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Please tell me if I am wrong. What is our Goal here?

Discussion in 'UO Vice vs Virtue' started by Robin_of_Moxy, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Wasn't the point of the VvV system to bring new life to PvP in UO?

    If I am right about that then shouldn't it stand true that we need to get people involved that wouldn't have normally gone to Fel for PvP? Or PvP'd at all?

    If you want to get new people to play VvV that normally would have never have played the game you need to have the rewards to entice them. When this first started I was seeing alot of people trying to play at all hours. Some were new to PvP completely! What had happened with the occupy points was people were willing to risk UO death because the rewards were good enough to entice them. With the recent changes that is all gone now. I understand that you will be adding points to the other activities to bring the silver points back up. However, if those fixes do not allow about the same points in an uncontested city then where is the incentive for a (New to PvP) to play? I thought you had it right with the Occupy points on an uncontested match at 400. It was enough (Reward) to get new blood involved in PvP.

    With the new adjustments I can only hope that the Dev's will consider this as their biggest goal. And that is to get new players involved that wouldn't have normally ever played in Fel. Only way to do that is to give them rewards more worthy than hunting in Tram. If you don't make this your goal it will simply be the same players you always had playing. You have a chance to really do something great for the player base. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make this your number one goal for VvV!
     
    #1 Robin_of_Moxy, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  2. Violet O'Connor

    Violet O'Connor Visitor

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    Hail VvV'ers!

    I can honestly say I loved the way that VvV started out, I got two banners while training my stealing up and would have loved to have gotten more. I even took one of my characters out of the guild that all of my characters are in to switch to a VvV guild. I must admit that I even stocked up my characters insurance monies to cover the deaths I knew I would and was willing to experience!

    With only getting so few points now, it has killed the participation of a lot of my friends who were nervous about going to Felucca in the first place. This makes it less likely that I would continue to go to Felucca, and in fact one of my friends told me that he didn't want to continue even training the PvP char he was working on. I have heard stories about items and events that have been "Nerfed" and now feel as though I know what was meant when desire to continue with something lags because of something that had been changed so drastically.

    Please bring back the original occupy/alter claiming/sigil stealing point system it still took a lot of time to get the banners with the old system, but the time now is crazy ridiculous, especially for one who can't be home all day just playing over and over.

    Thank you very much for your time.

    Violet O'Connor
     
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  3. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I agree with this about 80%..yes it did bring new folks to fel, yes it did entice a lot of people with rewards..however the rewards have been in game since factions. Deco isn't going to keep everyone playing. There has to be a "fun factor" running an alt account with a detect tracking character while the other sits idle waiting isn't it. Occupy silver was too high. They did the right thing you should have to participate to get that silver bonus, wether it's claiming an alter stealing a sigil or getting a kill or dying to another VvV participant. Not just standing there. Most shards have far too few players to keep the fights going, I personally don't like the massive amounts of people on atlantic because I prefer to play solo most night, not your problem..it's mine I agree. The shard I play on is fine but is usually filled with 1-2 players that fight but mostly Stealthers so what do you do in this case? Use human tracking and conflags until they just stealth around and waste the timer till your bored out of your mind. Possibly! But I usually just stand around and collect alters because I know I won't get a fight. There HAS to be incentive for everyone to keep playing not just me or that stealther. Everyone has to find it fun, and currently it's not fun for everyone, just that stealther until he's got all the rewards he wants and comes here and asks for more items to be added..

    With all that said the im enjoying 90% of the mechanics within the VvV system. It's refreshing new and somewhat exciting. Let's keep tweaking it and NOT nerfing everything and throwing our hands up saying well we tried.. until we can find that happy medium where everyone enjoys it and has fun


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  4. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Key here is to draw more people to Fel and have them be active. For this to happen the rewards MUST out do the rewards you can earn from hunting in Tram or any non PVP area. Otherwise we will see little to no new blood. As far as the stealthers go on Pac some of the pvp guilds have gotten quite good at hunting and killing thieves. They have adjusted their game to fit the ruleset. Makes for a really fun game of cat and mouse. I pefer the rush of the direct pvp but, when completely out numbered it is nice to still be able to play and be effective in the game with my stealthing thief.
     
    #4 Robin_of_Moxy, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
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  5. Barok

    Barok Grand Inquisitor
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    1) join VvV
    2) play capture the flag
    3) ...
    4) Win!
     
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  6. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    The rewards need to "better" but not super OP..now if there was a special dye only obtainable they VvV non trade able so you HAVE to participate to get it..that's a goal. There is so many ways and little things they can add to make it more fun for others they don't exactly want to PvP, but still want the rewards..there isn't room to complain about pvpers making good off trammies..but it's equal ground, and if you can't compete..either learn and get better, or surround yourself with people who can. Strength in numbers


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  7. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Rewards shouldn't be OP however they need to be good enough to entice new blood into PvP. This will make it more fun for all. Your right though about the things they can do to make it more fun. Special Dye would be great. Bottom line though is if getting the reward is a grind it doesn't matter what they are the new blood will not join and play with the PvPers. Thanks to the Dev's for admitting their misstep. The point of my post was to hopefully plant the seed of the goal I spoke of in the minds of the Devs. Thanks for getting in the discussion with me.
     
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  8. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Exactly my point. We had new blood coming into the PvP realm. Please Devs consider this in all your changes.
     
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  9. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Seems like the Devs didn't read this thread at all. The changes made clearly doesn't take getting new blood into account what so ever. Devs did you even consider that in your changes? Please respond about it.
     
    #9 Robin_of_Moxy, Oct 25, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  10. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    I think the characterization of early participants before scoring changes were implemented as "new blood" coming into PvP is only partly true. Were people who traditionally not playing in Fel getting into VvV, yes...were those people that were going to promote player to player combat encounters...unlikely. What we had was an optimal strategy that awarded avoiding combat encounters coupled with an easily gamed reward system that provided a great opportunity at rewards. Get in, stealth around, steal some sigils, get rewards, then leave. While this is great for the individual that's hiding, stealthing, and returning sigils, it does not do well to promote the very combat encounters we hoped to encourage with VvV. In the long run it only served to frustrate the combat focused participants and not do well for the long term health of VvV.

    Does the hider/stealther/thief deserve a role in VvV? Absolutely. Should that role be optimal way to win a match? No it shouldn't. Will we continue to evaluate feedback and expand on a more robust, and more importantly balanced, integration of hiding/stealthing/thieving and player-to-player combat templates? You betcha!
     
  11. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    I see your argument here. However, what you have done is completely removed stealthing from the game of VvV. I suggest the better way would be to reduce the cost of mana spikes to something as low as 150 points. Maybe even 100 points would allow the pvp combat particapants to reval the stealthers. MAke it a great game of cat and mouse. As it stands if you use a stealther you have 0 chance of winning a match. By the way thanks for responding
     
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  12. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I've disagreed with Robin on this point but maybe there is some more wiggle room and a subtle change that can increase the usefulness of a stealther.

    I agree with the changes "a hidden character no longer counts towards occupying"

    BUT - What if they still prevented others from occupying the area

    This would make it so you still have to hunt down and remove hidden occupants to progress the timer through occupation but it still prevents hidden characters from moving the bar themselves (and addresses the afk hidden character issue that existed prior to changes).

    So a hidden character that isn't involved still can't earn silver, win a match, move progression of battle, etc but people still have to hunt them down and remove them if they want to occupy the town.

    Since the changes, the thieves I encountered have lost the match without much effort on my part. I didn't have to do anything more then claiming a few altars and driving them into hiding once or twice before match was over. Prior I had to work hard (prob to hard) to drive them out or kill them if I wanted to win and now I think its swung to a little to easy.

    Having hidden characters stop progression but unable to move it themselves might be the balance that can bring back more of that cat and mouse aspect that has been missing.

    -Lore's Player
     
    #12 Lore Denin (GL), Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
  13. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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  14. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Interesting compromise! That is a mix of both worlds and might be that happy medium we are looking for. Thus allowinf the stealther to play and earn points through silgils towards a win.

    That said I still think there needs to be an adjustment to the cost of consumables and especially to mana spikes and anti-para pots. The game of cat and mouse is a fun one and is a "combat encounter".

    In addition I think any guild winning a match should receive a minimum of 400 points for the win. This makes sense for several reasons. First it is a big enough reward for players to earn the top rewards with a reasonable amount of playtime. Second it is a good enough reward to entice that new blood to Fel. Without new blood I still think the goal of reviving PvP for the game of UO will remain elusive.
     
  15. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    You mean if you have a completely steath thief with absolutely 0 combat skills?? Yes you're right you don't have a chance..and that's the way it should be.

    Running around in Kirin form detecting stealing sigils, shouldn't be and isn't combat by any means..

    There are plenty of way to steal sigils and cooperate in the system or even just be a support character..what the pure stealthers are complaining about is not be able to sneak around unnoticed and grind points unchallenged..two different beasts


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  16. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    I think you miss my main point here. That is that to revive pvp we need to bring new blood into the pvp realm. When VvV started I was seeing new players get involved. From the thief role some of those will develop into a pvp role. I guess it is important to look at the big picture here. In my eyes the most important theme in almost all my posts is reviving pvp and bringing in new blood. Here is what I have found since the changes. The new players I tried to get involved have lost interest. They enjoyed the cat and mouse game they played but, now there is no reason for them to play. I was hoping to get them to join in the pvp no as it stands that is hopeless for the most part. When I am playing now I do not see any new blood playing at all. Just the same hardcore pvpers we have always had on the shard. This game system has a real chance to revive the pvp in UO and is a great concept. For that to happen we must have the goal of expanding the player base no matter what it takes. Thanks for your response on this discussion by the way.
     
  17. Violet O'Connor

    Violet O'Connor Visitor

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    Ok, this has all gotten above my head with all the talk about faction comparisons, mana spikes, costs, etc...

    I understand the not getting occupy points for being invisible and just standing around, but since you are automatically revealed when you steal the Sigil, with the location points of the Sigil being static, it would be simple for the pvp'ers to monitor those points and with the tracking that seems to be prevalent, they could easily go for the attack.

    Since it is obvious that someone is standing on an Alter being claimed by the fireworks going off all around the Alter (with a large arrow pointing they are hiding 'here') it screams use detect hidden, or reveal spell or whatever on a 9 by 9 block. That means that there is just as much of a chance of getting killed while hidden as showing.

    Like I said to start, a lot of this has gotten way over my head with the specifics of the game techno speak. It just seems off to me that you get no points at all for being hidden while still trying to obtain points.

    Violet

    PS: Is VvV a permanent add-on to the game or just seasonal, like the dungeon doom stuff?
     
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  18. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    That's fine, I understand that..but those players have little to no interest at PvPing..they are claiming as many point as possible to sell Royal Forged Pardons and collect deco. Once that runs stale, there won't be any reason for them to farm it regardless. By lessening the point accrued, it weeds out the power gamers, looking for the sole purpose to farm. If they made it impossible to stealth around with the sigil at the same point levels, they would still not be involved off the basis that they cannot safely dark silver to make gold. It's quite simple actually. To all the thieves that are participating to play, will just simply adapt, not quit trying like the silver farmers, which is about 90% of the current stealthers participating.

    I do agree there needs to be a place for them, I almost would say let them stealth with the sigils, but if your in stealth mode at all while holding the sigil the points you receive are next to none..it's the same reason they lessened the reward you get in doom,blackthorns castle in stealth. It becomes a farming game, and hurts the legit players 10 fold and then they quit, and once the farmers get bored..they quit and the systems die.


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  19. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Well your right about one thing there will be power gamers that once they have what they want they will likely disapear. However, it is a numbers game. We will have to weed out the ones that disappear to get the ones who will get addicted to the game of pvp. In order to get the new blood in the first place the rewards must be better than what you might get hunting in tram I think. Call it a necessary evil but, without new blood we have no new pvpers to revive it. Granted we may only get a small % that stay but, out of 100 we get 10 new pvpers to me that is worth it. After all the rewards are just pixels and cost the Dev's nothing.

    That said someone earlier today suggested a great idea and a good compromise trying to strike a happy medium between the rules. Allowing the stealther to have a role but, keeping them from form being able to gain occupy points while hidden.

    The best way to handle the whole thing in my mind however, is to lower the price of mana spikes allowing the pvpers to reveal easier. great a great game of cat and mouse and also help to weed out the power gamers from the ones that might catch the pvp itch.
     
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  20. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    You know on Pac some of the pvp guilds have gotten really good at stoping the theives from returning sigils. They use poison fields, para fields, revenants, and AOE spells very effectively. This was before the changes. Now that stealthing has be completely removed basicly that activity has seemly been lost. I think we all understand the need to stop the player who wants to get there first and get occupy points that hide till the end of the game. However, there is an easy fix to that! It is called cheap mana spikes.

    AND BTW VvV is the replacement to Factions so it is a permanent add on to the game.
     
  21. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I also agree in a slight lowering of prices for Mana Spike (and possibly Turrets) the the cost of purchasing doesn't justify using them. Its much better then before but still to pricey to pull the trigger.

    Traps are priced well but with only one use so I am reluctant to use them as well. Traps would be great if they lasted the entire match with a 20 second timer between uses (otherwise they would be over powered). Then we would see trap removers in VvV and add another role to the thief. [Removal of a trap should yield slightly less silver then the cost of a trap (100 per trap). [ To this point in VvVI have not witnessed anyone attempting to remove traps so have no idea how much silver you get from the activity if any].

    Lore's Player
     
  22. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    On test center, you got zero points for removing a trap. You just got a free trap. Wasn't worth the skill point investment in my opinion.
     
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  23. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I think all this feedback that they have been getting is good for the system..there should be a place for ALL templates..it's just a matter of balancing them accordingly


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  24. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Good idea on the traps. They cost too much to really use at this points within the framework. I hope the devs take a look at all the pricing of each and every consumable. Not to mention the robe. Why is a plain robe priced at 5000 silver? Who is their right mind would buy one. Keep the price at 5k but, put on some wicked mods or something.

    Good post Lore!
     
  25. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    It has been a great discussion hasn't it? How about it Kyronix are you guys listening to what is being said here? Can we expect some more balancing of the game system soon?

    *keeps fingers crossed*
     
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  26. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    We're continuing to monitor feedback and making adjustments where necessary. Thanks for the ideas!
     
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  27. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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