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Please fix/tweak pet instalog in fel

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goldberg-Chessy, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    What is the reasoning these days behind an agressor's pet being able to evade damage/death just by having the owner log out?
    Any reason at all we still have this in place?

    I have no problems at all figthing tamers but I do have a problem not being able to finish off their pets before they log out.

    Their pets certainly have the ability to finish me off after their owner dies so why do they get the free pass?

    Its pretty simple imo. There are 3 parts to the equation: tamer/pet/target. But only 2 of the 3 suffer penalties. The tamer or the target. There is a system in place to penalize the pet by slightly reducing stats upon death but if the owner simply does nothing other then x out his screen the pet avoids the penalty. Why have the pet stat penalty in the first place if you put in a non game mechanic(logging out)to bypass it?

    This is not a huge game changing issue ofc but imo just another thing that could and should be cleaned up and corrected & why not in the new publish?
     
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  2. Spiritless

    Spiritless Seasoned Veteran
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    The fix is simpler. This system was introduced to prevent players from losing their pets if they DC'd or whatever, not a means to avoid a pet death if they died themselves. I don't think that was ever the intention. Simply put a 2-3 minute timer on the pet auto-stable mechanism after the player has logged out so it is not instantaneous.
     
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  3. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Sounds simple and effective to me
     
  4. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Personally I would favor an aggressor flag just the same as players get... if the owner has the aggressor flag, the pet does not instalog until the flag clears.
     
  5. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Be happy you killed the player, a defenseless pet is not even a challenge so WTF do you care, if a tamer logs to save the aggravation of having to retrain his pet when it dies because it alone is not smart enough or strong enough to survive. Again you succeeded in killing the Player be happy about that.
     
  6. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Thats a ridiculous argument. If the pet was damaging me I should be able to kill it same as the owner. Period.

    A greater dragon is not strong enough to survive alone? Are you serious?

    I care because my whole point is that if a tamer is gonna flag me and create what is essentially a 2 vs 1 I wanna kill the pet also ofc. Its not a hard concept to understand.

    The tamer should have to go through the aggravation of retraining if he plans on using his pet to attack other players.

    Do you even pvp?
    So you have no problem with a faction tamer statting someone and making them sit out for 20 minutes but you have issue with the tamer having to retrain the tiny amount of lost stats? Lol at that.
     
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  7. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    According to your'e logic, i'm a pvp god...I killed a miner with 5 pack horses...OMG i killed someone 6vs1 !!!!!!!!!
     
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  8. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    PvP in itself is a COMPLETE joke, sorry, I very rarley see PvP, I see gankers / whiners / immature player sitting at Yew and call it PvP. At Spawns they are still ghost cammed and mostly a waste sice players just sit back let others do the work then spend time harrasing others or actually take over the spawn all together. PvP has NOTHING to do with killing the pet. If oyu die to the Pet or tamer then so be it. If you kill the tamer so be it, but a greater dragon without its tamer is helples and everyone knows it. What needs to be reinstated is stat LOSS for reds - not just a timed out penalty actual loss and and should be direscted at ANY agresor in the fel areas. If you agress and get killed you should lose 2 - 5 skill points PERIOD. If you want to kill helpless critters take the same punishment they do if they die.
     
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  9. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    It is not as simple as you may think. There are some areas in the game (e.g Prism of Light) where the pet does not follow the player teleport to the next area. I do not know all of the areas off the top of my head, but there are many (in all facets). These will also need correcting.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  10. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    True but I believe it is only a pvp/fel issue so I think those types of areas are few and far between.

    Plus I am sure you would agree with me that not fixing something because it is tied into another different broken mechanic is kinda crazy
     
  11. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Okaaay.

    You have personally decided that there is rarely any pvp because all pvpers are gankers, whiners and immature?
    And Greater Dragons & every creature equal to them or lower is are "helpless critters"

    *Crosses another name off the rational pvp discussion list*
     
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  12. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    i take more pride in killing the pet than i do the tamer.... killing the pet before insta logs seems like more of a challenge lol
     
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  13. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Finally someone who shares my joy in killing pets lol!

    Back before ethys I used to sit at brit gate or bucs den and do nothing other then kill horses the second the owner hopped off to feed them. Gave me great joy and started alot of good fights
     
  14. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    In this case, I don't think you can have one without the other. There have been several past issues with pet logging and auto-stable, that the whole system may be past the point of "one more band-aid". It most likely needs to be overhauled, which takes time. As of now, I am content on just killing the tamer.

    Technically you are fighting 2v1 against a tamer w/ GD, so just call up a friend to even out the odds, that ought to learn 'em. ;)

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  15. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    All kill..Die..Logout..saved pet!

    I don't know what's worse the fact that all kill no skill is in PVP or the fact when they get stomped that there is no need to res your pet..the reason many "pvp" tamers have no need for vet..
     
  16. Spiritless

    Spiritless Seasoned Veteran
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    Ridiculous post. Part of playing a tamer in PvP should be that you risk a pet's death. Hell, part of playing a tamer in PvM should be that you risk a pet's death too. There is no justification for using a system whose original purpose was to prevent you from losing pets if you got DC'd to remove the risk of them dying in any scenario.

    This isn't gonna be a popular statement I know. Heck, I abuse the system to prevent my pets from dying presently too; I'll use anything to my advantage if it exists. I'm rational enough to recognize the ridiculousness of it as it stands, though. Either enforce a couple of minutes timer after logging out to prevent the present system from being abused or acknowledge that it's a legitimate tactic and simply have pets despawn as soon as their controller dies (perhaps just in PvM scenarios) without making people logout.
     
  17. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    I PvP...I swung a sword, I swung a sword again..... Ha! I had a chance to use it finally.


    In GW2 they fixed players from logging out to save their butts. If you log out in battle you still can be killed. The same should be for UO when it comes to pets. Tamer is already dead but the pet is and was being used as part of that players template so there should be no reason why the pet should be saved from a death or actually kill the player that killed the tamer in the first place just by logging out.
     
    #17 Zosimus, Mar 10, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  18. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    This mechanic is praised by the same people who screamed for trammel and insurance..but that's a different topic all together
     
  19. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    1. I completely Agree that insta logging pets in pvp is insanely dumb.

    2. While they are fixing some of that code, how about they change it so you can actually armor ignore pets for monster damage :) instead of capping at 35 (For armor ignores)
     
  20. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Sounds like a very reasonable adjustment.
     
  21. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    The reason we have Insurance is because of all the whinney little crybaby PvPers so they didn't lose thier UBBER PvP Suits. That is the main reasone they don't play SP because of no Insurance. Try again.
     
  22. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    If I recall correctly if by "UBBER" suits you mean my exceptionally crafted blue dyed leather that had about 40-50 bags of..yes you are correct!! Anywho..lets not derail this thread with another OMG play siege! Siege sucks dude! Get over it..Try Again
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I'd totally support a fix for instant logging to save pets. Not just in Fel. Put a timer in everywhere, ensure that a pet which is fighting cannot be pulled out of a fight because the tamer logged off. It's stupid in PvP. Even in Tram, it's nuts if you're in a thick spawn and a tamer beside you vanishes and leaves an angry mass of monsters chewing your rear.

    Wenchy
     
  24. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Any chance this thread could get back on track? Insurance and Siege rules are not relevant to the OP.

    Insta log of pets was a fix for pets being lost when people lost connection. The current use in pvp is, I submit, an abuse of that mechanic.
    A possible solution might be to tie the pet's disappearance from game to that of its owner. In a house or inn it instalogs, in the field it times out along with the player's character.
    I'm not sure how that would affect players who log out/in to retrieve a lost pet.
     
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  25. The Mule

    The Mule Journeyman
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    On that same not then if I decided to kill you then you should perma lose points to that you have to retrain. Not some 20 min stat loss...And this whole bad ass GD argument you have is crap too. We all know that a GD can be taken down in about 10 hits, 5 if you're me. Now if there was a 20 min stat loss for a pet on a insta log when you're dead then I think that would be an alright balance.

    Understand I only PVM and I totally abuse the insta log when I get a lag spike and die, since I dont die any other way. Now if I had to run to some bank and try to get a vet to rez my pet because of yet another spike it would get dull fast.

    Also, some all PVM tamers will log when they get to where they are going to fight to call their pet since:
    1. It takes to long to walk through most areas with it wanting to fight everything along the way.
    2. Passage ways are small and the darn thing just does not like to follow and gets hung up.
    3. Pet Summons ball does not work in most areas where it would be useful.
    4. Insert some more logical PVM stuff here
     
    #25 The Mule, Mar 10, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
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  26. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    PvPers: Fix pet insta logging, i hate how people abuse it.

    PvMers: no don't fix insta pet logging! i abuse it!
     
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  27. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    There we go fixed it for ya.
     
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  28. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    The insta log should work for Pvm..not pvp! If you're flagged crim or flee you shouldn't be able to log ur pet...period
     
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  29. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) I was only using GD's as an example that way because the poster kept referring to them as "helpless critters" and that is insulting.

    2) If you read my OP I specifically stated for pvp/fel. I have no desire to intentionally mess with amy pvm taming issues. But I will say that imo pet instalog is wrong in all situations so I dont think it would be terrible if it was across all facets as long as it wasnt bugged.

    3) Players dont lose stats when they die. Pets do. Instalog has nothing to do with that so it makes no sense that you try to compare the two.
    When a tamer and his pet attack one other player(my OP scenario)there are 3 partries involved and it is essentially a 2 vs 1.
    It makes perfect sense that the pet should also suffer consequences.
    But I guess that you should just be able to create 2 vs 1 situations and if they go bad just poof away your pet completely unharmed lol?

    Bottom line is that my OP very specifically addressed the tamer and his pet being the aggressors in fel. That is the situation that needs to be fixed.
     
  30. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    If you're pet is trying to fight everything along the way you're not using 'all follow me' in the way it was changed some time ago. A pet who has been told 'all stop' and is not guarding will follow through anywhere totally ignoring anything that attacks it.

    Take all corners wide and where possible walk, don't run. Don't get too far in front of the pet and it won't get hung up as much.
    I bring my mare out of the mines while riding a fire beetle almost every day like this - I have a pet stall that I stock.
    The command '[name] come' magically gives a pet the ability to pathfind when it has run off and seems unable to find its way back.
    (This post is meant only to try to help someone overcome these two difficulties)
     
  31. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    I dont mind the pet staying to get killed if there is no loss in its stats after death. But its unfair for the tamer to have to spend upto and hour to regain the stats that have been lost.

    I dont play a tamer in PvP, but i do play a tamer in PvM and the stat loss would just be un exceptable if i were to die and the pet had to stay until it dies. I die many times while out doing spawn and if the pet was to have to stay after i die, its stats would be going down faster than thy went up.

    Get rid of the stat loss and keep the pet in game after death.
     
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  32. The Mule

    The Mule Journeyman
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    1 Once the tamer is dead, they are helpless critters. Sure they do damage, however not in an intelligent way that should kill you.

    2. Mess with one it will mess with the other.

    3. If you faction die you stat loss for 20 minutes. My pet dies its a perms loss for points. Big difference. My point is if I choose to log instead of letting my now helpless pet die a stat loss would fit. Now I can't rez and get right back into it with that pet. But sure does beat going down to some damp cave and letting my pet beat up on something for an hour to skill back up. As an avid pvmer I have no problem with the cave, but as a pvper I know how dreadful that could be.
     
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  33. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Who thinks it is hilarious, that it is now an adopted "feature" that when you get to your destination, you logout and back in to claim your pet/dragon? Same system obviously.

    *raises hand*
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    please. a tamer in pvm will work those stats back up on a pet in one run on anything. the only argument you'd have would be the severely overcapped skills from the great dragon not going back up.
     
    #34 Cetric, Mar 11, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  35. Ron Silverbeard

    Ron Silverbeard Certifiable
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    i agree that droping a command to a pet to kill someone Needs no other skill than knowing the alphabeth ;)

    But it takes alot of skill and time to reach the Level, to command a GD in combat - dont ya Forget this pls - no possibilities to bash a poor Golem to gain taming, etc.. hehe ;)
     
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  36. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    If my pets die in Fel they are straight back into the fight once we all rez up. I don't care if they die once or a dozen times, if I had a skill limit I was prepared to lose, once I reached it I simply switched to another pair of pets or changed char. Golden rule of Fel guys, don't take something you are afraid to lose . When you visit Fel you need to stop worrying about silly skill points on your pets. Pick your fights wisely and accept the consequences when you lose.

    After death, pet skills are down a bit. So is your bank balance after the insurance payments. So guess what, you go farm gold with those pets. They gain skill, you gain gold. Even if they aren't fully trained after that, a pet does not need to be fully trained to kill. If you want to be all OCD about a skill not being maxxed, that's your choice. You don't need to maintain perfection in a pet to fight with it. They're not ornaments on a shelf, they're fighting pets. I never worried about maintaining perfect pets and it's never stopped me doing anything I wanted with them in game.

    Nobody said tamers should have it easy in PvP or even be equal in all respects to other templates. So let's not start with "we'll accept pet death if skill loss is taken out" and the like. Pets should be able to die and lose skill points. The devs didn't code in pet bonding and resurrection so you all just hit the X up the top when things got tough.

    We need to get back to the point where tamers stopped to think before throwing pets into a situation and didn't do a tactical logout as often as necessary till spawn/players died. Tamers seem to feel quite entitled to log out when it gets tough, and as one of those who tends to be on the receiving end of their abandoned spawn, I'm out of sympathy. I've seen it in Fel and in Tram and in both places it just stinks.

    Fix it now please.

    Wenchy
     
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  37. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Please, it can take upto an hour to work the magery and resist back up from one death. meele skills go back up fast. Then there is the healing on the Cu, which can take more than an hour to get back those last 2 point. No other class has to put up with stat loss for death or any other type of loss. Having to find someone to res it or the 10 minuet wait for a stable res + the financial cost is more than enough punishment
     
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  38. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Kill the pet first... A tamer without a pet is the easiest kill ever.

    Though it's much easier to kill pets with a dexer, because mages would need to use a spell book for slayer damage. and most would sacrifice their defensive skill/mage weapon to kill a pet... but in a one vs one fight, it shouldn't be hard.

    Cu-sidhe's die in just a few hits with a Pixie Swatter... plus with mortal strike it's easy to kill a cu..
    Greater Dragons, since they cannot be mounted, are even easier to kill...

    Slayer Weapons still apply additional damage against pets & players effected by them.
    The damage players take for being vulnerable against slayer properties is significantly lower than pets.
     
  39. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I dont know about an hour but I hear what you are saying. Its not fun having to train up for long lengths of time. But the % of points lost is low enough that the pet is still extremely effective even after multiple deaths so I just dont buy that as being a big issue.

    But in your own words when you mention having to find someone to res your pet you are kinda exposing another related issue. Which is that pvp tamers are all bypassing the need for the vet skill simply by logging out.
    No offense but thats another case of bs game mechanics.
    No way in the world there should be peeps running around in stone form while controlling a greater dragon and throwing bolas without some consequences to the pet. Its just that simple. I love the creativity of the template but there just should not be a 'free pass' for the pet when you factor in how much damage output it is capable of. In most cases it is responsible for 90% of the damage dealt yet it can be instantly removed from the fight just by logging out? Its a ridiculous mechanic
     
  40. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    If your greater dragon is powerful enough while at your side that you create an entire template around nothing more then "all kill" it most certainly is still strong enough alone to be a factor.
    Calling them "helpless critters" is ridiculous.

    Of course they are not strong enough alone to kill any experienced pvpers but that is not the issue at all. The issue is that on almost all tamer templates they are responsible for dealing approx 90% of the damage so they damn well should not be able to be poofed out of the fight just because things have gone wrong with the tamer.

    And I dont care how good you are there will be times that the pet does kill you after the tamer dies in a close fight. It happens enough to be a factor.

    And I still believe that it is an issue that can be corrected in fel without causing any consequences in tram so it shouild be looked at.

    Myabe the solution is to eliminate pet point loss altogether and come up with another simple penalty that does not cause the tamer to lose pvp time in a cave.

    Or put a timer on the amount of times you can instalog the pet out in a given time period. It would at least help to curb the lather,rinse,repeat effect.
     
  41. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    I whole hardly agree with you in many of your points. But unless the intent is to grief the tamer, the death of the beast should be suffice. As you pointed out most of the tamers who PvP don't run with Vet. As i said, I don't ever PvP with a tamer. My concern is PvM and i do run with Vet and magery. The new mobs kill me quite often in lvl4 of Cove i struggle to keep my dragon alive when its stats are at full. Quite often he does not make it out alive and loses stats

    But the way its being thrown about here, every time i die so will my pet, it will die by default and that's just not fair either.

    So a balance needs to be struck if the pets are to remain in danger after i die. I am all for the pets not being insta logged. But with the current set up and cost its just one nerf too far.

    If i remember rightly it cost 18k to res a dragon at the stables and a 10 minuet wait to stop the PvPer/PvMer running straight back into a fight if they don't have Vet. That's a big penalty
     
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  42. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Imagine what it would be like if you finally find that 5.0 GD, then it died on a hunt and you couldn't rez it. It was gone forever. You'd have to go back and turn the spawn over for months and probably still wouldn't find another. I think some tamers would quit over that nowadays. But that's what bonding does for you. If it wasn't for bonding, no dread would ever be running in Fel chewing players - they'd be dead and gone forever. Those super pets players pay millions for would be at risk every time you use them.

    Now, think again about that 0.1 skill loss which only hits if you let the pet die. That's the only loss you get if you let a pet die. But it's enough of a penalty that you kick yourself when you screw up. But the alternative of losing the pet forever - I think many tamers forget about how that used to happen.

    The ability to log out and save a pet hasn't encouraged tamers to be more careful or considerate in their actions - but the exact opposite. Oh let's fling a pet at some guys in Fel, then log to save it. Same in Tram. Take away skill penalty you'll find tamers get even more stupid with this. I could sit with my stealther hidden flinging and rezzing pets all day in total safety. I don't have to learn how to handle my pets or work spawn carefully. Grab a fully trained GD and play ping-pong with it. I wouldn't need to bother with a fancy template, I could just have a straight tamer with vet and eventually everything will die.

    There is no way I am going to support removing skill loss from dead pets, it would turn taming into the lamest skill in the book.

    Wenchy
     
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  43. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    instalog does cheapen the kill on the tamer. it also takes the tamer less time to get back in the fight than if he would if the pet needed rezzing.

    they should lose stats, regardless.
     
  44. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    I cant see the warrior being happy about being sent out with a silver vanq and a plain leather suit these days either so what's your point the game has moved on?

    I happen to share a different view from yours and I don't think its fair to have your pet destined to die at any spawn just because your dead and cant heal it any longer, and it loose stats along the way.

    I hate PvP tamers, so much so I don't have one nor have I ever used one.

    But were not just talking about Nerfing the PvP tamer are we, this idea would end up Nerfing the PvM tamer too. I would say its even harsher on the PvM player as each time he dies to spawn his pet will die by default too.

    So if we have a death by default the penalty's of stat loss should be removed. Or leave things the way they are and a tamer can insta log their pet to save it from stat loss.

    You cant have everything one sided, if you want to change the rules you need to balance them out.
     
    #44 Winker, Mar 11, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
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  45. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Did they ever fix the bug that was causing us to lose our pets (even bonded ones)or did they just put in the insta log to take care of it? If I am not mistaken they did not fix the bug itself they just put in a walk around because they could never find it. If the bug is not fixed (%100) then insta-log has to stay the way it is.
     
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  46. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    This debate extends beyond tamers. For those non-tamers who ride something other than an ethy (like a swampy or beetle) insta logging the pet when we die is pretty critical to staying in the fight.
     
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  47. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    :thumbsup: Problem fixed.:next:
     
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  48. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I don't like pets losing skill either, nobody does. But compared to losing the pet entirely, it's nothing.


    Then I suggest watching a few to see quite how lame they can be, the same goes for some of the tamers at events. Just watch how tamers use that tactical log out and perhaps you might realise what you're supporting and what the problem is.


    Pets don't die by default, you have options to pull them out of a fight - recalling, pet balls, just pulling them back slowly while you vet. Or not wading in over your depth and working with a group in some situations. My pets don't die every time I take them somewhere difficult, I know what we can handle and I look after them. Anyone can do that. Yes, sometimes it isn't enough. But it certainly doesn't happen often enough to be hard or problematic. I'm not a super uber tamer, my gear is years old my pets aren't the best or fully trained at any given time. So if I can cope just fine, I know I'm not asking a lot of anyone else. I have to live with any taming changes just as you have to, so there's no benefit to me in asking for an overly harsh change.

    This is not about changing any rules. It's about making a bit of code work as intended. Unless you believe the devs intended for tamers to close UO as part of their normal gameplay? Logging out is simply a sneaky trick tamers have been playing to protect their pets, and one that some would like to keep. You are logging out to prevent a pet from dying, when staying logged in would mean that pet died. It's a blatant abuse of the game mechanics that ought to be fixed. The rest of the pet bonding/death system is fine as it stands.

    Wenchy
     
  49. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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  50. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    If we put in an aggressor flag to prevent pets in battle from instantly logging out, it wouldn't effect your mount pets at all. They're not fighting, so they'd log out just as they do now.

    Wenchy
     
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