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Discussion in 'UHall' started by kelmo, Nov 4, 2015.
Which are you? What is the difference? Why? And anything else at all.
I don't pvp much anymore, but when I did I called myself a pvp'er never a PK.
To me the difference is a "pvp'er" is someone who enjoys fighting other players just to test their skills or for some kind of contest like doing a champion spawn or duel. On the other hand, to me, a "PK" is someone who enjoys killing completely random, usually defenseless people just for the fun of killing someone they know has no chance of fighting back like someone out mining, or if they do attack someone who can fight back they usually do it with 2 or 3 friends to make sure they have no chance of losing.
When I was more active in pvp i always considered myself a pker. My toons were never blue for more than an hour. The Biggest Difference to me is just straight politics. Blues Will try to play friendly with other blues for the most part, team up, get the reds/do the spawn. Pkers are players who when you see them, you know they are going to attack you, no ifs ands or buts, because that's what they are there to do.
They aren't there to kill your crafters, your resource farmers, or even your noob toons. (If you attack them or are assisting others who are attacking them you will die though). I've never once thought to myself "Hmmm I should go run around minoc mountains and try to find a miner" That's not fun. Pks are there for the fight, Wherever, whenever, however, and to them that is the end game of UO. Everything else is only done to improve their ability to fight/kill other players.
You know, late in the year '97, when UO was just a freaking slaughterhouse (the corpses piled up on the way from Britain to Despise looked like you marched an army in front of a machine gun nest) a friend and I left Pacific for Sonoma with the thinking, if we couldn't beat'em, join'em. I even called Origin (perhaps the only time I've ever called UO customer support) to vent our frustration and tell them what we were about to do. I can remember the sadness/resignation in the CS reps voice.
We made our characters up pretty quickly, got ready, and went out for our first kill. Some poor sucker was walking from Vesper to Brit and we jumped them. With our not quite uber toons - and unaware of all the cheats that existed - I think it took us about 45 sec to kill the poor guy. My buddy kept paralyzing him and I kept hitting him with fireball. I remember our victim asking us why the hell we were bothering him, how did his play effect us, and telling us that he didn't have anything anyway. It was clearly not a kid, just some guy like us who was totally frustrated with the whole damn set-up, but who still wanted to play. We never said a word, looted him, and I left. Actually shut off my computer feeling sick. Not the play experience we thought it was going to be.
Later I found out my buddy stayed and ressed the guy, talked to him for awhile and got him back to town. My friend felt even worse about it than I did. That was the last time either of us "PK'd" anyone.
We played those characters for month's. They both went red just from Blue's being asshats. That was the most fun. Being red and minding your own business, not attacking anyone, and just watching the blue's be total jerks.
Eventually we went back to Pac and toughed it out there until Trammel came along. We stayed in Felucca for a long time. Years actually. But it was nice to see Trammel. It provided a safe place for people to play who didn't want to get abused just playing a game they liked.
I will always remember that guy we killed. Lowest point in my gaming experience.
PvP is combat, doesn't matter the flag, or the mechanic. It means your up for it, your ready to go.
PK's are just assclowns who can't handle PvP. They pick on people who aren't as good at combat, for whatever reason. They are just there to get off, and it doesn't matter who's game they ruin.
PK's made the game fun for me. The risk of going out and mining back then was fun, it took an effort. We as a guild would set up camp and mine while others stood as protectors. We did this for a lot of different crafting needs. We also went around wandering the roads of brit hoping to get ambushed by PKers. It made life in UO Hard, it made it have a reason to play, a reason for players to join up together.
I have a feeling though, the game may have not survived had Tammel not been created. There were a ton of people that enjoyed playing the game but couldnt deal with the risk of losing it all. They hated feeling helpless in a world that was over run with the worst kinds of troll you have ever seen. Some of those players just gave up, quit the game and moved on to new games that offered a completely safe game world. However other players, they banded together to fight against these people. To me the PKers allowed for a Hero to exist. The game now has no heros. It is bland and the only action in fel is usually forced.
in the status quo there are no PKs. There are only PvPers, Gankers, Zergs, etc...
I've always thought a PK just wanted to kill folks, no rhyme nor reason. "Oh, there's someone... Kill Em !" The kill is fun for them.
PvPers I think enjoy the fight. "Ah, theres someone with good gear. Lets see if he knows how to use it !" Fighting is fun for them.
That said, I started a PK toon back in '98 because I had no good gear, I had no fighting skill (some would argue I still don't), & connected on a 38,800 modem.
I attacked anyone I saw, including friends, and died most of the time. That made the occasional kill even more thrilling. I killed anyone I could.
However, the PK game style got old REAL fast for me. As I got a better connection, better gear, and learned the game I grew into PvP.
I enjoyed getting into fights outnumbered JUST so I could see how long I could survive, often never really trying to kill others.
Some of my most memorable fights had me at 1 v 3-5 odds with me just running around healing and laughing.
When someone would talk smack saying how I sucked so bad I can't even fight... I'd turn my attention to them & try to kill them .
I stopped PvPing a few years ago when every single PvP guild I joined would have non-stop chat in vent abt the latest hack, cheat, or speeder programs.
Some even had vent channels set up where players could go to talk about, share, and explain things more clearly to not distract folks playing.
I understand folks pay for their game & can play as they see fit but I also have the choice not to game with them under those conditions.
I only PvE on UO now and PvP in other games that run anti-cheat software and have MUCH more level playing fields where gaming skill matters.
no fun for me anymore, most people are blue VvV, sad really but nothing I can do. reds are the true pkers. my red will never be blue. a lot of people have reds to kill for justice. same old story. yes cheating big issue but what can we do. now that I think about it, I haven't seen a red, except my own, for months lol. wow
Think I forgot how to PK , love you all, but I try to PvP
With royal pardons reds are now very rare, I see them sometimes when doing spawns solo, first you get a blue who spends a little while running around near you, presumably to assess what your template is and gear, doesn't normally talk, then he goes and you can expect your red about 5 mins later, assuming he previously decided the odds were in his favour.
As a rule Id say a PvPer wants the fight, a PK wants the kill, I suppose the real difference is the PK does not care if the person he is fighting actually wants to or has the ability to fight or not, because of this its assumed that PKs are less skilled but I don't think this is the case from the ones I have seen anyway, many are more than happy to have a fair fight.
I'm an occasional PvPer, average mage, bad dexxer, these days its friendly 1v1 duels when I can get them, never been a PK, outside duels and VvV have never attacked anyone who didn't attack me first, never looted anyone either, I just like fun fights, win or lose.
Hi White Witch, I see your Siege chars are guildless. You could be a great Outlaws, I would love to have you in the guild.
There are different types of Pk's, we can't generalize. There is the classic annoying, coward PK, all he wants is to kill easy targets. He/she enjoys killing for the sake of it, not necessarily for the PvP challenge.
Then there's the Pk who is red for the sake of PvP. Yes he likes fighting, and killing. But he/she is red because he wants to fight whoever he wants. This PK doesn't like rules, he likes to attack whoever he wants, whenever he wants, he is not necessarily evil, the red is a consequence of him/her being free. Now with VvV you don't see many Pk's because you can simply join the system and attack whoever you want, which suggests most Pk's are of this type and not the first. People just generally hate Pk's because of a false stereotype, as well as they hate stealth/archers. They get their miner killed once by a Pk, and then they generalize and say all Pks are like that. They hate stealth archers cause they're running around, bailing all the time, hiding, attacking from the shadows, dismounting and doing tons of damage when you less expect it. It is hard to keep focus on a PvP fight when you have this annoying ranger appearing and disappearing without facing you on a face to face combat.
Reality is, a stealth archer has hiding and stealth which is at least 180 skill points on defensive skills, that is a huge disadvantage and can't win a 1vs1 face to face (unless he/she is really good, and the victim not so good). But that's ok, because using those skills to confuse the victim is part of the fight. Using a stealth archer is not easy at all, it requires a lot of thinking and strategy. And not fighting face to face is part of the stealth archer's strategy.
So be what you want to be. If you want to be a Pk be a Pk, if you want to be blue be blue, if you want to be a stealth archer pk be one. Don't let people put labels on you, or say you are not a Pvper because some stinkers go around killing weak players, or because they can't deal with stealth. If you like PvP, no matter how yo do it, you are a Pvper.
I have always been Pk. And I've played the stealth/archer since ninjitsu was introduced to the game. And I am a Pvper. The reason my character is blue now is because VvV, which kind of forced me to be blue, but I don't care cause I can still attack whoever I want.
I would venture to say about everyone who pvps has pked at least once.
If I pk anyone these days it's purely out of boredom and I dont bother looting and generally Rez them after I do. (Unless they're being a tool).
I spent the majority of my time in structured pvp in factions. The base fights and spawn fights were the best part. We didn't need incentives really, we just wanted the bugs fixed and a few tweaks to stop abuse of the system.
But here we are now, Vvv is in place, which I'm a part of but I don't see me ever being nostalgic over standing on a platform for 60 seconds.
For me it was really never about the items so pk wasn't my play style, though I did have reds as a result of faction griefers and guild defense of other reds.
No one actively pvping calls themselves a pker. This is something I have ever run into on stratics by people trying to prove that they played UO for a long time and used to pvp. If you consider yourself a "pker" today, your either an RPer or you're not pvping. pretty simple.
Personally I would pk every resource gatherer I saw, I would raid ever spawn I could and still try to. I would try to pvp at yew gate but in all honesty I was never good enough so more often then not I would house hide there. I still have reds and still play them often.
I don't like PvP and non consensual PvP needs to be removed.
I don't like you but your still around so I guess PvP will just have to stay as well.
Thanks Freja, not really had much play time last few months so haven't been around on Siege, I'm sure will be back at some point, Siege is a hard shard to play in a casual sort of way due to the constant need for new suits :S
I think the need for new suits depend of the guild you are in, suits may last longer with [TDO*] over your head
I've never done either. I don't like to fight, I'm not naturally competitive; and knowing that there is a living, feeling, human being behind each toon, I can't imagine being a PK.
I have been all of the above at one time or another. I enjoy logic, tactics and teamwork in my pvp. I also enjoy being the underdog and prevailing. I never got much joy out of killing those whom have never done wrong to me or my people. Nor do I enjoy slaughtering people who cant defend themselves. I still to this day love fighting bullies and loudmouths. I on occasion try to teach those who have an interest in PvP to do so. It is an awesome sense of achievement to take a group of players who don't know how to pvp, those who are always getting raided and dying, and after a few months having them going toe to toe with some of the best groups in the game. I suppose if were doing labels, these days you could consider me the third option. Anti PK.
When I think of the term 'PK', I think of mining about 15 years ago and only ever getting back to town or my house safely about half the time because the other half someone would just come find me and off me. Usually, they would take my ore and/or kill my packies, but not always.
When I think of PvP, I think of the current crowd that voluntarily hangs out at Fel Yew Gate or those who bring matches to one of the arenas to settle scores.
You can block my posts. I can't turn off non-consensual PvP in Felucca.
You can quit uo
I PVP on the forums. Back a year or so this topic would have been moderated into oblivion on this forum.
Prior to champ spawns I never had a red. I played pre-trammel but was always the one being killed not doing the killing. My first character to go red was because of Zuckuss. OK maybe not directly his fault. He got me into champ spawns with our guild and from the PvM aspect I branched into defending the spawn for the PvM characters. How do you go red from BEING raided? Well..RAID guild rolls in with blues to kill the reds who are defending knowing that not all of the blues will attack. When reds are dead they roll in with their reds to kill the blues and then finish the spawn (with their PvM characters).
I was tired of seeing my guildies die so I started attacking and then from their learned the benefits (and negatives) of being red myself. When doing spawn fights with my guild I always run a red, even now.
I've also "PK"'d un-attended scripters over the years though it never seemed to deter them.
Well, It is not a year ago. Are ya going to add to the conversation or dazzle me with forum PvP?
Yeah, Podolak, I do get "good guy" reds. I have met many in my years on Siege.
Well, to be fair I have since had days where I was an asshat too.
Come to think of it...I am mistaken, the first time I went red was pre-Trammel. My buddy and I created newbie characters and would try and kill people who were AFK in town through various methods before the guards were called. We used exp pots together and back then you could give the tinker who made a trapped chest a murder count if you died to it (we would place tinkered exp boxes around the banks, etc). So in that case I would consider that "PK" as we were truly just trying to get people killed. I would say we were total griefers but we often had good laughs after with our victims. I do understand not everyone would find that funny.
It used to be if you stood by someone and let an exp pot go off in your hand it's do damage to someone in trammel and you could kill them without taking a count.
That isn't one I knew about though it was probably after my friend left UO. I am not very original and he was the ring leader I was just along for the ride. I think that is what I miss these days, someone to tell me what to do in PvP lol. I just heal/cure/cleanse guildies. Is that bad?
If only we all had someone as a dedicated healer.
I would like this to read 'has attempted to PK at least once'! I swear in all my time of UO, I have never ONCE had a successful PK. I attempted it once pre AOS and ended up feeling guilty and fleeing the scene before I killed the person. They later chased me down and killed me. I had a horrible conscience as a young adult. After that I had dedicated my time to being a PK killer. Granted I failed miserably and to this day I still have never been good at UO PVP, but its not for lack of trying dying.
Now WoW was another story. When they introduced flying, I remember sitting on top of mushrooms and using my bow and arrow on newbs, but that's another life!
I should also mention that I'm a rather accomplished PVPer in many other games. I was just never able to get over the 2d hurdle for pvp!
Heh... #1 rule of the healer... DO NOT DIE! Ya can't heal or rez if yer dead.
Can't agree more with this. I actually spent considerable time and resources making a suite for a mage WITH healing skill to give me every chance to remain alive while keeping guildies alive. Finding just the right legendaries and fitting it all together to have 150 HP, 150 Dex and a large enough mana pool.
I hate to post so quick, but this reminded me of one of my favorite UO stories ever. My friend Lobo and I were chasing down a PKer who killed/looted us pre-Tram. We cornered him up outside of Skara right where the road splits. I'm the dedicated healer, my friend is the Kal Vas Flam mage and we were up against a dex monkey. My friend was kiting him around and had just para'd him and was about to cast his killing spell. He was low on health so I said 'I'll heal you' and hit my hotkey... The overhead text read 'Corp Por'. Needless to say we both died. I've never lived that down.
So who wants to be on my team for pvp?
joined a guild years ago, kind of a PR red guild, but not really.... we didnt RP but we did have a story line.
we protected the dungeons from the evil that was blue players.
they came in and killed the monsters and looted them and we avenged the poor monsters we where the protectors.
we enforced our dungeons with ruthlessness and pain.
it was a fun time.
met a LOT of people who didnt care for what we where doing but it was fun.
then factions came along and we transitioned over to factions and that was more politically correct i guess.
much more organized.
you didnt feel as dirty after a night of faction pvp as you did from a night of making skin suits in Destard.
ive all but left the PVP world, getting to old to put up with the people running cheats and billion gold suits.
but i must admit, from time to time i still slip into game on my red and i patrol the dungeon and from time to time i catch a unwary blue farming the poor monsters and i exact the toll from him.
(then i usually res him and we chat for a while and then i leave)
im just gonna put this out there.
there is nothing funnier then a person who can type while pvp'ing AND is a smart ass.
ive seen some epic fights take place, some of which ive been in the middle of, and wow is it hard to fight when your eyes are tearing up because your laughing so hard!
there is just something about destroying a person verbally while your destroying their defenses.
I can not do that.
PK all the way.
I always liked the people who would trash talk and say they'd give me or delete their account if they ever lost to me. They never follow through...
The difference is purely one of semantics, regardless of the opponents ability/readiness PK'ing is still PvP, and PvP involves someone getting PK'd.
I think a more pertinent question is are you a PvMer or PvPer, to which I'd answer both, I see no point in limiting yourself. Many that do think they know the other half but don't really get it. I played PvM for many years and found most of it easy, I'd occasionally PvP but wasn't a PvPer (winning or losing), I didn't know game mechanics, I didn't know who would win and couldn't assess what the opponent would even do. To a large degree it was a lot more fun then (I'm talking back when armor weight affected swing speed, and weapon class determined specials), guild wars and old old factions were the most fun, AOS and Publish 16 really changed things.
A while later I joined a champ spawn guild which more or less means PvP is unavoidable, and wow, it really opens your eyes quickly to how badly you had been setting up your characters. A short while into this is when I started considering myself a PvPer, and I don't think it's about what you do in terms of your actions (many players purposely played douchebags as a playstyle and they had wins/losses/abuse the same as anyone else, being a somewhat honourable PvPer is more for your own ideal of morality, it doesn't really get you anywhere in the field.) I think being a PvPer is more to do with what you know. Although vastly different from pre AOS/P16 it was largely Necro/Mages, Parry/Mages, Stealth/Archers, and a Disarm/Fencers, these were huge epic fights that went on for hours with give and take on both sides, especially when people popped Harrowers just for the fight.
Later still when the large champ spawn guilds I'd played in were dwindling, and gear dependency was rising with the then new Faction Arties I joined up with some real hardcore PvPers (the guys that used to wup us in our champ spawn guild no less!) and carried on a while longer.
The result of all that, is I can do what I like and go where I like and can obtain pretty much anything in game myself, even with a PvM built character I can hold my own because I put the effort in to adapt and get better rather than just blaming cheats like a lot do.
I'm not saying PvP made me able to build awesome characters that could solo stuff, I could do that anyway, but it did allow me to think of my characters use, strengths and weaknesses in a way that means I'm rarely unprepared. At the end of the day though, there's two types of players, those that die and go oh well, and those that die and think what can I do to stop that next time. The ones that go oh well will never really get it, it'll always be something/someone else's fault they died, I have infinite patience for teaching people things, that's how I know, I've met people that can't be taught because there's always some stupid reason they can't make a simple macro, or lag, or the other guy cheated, or whatever. Everyone in UO has access to the same, the only difference is some don't put in any effort, and why should anyone care about them.
I've always felt that a PK was a murdered, killed anyone anytime with no provocation. A pvper enters into battles with like minded individuals to have an actual battle of skills.
If you think about it, killing a miner isn't really pvp since the miner has no defensive skills.
Edit: I know in the end it's to-may-toe:to-mah-toe debate im making but humor me, I'm bored at work lol
I am enjoying this conversation. It is interesting to see the different attitudes, experiences and thoughts.
Kill em all. Sort it out later.
Crybabies get killed again.
From a purist perspective, it would seem that PVP would appeal to players who honestly enjoy a (hopefully) fair competition and the opportunity to test their skills against others who enjoy doing the same.
The PK would deviate to some degree from that mindset, in that he or she would probably be less concerned about fairness and enjoy the killing even more than the actual fight.
Yes, well, bravado is all well and good and whatnot, but what got sorted out was that the vast majority of players - excuse me, Paying Customers - found getting killed all the time un-fun, not worth their investment, and quit playing UO.
What we have left is very few players and a development team of ....5?
So, unless we'd like UO to go the way of Shadow Bane, and all the other "Me HardCORE" games, we might want to check the "Die Noob!" stuff a bit.
It'd be nice if we didn't wantonly slaughter the remaining players (to the point they up and quit), or any new ones that took a chance and stopped by to take a peek, and actually got to, ya know, keep UO around.
I'm sure it will be fun in the future to look back on UO fondly with all the memories of people we killed, and how others took it on the chin from us, and how much fun we had. Or, we could not be a bunch of jackasses, and still be playing UO.
I agree! It's nice to have a civilized conversation/debate. I've always enjoyed the pvp - hunt and be hunted aspect that I first learned about in UO. I now play four other pvp oriented games as well. My favorite part of pvp is ambushing someone.
One a side note. I always feel it is worthwhile to respect your opponent as a PK or PvPer. I'm ok with friends banter, but I hate when people try to belittle, or make it personal. I always bow or salute a worthy foe, win or lose.
Arguably, it's because they catered to trammel that we have 5 devs left.