1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Pet Training?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Nightsorrow86, Jul 16, 2008.

  1. Greeting,

    I am a big fans of pet class in MMORPG, I like to fight together with my most loyal friend in the fantasy world. I love how pets are like in UO, you can have 1 powerful 4 or 5 slots creatures or you can have 3+2 whatever, and pets in UO are like an independent being instead of feeling like part of my class's ability. (e.g. Hunter in WoW, I don't feel like having a pet, it feels like a piece of equipment)

    However, there is 1 thing about pets in UO that I think its bad, the super randomization and pet training.

    Because almost all useful pet are not really trainable because they have stats higher than 125 and skills higher than 100, resulting in "what it spawn with is what you get" and you have to spend a lot lot of time finding a pet with good attributes instead of getting a ok one and then start to train it after taming.

    I mean, time and effort needed to find a good pet is reasonable and there is fun finding a good one too. But the attributes of pets in UO are just waaaay too random.

    Let's take a Dragon as an exmaple, http://vm.or.tp/ve/791/a3dra.htm, it is already a very small ranged one, but assuming every attributes are independent and are fairly randomized when every single dragon spawn, the chance of getting a best possible dragon is 1/(range of HP * range of STR * range of INT * range of Ar * range of Fr * range of Cr * range of Pr * range of Er) = 1/(18*30*40*10*10*10*10*10) = 1/2,160,000,000, DEX and skills are ignored because they are always lower than 125 and 100 and can be trained.

    ONE IN TWO BILLION ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY MILLION SPAWNS, and this is already a very small ranged one, I can't imagine the chance for a greater dragon http://vm.or.tp/ve/791/a3dra50.htm, which have much larger ranges and skills have to be taken into consideration as well.

    There are some problems, attributes are way too random and not much after-taming training you can do but you just spend all your time finding a worthwhile one. And no matter how a good one you've found it will always be still very far from the best because the ranges are just too wide. I know it has been like that for many years, but still, I hope it can be revamped. Here is my suggestion.

    Firstly, link STR and HP together just like how DEX-stam and INT-mana do, except that on top of 1 STR = 1 HP, there will be a base HP modifier.

    E.g. Monster Type A has STR ranged 800-820, base HP modifier -400, then A with 800 STR will always have 400 HP and A with 815 STR will always have 415 HP. Of couse the modifier can be positive.
    That way the STR-HP relationship will be more consistent and one factor of the randomization is removed.

    In fact I don't see why the HP and STR have to be 2 independent ranges, its unnecessary separation.
    And the current HP-STR relationship is quite stupid, let's look at a brown bear http://www.uoguide.com/Brown_Bear with 46-60 HP and 76-100 STR, of course the higher HP it spawns with the better right? But for STR it is actually the lower the better, because after training to 125, lower starting STR gives more trained HP. (Same for int because they always start with 0 mana, but int and mana are useless for non-spellcasting pet anyway)

    Secondly, once tamed, reduce all stats and skills to the lowest possible end of the range of such kind of monster, but then if stats and skills were higher than 125 and 100, let them to be trainable back to a certain % of the range.

    E.g. Take Monster Type A with STR 800-820(range 21) as an example again, let's say the % is 0.8, then no matter what STR A was spawned with, once it is tamed, its STR drops to 800, however it can be trainable to 0.8*21 = 16.8 ~ 17, so it will always be trainable to 817 STR.

    The % will be decided by the developers and the public to find out a reasonable one. I didn't not say always trainable to the highest possible end because non-tamer will possibly say that it will be more overpowered, and the people who spent a lot to buy a pet with good attributes will be doomed.

    That way the monsters will be less randomized and tamers will have less to worry about, while the 5 schools of resistances are still not trainable and hence time and effort to find a good pet is still needed. There are still some random factors, because if every pets are exactly the same then there will be no fun as well, right?
    I think that's better balanced between randomization and possibility to find a good pet.

    Also, I suggest giving basic resistance to pets according to their Resisting Spells skill as it does to players (e.g. 100 Resisting Spells give 40 basic resistances), so that weak pets can at least survive a bit, while strong pets are not affected much.

    I know that it probably will never happen and the developers have other stuff to worry about but that's what I want to say.
    Thanks for reading.
     
  2. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    The only real challenge for a tamer when it comes to maxing out their pets is the finding of a good pet. Training pets, like characters is so easy to automate thanks to shadow eles and that new pet AI which allows a tamer to say "stay" then proceed to spam spells on said pet to train resist and or healing if it's a cu sidhe.

    I don't want it to be even easier, if anything taming still needs more challenges, not less.

    Where is the satisfaction in training taming when you can twink with jewels?
    Where is the satisfaction in training a pet through normal hunting while others can macro unattended at shadow eles?
    Why bother finding that elusive top stat pet when soon even that effort will be pointless.

    No thanks. I don't mind easier to understand calculations, but I want to maintain the variety in spawns, especially for the top end pets which yield a lot of power for the skill and challenge involved in taming said pets.

    Remember that some tamers play their characters for years. If that tamer was to pull all their top pets within the first week of training their char, then had the pets all trained up soon after, all they'd really be left to do is hunt and farm gold. Which IMHO is boring as sin :D

    Wenchy
     
  3. It can take a long time to get a good pet and although ideally we'd all have max everything pets it isn't usually necessary. I mean the priority of what things to get near max vary person to person (though most usually agree on resists first).

    Strangely the hardest pet I've found to get a high end version of is a Cu. (strangley because as their skills all cap at 100 it should be easier, or at least I'd think so)

    I know it's not exactly your point but it definitely didn't take me 2 billion tames to get a 130+ Wrestle GD, or a all 120+ one. So I think that it's good that theres a certain amount of what you'll settle for with it because if it realistically took 2 billion tames to get something decent I don't think I'd bother.
     
  4. Remember that 5 Resistances still give a very large variety in spawns.

    I agree with the training part but the real problem is macro training as always.

    Isn't it now that what a skilled tamer left to do is hunting and farm gold as well? Or you think lore every target monster and read careful every line of the stats before killing it is the challenge?

    With my suggestion you still have to do everything you do now, but the concern is narrowed down a bit to the 5 resistances, still a huge range.

    Well such requirements are way too low, 130+ Wrestling is just around 50% chance assuming ranged from 115.4-145.0, but all other attributes are ignored. All 120+ is around 20% but it is just a relatively low requirements as well.
     
  5. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,322
    Likes Received:
    164
    It's very simple: Pets should be able to be trained up to their maximum values in everything. You used to be able to do this, in fact. I have no idea why they took it out.

    Step 1: You train your pet like normal to get it up to the values it had when tamed, just like people do now. Absolutely no change here.

    Step 2: You continue to use your pet in combat and it occasionally gains a stat, taking it toward maximum stats. And by "occasionally" I mean "very slowly." As in "it could take you 2-3 years of constant pet use to get it up to maximum in every stat."

    And to those complaining that "oh noes ppl macro petz so we shud not let petz be traynd 2 max wtf wtf wtf": "oh noes ppl macro theyr charakterz so we shud not let charakterz be traynd to max onlee 2 lyk 87.6 in each skil wtf wtf wtf." It's the same logic. It would be like making a law preventing anyone from possessing more than $100,000 because some rich guy happened to spend a bunch of money on coccaine and hookers last Tuesday.
     
  6. Those were post tamed caps. 130+ is 144.5+ before taming.
     
  7. Fink

    Fink Guest

    If you find sin boring, you're probably doing it wrong. :D

    But you're right, there wouldn't be much to keep you playing. No pet appraisal, training pets, training taming and you're pretty much out of things to do as a tamer besides being a cash mule. Unless you go into boutique services like selling potentially good and/or trained high-end pets. Goodness knows there's scant enough demand for normal non-tamer mounts, what with pet bonding and Chargers.
     
  8. You finish training other templates within a week, why wouldn't you say nothing left to do for them then?

    That's still a low requirement, 1 decent skill out of the 13 untrainable attributes.
    Yet the chance is already as low as 1.7%.
     
  9. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    I'd like to be able to have more impact on stats and those figures of pets through training too. It shouldn't be overpowering the pet of course, but I like to train my pets on real mobs :)
    For those who use shadow elemental, well, who cares? They are people training their skills on golems, it's lame but it doesn't mean those skills shouldn't be trainable ;)
     
  10. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Hm I don't feel like that's a problem, I kinda like it this way.

    Different kinds of pets are variable in different ways - the most variable one being superdragons. I love the variety in superdragons because it lets me, with time and effort, select superdragons that are best suited for certain jobs. One superdragon will be a hit at grizzled, another one will be great for general PVP, another one will be great for raids, and so on. My extra effort in selection of my and my friends' superdragons pays off, whereas people who don't take the time or necessarily understand what they are looking at end up with lower-performance beasts.

    Once someone gets a fresh-tame pet it is necessary to train it to get it to work to its full potential. The people who don't take the time to do that don't see the performance out of their pets that others might. Like, last night someone tried to fight during a raid with an untrained superdragon. My top-notch and fully trained super tore it apart without requiring heals. It's difficult (in fact probably bugged-type of difficult, I should write a bug report) to get a cu sidhe up to GM healing, but once you get it, it's tankyness is even further improved, you go from having a good dog to a great one.

    I like that it takes time and effort, or getting lucky, or cash, to get the best, most desireable pets, and then even after the fresh tame is taken it requires a positive training effort to get the pet working right. These things reward tamers who make a real effort in-game to come up with something nice.

    PS: We can all be very happy that they released superdragons in a way where the magery does not require being trained after tame, just remedial after deaths. That was a very real-world-considering, merciful decision on their part. The time and effort that would have been required to move a superdragon from say 90 magery to 119+ would have been so bad as to perhaps be functionally impossible, making the high magery cap potentially pointless.
     
  11. Yea, it's fun to have find a good pet and its also fun to train it up, and a very important thing mentioned here, we are not asking to overpower pets.

    Hmm, yes, different kinds of pets are variable in different ways, but should not be the same kind of pet with different randomized attributes to be variable in different ways.

    And in fact you mentioned about the importance of training, that's true, and I am now talking about the training potential for strong pets are very limited because of higher than 125 stats/100 skills. Cu is a special case and in fact you can see how good is it to have healing trainable and the achievement to GM it.

    And in order to leave the effort and fun finding a cool pet, resistances are left there with ranges and untrainable.
     
  12. 130 out of 130.5 isn't low imo. Neither is 120+ out of 126. Dragons that are 120+ in wrestle, tact, resist, mage aren't rare imo.

    I don't get where you're getting 13 untrainable attributes from...

    Str, hp, int, mana, phys, fire, cold, poison, energy.

    The ones that can...

    Dex, stam, wrestle, tactics, resist, anat, mage, med, eval. (although mage caps when tamed it can still be re trained if it gets res'd)

    I make that 9/9.
     
  13. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Yes, but some pets can have crappy resists and still do well. Especially if they can be partnered with a tank pet. With other pets those resists are vital and you're not bothered about the rest.

    Macro training is here to stay IMHO. I hate it, but we've had golems and shadow eles for years and now you can tell a pet to stay and cast on it. I can't see that being changed either. Rather than think about a better gain system, or reward players who play normally, EA seem content to let people park themselves and pets in order to train. So I train pets till they're good for hunting, but I won't stress about fully training or maintaining a trained skill on a pet.

    The only reason you'd only hunt gold and items with a tamer is if you're broke or have done everything else. Or you're not into training or taming pets. In which case, why have a tamer? :) I always train pets while I'm hunting for gold, or I'd find it even more tedious than it already is lol.

    When I'm looking for a pet I tend to pick out a couple of essentials to scan over. So mostly I'm looking at the resists first, then I don't look further till I'm happy with them. I'll stable the best one I get on the first day, then keep returning for a better one till I'm content. It takes me a couple of seconds to hop through the lore menu and check the critter's "must haves". But as you don't need an uber pet to have success as a tamer, I've never been too anxious to get the maxed out pets. It's just another tamer thing to go look for something better. No different to finding the top suit and weapons for your warrior.

    Wenchy
     
  14. I count int-mana as one and dex-stam as one because they are directly related, but skills over 100 after taming are included because you can't train pass 90% of the original skills it spawns with, while the max possible is 90% of the highest end of the range.

    Only things left to do is to hunt for gold and item is what you said, not me.
    I don't see why if pets are more trainable then the only things left to do is to hunt gold. Will you say a trained and geared warrior have nothing left to do other than hunt for gold?

    And for warrior (or mage or whatever), items properties are randomized too but it is way easier to find what you want, especially when there are artifacts, luck and runic tools (yes they are expensive but I don't think I can see a pet with all attributes nearly maxed out even I have 9999999 billion), btw tamers need equipment as well.

    Also, for item, when you find something better than your current one, you can easily equip it to replace the current gear. However, for pets, you have to lore every target before you kill it, and if it is better, you have to go back and stable your current pet, return and tame, then bond and train it again, much more troublesome.


    Btw, I have updated the HP-STR part of the original post.
     
  15. Cacophonix

    Cacophonix Guest

    Personally, I like it the way it is now. Finding a good pet is part of the challenge of the game. I think it gives your pets personality and character to have different skills/stats from other pets of the same type.
     
  16. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Personally, hunting for that perfect pet is on of my great pleasures in UO, and I would be extremely upset if that was changed. I also like the fact that training pets takes time, patience and some understanding of what works and what does not. Again, I would be upset if this was made easier.

    The last thing I want from UO is another "MacDonalds" MMO like WoW where everything is completely predictable and all it takes is a great deal of grinding to get to the place where your character and your character's equipment are identical to every other character whose player has spent the same amount of time grinding as you have. If anything, I would wish that UO was even less predictable and uniform than it presently is.
     
  17. That 2 higher STR or 3.4 lower skill do not give you personality.

    Also, if every other has say 120 resisting spells, will you lock yourself at 119.9 just to be different?

    "I also like the fact that training pets takes time, patience and some understanding of what works and what does not."

    Absolutely, but instead of spending unknown and almost impossible time finding a best pet, I would rather spend long long time to train it up after spending reasonable time finding one with good resist, not anything easier but its just possible.

    UO, with 700-720 total skill points and you decide where to spend, same for stats, and item properties are randomized with cap so that you have to mix and match of what suit you, is very cool variation indeed.

    However the pets' attributes are randomized independently, that means it is clearly that each of them are the higher the better, there is no trade off, but the chance are just almost impossible. I am just asking to lower the impossibility, while still keeping some variety, and not anything easier.

    Anyway, guess you guys are satisfied with what it is now, I'll give up.
    Just like the UO now, keep adding spring cleaning item to keep the old players, and will never attract new blood.
     
  18. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    I find it more interresting to have to play with the pet to make it tough rather than going from one mob to another using lore, kill those who aren't good and tame the keepers.
    I don't know... training an animal seems more logical than searching for a four-leaves clover. And technically, searching the right mob is another grind. So, grind for a grind, I'd prefer the most related. Maybe it's a bit roleplayish there, but when you look for a good pet IRL, you don't expect to find one born with feats, you train it or someone else train it and you buy it.
    Now it's game, so it's acceptable to just wait for the right pet to... spawn. It's just more... absurd. Don't you think?