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Playing an assassin not possible by design ??

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by popps, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    This is very weird.........

    It is not possible to play an efficient assassin by Design, in Ultima Online ??

    A good assassin should have :

    Hiding 100
    Stealth 120
    Ninjitsu 120
    Tracking 100 (for best effects with Death Strike)
    Fencing/Swords/Macing 120
    Tactics 120
    Anatomy 120

    Total = 800 points
    And, mind you, NO healing ability possible nor anything to recall.... And not mentioning that an assassin should also have 100 poisoning for better fitting into the role...

    Unfortunately, the CAP is 720.

    Therefore, by Design, it ain't possible to have an efficient assassin UNLESS one relies on + skill items??

    Items with +skill modifiers, IMHO, should NOT and NEVER be a requirement to play anything other than more complex templates. An assassin is a basic template, certainly none of those mixed up skills templates like a sampire or a nox/tamer/bard/mage template....

    Items with +skill modifiers should be an extra, but never something one must feel obliged to use to play a given, basic template.
     
  2. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    7xGM What's the problem? You don't have to go to legendary.
     
  3. Drop anatomy and drop tactics to 70 or 90 (Depends on the weapon you use for the specials). And use faction artifacts, breather. *cackles*
     
  4. popps

    popps Always Present
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    What is the problem ? The problem is that is we have Legendary status possible I do not see why a player should be prevented to play a "basic" role at legendary....

    I mean, a player could have a Legendary tamer, a Legendary Warrior, a Legendary Mage, a Legendary Bard but never a Legendary Assassin ???

    Now, if one wanted to have a Legendary Assassin/Tamer/Bard/Mage than I would agree in that not bein possible, for example, but a BASIC Legendary Assassin should be possible WITHOUT having to necessarily rely on +skill items, forcedly........
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I know it can be done with +skill items, but my point is that for a "basic" template as an assasin is, players should never ever feel to HAVE TO use +skill items to play a basic role.

    Items with +skill modifiers should ONLY be optional and for more complex "salad" templates, never for basic templates, IMHO.
     
  6. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Sorry Popps... but a legendary assassin is easy... the problem is you mixed an assassin with a ninja - like having a peace-tamer, or a necro-warrior - it crowds the template.

    And don't try to say Ninjitsu is part of the assassin... the assassin was around long before the Ninjitsu skill entered the game. Sure, it would be nice to have on an assassin, but then, I'd love to have several other skills on every template I use.

    It's the same 700 to 720 skill points that every template gets.
     
  7. None of the faction items i use has skill increase, mortal.
     
  8. popps

    popps Always Present
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    A necro-warrior to me is mixing up 2 different roles, a Mage and a melee Warrior.

    The thing is that Death Strike along with Tracking is just perfectly fit for an assassin not to mention the animal form that better allow an assassin to stay a stealther (and what assassin is an assassin without hiding and stealthing ??).

    I do not see it as a ninja/assassin but simply as an assassin well played.
     
  9. Poison use died with cure pots...deathstrike is the new assassin...*cackles*
     
  10. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Sure... so you take the benefits on Ninja and Tracking - at the cost of something else... say Anatomy or Tactics. Just like every other template - you have to achieve a workable balance - within limits.
     
  11. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, aren't we perhaps missing here the scope of an assassin ??

    An assassin is NOT a warrior, not a fighter.

    That is, an assassin is not a template that should be fit for enduring fightings....

    Those are for a warrior.

    Nope, an assassin should be a template that moves in the dark, strikes in the dark and delivers in one or 2, 3 blows, job done........

    If an assassin is made uncapable of doing what an assassin should be capable of doing : act in the shadow of the darkness and waste the target fastly and swiftly well, then IMHO we cannot talk of an assassin, period........

    It would merely be yet another fighter like a macer, a fencer, a swordman but certainly not an assassin.

    To be a real, effective assassin, therefore, skills like hiding, stealthing, ninjitsu, tracking and perhaps poisoning should be mandatory.

    Unfortunately, they simply do not fit within the skill CAP without +skill items.

    Hence, my concern that an assassin is not fully playable by design.
     
  12. Deb

    Deb Guest

    I do not know much about the ninja skill, but how would you heal
    yourself? Pots only?
    As far as unplayable, can you imagine if we were given 800 skill points?
    OMG let the whining begin.
    Popps I honestly think you sit and try to come up with things to complain
    about.
    All templates not just the Assassin have to sacrifice somewhere. Since
    you do not have the healing skill drop the Anatomy maybe and add DI to
    any jewelry or weapons you want to use.
     
  13. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    You dont need anatomy, The Dmg. Inc. you would gain is worthless its only viable if you have heal, Eval. Stealth does not need to be that high, 70 in leather is good enough. Bring tactics to 110 again the dmg inc is not worth it between 110-120, Drop tracking replace with 90 poison, you now have 70 pts. to put into chiv with 4/6 casting and you have a pretty viable assassin template. More skill points are not needed in fact the x-tra 20 for vets should be removed.
     
  14. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Show me the sacrifice the Warrior Template makes.
     
  15. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Would you please go sit at the kids table? You dont even play the template yet you try to add to a losing arguement...well done poops.
     
  16. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    Absurd.

    I don't think you should extrapolate your inability to structure an assassin template to anyone else.



    Ya know, popps, I get the feeling you log in once a day for five minutes and the instant you find a thing that is not perfectly to your liking you log out and come here and troll. Point being - a little more time in game and you will discover that there are numerous viable assassin templates - and yes, by design.
     
  17. Altpersona

    Altpersona Guest

    If you can only think of two ways to kill someone then assassin isn't the job for you ^^
     
  18. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    If you ever played a ninja you would realize that tracking is unecessary, as are legendary tactics or anatomy. There is no need to 120 stealth or even GM hiding. Again, if you had any sort of clue of what was being discussed here you would understand how pointless your post really is.
     
  19. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    It doesn't work well, because you waste a lot of skill points. Stealth, Tactics and Anatomy at 120 is totally nonsense.
     
  20. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    would not need 800 , just git rid of the stupid need to have 90 tact on anything with a weapon
     
  21. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    A great aspect of Ultima is making choices with respect to skills. Now I myself have a horde of accounts and characters, each with their own unique quirky templates. It's really interesting to see how the different choices of templates might seem lacking in certain areas of UO, but will be life savers in other. So you'll just have to deal with making choices in how you want to construct it.
     
  22. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    I hate to be one of 'those' people but wow - what a Trammie OP. If you've ever been to Felucca then you would know people play/have played - most stealthers now use archery - such a template, even with poisoning included which to my mind is a more fitting skill for an assassin. Just because a skill isn't at Legendary level doesn't necessarily affect its effectiveness when used with the right set of complimenting skills.
     
  23. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    There's only one kind of person who has the right to complain about an assassin template requiring items, and that is a Siege/Mugen player. The items needed for popps' template to work are so mind-numbingly easy to get and keep on other shards, that their use is a non-issue.
     
  24. AaronTheAssassin

    AaronTheAssassin Adventurer
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    On my Main, Aaron who is infact an assassin and a thief. I Have been able to assassinate people. I lack damage modifying skills, and I have a low damage output with my weapon of choice.

    here is the jist of my skills, note that I use +skill items, and still maintain 70s, and I get over +100 skill points from gear and I do not use skill jewlery.

    Steal
    Snoop
    Hide
    Stealth
    Fence
    Poison
    Ninja

    An Assassin should be able to take ALL aspects of his kill into consideration.
    • Are they easily taken down in basic combat?
    • (if you snoop) Can they actually counter my poison in a longer battle?
    • Are they engaging other targets?
    • What tools do I have to assist me?

    With this in consideration let me provide you with a simple scenario that happened not too long ago. I was in a conflict with a guild mate, she began casting Explosion FS combos on me due to her frustration from an argument we had. I merely Shadow Striked myself to hide, used Cat form (with GM ninja) to regen my HP, and then I gave her a smart-allec remark about how Im so crappy and yet she fails to kill me. Well, I notice that she has a High resist suit, approx 55 or more in all resists, over 100% LRC, and high LMC. Her casting times seem to be unmodified, or slightly modified, and carried no potions from a snoop I performed. So, I pulled out my lesser poison kyrss, and stab her. She has trouble curing the poison due to rapid ticks but she cures it. I try again and keep up my offencive, she has more trouble but still manages it. So, I switch my weapon and injected Lethal poison. Her Cure spell was unable to fix her predicament (She didnt try Arch) and then she began to panic and I finished her, and then told her That she was defeated by this truely crappy Thief.

    Another story (from a longer time) is that I was preying on a weaker char who was in fel despise, low resists armor (all 50s at best) and would have trouble with 3 or 4 ettins at one time. So, I pulled out a GM Explosion trap box, set it nearby, he opened it and boom I got free loot.

    And my final story, Big Bad Hunter is fighting bigger and badder critters, He gets some damage and then retreats to heal, his suit was strong and he didnt carry potions. I waited for him to get roughed up, and then I stuck at him. A small battle ensued with plenty of poison to go around, and I emerged victorious.

    And there has been plenty of times where I have been outclassed, outmatched, and was able to escape with a Shadow Strike, Smoke Bomb, or the classic flee technique.

    The role of the Assassin is to think how to set yourself in the most advantagous scenarios with what you have managed to setup for yourself, NOT how can you simply overpower your opponent by being a brute.
     
  25. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Popps your arguments are so poorly structured for the most part that it is a wonder I ever click on your links anymore.

    I liken this thread to someone say "Is it impossible to get good pizza anymore?" Someone will say "You can phone this person and they will deliver this delicious pizza" and you say "NO! you can't use the phone". Someone else will say "well you can drive to this place-" and you cut in "No! You can't drive the car there, you need to have this delicious pizza appear without using these extra ordinary methods of getting it. It must simply appear." And this third person says "well I have this magical genie who can make this kind of pizza appear" and you say "No! this pizza is terrible. I said GOOD pizza."

    You make some kind of broad generalization and then gradually encroach it within your own limitations, trying to make it appear as if your argument is broad, but what you really mean is that you have your own specifications for what it is that is bothering you but you want more people to agree with you so you try to hide those specs.

    YES is it possible to play an assassin by design.

    NO you cannot playin a specific Popps-endorsed-only-this-is-his-idea-for-an-assassin-template, 800 point template where you can't use items to boost yourself to 800 etc etc.

    This thread is about as worthwhile as me posting one say:

    Hey! It's not possible for me to play a Tambardmaghunter! (tamer/bard/mage/t hunter) I need 1000 points! Why can't I play this classic template? Everyone knows that, classically, Tambardmaghunters have to devote 120 points to eval and that can't be quibbled with!

    Do you see what I'm saying? There is no "classic" assassin "template" that has historically existed. You aren't going to find ancient texts describing how an assasin can reach GM poisoning.

    Your argument is totally worthless. It basically boils down to a statement.

    Popps: Can I do this thing? (lists specifications)
    Everyone else: No
    Popps: Ok

    That is what should happen. What will probably happen is a few more pages of you arguing why something can't be the way you want it to be, followed by people arguing back "'cuz" and finally the thread gets locked when someone finally goes off on you. Oh well, I guess it's how you get your jollies. :pancakes:
     
  26. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Your template just isn't that great....

    Hiding 100 >> 100
    Stealth 120 >> 75
    Ninjitsu 120 >> 120
    Tracking 100 (for best effects with Death Strike) > 100
    Fencing/Swords/Macing 120 >> 120
    Tactics 120 >> 90
    Anatomy 120 >> 0

    Leaves you with 195 pts left over. I'd go 55 bushido for healing, and with imbuing now, and all the items that give stealth, realistically you could run this template with heal and anat..
     
  27. assassins require inguinuity. my assassin does quite well within the means of the skill cap. infact, my assassin operates with poisoning and alchemy. when i get the first strike, i usually cause enough disorientation that i will succeed, and can cause a lot of stacked damage.

    you'll depend more on equipment available than skill totals.
     
  28. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You are over thinking it Popps... Or under... I am not sure. Check out Speedy's template and start there.
     
  29. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    i have an assassin. and i can guarantee that I can kill anyone in the game.
    You just have to think, be patient, and be smart.
     
  30. Not sure where you play or what you did that made you think assassins weren't viable, but you can easily make a ninja/hide/stealth/poison/tact/anat/heal/fence assassin. You can do it without the ninjitsu at all.

    As a previous poster said, an Assassin is not a viable template for prolonged fighting. An assassin can't by game design be able to kill someone in 1-3 hits, because that would mean EVERYONE would pick either that or tamers, just due to the massive ability to kill.

    An assassin's purpose in having hiding and stealth is so you can be on hand, unnoticed, to catch a target unprepared. An unprepared target will not be able to stand against you; An unprepared target to a prepared assassin has the choices of running or dying. And usually running makes them die anyways.

    And it doesn't take any special items either; There've been assassin templates on characters on Europa in the RP guilds ruleset of only GM non runic gear for years now.
     
  31. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Personally, I approach character design as 6x120 - even if a mix of lower skills (with or without jewelry) might be more powerful. I rarely actually achieve 120 due to one reason or another (either the skill doesn't go to 120 or the powerscroll isn't available or I get stuck and don't want to powergame through a lull in training), but that's what I try to center the character around that idea.

    No matter what character you are making, there will *always* be a cooler/better character possible "if only I could add one more skill", but UO character design is about finding a niche within in a sea of limitations.
     
  32. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    I agree with Popps...

    My weapons master is not a viable template either

    Swordmanship 120
    Fencing 120
    Macing 120
    Archery 120
    Throwing 120
    Tactics 120
    Anatomy 120
    Parry 120
    Bushido 120
    Focus 120

    That is a total of 1200 points needed to make this a viable character template





    Please read the above with the understanding that I am being sarcastic


    All in favor of having popps play exclusively on test center so he won't have to complain about not having the skills, scrolls, armor, etc. that he needs rais your hand.....
     
  33. LadyNico

    LadyNico Always Present
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    This. :thumbsup:
     
  34. Quenchant

    Quenchant Seasoned Veteran
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    First of all, I question your ability to decide what an assassin template should be. If this is what you think is ideal, then it is blatantly obvious that you don't play this template.

    Assassin templates have always been on the gimp side of things. It's a lot to try and do with the reality of a 720 skill cap. The assassin templates of my own and of others have no skill items in the suits. However, there is far more to playing an assassin than just skills.

    I will agree with you on this one. Assassin's are not built for the long haul. They also need to be able to escape if they can't take down their mark quickly. Generally, an assassin is not capable of taking down a full blown warrior in a couple hits.

    A new assassin's usual marks are resource gathers (either attended or unattended). If you know a few game mechanics, and have patience you can be very successfully be an assassin. After you see how things work, you can try harder and more difficult victims.

    Being an assassin, is similar to being a thief in the sense that you have to think about things. Assess the battles they got away from you and how you can improve for future encounters. You just don't become successfull at this profession by simply picking skills and training them up. It's also about the right equipment and tools that you carry to do the job too.

    -Which are the best weapon(s)?
    - What other things do you need to carry to be effective?
    - How are you going to stop the recall miner from getting away from you?
    - Can you make a player visible if they got a hide off?
    - Are you willing to wait an hour by the heartwood tree for someone to show up?

    Being an assassin isn't supposed to be easy. That's the joy we get from playing this template well. Not everyone can do it.

    If this thread was about changing the skill cap because you can't be effective at the 720 cap, then I would say get over it. It isn't going to change.

    If this thread was about becoming an assassin, I would suggest you go educate yourself on the topic in the PvP Thief Forum. (That's where the former Assassin Forum resides) Take some time to do some reading, look at the templates, see what items they are using. Ask yourself why they choose those skills at those levels.

    My guess is that you have no interest in being an Assassin and this thread is to:
    - Babble on about the way you think things should be regardless of other peoples opinions. (Has anyone ever changed your opinion on anything?).
    - Enjoy yourself by disagreeing with anyone that expresses an opinion that doesn't agree with your own.
    - Another thread to increase your post count :postcount:

    If you really are interested in being an Assassin, I'll be glad to help after you have done some reading.

    Former Assassin Forum Mod,
    Q
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    How long did it take you to come up with this template? 10 seconds without thinking or reasoning? Have you tried combining other skills and not going all the way to 120 with everything? Just because a skill can go to 120 doesn't mean you HAVE to go to 120.

    Many people easily work an assassin template, even before age of shadows.

    Try out the test center sometime before coming to an absurd conclusion that an assassin template is impossible to make.
     
  36. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    What is most weird is the amount of time you seem to spend making mountains out of molehills. This, like most of the questions you have posed over the past few weeks, is a non-issue to most. The whole point of the number of skill choices in UO is that you can tailor a character to your own requirements, but there have to be compromises.

    Do you post these questions just to promote debate on the board? If yes, I'd rather you didn't. This is a discussion forum, not a debating society.
     
  37. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Heal ?

    An assassin, IMHO, is not intended to endure a fight and have to self heal etc. during the fight.

    To me, an assassin is someone who comes from the darkness, preferably at night and pops up from nowhere and strikes that killing blow, all of a sudden.

    That is, an assassin should not be intended to stay there and fight but only appear, kill and disappear again in the darkness..... A killing perfect machine, an assassin, that is....

    Someone who could cut the jugular in one knife slash, or, if there were guns in Ultima Online, using a silenced gun strike that perfect one shot in the head or the center of the heart making hardly any noise and disappear into nowhere from where it came. That is what I imagine an assassin should be like when roleplayed in Ultima Online.........

    I am not saying that the skill CAP should be raised, I am saying that design should make it so that within the current skill CAP, without using +skill items, a roleplaying assassin should be able to get that role playable.

    That is, be able to succesfully move in the darkness, appear from nowhere all of a sudden, hit the target with surprise and devastating effectiveness killing it, depending on luck in no more than 3 hits and then disappear again in the darkness from where it came.

    That is what a roleplaying assasin should be, IMHO.



    Drop what if I may ask ?

    Hiding and stealthing cannot be dropped because an assassin who cannot master moving in the darkness and appear all of a sudden, is not, IMHO, an assassin.

    Drop weapon skills or skills that allow for high peak damage ?

    If so, then the assassin would not be able to swiftly get the kill in few shots and it would become yet another warrior fighting endured fights, not an assassin going for the fast lethal blow....

    So, I do not really see what could be dropped here much without making the assassin not an assassin....

    Result ?

    As design is now, I do not see how a succesfull assassin could really be role played without having to rely on +skill items.

    Sure, one could have yet another warrior with hiding and stealthing for enduring fights but an assassin ? Nope, that would be not.........
     
  38. popps

    popps Always Present
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    How worthless is the addition of anatomy ?

    The thing is, that in order for an assassin to be an.... well, ahem....., assassin, the damage peak when striking must be as high as possible.

    A perfect assassin would be one that strikes and kills in one blow and then vanishes in the dark.

    Now, dropping anatomy can the peak be sufficiently high to kill, if not in 1 hit at least in 2 or 3 even with the all 70s suits we have all over ??




    Doesn't 70 stealth make failing too much likely ?

    An assassin is not to stay for the fight with the friends of the target but to hit and vanish into nowhere. To do this, one has to reliably be able to stealth out of the scene after the kill. I wonder if 70 stealthing is not too low to reliably ensure this.

    100 Tracking gives a very nice bonus to Death Strike which is the one special move for an assassin. Drop tracking for poisoning which can be cured ?

    I'd rather be forced to walk and so renounce to any recalling ability but be able to stealth reliably and have the highest damage peak possible to preferably kill in 1 or 2 hits and then disappear.

    This is how I see a roleplaying assassin.
     
  39. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Ok, let me see.

    The assassin should be one that lives and moves in the darkness (i.e. hiding and stealthing) to appear all of a sudden from nowhere and strike the target with deadly determination killing it in no more than 3 blows even when the target us wearing an all 70s suit.

    The assassin will NOT stay for an endured fight, that is the job of a warrior, not of an assassin, IMHO.

    The assassin shows up from nowhere, kills silently and fastly and disappears into nowhere. All in a blink of an eye.

    That is what an assassin should be, IMHO.

    Now, please, WITHOUT using +skill items give me a viable and efficient, by design, template, who could do this within the 720 skill CAP.

    Thanks.
     
  40. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, the one special move that fits an assassin is Death Strike but it only peaks sufficiently high when together with 100 tracking.


    It is vital for an assassin to move and disappear into the darkness reliably.
    I did train those skills and the number of fails are too high at lower levels particularly when in situations when many enemies are near by trying to reveal the assassin.
     
  41. Altpersona

    Altpersona Guest

    How did this creature get such a high post count?
     
  42. popps

    popps Always Present
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    So, WITHOUT relying on +skill items how can then an assassin reliably move and vanish into the darkness and can peak the damage to be able to kill in no more than 3 hits the target ?
     
  43. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Sure, but we are talking here about an assassin.....

    And what is an assassin if not someone who lives in the shadow and darkness from which he/she appears, kills the target in a blink of an eye to then vanish again into the nowhere he or she came from ??

    I do not see how such an assassin could be roleplayed without having to forcedly rely on +skill items.

    That is why I said that while one can play a role played Tamer, or Mage or Bard or Warrior not having to rely on +skill items one CANNOT, as design currently is, play an effective and efficient assassin without being forced to have to use +skill items.

    Not an assassin that does, IMHO, what an assasin should do : live in the darkness and kill swiftly and fastly in very few hits.
     
  44. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Then, please, show me WITHOUT having to use +skill items how could such an assassin template be played.

    That is, an assassin that lives and moves in the darkness (i.e. very reliably can use hiding and stealthing) AND can peak damage so as to kill in no more than 3 hits even when the target has an all 70s suit.....
     
  45. :owned:

    Petra, you earn your money, and I certainly don't want your job.
     
  46. Altpersona

    Altpersona Guest

    I do believe the job of an assassin is to get the kill and everything else is secondary. Frankly, you don't 'need' anything in particular but a sharp intellect to be an assassin. You're looking at the assassin as straight PvP template when it's far from that. You've missed the whole point of an assassin and bluring the lines of it with a ninja/pvp template. There's ways to one shot people that doesn't include any skill what so ever.

    I've been asleep and your still rabbiting on about this nonsense. Just drop it for gods sake.

    The kill is paramount. All other is secondary.
     
  47. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    what money? all $0 £0 and 0gp of it?
     
  48. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, then we have a different opinion of what an assassin should be.

    To me, an assassin is someone who is invisible until the moment they strike the target and is capable of reaching a damage peak so high that the target is killed in very few hits to then vanish again into the darkness from where they came.

    No, definately I cannot see an assassin engaging an endured fight, that is for a warrior.

    Can the current design allow, without the need to use +skill items, to play such an assassin ? I fail to see how, at least not reliably or efficiently.

    Maybe some low level target with crappy armour could be killed but I do not see how a roleplaying assassin could be able to kill most targets out there sporting all 70s suits and a number of modifiers like Hit Defence Increase, parrying and what not.
     
  49. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Out of curiosity, do you need your assassin to rely on +skill items ??

    If not, what are the template skills and points ?
     
  50. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, if that exceptional killing ability is countered by an equal great defensive fragility than such an assassin would be good to hunt sole targets but very poor and hardly playable versus 2+ groups of enemies.

    The way I see an assassin is someone who had the ability to kill in 1-3 hits but also to go down when hit by a couple of hits.

    The assassin I think of is one that has exceptionally high damage output but also exceptional low defense ability........