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Please include Disarm in any new Specials revamp

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goldberg-Chessy, Oct 15, 2012.

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  1. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Disarm for sure needs to be revamped. It has never been anything other then a crutch for unskilled pvpers.

    Nothing else in the game negates an entire template so easily and so quickly. It can be done by a huge variety of other templates and can be chained. It has been a joke since the first day it was introduced.

    Not to mention that it completely bypasses any sense of realism at all. I understand that many other things in the game are also not true to life but how that fark in the world is a Mage with little to no dexterity and something already being held in his hands able to wrest away a weapon that is being held with both hands by a warrior with 5x more dexterity and equal or more strength? Is the Mage doing it with his teeth? Seriously?

    And there is nothing sillier then 2 warriors figthing each other for 3 hours because they are each chaining disarm.
    Why start a fight if there can be no winner? An exercise in wasting bandages is all you get.

    But what is most perplexing is that a move was introduced in the first place that allows a Mage to completely negate a Warriors entire template but the Warrior has no move of his own that does the same to the Mage?
    You could make a slight case for the weapon Paralyze move but 1, it still doesnt come close to the same effectiveness and 2, it was nerfed long ago because of incessant whining by Mages. One of the worst side effects is that once the weapon is disarmed it blows up certain weapon/move toggles. This allows the move to also act as a disrupt in a sense.

    Its also so much extra fun when getting ganked. Freshly dismounted with 3 people beating on you? Pretty bad but once one of them flips a drive-by disarm on you it is all over as you now lost all of your invested defensive weapon skill points and get hit every time by other warriors.
    What does this to a Mage? Why cant I flip a drive-by, chainable move that will make it so they cant cast a spell such as invis or teleport or recall for the same amount of time as the Disarm?
    I dont believe in changing anything solely for gank purposes but some things are just too effective and Disarm is #1 on that list.

    Bottom line is that until warriors have a move that can completely negate any casting for the same duration and be so easily chained the same way it is a grossly imbalanced move that at the very least simply needs a cool-down timer.
     
  2. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    Wow. I really like disarm. I was hoping for more moves like disarm in this revamp, because it actually works as advertised.

    Most of the weapon specials are like having a Mage spell called flame strike that hits for 6 damage.
     
    #2 Capt.E, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2012
  3. Otis Leroy Funk

    Otis Leroy Funk Journeyman

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    Disarm is more than fair when fighting a mage that uses a mage weapon.
     
  4. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Keeper
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    should be able to disarm shields.
     
  5. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Also the OP could get wrestling on his template if he doesn't like being disarmed and having no defensive skill. I've seen dexers do it in pvp and it has been effective on top of it. Guess it's a personal choice, it comes down to how much you hate being disarmed because that is already an option, if you're not using it, well then it's your fault.

    Disarm works on both mages and dexers alike so I'm not sure what you're crying about? Most mages that want any kind of offense that aren't on an outdated pure mage(even with the sdi) need mage weps for their template to work. This opens them up to being vulnerable to disarm as the trade off.

    Sometimes disarm is needed, and it's working as intended. It's not as if you can't put on wrestling so if your wep is disarmed you can continue to disrupt the caster, and it would work for your complaint about being disarmed and hit every time. Problem solved it seems.
     
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  6. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) SC Mage Weps are the most overpowered and wrong items in the game. Giving Mages full defensive ability with 0 skill points tied to it is so wrong its indescribable. Please spare me the outdated template nonsense. Mages in no way need to rely on Mage Weps. They have plenty of skill points available. Hell, half of them run 120 Ninja these days cuz the Mage Wep allows it.
    So saying Disarm works alike on warriors vs mages is a complete joke. Mages also still have full offensive capability when disarmed. The Warrior has no offensive capability and is left defenseless.
    You obviously dont pvp or would never had said anything so silly, no offense.

    2) Again, your lack of pvp knowledge is an excuse but do you really believe that a disarmed warrior with wrestling can chase around and disrupt a mage with his ranged spell attack? Wow.

    3) Personal choice? You are saying that EVERY warrior in the game should have to cram on Wrestling because one overpowered and wrong special move was introduced as a crutch?
    Of course that also means that you didnt even take into account that all decent warriors also need to have 120 resist spells as a defense against mages.
    So that is now 240 points that you believe ALL warriors should have to have crammed on? All the while the mage gets 100% of his defense handed to him on a ridiculously overpowered and easy to obtain Sc Mage Wep? *shakes head*
     
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  7. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I've stopped using disarm in PvP as the only result in single player combat is waiting for the target to stop running. Ganking its over powered and spells death for whom ever is the reciever 90% of the time.

    IMO disarm and -mage weapons NEED to be kicked out of the game, -mage weapons are far worse but both are horrible.

    Sorry but the only people who could say that mage weapons are even slightly close to cool are the same that feel that cleansing winds is a fine and even spell.
     
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  8. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Disarm should be like parry based on dex...that would fix a lot.

    Also put a cool down on the special...not like we don't have them already

    IMHO the best way to address disarm would be a new ability (grip) name
    Of it does not matter, but if you have 120 wep, tactics, 150 dex and 70 a disarm should fail 80% of the time

    I have been playing since the beginning and have watched every class get hit with the nerf stick guess it's time for gargs

    Doesn't matter because EA will have a new expansion with Dwarfs that kill with their breath, just as long as you give EA your $$$


    Last thing can we please fix resisting spells...120 skill points gives the same results as o skill points when cursed, you lose 10 to all elemental resists...yes I know about the stats and the ability to resist certain spells...make curse one of them and at 120 resisting spells only let my elemental resists drop 2 or 3.

    If this isn't fubared then why does every Mage cast curse every third spell....really devs fix this!,,
     
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  9. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    Maybe they could make arms lore required for disarm
     
  10. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
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    you also need to look at -mage weapons, thats more over powered than disarm
     
  11. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    This is definately a topic I am passionate about Weapon Special Move Review | Stratics: A Career Path in Gaming, so I would like to just add some detail to the thread. I rarely agree with everything Goldberg posts, but he made some good points that are difficult to refute entirely.

    This is an accurate statement, Disarm is instant, not interruptible, repeatable, and costs as little as 9 mana.

    This is also true. While disarmed, mages can still utilize some of their spells (especially with protection on), granted at increased risk to themselves. If the warrior had wrestling he is still at a disadvantage to a mage, the occasional 5 damage interrupt (or non-interrupt with protection) is not something to worry about.

    This brings me to the point that the main issue is warrior vs. warrior, as most mages are running mage weapons anyway. Lets say a frustrated warrior gets wrestling for defense, now when disarmed he can disarm as well... I hope you can see where I am going with this, both players might as well log out. This also doesn't take into consideration how restrictive some templates can be currently.

    In my opinion it is even worse than this example. I would need 120 resist for defense against Sleep mostly, 120 wrestle for a nuclear deterrent inspired "defense" against Disarm, and at least 110 (I do not enjoy failing a transform) ninja for defense against dismount ganks, leaving me with a truly limited amount of points to work with.

    The Disarm special move functions well as a tactical tool, but the mechanic is extremely abusive when spammed and the simplest solution is to add a cooldown.
     
    #11 ShadowTrauma, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  12. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Disarm should just have a cooldown as mentioned by some people in *Pvp needs some attention* thread, I agree with the OP disarm is definitely a crutch special,
    maybe the cooldown can be reduced based on tactics & weapon skill but disarm should be at least 50% Less Effective if Archery or Throwing are factored in

    If tactics wasn't required for weapon special moves, most of my mages would have weapon skills instead of using -15/-20 mage-weapons. but you get NO Benefit for having 120 weapon skill vs the virtually free mage-weapons, instead you need to invest minimum of 210 skill points (weapon skill + tactics)...

    Maybe Mage-Weapons should reduce the wielders DCI Cap by -10 (one handed weapons) and -5 DCI Cap (two-handed weapons).
    I suggest reducing the cap DCI for mage weapons only, because the current caps & property intensities make it easy to compensate for reduced current DCI.

    Btw, I currently have absolutely no mages with weapon skills, mage weapons are all I use on any character I have with magery... and even if there would be a penalty for -mage weapons I probably still won't take a weapon skill for any magery-based character, because 210 skill-points in-place of -15/-20 is worthless to me.
     
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  13. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Disarm, Deadly Posion, moving shot for the win
     
  14. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    just make some sort of thing where weap skill/tact adds some sort of "parry" to the disarm ability. Dexers don't get disarmed so easily, mages with mage weapons do, win win? If they did that though, there would need to be a little trade off with a mage with 120 wrestling and 2 specials at his disposal. Wrestling should still disarm fairly high, but able to be resisted as well.

    I pretty much only disarm throwers and mage weapon mages on my dexer, leave the rest alone cause they just run away anyways.
     
    #14 Cetric, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  15. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Disarm should:

    • Be based on user's total weapon skill (with equipment) against the REAL (non-mage armor, non-UBWS) Weapon skill without equipment of the target for that weapon. The special move will not trigger on a successful parry.
    • Magery (or other casting skill) should only come into play if you're trying to disarm a spellbook, in which case the casting skill for the book being disarmed is used.
    • Shields should be disarmable, with real Parry skill counting.
    • Persons using spellbooks would have shield be the first item disarmable, while all others go weapon first.
    • Two-handed melee weapons should be at a penalty to be disarmed. However, ranged weapons should count as 1-handed for this, and Balanced weapons should be EASIER to disarm, because of their being made to allow better potion use.
    • On a disarm attempt, successful or not, there should be a chance for the weapons to get tangled and the ATTACKER be disarmed as well.
    • Disarm should be made to work on any monster that has default normal equipment of that type in their loot, especially if shown using it in their graphic (example, orcs with their two-headed axes, Executioners and their executioner's axes), reducing the damage and hit chance (And suspending damage reflect, for the executioners) for the duration.
     
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  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Overly complicated, some good points, but just overly complicated for the casual user to care about.
     
  17. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No what allows it is mysticism because focus is the eval(so its working 2 fold no other skill does that for a template) so they don't need med. If it were set up like it use to be where imbuing where a part of it then people couldn't jam lots of skills on that template. Mages have full offensive capability ...provided they aren't getting hit which is a very low chance if they are missing their mage wep. All I do is pvp, and unlike you I do it in a small group and crush you while you're in a zerg. So talking about pvp is kind of funny coming from you.

    2- Yes I do believe a disarmed warrior especially with wrestilng can chase around and disrupt a mage, a mage will have to stop and cast, wrestling on a dexer works wonders for disrupting. You do the math on 150 dex with wrestling with hit lower d and 45 hci, i'm willing to bet they will land quite a few punches(especially if you're disarming them if you have wrestling). After a disrupt or two you'd be able to rearm your wep and disrupt with that.

    3- Yes it's a personal choice. Did I say you HAVE to? No. I said it's an option if you hate disarm that much. I've seen dexers add it who don't like being disarmed and being defenseless.
    3b- Why are you trying to single out a dexer with resist? A mage would need it more than a dexer, a dexer can still heal and do damage without mana, a mage on the other hand can't do either. So it's a mage needs it much more than a dexer. Mages all have 240 in your argument Magery + Resist. A mage doesn't get 100% defense. He gets 50% as it's a 50/50 they get hit by someone with equal fighting skill and hci. It also turns into no defense when the mage wep gets disarmed. Mage weps are the only way that all these different templates can exist. Show me how you could fit the skills on a necro mage, a full on ninja mage, an alchy poison scribe mage? I realize that you're dexer based, but use your head. They were introduced over 10 years ago for a reason, they still have the same downside they did before.
     
  18. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    A lot of templates rely on it to fit skills on it so that everyone isn't running around playing the same template, like a wrestle scribe mage, or a fencing poison mage.
    Unless you know of a different way to make keep UO a sandbox so that everyone isn't forced to play the same template, similar to whats happened with dexers because certain skills that should count toward the 300 skill point change don't.

    Disarm and mage weps don't need to be kicked out of the game, they are the ying and yang to each other. You have a problem with one, the other is the solution.
     
  19. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    Getting rid of SC Mage weapons is a move in the wrong direction. That will further limit the available templates to pvp.

    Disarm does almost 0 damage. So you have to actually land 3 to 4 more specials before the target is in trouble.

    If you are talking about surviving with 4+ people on you, who know how to pvp, you are living in a world of delusion.

    Yes spam disarm is annoying but it won't kill you. You just have to either a) land something that hurts them. Or b) run or move. It's not difficult. Some people do it to get you rattled, so you make errors.

    I can name about 10-12 special moves that do absolutely nothing in pvp or Pvm. Why are we talking about nerfing one that actually works?
     
    #19 Capt.E, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2012
  20. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Dexxers should have some similar type of free 100+ skill point item then, the huge bonus that it gives is unmatched elsewhere in the game.
     
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  21. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm not even going to touch the Mage weapon debate at this time.

    You aren't wrong, disarm spam by itself won't kill you and you most certainly can move or run. You are also correct when you say it is annoying and some people do it to rattle others. Now here is where my opinion obviously differs from others. I do not see the logic in keeping a mechanic unchanged that has been called annoying, trollish, a crutch, etc... It certainly does nothing to entice new players to try PvP, if you have one move that can render their warriors useless for an extended period of time and it is repeatable...

    Now I don't want to see it removed either, I understand the tactical value it can have if it becomes balanced. I have suggested a 10 second immunity cooldown, my view being; If you are going to take control away from how someone plays their character for 5 secs, then giving them double the amount of time protected from the same experience is reasonable. I can guarantee you there would still be players spamming it every time Disarm is off the cooldown.
     
    #21 ShadowTrauma, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    you know... i'd actually have wrestling on some dexers if it counted towards the 300skill lmc thing.. *grumbles*
     
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  23. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Use best weapon.

    Next?
     
  24. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No other special has a cool down, this should be no different just because people don't like it.

    Again adding wrestling is an option for both mage or dexers. In fact I fought a dexer who was smart and had throwing and wrestle, it got to the point I found it was not beneficial for me to disarm him. In fact it hurt me more to do this and the only way I could kill him was not disarming.

    That being said even in 1v1's I've found anyone that tries to start with a disarm won't kill someone who is good. When it doubles that second special that is the first bit of damage it really puts a damper on their mana situation.

    Also when we talk about outnumbering someone, do you really think disarm is the reason your dying, or perhaps the 4 people in this picture that has been painted for us by the OP? If my choices were to fight someone who was disarming or fight a 4v1, I'll take the disarm.
     
  25. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    Force Arrow: This attack provides a 20% damage increase. Additionally it will reduce the target’s defense chance by 10%. This attack can also be stacked multiple times for a further DCI reduction of 5% per stack and 2 second duration increase. The Dazed effect, will provide a GUARANTEED spell interrupt. Even if the target is under the effect of protection. Once this effect wears off, it cannot be re-applied for 10 Seconds.

    Its not just because people don't like it, it is a bad play experience to have to endure. I hope to grow the playerbase and this would be a step in the right direction, no game should have a mechanic where you can repeatedly dictate how someone plays (or in this case not play...) their character.
     
    #25 ShadowTrauma, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
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  26. Nyses

    Nyses Lore Keeper
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    Not really. Mage weapon is magery = free melee skill, UBW is melee skill = free OTHER melee skill. If they were similar Warriors would have a weapon property that gave them 100 magery, based on having 120 in a melee skill.'

    Since mages got casting focus, albeit, only attainable to a low percentage, why not give Warriors a property like ummm.......... Tactical Evasion, as a -40 or so property that is based on Tactics and allows Tactics to be used to activate the bushido ability evasion. Or base it on Parry or something, but it would give the Non Samurai the ability to evade some spell damage in a fight.
     
  27. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No, you use magery to get an equivalent. UBW You use one fighting skill to get the equivalent in another. Whether you like it or not dexers have it even better since they have access to a wide array of weapons that posses the specials they want and they can cherry pick for weapons that have faster base swing speeds, and better combos of specials. Off of fencing you can have access to swords for a harvester which is the best mortal wep for meele. You'd have access to a club for the best dismounting weapon for it's speed in macing ect ect. Instead of being stuck with a 5 second lance, or a wep that has higher swing speed and a terrible special combo instead of a harvester.

    Also mages have casting focus probably because they have to stop to cast and can get disrupted. Last I checked you can't weaken a moving shot, also you don't have to stop to do a lot of specials.

    No one has addressed the fact that without mage weapons all mages would be in the same position as dexers are as far as being pigeon holded into playing a very limited amount of templates.
     
    #27 Speaking the Truth, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  28. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Please. There is nothing else in the game as gimp as +15 magery rings and -15 mage weapons. If they weren't so overpowering you'd actually see people running without them but that is hardly the case. Side by side a mage temp using the -wep is far more stacked than a comparable dex set up.
     
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  29. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Oh my, I completely forgot about that special that no one uses that was added years after disarm. Touche.
     
  30. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Uhh, warriors are not pigeon holed anywhere bud. All different kinds running around all over the shard. Where r you playing?

    You are so obviously blind to the truth & mage biased you just dont get it bud.

    The point was quite clearly that Disarm leaves ANY warrior completely defenseless as compared to a mage still having all his defense spells when his mage wep is disarmed.

    Trying to twice say that wrestling is the answer for a warrior is so ridiculous and insulting it is laughable.
    Half the pvpers on any shard are chaining disarm all night long. Your answer is what? Cramming on wrestling. While at the same time you are trying to state that mages need mage weps for template diversity? Do you realize how badly you contradict yourself?

    In your own words your big solution to chain disarm is to get wrestling. Do you realize that means that almost every warrior will have to have the exact same template? The exact same 5 skills plus whatever weapon skill he chooses. Do the math bud:
    120 tactics,120 anatomy,120 healing,120 resist,your insanely silly 120 wrestle, and then what? Uhh, your primary 120 weapon skill. No room for ninja or bush or chiv. Uhh, arent they kinda warrior skills lol?

    Or should your warrior leave out healing or resist because you say wrestling is his answer? Too funny.

    Your nonsense boils down to you being so clueless as to how to build an effective caster you are trying to wrongly petition that mage weps are the only way to go all in the name of what? Template diversity. Thats the biggest crutch excuse ever.
    You wont even admit how overpowered mage weps are. A common item that supplants 120 skill points and has gigantic amounts of dci built in. Wow.
     
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  31. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No, it's the fact that it's the only way you can have a template that fits everything. No one was complaining when it was a staff of the magi over a decade ago. Or when everyone didn't have access to +magery rings on demand. It was okay when mages had 100 magery so dexers could hit them at a very high %.

    UBW is the same thing and you don't hear every mage up in arms.
     
  32. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Theres a reason that 90% of pvpers are stealthers, fencer/archers( or were) or thowers. It's the easiest way to fit the 300 combat points, show me a shard where there are pure characters all over. You never see a chiv archer anymore, you don't see tamers unless they have speed hacking pets. You don't even bushido since everyone wants ninja to run away.

    Goldberg anything coming from you relating to pvp is comical. You're terrible and only fight if you have numbers and still die.

    A disarmed mage would be just as defenseless, they will be hit almost every single time(same % as a disarmed warrior) just because they have the potential to cast doesn't mean they will get a spell off.

    I said its a solution, I didn't say you HAVE to have it. If you want to complain about it you can tailor your character so its not getting you killed since you're claiming the disarm is the problem in your situation, not the fact that it's a "4v1 gank". When I play a mage that uses a mage weapon I dont complain that they disarm, I knew the trade off would be I could be disarmed and hit more often to play a template that's not a wrestle scribe mage.

    Also if you're putting all those skills at 120 on your character then you are even worse than I realized(I knew you were bad but WOW). You're just using those as numbers that you would never have in pvp. a template like that would not have 300 combat points, and in pvp no one is playing with less, with the exception of a thrower who can get away with massive damage from regular hits.

    Again to address your concern about my dexer, I COULD have wrestling but I for my template I'm passing on it. I know what my options are to deal with things such as disarm, even though I don't like being disarmed it's the choices that I make. QQ

    Show me how you would set up a full stealth ninja mage without a mage wep. Please make sure you address this so we can see how easily this would be done without a mage wep.

    Again it's the same thing as UBW. It's not giving you an extra 120 skill points, when you open your skills and click show real, You will see 720. So unless you can produce a screenshot with show real going and it says 840 it is not giving anyone 120 skill points. Same thing that happens with UBW. Just because I have fencing and I'm using swords and mace fighting also, it doesn't mean that I suddenly have 960 skill points.
     
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  33. Lythos-

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    I play warriors and mage wep mages so i'm not partial to either class but i do have to say disarm should have a 30sec timer at least. I have yet to see a disarmed mage provide any sort of offense disarmed especially in this era where everyone has max swing.

    Whats OP are these gargs hitting 18+ base damage plus hit spell every 1.25sec while remaining to be the biggest eyesore in the history of Ultima.
     
  34. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    I'm not saying disarm isn't annoying. It is. It isn't a game changer though. Anyone can survive for 5 seconds vs 1 to 2 players unaided(no healers).

    The answer to less disarms is not nerfing disarm, it is giving more options to dexxers. I have been pvp'ing for some time now. There are 6 specials I believe are decent enough to use. They are: disarm, bleed, ai, nerve, poison and mortal. Crushing blow got nerfed into oblivion unfortunately.

    As a dexxer, you can really only manage 3, maybe 4 weapons. Maybe there are people out there that can do more, they are exceptions.

    Believe me, unless it's a gank, I much rather do 25-35 damage vs. have someone run like a chicken with their head cut off.

    Actually 8 specials: dismount is huge and running shot is viable to finish someone.
     
    #34 Capt.E, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2012
  35. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Really? No one cared about the staff because it wasn't nearly as powerful as the current ONE handed -mage wep, hit 50% lighting, SC no neg 15 DCI ****e that everyone currently has. Don't go twisting the argument with stuff that has been placed in the box of last decades artifacts. That is like saying that everyone enjoyed the old WoD AI archers because it was a level field.

    Don't overlook the crutch that the DCI, hit spell and chugging give, ignoring this stuff and not admiting that they are balance issues only dilutes your argument.
     
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  36. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    "Show me how you would set up a full stealth ninja mage without a mage wep. Please make sure you address this so we can see how easily this would be done without a mage wep"

    You are off the charts. :) Your solution to my OP that warriors are completely defenseless and screwed by chain Disarm was that they should all cram Wrestling onto their templates which would leave them with 0 room for anything but the 5 base skills they HAVE to have to even try to play their template well and now you are complaining that without your ridiculously overpowered sc mage wep you may not be able to play a what? "full stealth ninja mage"

    You just dont realize how clueless and self serving you sound when you contradict yourself like this do you bud?

    You can abuse a sc mage wep to play a fully offensive and defensive mage with ninja and stealth but all the warriors have to take tradeoffs by dropping resist or lowering damage based skills just so they can maybe add enough of a skill to get the precious mana reduction? Wow.

    Ohh and what was your earlier defense of sc mage weps? - "Disarm and mage weps don't need to be kicked out of the game, they are the ying and yang to each other. You have a problem with one, the other is the solution."

    What in the world were you trying to say? Just because you cannot seem to operate any template without a sc mage wep does not in any way mean they work together or apart.

    Have you not read 90% of all the replies here bud? Just about the entire pvp world agrees that disarm needs to be nerfed a bit but you keep chugging on with nonsense because you obviously need sc mage weps and have no problem just making up 100% bs to try to defend your personal issues. No wonder the devs have such a hard time trying to balance pvp :(
    Picus pegged you perfectly btw long before me.

    Lastly, I am confused why you keep referencing my characters ingame when we dont even know each other ingame that I know of. I have not pvped with more then a max of 2 other people in almost a year and I dont pvp on a char named Goldberg so where are you coming from?

    Do you even know what shard I have played for the last 6 years or what any of my chars names are? I doubt it lol.
     
  37. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    "Again it's the same thing as UBW. It's not giving you an extra 120 skill points, when you open your skills and click show real, You will see 720. So unless you can produce a screenshot with show real going and it says 840 it is not giving anyone 120 skill points. Same thing that happens with UBW. Just because I have fencing and I'm using swords and mace fighting also, it doesn't mean that I suddenly have 960 skill points."

    Really? This is speaking the truth?

    You cant comprehend the FACT that the sc mage wep gives you the extra defensive effect as having 120 in a weapon skill?

    You dont understand that this ADDED defensive skill is not just replacing a skill you already have which is what UBW only does? How are they the same now bud? *shakes head*

    You cant do the math between those two and come up with what everyone else not biased already has? That not only do sc mage weps give you an extra 120 skill, they also give you huge amounts of dci as an insane bonus with 0 tradeoffs.
     
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  38. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    According to the OP and another one or two- a disarmed mage is so powerful even disarmed. I argued that a disarmed mage is like a disarmed warrior, they still have their defense(not as good as a warrior) and its much less effective since they would be getting hit a vast majority of the time.

    The devs said they are looking into re doing weapons for the fact that glaves for example can almost hit for as much as an armor ignore on a regular swing.
     
  39. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Well first of all if its a -15 mage wep it doesn't have hit spell, so please get your story straight.
    Oh so its okay if a mage can't chug and a dexer can with his UBW?

    Thats a horrible analogy. I was talkingi about mage weps now and then, you are talking about WoD AI for what reason?
    I'm talking about things that have been in the game since the beginning since day one and are still in game.

    Your argument would make sense if I was talking about deathstrikes when they did 70 damage no matter what, or concussions that hit for the same and I was talking about bringing them back. As of right now throwing that in makes no sense what so ever, you need to stay on track with what I'm saying and it needs to flow. I'm talking about items that were and still in game, not a spell plus an uncapped armor ignore that could one hit kill almost everyone.

    You act as if UBWs can't have DCI on them. Its not like mage weapons are the only ones in game with dci, if they were I'd agree they had an advantage, however this isn't the case. Again everything a mage wep allows a mage to do, a dexer can do and usually even better. For example you want to talk about hit spell on a mage wep? Okay yes a mage with his low dex and therefore slow swing has a chance to hit slowly and maybe a hit spell can go off. Dexers on the other hand all ranged get double hit spell and it can go off in 1.25 seconds, again you don't see complaining that it's not fair. Also with both their ranged double hit spell weapons(an extra hit spell) they also have the ability to pot. So acting as though a mage can pot and have dci on a wep is unfair is funny. It's okay for a dexer to but when a mage has the exact same things offered it's so unfair according to you.
     
  40. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    A mage still has the ablity to cast on the run while a dexxer has ****e. Me thinks your attempting to blow smoke up the forum's backside.

    Didn't see the reply. I didn't mention -15 weapons. UBWS is not the same as a mage weapon as it does not act the same given that it does not replace any skill unlike a mage wep which has totally replaced the need for a mage to use a weapon skill at all.

    I'll reply to the rest of your speech when I get a chance but without spending to much time I shall default to my smoke up the backside refrence all the same.
     
    #40 Picus at the office, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  41. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Okay I see you ignored setting up a full stealth ninja mage like I asked after claiming you need a mage weapon for that template, as well as others. So thank you for helping me with my argument when you skip points like that, it only makes your side not hold water :]

    So a warrior is defenseless without his weapon and a mage isn't? If that were the case every mage would run around with out a mage weapon, because hey according to you they are still powerful, even without it! You keep wording it wrong also. I said you don't have to have wrestle, I said you could and it would solve your problem of being oh so vulnerable when you're disarmed(which is why you claim to be dying, not the fact its 4v1 in your made up situation).

    No good pvper is playing with 120 everything on their warrior, they are maintaining 300 combat points for their specials. I like how you still avoided how you would make that template work without a mage wep, just goes to show you can't do it and it would pigeon hole mages in reducing what they can play.

    I haven't contradicted myself once, I'm still staying with the same argument I've made since the beginning and giving you examples how mages need them and how dexers have a counter part to them. I've also provided you with a solution to being disarmed as an option, not a requirement for a template.

    What I was saying earlier that you didn't understand because you're less intelligent that I realized, is that disarm is a solution to mage weps if you don't like them. If you hate that someones using it and you want to teach them a lesson go spam disarm maybe they will jump on a character without a mage wep because you disarmed so much. My point is that mage weps have a downside and if you hate them that much, abuse their weakness.

    No people don't like disarm because they think its annoying, which isn't a reason to nerf it. See theres a difference between something being annoying and something needed an adjustment. Disarm is not like deathstrike when it use to hit for 70 even standing still. It's not like WoD or uncapped AI's. It's not like nerve strikes that couldn't break while you get hit with a hyiru. It's not a poison strike that you cast insanely fast and do lots of damage. It's not concussions that could hit for 70+ damage. Do you see the difference, I listed things that NEEDED to be changed, vs one that people just don't like because it interferes with their fighting style :[

    Lastly anyone that knows you knows you only play in zergs, and where did I say you played on a character named goldberg?

    The devs haven't done anything because they are capable of thinking on their own and so far both disarm and mage weps that they added over a decade ago are still the same. I'm sorry you don't like that I'm pointing that out and I addressed everything you said while you continue to skip over things like templates needing them and you're unable to rebuttal it. Although again I do appreciate it, because ignoring something over and over like that is just as good as arguing for it.
     
  42. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    You can't comprehend that you need a skill for it to be an equivalent, Just like UBW. You need magery for it to act like wrestling, this is similar to how you need a fighting skill for it to act like another with UBW. I realize this is difficult to follow. Is 15dci an insane amount? I hope you don't discover fey leggings, your head might explode. The trade off is that unlike wrestle or anat/eval it can be disarmed and all your bonuses no longer exist. That's what a trade off means. Or do you have a mage weapon that can't be disarmed that has 45 dci on it? you keep talking about INSANE dci.
     
  43. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    -Mage weapons are used because necro-mages wouldn't exist without them. Neither would mystic mages for that matter. Every Mage would be running this template

    120 weapon skill
    120 Mage
    120 eval
    80-100 med
    80-100 nox
    120 resist
    40-80 ninja

    There aren't many other options for a Mage to go if they are forced into a weapon skill. I personally prefer to see a variety of templates out there. Rather than 1 template over and over again.
     
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  44. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    How can a mage cast ON THE RUN when they have to STOP TO CAST ? I think you misread something.

    They are the same you use one skill to get the equivalent of another, just like UBW with fighting skills. Also mages use to have weapon skills, until it was changed which was one of the two big pvp change patches that crippled templates and cut out what people could play.
     
  45. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm still not going to touch the Mage Weapon discussion, but I am a little baffled that you seem to be ignoring the fact that one move can cripple a players ability to play their character. Just because you don't spam it does not mean others do the same. Now take a moment and seriously think; What would happen if warriors had a move that could stop spell casting for 5 seconds and it was repeatable?

    I just don't know how else to make the point to you. I can tell by how you write you are an intelligent person and I respect your opinion, but this is one of the worst examples of gameplay to attract new players in any game I can think of. "Come try UO, where if you are a warrior we have a move that can make you want to log out." I really dont want the move changed drastically it just should in no way be able to be repeated back to back.
     
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  46. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    What new players? I've been here since 97 and for years and years have only seen a decline.

    There are all kinds of things that hinder mages more than dexers. For example hit spell weapons. You hit a mage and fireball goes off it disrupts his first spell and whatever he's trying to cast right after. Pair that with disarm(for those pesky mage weapons) and bleed, that mage can't go offense. Bleed for example you can't get anything off between that over 4th circle. That would be like if I bled a dexer he couldn't do anything over a double strike or some other weak attack. As it is there are templates that seem to be set up as "mage killers" that just involve lots of little damage[or big now in the case of glaves/cyclones] with the added bonus of hit spells with a delay that really only cripple mages. Hit fireball ect could be good for killing a chiv dexer, but chiv dexers are pretty worthless in pvp.

    If you want to talk about some preventative casting things though, even in protection there is an archery special that will disrupt, so if you time it right a mage takes for ever to cast and you land your special, they won't have the cursor up for about 5 seconds[waiting till the cast is almost up hitting the special, then they have to recast].

    I also don't think people realize they would probably complain even more if someone were to go in protection and they couldn't be disarmed since they already were once[so they'd be on the new immune timer]. A lot of times if a mage goes in prot but you disarm you have a chance to kill them like that. I think people would be angry at the monster that they created with a change like that if you disarmed them then they go in prot and have free reign and you just flat out could not disarm them again. I only see that as further increasing people[namely dexers in this case] just running away in pvp which is already an epidemic.

    To be honest a disarm change like this would only benefit good pvpers and put those ones that need help on the ropes even more. My biggest problem is that people are listing it like its the examples that I had before that do 70+ damage. I think people should acknowledge its not like that and it's just they don't like that it delays a fight. People are acting as though a warrior disarmed can't heal, pot, use consumables. The picture people are trying to paint is like if the guy is disarmed he mine as well be connection lost, which is very dramatic.
     
  47. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    You wonder why we have seen a decline? Its because new games come out and UO has a track record of letting abusive mechanics slide for too long, and honestly its depressing because this game still has all the potential in the world to be the best game out there. The one we all fell in love with and either still love or long to love again.

    I also agree with you that there are other issues that plague mages that can be addressed, but I'm going to continue focusing on Disarm, because thats what the OP intended with this thread, and it is one problem I believe we can easily tackle. As a warrior your offense and defense are tied to your weapon, without it you cannot play your character the way you designed it. Disarm is similar to having control taken away from your character, while not as bad as a stun mechanic (which was changed...) the fact it can be repeated is highly abusive. Once again think big picture, just because you do not spam Disarm does not mean other players do not take advantage of the griefing tactic.

    I think I have been very fair with my representations of Disarm and have stated very clearly that with a minor change it could regain its tactical function. There is nothing tactical currently when all you need to do is press one button repeatedly and take away a characters function for extended periods of time. While not as dramatic as a "connection loss", when on the receiving end of Disarm spam you might as well log out.
     
    #47 ShadowTrauma, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  48. Speaking the Truth

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    To be honest every person I've asked that was submerged in pvp they quit because things like the 300 combat point change came in, and the patch before that which cut templates that require all kinds of extra things. like when you could have a fighting skill and no tactics to do specials. Or when you could deathstrike with only ninjitsu. Parry without having to high dex. All these changes cut down what became viable in pvp. Never once did I hear anything about disarm which has been around even before aos.

    As a mage especially with a mage weapon/wep[ie poison mage w/ fencing] which a lot are using so they can play a wider array of templates, they are in the same boat, it takes away your offense and defense, it's not like this is exclusive to dexers. I am the problem is how people are set in their ways. Again its not the be all end all, like I said adding wrestling is an option. Again this isn't something that is exclusive to mages, although the funny part is if a mage did switch to a non mage wep to avoid disarm and everyone started playing parry mages, you would have dexers cry that the dex should be upped to 150 to use parry. [this went on a little tangent but tied into disarm]

    That being said though, a mage in protection should never kill a dexer because they will be able to leave screen when they know a lot of damage is coming. I only say this because when you talk about specials that can be used over and over, what about a mage being bled? If you're being bled and you go into prot you're casting with 0 fc. It's a special that can be used over and over to greif a mage just the same as a dexer getting disarmed in the sense that a mage will be forced to go in prot and more than likely not be able to kill a dexer who off screens every other spell because the spell takes much longer to cast[certain things like boulder only make it possible to get a kill since you don't have to cast if you can get them low]. There are mechanics for both that people don't like but I don't think the answer is throwing cool downs on every special, that makes them less than special imho.

    You can do things in the 5 seconds you're disarmed to make sure damage is being done though if really want. IE even with say 40 spellweaving you could cast pixies, you can use vollems, if you're a ninja you have darts/stars, you can use explode pots, congflags, super novas[ if you're in factions], thunderstorm[more for a mage but still has uses for both] if you're human or if you have the 40 weaving. A pet if you're a tamer and you're disarmed [mage or dexer].

    I think if its that bad that no one can figure out a way around it, which I can't be the only one who has found ways to take care of business, I would rather see an increase in the mana cost than make it so you can't disarm someone again. But if you do that, then other specials would likely need to take an increase because I'm sure people dont like other things spammed such as Infectious stirke for 3 mana.
     
  49. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    Please listen, I agree with you on alot of things (especially bleed), but lets try and stay on this one subject for now. I am certain I have made my points very clearly, but I can't help but feel like you try and distract from the subject at hand. I will pose 2 questions to you.

    Why should a mechanic that can be abused (which does not allow a player to use their character as intended) be allowed to continue to exist unchanged?
    and
    How is that good for the game?
     
  50. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Not sure how this derailed into a complete sc mage wep discussion but as I had a part in it I am also to blame I guess.

    I will say that my original point & first 2 sentences in my OP still holds true and is all I was really trying to point out - "Disarm for sure needs to be revamped. It has never been anything other then a crutch for unskilled pvpers.
    Nothing else in the game negates an entire template so easily and so quickly. It can be done by a huge variety of other templates and can be chained"

    I dont think anyone can honestly disagree with this and i KNOW that nobody has made a point to disprove it in this thread.

    I think that even Speaking The Truth would agree that while the Mage is also at a huge disadvantage with his sc mage disarmed, the warrior is still at much more of a disadvantage and almost totally helpless. Sure, there are always work-arounds and bandaids for this but I dont think anyone should have to change an entire template and sacrifice valauable skill points needed against an entire class to defend against something so one sided and easily chainable.
    It really has come to the point now in pvp that people are not even logging on a variety of different warriors because disarm is so potent and senseless at the same time.
    All night long I get disarmed by other warriors even before they take 1 damage point. Seriously? It just creates an anti fight environment because you start just leaving the screen when you know your opponent has no chance to kill you yet just keeps chaining Disarm. On the flip side though once you get disarmed by a gank squad it is almost instant death. I kill mages in the field and all of a sudden they are ranting in chat that they want to meet in the arena and when i show up they are now on their alternate mage who has disarm. Really? That right there is an indication of how overpowered the move is.
     
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