounded and be fitted for mittens--the kind that don't come off.
     
  38. Shh!

    Shh! Lore Master
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    Don't see where I did that but a typo>misspelling. Thanks though.

    Your dexer has had crap on him when I've checked.

    No, that's an unintended "feature" of UO that should have been fixed long ago. I promise that I'll give your fork back if a) you really get the guts to carry it and b) you actually stop talking long enough to kill me. :hug:

    P.P.P.P.P.P.P.S. Someone disagreed with you in another thread. Quick, go get all condescending and adolescent with them!
     
  39. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    An even better change to Siege would be to delete all greater dragons and dreadmares.
     
  40. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    QFT anddddddddddddddddddd take out dismount. Siege should be the roughneck of PvP. **** all this vagina dismount gank bs. I say if you delete gdragons, dreadmares, and dismount-We could leave stealth the way it is, because that would render you people CLUELESS.
     
  41. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    :lol:

    Someone needs a hug!!!

    :grouphug:
     
  42. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    On the other hand, that would render some templates, GODLIKE. We can't have that either. Tying bola's to tactics is a good idea. That would minimize the dismounting to some degree, but with the removal of the more godly pets [Greater Dragon & Dreadmare] I think that would be a nice balance.

    I have some other ideas, but I'll save that for a more serious discussion on the issue.
     
  43. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Why are there 3 options to implementing passive detect? LOL

    I mean, really? Just put it in... There doesn't need to be no uniqueness to Siege passive detect. If its possible to implement, then do it.


    Should have just been a simple yes or no.
     
  44. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    You don't have more skill points invested than him. The way I see it is you have 100 hiding. He has 100 dectect. That means he's got as many skill points invested to detect you as you've got to hide from him. Your skill in stealthing does not factor into being undetectable.

    So if you wanted to, you can invest 120 into hiding and be harder to catch... That's about the only way you can have more points invested than him.
     
  45. Førsaken

    Førsaken Guest

    Did that really just get typed?! Wtf would be godlike if dismount didn't exist? It would mean more straight up PvP, none of this ****ing grabass, pussyfooting around **** until you get more dismounters.

    And BTW, I don't even get the chance to bola, that would be ******** seeing how I'm always fighting the STEALTH BRIGAND 2-4 vs me and well, lets just say I rather not be on foot vs Greater Dragon, 2 Vollems, and a bunch of click and stick archers (with an occasional stealth bokuto if Mono/Chronic are running it)
     
  46. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    umm, DUH! They would be godlike because they forget what its like to run a template without hide/stealth. They would hit their smokebomb macro and nothing would happen!! OMGZ!
     
  47. Urin

    Urin Journeyman
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    I am a stealth tamer; it needs to be nerfed. I see these suggestions about bonding pets requiring siege bless, but that doesn't really solve the naked-tamer problem; this will.

    The dexer would need to invest the 100 in detect hidden for this to occur. Further, it should ideally have some form of positional coding associated with it to allow one to go virtually undetected if they can remain behind the detector.

    I agree that this is what makes the game fun, as long as it's balanced. Hiding and stealth do not have a clear-cut counter atm, especially one that provides even remotely similar utility in both pvm and pvp.
     
  48. Urin

    Urin Journeyman
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    I've always wondered why they don't just make a counter for them. Like herding or something, or just maybe give bards some ability to disrupt pet orders via provocation or peacemaking or something. This would double as introducing some use for bard skills in pvp. Too many developer hours I guess.
     
  49. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    The Tracking skill works well enough in this game.

    Enough said.

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  50. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah buddy!!!! I love it when you have 100 tracking and the arrow points about 6 steps above where the person is actually standing. Gotta love it. Also, doesn't that tracking just wtfpwn the **** outta everyone. I think it does 100 damage to those that are stealthing.

    What does tracking have to do with passive reveal?? now tracking would be super bada$$ if we had passive reveal. Get them on track then run in the general direction they are standing and eventually make them show. But as it is now, you have to cast meteor swarm, earthquake, exp/conflag pots or detect. All of which are easy to avoid if you see it coming.