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Please fix vet-aggro on tamers already ..

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Kas Althume, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    When can we expect a fix for the aggro tamers get on boss fights? When fighting a peerless like grizzle after a couple minutes the boss will pick on the tamer, no matter what. Grizzle totally ignores any other players. Even when the tamer goes out of sight from grizzle to get a res and goes back to heal his pet the grizzle will instantly turn on the tamer and nukes his to death as soon as he gets on screen with grizzle. I know in messanas UO we are not supposed to be tamers and must play sampires but can you atleast make it fair to tamers?

    Give us something to lower the aggro. As is is now the "fix" for the non existing problem you fixed about 2 years ago ruined alot for tamers.
     
  2. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    this isnt a bug, this was put in to make tamers actually experience some game play other then "all kill" vet vet vet, rinse, repeat.

    i dont consider this 'ruining tamers'
    this actually makes you pay attention and play the game.
    there always should be at least a little adventure in your..... adventure.

    vet - agro - invis - win.
     
  3. Dizzy

    Dizzy Seasoned Veteran
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    I would rather my pet actually listen to me. Try to make it stay or come when there are tasty beasts to eat, my greater dragon is worse than a starving puppy with ADD.
     
  4. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    Does it only happenw hen you use vet? Or when you cast heal spells on it as well?
     
  5. Whitewolf of *VK*

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    in fights like those you just stand at max distance and cast heal on your pet, you pull aggro just invis, heck only time i ever use vet skill anymore is to res my pet or someones elses pet, with spellweave my heal spells heal way more and way faster then bandages
     
  6. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    A weaver got aggro after 2 Greater Heals on the GD while not having done any damage to the Grizzle at all. The pet is basically stuck once Grizzle casts his area spells

    @Poo: What's the difference between a tamer doing the all kill vet thing and a sampire doing nothing but standing still waiting for the boss to die? Once that bug happens the tamer is out of the game. He and his pet haves to stay dead until the grizzle is dead. Vet - aggro - invis doesnt work on grizzle. You can't stand in the goo but your pet is stuck in there. With grizzle chasing the tamer there is goo all over the place.
     
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  7. Whitewolf of *VK*

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    i dunno i have done grizzle a few times as a tamer and have never experinced that problem, course i was in a group of 6-8 player each time
     
  8. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    There's something new with most champs, they occasionally take 1 damage when you're within a certain range of it, this 1 damage tick seems to make some champs switch targets often, it's what you experience in Shadowguard>The Armory.

    It happens with Semidar & Barracoon, not sure if it's all champs, or just certain ones.

    This is probably what the OP is experiencing, not sure if it was an intentional change or not, but the whole healing/aggro thing has been fixed for pets. unless the pet has been provoked onto perhaps (via bard skill)...
     
  9. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    Two out of 3 grizzles in the last 2 days had that bug happen. 1 behaved like normal and 2 totally bugged out. This is not fixed. I can see the Grizzle instantly switching target onto me as soon as I res or get on screen with the Grizzle, totally ignoring the oher damage dealers. The whole monster model turns grey. I havn't tested other big bosses since tamers are pretty pointless there
     
  10. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    I dont think it is a bug......I agree with those who say this was an intended change that got the intended results......and I like it as it is!
     
  11. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    I noticed that too, which might be why the Travesty I did a few days after the expansion hit would constantly retarget me & the guy I was with. At least it's not every monster doing it - I'd cry if Paragons could.

    Originally I thought something was borked with monster AI, but the spawn in the Tram Turtle spawn (and I would assume Fel's does it, by extension) exhibit this behavior as well, with them even being able to aggro on me when they're not even on my screen. It certainly does make things more challenging, which is never a bad thing.
     
  12. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    I have to agree with the original poster.
    I agree because on smaller shards artifacts from these encounters are hard enough to come by. By limiting the character build that can do these bosses we will see even less of these items. Many people have already gave up trying with their tamers.

    Lets go ahead and Nerf the necro builds too and see how much crying comes from that, spellweaving is way overpowered lets nerf that too. The Idea behind the NERF TO TAMERS may have been made with good intentions but it is a flat out kick in the face.
     
  13. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Just one more nail in the coffin for the vet skill.

    Tamers with vet are far and away not suited for melee combat with mobs... that is what the pet is for... yet we must be right next to the pet to use the skill. Unless this is changed back, the vast majority of vet skill will only reside on soul stones.

    On the topic of agro... I think there still may be an underlying issue here. I ressed a guild mate in T2A yesterday and a horse... Yes a normal, untamed horse, up on a ledge where no one would have attacked it, went agro on me. I can't figure any logical reason based on the monster agro rules pre-pub 90 that it should have done that.
     
  14. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    Just to be clear here.... we are discussing a change that came into the game OVER 2 YEARS AGO!?!?!
    Publish 82;

    That change came into the game June 24, 2013 and you guys are mad about it now?
    I've already stated i like the change but i just find it funny that some people are noticing it for the first time now, over 2 years after it was introduced into the game.

    also keep in mind that this change was introduced so that you could get looting rights as a healer, so i suppose if we pull this change out we should then not allow people who are healing others and others pets to get looting right or count as helping to kill, yes?
    To me is seems like a fair exchange, we get looting rights for being nice and healing and for this we have to be careful because that might flag us against the bad critters.
    cause that wouldn't happen in RL would it, if you run into the middle of a fight and start helping someone the 'bad people' would not see you as a target to agro on would they, heavens no.
     
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  15. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    I think you're misunderstanding. We aren't talking about the healing part of it, which we've known about for over 2 years. If it IS working that way, fine. But it should work for ALL monsters, which it isn't.

    I can still fight the vast majority of monsters in this game, and they won't retarget on me, even with someone else helping to heal, should I need it. Monsters that didn't exhibit this behavior prior to Publish 90/the expansion, like the ML Peerless, are now doing it, even if it's your own pet. That is what's broken, as is the ability of EVERYTHING in the Eodon spawn possessing the ability to target you when you can't even see them (in the CC anyway, EC may be different)
     
  16. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    Maybe

    Damage Done to Boss VS Damage Healed that was done by boss?

    Greater of the two results in the higher enmity.

    I miss the gold old days when you could hold aggro just by being the closest one to the boss.
     
  17. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    its worked for the last 2 and a half years im guessing you just havnt fought anything that has high enough AI for it to matter.

    the new stuff in Eoden has new super improved AI on pretty much all of the mobs.

    yes, they are suppose to target you even if its your own pet - because you are healing it.
    heal ANYTHING or ANYONE and you run the risk of agroing a mob.

    and Peerless bosses have always had the risk of retargeting when you heal.
    i know personally i dont see it much because the stuff i kill dies so fast, but they do re-target.
     
  18. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    I did multiple small group (2-3 people) Trav and Mel runs a while before the xpac - we never had either one retarget us if we were out of range, and we could heal with impunity. I did 2-man Grizzle and Dread Horn too, but I don't remember them all that well.

    It's not a question of the AI, btw, since I regularly fight boss-level monsters. I've had my greater go toe-to-toe with Paragon Balrons/Ancient Wyrms and never had an issue healing them with magery/vet up close, even after the expansion. There is something wrong in the coding of some monsters that's causing them to act this way. Look at Shadowguard/The Armory. The Ensorcelled Armors take damage even if nothing is attacking them.
     
    #18 drcossack, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
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  19. DifferenceDifference

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    I really don't understand why you would like this change. It makes the game more tedious. Period. Is that more fun? Really?
    No offense meant! I just don't understand how this means "more fun" for you guys.

    As for the argument - this is more like real life: f**k real life! I want to play a medieval game full of dungeons, dragons and magic. I don't want to play "real life". That's right outside the door. We've got hundreds of thousands of refugees in Europe now. If I wanna help someone, I can go volunteer and help refugees and risk being attacked by Nazis.
    I don't want the tediousness of real life in my game.
     
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  20. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    For the record, you should probably do your homework before you come in here with your out of date comments.

    TWO YEARS AGO THEY FIXED IT.

    Publish 82 Updates - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia
     
  21. Dizzy

    Dizzy Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm still mad about difficulty-based barding from Publish 16, and that was 13 years ago.
     
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  22. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    How the hell can you rez any UNTAMED anything in UO? UNTAMED horse dies it goes poof, BS getting a little deep here people.
     
  23. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I ressed a PLAYER (guildmate in the original post) and the untamed horse went agro. Better reading comprehension??

    I could see the horse going agro if the player I ressed had attacked it, but the horse was up on a ledge away from the fight. We stepped away from the battle to do the res. No logical reason based on the way agro is supposed to work according to the publish notes for that horse to go agressive to me.
     
    #23 Merus, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
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  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Maybe you need to try better writing skills.
     
  25. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, clearly in the original post I indicated that I ressed an untamed horse... Most definitely.
     
  26. Dizzy

    Dizzy Seasoned Veteran
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    Alright. Put down your grammar pencils, go outside and fight.
     
  27. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    when i read that it says nothing about not going agro when healing your own pet.
     
  28. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    i know that we, tamers, as a class are historically very lazy but come on, your telling me that you guys are getting your panties in a knot because you have to do more then yell all kill and spam your heal macro button?
    you might actually have to take a step back and pop an invis and this is a game ending scenario for you?

    holy hell, the bar of opulence has been risen.

    go out, kill stuff, enjoy.
    its not difficult!
     
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  29. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    It clearly exempts ALL pets....

    Healing only applies aggression... if the healed target is NOT a PET.

    Just because they didn't list every possible scenario of how a pet could be healed does not negate the statement that healing a pet would not pull agro.
     
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  30. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    if it was stated clearly would we be having this discussion?
     
  31. Santos

    Santos Journeyman
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    Grizzle is the only thing this happens with? Move along.
     
  32. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Direct quote from the updated Publish 82 Notes:

    "Healing now only applies aggression towards a healed targets aggressors, if the healed target is not a pet, the healed target is not the healer, and the healed target has attacked the aggressor."

    I don't know any other way to read that statement but to interpret that if the healed target is a pet that it does not apply aggression.

    If you were referring to the general topic of this entire thread, it sounds like something changed with Publish 90... either intentionally (and not disclosed) or unintentionally. I have not personally tested it outside of the new lands with a pet. I can definitely say that the mobs in the new lands retarget a lot... but that does not seem to be unique to tamers. I did however notice the example I posted above regarding the untamed horse going aggressive on me when I ressed someone in T2A. My example would seem to go against the third disclaimer in the publish 82 notes. I am certain that the person I ressed had not attacked the horse, therefore it should have had no reason to attack me.
     
  33. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    No, Grizzle is not the only thing this happens with. Travesty, who normally never aggros on players who are far enough away, now does so regularly. Other things do the same, when it's you healing YOUR OWN PET.

    What you and Poo don't seem to be understanding is that not everything is doing this. The notes for Publish 82 NEVER said that healing your own pet would cause things to switch aggro, although there are a few things that do so. Right now, only a small # of monsters are doing it, when they normally never exhibited such behavior.
     
  34. Jynxx

    Jynxx Journeyman
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    Whatever was implemented two years ago is not what we are complaining about. These bosses are suddenly doing some crazy aggro that just doesn't make sense.

    I stated in another thread that the Effusion seemed to not care about anything but chasing my tamer around. It was ridiculous, and this didn't matter if I was healing or not.


    I went down to do a few more with a guildmate and brought a mystic instead. Even just standing there after invising - the Effusion lost interest in the dragon and RC beating on him to spend half the fight chasing us around.


    I understand that bosses should be aggressive, but to the point they're not that interested into what is directly attacking them? Something was changed with TOL and it's not fun. Especially when it doesn't balance anything out. Sure didn't affect whammys or samps.
     
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  35. Santos

    Santos Journeyman
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    The fact that it only happens with a few bosses is why I have a hard time finding any sympathy. If it was everything, then I would feel for you.
     
  36. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    Let me guess, you main a sampire/whammy for pvm?
     
  37. Santos

    Santos Journeyman
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    Yep and I don't complain about tainted aura bosses.
     
  38. Caelyr

    Caelyr Adventurer

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    Maybe we ought to confirm the mechanics responsible for the change in gameplay before accusing the game of being 'broken'. Frankly, I've been disappointed at the AI in the game, and how easy it is to tank, and trick, and exploit. I think the changes we're seeing are adding an element of risk back to the game that hasn't been present since players found yet easier ways of killing things. I think changes to the AI are far preferable to bosses that have simply been buffed so much that you aren't given much of a chance when they do eventually swing for you. I like a fair kind of difficulty, offering the chance to react, rather than stuff that can kill me in two hits, and never miss.


    Also, on the subject of 'more tedious'; I cant really sympathise, because these apparent changes - as I've experienced them - have made playing tamer a little more difficult, and actually given me an incentive to play one of my least logged-into characters. Tedious is doing the same unchallenging task several times a week for 10 or more years.

    And - for the record - tamers haven't been nerfed. Have you SEEN the mastery abilities? I understand the impulse, but is it beyond this community to avoid this kind of whining? So the mechanics are revised, and it forces you to play in a manner that is closer to the experience players and developers first envisioned.

    Oh no, change! Before you recoil in fear, give it a good honest go. Try to adapt, I dare you.
     
  39. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    There is a fine line between improved AI on Mobs and stupidity...

    Like upping the HP to ridiculous proportions... Longer time whacking at something is not fun.... it's tedious.... Upping the regen rate on mobs again..... NOT fun just tedious. Any fool can stand there and smack away at something.

    Spawning mobs 1 right after another in a constant and stead stream again not so much fun.... if you have no time to loot what is the point of killing it.

    Giving mobs insane amounts of damage output.... 1 hit killing people again NOT fun. Everyone likes a challenge but to not even have a chance at defense is stupid.

    At the same rate slowing the spawn so you stand around picking your nose for 15 min between spawn also NOT fun.

    As a tamer just saying all kill..... point and click not fun. But having to constantly pull your pet off to Vet it because you can't come within 6 tiles of your pet without getting 1 hit killed also NOT fun. Killing something and working very hard to keep your pet alive as well as getting to cast a few spells yourself to help your pet is Fun... trying to heal your pet and getting sucked in isn't terrible.... but when you get sucked in and are completely paralyzed and instantly killed is NOT fun.

    Going on a hunt with your guild used to be fun... now there really aren't many places you can go as a guild and have fun.. either the spawn rate is too slow so everyone stand about with their thumb up their butts or in their ears... while 1 or 2 people kill things... or it takes so freaking long to get keys no one wants to go by the time you get them.

    Would be nice if places sped up the spawn rate and such dependent on how many players are in the area much like the Guardian Room in Doom. Some of the places in Shadowguard are like this but they get ridiculous too quickly... and the loot sucks...

    Most everyone I know won't do Shadowguard again because it takes too long to get through it... and you can't do many of the rooms with more than 2 people without making it a total cluster....

    And supposedly the trade deals are supposed to be tailored to the skill of the character taking the quest... well most my good characters have no problems doing the quests but earlier I tried doing one on a character that was about 60% built... slow healing and slow swingspeed, coupled with no special moves and low level skills made it nearly impossible to kill the mobs. Not fun and not tailored well... Rolled a gargoyle an Ogre and 2 briggands... the gargoyle was nearly impossible to kill since he kept healing himself over and over... the Ogre hit so hard I couldn't come near him and the 2 briggands were quick enough that they made it hard for me to try to stay on any one target. Not sure what skills it was going off of for scaling but they sure weren't designed for my characters lack of skills. Top that with that silly delay now on consecrate and well.... it stunk. I already get frozen just trying to heal with SS.

    I don't mind mobs turning and agroing on me... so long as I can get away quickly and hide.

    What I find more annoying than anything is the bug that when your pet is agro'd on something on some other server and you gate away how he won't move when he goes on the attack.... so something that is attacking you he just stands there like an idiot until you bring what ever it is over to your pet. You can get them to follow you saying stop all follow me but then as soon as you give the attack command they are rooted in place. The only fix I know of for this is to log out and wait 2 to 5 min.... and log back in..... honestly more of a pain than any agro.
     
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  40. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Considering Taming is the hardest skill in the game to gain, i wouldn't consider Tamers lazy. Except for the ones that just eat a Mythic Token and throw on +15 Taming/Lore Jewelry.
    Certain bosses already have measures that are meant to cause them to retarget, such as the AoE DP that Dreadhorn and Paroxysmus do, the Life Steal Aura of Semidar, or how some bosses will teleport you to them if your pet/summon damages them, like Dreadhorn and Mephitis.

    There is definitely something going on with bosses now. I've seen Mephitis absolutely fixate on one player, completely ignoring everyone else, and even after Mephitis killed the player, he continued to attack the player's ghost.
    I've heard many reports recently too that sometimes a Peerless/Champ will fixate on someone so hard, that the person basically has to sit out the fight in invis, for if they come out of invis/hiding even for a second, the boss wants their ****.
     
  41. Caelyr

    Caelyr Adventurer

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    Yes, but I communicated this last point in my post. To reiterate: changes made to the AI, and changes made to stats and attack power are not the same thing. They're not mutually exclusive however, and I expressed a preference for smarter mobs without insane damage, speed, and hit chance.


    If you're talking about the Shadowguard rooms, I think that one answers itself. If not, where is this happening?
    It's possible to solo 2 abyss mini-champs in that amount of time. There's plenty that could be done in 15 minutes. If you intended on farming something repeatedly, you could increase productivity by doing something other than waiting.
    What are you talking about? Exodus? Not every character is good everywhere, and frankly anything that can be neatly chiselled down with 1 dragon and vet heals from a single tamer is neither difficult nor fun, and so should not be rewarding. Maybe change your tactics if you're having trouble using that one in a specific instance. Maybe don't solo it. Maybe get someone to heal with you..
    I haven't found this to be the case at all - me and some friends got 3-5 Mel keys each in a relatively short space of time, and did around a dozen runs, which is how I discovered things had changed.

    On that subject, Mel's AI seems quicker to target and attack, and will also switch targets more reliably due to heals and invises. I'm fine with this, but it makes her old-style difficulty (buffed beyond reason) somewhat more bothersome - I'd die in a few attacks after she teleported in (stupid walk speed) from off-screen after I invised an archer trying to get honor. These were our old tactics. They no longer work so well. We eventually confirmed this, and will probably be doing it differently from now on.
    The loot for the Shadowguard encounter occurs on the final boss in the roof. The rooms aren't for farming in. They're equivalent to keys. The loot was updated to reflect the difficulty of the encounter, and how hard it is to loot stuff while you're in there. I like that spawn in the final encounter doesn't drop loot. I don't like it when players are given the option of self-interest over teamplay.
     
  42. Tabby Kapak

    Tabby Kapak Journeyman
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Benefactor

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    That retargetting is very annoying, when trying to heal a guildy's GD, Rikktor kept retargetting both healers immediately when coming within sight, and invising didn't seem to help at all. As a result, the dragon died. That is not challenging, that is making things impossible! So the consequence is, that guildy can stop enjoying the Champs, and from reading the comments above, all Peerless as well. Of course tamers are not suitable in every situation, (and we know Rikky can be done easier without tamer,) but we also want to allow our guildy to join in in such previously fun hunts. Will be very hard for tamers to get the masteries started then?
    Btw, also saw that "1 damage" on Rikktor. Didn't understand what that was. So thanks to everyone above for sharing their experiences, something clearly is wrong. And if this is as intended, it would have been nice to read about it. As it is, we can't find a use for a tamer now.