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Please tell me if this is legal

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Deathy56, Jul 9, 2009.

  1. Deathy56

    Deathy56 Guest

    I'm in fan dancer dojo killing with my faithful pet and some guy rides up and starts killing all the monsters my pet goes to kill. I understand that no one has claim to a particular hunting ground, but if my pet is already killing a creature I think it's bad form for someone else to join in on that kill. I asked him to stop and he didn't respond. So I dragged a ronin, two succubi, and two fandancers to him. Oddly enough he stopped...after he was dead of course.
    Then he said if I do it again he will page a GM on me because what I did was illegal. So my question...is it illegal to drag monsters to another player? I dragged them to him and then recalled my pet out. If it is illegal I will stop, if not then I'll try to find an ancient wyrm to drag to him next :)

    Thanks fellow UOers
     
  2. GreywolfUK

    GreywolfUK Sage
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    It is illegal to lure spawn on players under tram ruleset, that causes the death of that player.
     
  3. What he did is legal but not nice. What you did is not legal and not nice :(
     
  4. ZidjiN

    ZidjiN Babbling Loonie
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    You seem to behave much worse than him.
     
  5. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    with the instanced Corpses today there isnt really much of a problem with "killstealing"

    You can kill them faster and still get your share of the loot...
     
  6. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Item-centered events always bring out the worst in players. Remember that and expect the worst when you go to Tokuno these days.

    1. Killing other peoples' spawn is not illegal. Players do neither own spawn areas nor monsters. Game mechanics prevent abuse. If you get loot rights, you also get the chance to receive a reward.

    2. Dragging monsters onto other people is borderline. Sometimes people just run to a place, see that it is occupied and leave again. By doing that, it can happen that monsters follow them. Other people intentionally lure monsters onto you and hide, either to harrass you or to get you killed because they think you're unattended.
    Both cases are (to my opinion) unproblematic, IF YOU'RE ATTENDED. It may annoy you that people do that, but what the hell, just kill those monsters and continue with your business.

    3. Being unattended is illegal. Period.


    I've seen all kinds of stupid behavior, especially in the Fan Dancer Dojo: People being afk 24/7. People being afk and hidden, letting their pet kill the spawn. People policing the area and dragging spawn onto folks who think they're unattended. People harrassing each other because they claim the spot is "theirs". People paging on each other for all those reasons. I've been accused many times myself of macroing and being afk. People tried to kill me several times by dragging Succubi and Fan Dancers onto me (and failed, because I was NOT afk). People harrassing me because their afk macroer guild buddy died by a Succubus while I was in the area. People paged me for harrassment while they constantly dragged spawn onto me trying to scare me off. However, not one single time did a GM talk to me.

    I completely ignore those dorks, even if they come with 5 guild buddies and cast 10 EVs into the room where I'm hunting, just to annoy me. It just makes me laugh. Especially since it always is the same guild behaving like imbeciles.

    Take it with humor, stay friendly, and if you can't, hunt someplace else. It's just stupid items anway.
     
  7. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Technically, it isn't legal to drag spawn on other people.

    However, I don't know of anyone who has done it who has been banned for it... or even warned.
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Luring (what you have done) is a page-able offense.

    Yes, he might have been rude, but in his defense, consider that he gave you a warning instead of paging a gm immediately.

    Since you are not doing the afk tamer thing, you should be able to compete with him just fine. Also, note that having multiple players attack the same mob is actually beneficial to ToT farming. You both get points (you get only slightly less points if you are not the top damager), and kill the mob faster. Allowing you to actually farm more in less time.

    This has been tested/ observed by several people and actually conforms with what we know about the doom artifact system.
     
  9. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    I disagree. Even if luring is illegal in Tram, that's what the guy deserved. The laws of Trammel aren't more "fair" or whatever, they protect idiots too. You want to play tough and killsteal? Accept to be lured at.
    If you want to share a spawn, you have a chat system.
     
  10. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Er, what's being stolen, exactly?
     
  11. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Luring is against the rules, however what the other person did may not be acceptable either, there are degrees.
    As an example, back when I was a newbie training in Despise I came across a bard. Every creature I attacked, he provoked, not just in one particular spot, he followed me around the whole level of the dungeon, in this case, when I'd tried to move somewhere else but he'd followed me, that classes as harassment.
    I didn't know that at the time, I just gave up and left the dungeon feeling miserable and annoyed.
     
  12. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    They stole you argument. You're not supposed to let people reply to a rhetorical question, you should just continue to explain your point of view.
     
  13. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    1. what YOU did was harrasment,so hopfully sometime you get a 36h weekend in the jail :)

    2.NOBODY owns a spawn location or monster ! (ludicrous)

    3.EXAMPLE:

    let say there are 50 good spawn areas in tokuno for hunting tot´s,
    if all spots are camped ,should ALL other player logout,because there is no free space to play ???????
    what do YOU expect in an MMO ???????
    GO and play the game,if you are nerved if you see other player in YOUR game,then it is maybe the wrong game for you

    IT IS EVENT , adapt or leave !

    (let see if you can kill a shadowlord ALONE,because IT IS YOUR spawn,LOL)
     
  14. Gladius

    Gladius Guest

    Well those who deliberately lures to stake a claim on a particular spawn site causing the death of a player is a plain scum act not to say the least.

    It is just too bad that there is no way to make people who do this pay on game. I doubt if reporting such an incident will merit a GM's attention.We have received incident stories of a certain player named Night Raven operating in the Yomatsu Mines of Balhae to do such nefarious things.

    It should be that things would be automatically detected like the prevention of casting a spell in town to avoid such mischief.

    Now for the bully boys who just crash in I guess the rules of the jungle applies he who has better toys wins eh?

    -G-
     
  15. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Der_Rock, you didn't read the message at all. You understood what you wanted to understand. You're very aggressive and totally out of the topic. The OP never claimed he owns the spawn, on the contrary he said he knows he doesn't own it. So all your personal attacks are very wrong.
     
  16. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    then read again :)
    i said : player don´t own spawn locations AND don´t own MONSTERS

    luring monster, only to try to kill other player is the poorest behavior
    and those players will get a 36h bann sooner or later. ;)
     
  17. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    I agree with Coppelia.

    Its not the thought that someone "owns" a spot.Its more about being considerate to other players who got there first.Peaple who jump in on spawn area`s are just trying to be an ass.Its not because there isn`t anywhere else,its simply because that person feels like being a tard,plain and simple.

    If someone walked up to my deer blind during huntin season and stood right in front of me expecting me to just sit there.....that person would be seriously mistakin.That person would prolly end up wipin off some knuckle prints by the end of the morning...... Since there would be no Succubi or Deamons around I could lure onto him I`d hafta resort to Fel rulez!
     
  18. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Exactly, when you're hitting a monster that doesn't require to team up, if someone else arrives and hit that specific monster instead of looking for another and refuses to talk, it's very rude, antisocial and he shouldn't be protected by rules that are made to protect social behavior.
    There are many ways to share a spawn, but it implies social interaction. The OP tried that. The other player refused. And there, Der_Rock, you suggest the OP goes to another game if he doesn't stand other players? That's totally the contrary! The player who doesn't want to talk nor share, that one should go to another game.

    Like Petra said, if he jumps on every monster the OP tries to kill, that's harrassment and it's forbidden. I'm not saying that gives the right for the OP to lure monster (he didn't know it wasn't allowed), but still, don't forget that the victim isn't the dead guy who believed he had the right to be a jerk on an online game.
     
  19. Thats why all events should be in fel. It would solve alot of problems. My feelings are that the strongest should get the spot. Iam way faster than a super dragon and hit a demon with 2 chain lightings and drop it. I ve chased a few people out of my fav. spot and I ve left cause and archer was beating me to every drop.
     
  20. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    The Devs have been very clear on this and from what I've seen left no room for argument.

    1. It is illegal to lure monsters to other players, period.


    2. No one owns any spawn and there are no repercussions against anyone for killing any spawn they see fit.

    So, despite all the wishes of those in this thread wanting people to "play nice", it is absolutely not required to "allow" someone to kill spawn they wish to kill without interference from you. It is not harrassment to kill spawn even if you follow someone around killing spawn. Walking from one area of a dungeon to another does not constitute attempting to leave a situation where you feel you are being harrassed. Recalling out of said dungeon and hunting elsewhere is removing yourself.

    Yes, these events bring out the worse in the vast majority of players, but such is the game we play. Find a way to deal with the frustrations within the rules or be prepared for a possible ban.
     
  21. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest


    hey dude, we talk about TOKUNO EVENT
    we don´t talk about being a xxxxxxx in general. :(

    1. during tot event the main reason to get tot´s is KILLING fast !
    2. the more player in a spot, the higher the chance of tot dropping !
    3.if people wonna talk, then i would say go brit bank for smaltalking !
    4.beleave it or not, but you get more tot´s if you hit a monster for looting rights, you DONT
    have to kill the monster with 100% killpoints

    all in all, 90% of the winers DONT know how to make tot´s,and that is also a main problem of uo, many(if not most) player are selfish and xxxx

    if someone like to participate in the tot event, then they should go and kill monster and they should not waste their time with harassment behavior. ;)
     
  22. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Personally I think people should just grow a spine. If someone wants to hunt a spawn that someone else is hunting why cant they? Because the person was there before them? What kind of argument it that? There was someone before that person too! That would mean the first person to ever hunt in the spawn has the right to kick *everyone* out!

    Instanced corpses makes this pretty even anyway if you're able to get looting rights. Or you can party up which actually gives chances of a duplicate minor artifact (one for each party member) spawn which only slightly lowers a minor artifact spawn over that of soloing the spawn.

    People need to just be courteous, and get over the fact that they're getting fewer of their oh-so-precious pixelized trinkets.
     
  23. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    For all those people fellucians or new trammelites that said no one owns a spawn. If trammelites have to abide by fellucian unwriten rules when they go there please abide by trammel unwritten rules when you head there. Arhmmm
    If a spawn point is occupied by another player or player summon or player pet please do not intrude in that spawn point unless you ask the occupent if you may share with them that spawn point or if occupent,said creatures and summons vacate the area. You see trammelites have being getting along just fine like this for years try not to impose fellucian values to trammel rule area.
    Repecusions of breaking unwritten rules are no rez help later no group activities with community minded players no respect for those who care only for themselves and more repucutions. Especially in this dwindling population where everyone knows your name. Of course those who return to there fellucian lands will not care of these but please do not look forward for any kindness in trammel lands by players who know there name.
    Oh luring is not legal in trammel only tolerated in fellucia.
     
  24. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    *Shrug* I do ....

    By a Game GM and the Guild Leader (no the Guild Leader did not ban them but put them on probation within the Guild stating in extremely clear terms that the behavior did NOT reflect the Guilds spirit, thinking or acceptable action of its members).

    ------------------------------

    To the OP ....

    There is Shard.Facet Culture and there is the ToS. It does not work in your interest to ever confuse the to. As UOKaiser has suggested, when in Trammel, it would be nice if people played by the Facet Culture. Unfortunately there is NO way to enforce the Culture as Law, it is something that falls under ... Self Restraint, Maturity, Respect for others.

    Shard.Facet Culture, if it is the Trammel Facet, then it probably extends rights to, at the very least an engaged Mob and probably to the Spawn area.

    The ToS (AKA the rules the UO Employees NEED to enforce) are very clear, no one owns a Spawn area or a mob. That both are able to be contested. This is NOT unique to UO. All MMORPG's that I am aware of have this point of view.

    The ToS is very clear about Luring/Dragging mobs onto other Characters INTENTIONALLY. That is with out doubt a clear breach of the agreement you agreed to when you play the game.

    Having said the above, it is my advice that it is NOT in your best interest to try to be some clever CON/SCAM person with a Game Master and pretend it was an accident, if your called on it by a GM unequivocally tell the truth the entire truth, that you lost you became angry and behaved badly (notice YOU DO NOT BLAME the other guy for your actions). That MAY save you from a ban, such that you only get a warning.

    GM's in most all MMORPG's get ... adequate opportunities to see every conceivable lie, con, scam etc. Not just once, not 10 times, not 100 times BUT THOUSANDS OF TIMES. Do not think for one instant that your going to pull anything over on them. Best road to a ban is to convince the GM that you think your a) Smarter than they are b) Above them.
     
  25. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    Well, I say it was an appropriate response. Seems to me (without knowing the whole story) that the person who jumped in was just mad because they got outmaneuvered. I've been threatened with getting paged on many times and have never been visited.

    Though I have paged. After reading this, I may consider some of these actions for folks who are obviously afk at fandancer dojo.
     
  26. Leaf

    Leaf Sage
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    Thats why I play Seige. If someone messes with you while you are hunting and screws up your spawn you are working on, you can kill them and or lure monsters on them. It stops all the asshat behavior because there will be a consequence for their rude behavior.
     
  27. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    no wonder you dont get it, you are a siege player :)
     
  28. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    He was in my spot - what can I say - hehe
     
  29. Lady_Calina

    Lady_Calina Lore Keeper
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    I'm not a fan of luring, but in this instance I see the karma behind it. I don't think everyone should hold hands and skip together as one big happy pixel family, but I do think that they should be decent to one another. Just barging in, not saying a word and killing everything without suggesting that you take turns or something is sort of rude.
     
  30. Saris

    Saris Guest

     
  31. Ive had people jump on stuff im killing and ive had people luring stuff to my location, and i tell ye that the lurers are a bigger pain in the rear then the people jumping on my kills :next:
     
  32. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    "kill-stealing" can be rude...but it isnt illegal and it never should be. They can kill what they want.

    Luring to kill someone in Tram on the other hand is illegal...but funny...I dont mind people who do it....unless it gets out of hand.

    But luring has been illegal for a long time.

    I got a warning 7 years ago for it in Deceit.
     
  33. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    The OP is the bad guy in this story and ought to be banned from UO or at least suspended for physical harassment.
     
  34. Saris

    Saris Guest

    no. maybey a warning but if folks are cheating, speedhacking, and botting then how could you justify anything worse that just a slap on the hand for this, yall need to lighten up, I have never ever paged on someone for lurning spawn on me, that would be jusr week.

    ever just try talking, and if a gm banned someone for this but turned a blind eye to everything else that they are yag.

    its funny story if you F with someone they should F with you back thats what you wanted if you were purposly greiving someone

    screw the rules no one cares
     
  35. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    2 words: Instanced Corpses.

    The very inclusion of that loot system makes getting worked up over someone killing what your were killing pointless and childish. The me me kind of people are the ones who tend to get worked up by it, I can care less if i have a chance at rights im taking shots.
     
  36. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I know this isn't the answer you wanted to hear.... but if you were in Fel you could have just killed him and then continued farming :p
     
  37. wow are people honestly complaining about this still? Its a game, if you dont like somthing in the game or people are rude to you then dont play its gonna eventually happen. and with this ToT event i go to the dojo and sit in the demon room with my archer its easy and i get plently of drops ive gotten probly 130 drops within the last 2-3 days down there yea it might be a lil longer between drops but its nice if ur not in a rush. And then theres atleast 6 or 7 of us down there and one point there was 11 And everyone got a drop. So everyone needs to put their big girl panties on and go kill stuff. People take this game way to seriously and its a game and is ment to be fun, with all this complaining and reporting your taking the fun outta the game. Yes players are suppose to be nice to one another but you cant expect EVERYONE to be a nice person. Just suck it up and kill eventually the other person will get bored with you or find somthing els to do. There ive had my soap box rant for the day =D
     
  38. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    Well said.
     
  39. Corpsecrank

    Corpsecrank Guest

    If a player constantly kills things your trying to tame then it falls under physical harassment as griefing. But if your just out killing stuff and someone else comes along and starts killing the same stuff it is completely legal and that is exactly why they split loot into instances a couple years ago.

    If you drag monsters directly to another player to overwhelm them and get them killed it is also physical harassment and if they page you can get suspended and eventually banned for it. If you drag a ton of monsters into an area where that player is at then stick around and simply heal while not killing those monsters it is legal and you will not get sanctioned because you could have also been killed.

    Just another one of those grey areas in UO that shouldn't exist but does.
     
  40. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    The guy was rude. No doubt about it.

    You can't actually lure in Trammel even though you can do it all day in felucca.

    It's weird he didn't just kill all that stuff. If it spawned at a champ spawn it wouldn't have lasted 60 seconds. Even Paragon Succubi bite it there, however a Paragon Succubus is a bad bad monster. The ancient is far easier than you might think. We killed tons of them in britain invasion.
     
  41. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Unfortunately it is illegal. He well deserved it so good job to the OP!
     
  42. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Personally I think it should be legal to drag spawn towards someone else. This is a game and if you cant stand the heat of the dungeon, you shouldn't be there.

    Also there is nothing stopping you from dragging spawn towards someone else.

    But in the end we are talking about "Care Bear" land so God forbid anyone makes things a bit more challenging!

    Also if the Devs would take the time to fill all the dungeons with decent monsters, let alone all the empty land, we prob wouldn't have as big a "ToT"/ spawn farming issue.
     
  43. Vertigo

    Vertigo Guest

    Somebody tired luring fan dancers to me while I was killing Succubi / Deamons on the 3rd level. I just provoked them on each other... and got a minor drop! I told him to keep doing it... more for me to kill. They promply left the area, lol.
     
  44. guum

    guum Guest

    I agree. It does seem to be the case that you are in the wrong as far as the ToS is concerned, but in my mind, the other player was being a jerk and pretty much got what was coming to him. As a tamer, don't expect much sympathy from most folks though. ;)
     
  45. Lyconis

    Lyconis Sage
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    This thread baffles me. I thought the point of playing an online game like this in a trammel rule set was to group up with other players to kill monsters! Seems pretty anti social to hunt monsters alone.

    Outside of Felucca, when someone jumps in and starts attacking spawn I'm working I tend to heal them. The only exception is when they drag too much spawn and can't handle their own and kill my mojo. Slow down on a few heals and they tend to stop dragging as much, or they end up dead.

    I especially don't get this "kill stealing mentality" at tokuno/ilshenar spawns. I tend to try to out kill folks when they start saying I'm stealing their kills. The idea of "kill stealing" seems anti-social to me, its not like your trying to control the powerscroll market outside of Felucca. When someone tells me that I am killing their steals I don't talk back to them, if they tell me they don't need help I tend to leave them alone.

    On another note I find it wildly entertaining when I see a ghost in the middle of a ton of mobs. I always run into the mess of it with an corp precasted. Its surprising how many players take the res even if they know they will be killed.
     
  46. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Next time say "omg I almost died, don't do that again!!" and see what happens. :p
     
  47. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Hello, welcome to UO. Most of the game content is solo. But if you want to group, there's a party system. Enjoy it!

    It's nice that you heal people, a lot of players do that. Now if you're not able to understand why it's rude to "help" someone to finish the mob he's killing, the antisocial... is you. We're all big enough to finish the mob we're killing, and if we don't manage, we'll ask you to help.
    Maybe it's harder for me, or slower, but let me finish my mob. If the other mobs around aren't enough to satisfy your pathological gluttony, consult, don't "help" me. And if there's any rule of loot that gives more chance to get something (here, tokuno artifacts) if a maximum of players hit the mob, explain it to me because instanced corpse split the loot according to the damage done : if you outdamaged me, the split can go from 50/50 to 0 for me.
    And even if I hit enough to get my part of the loot, enhance my chances of getting super-artifacts, doing it without a word is not social either. And of course if I'm slower, hit for less damage and you do most of the work, I'll feel useless and it won't satisfy me.

    Also you're certainly exceptionally awesome to help people to kill what they can kill by themselves, but there's no link with OP's story. We aren't there to fight together an Invasion, where it's logical if everyone helps each other to kill everything for a greater goal. Tokuno mobs will always respawn.
     
  48. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    I`m suprised at how many defend the practice of kill stealing.It would be hugely different if the person steppin on my toes talked or something. Just say hello,thats it. That sparks conversation and politeness. When sum asshat rides up and just starts killing and doesn`t say jack OR answer ya when your nice enough to say hello,that can only spark irratation and anger.

    I could care less about instanced corpses.That does little to calm the annoyance of some twit just out to be a jerk.

    I have sum favorite spots I like to hunt in Tok,like Oni/wolves etc. I recall in and see someone there guess what I do? I recall out after saying hello/goodluck in hopes that in the future that person will remember me if the situation is reversed.

    Most times it works,as someone else said with fewer peaple around its VERY easy to remember who`s done ya right or wrong. Just incase my memory is clouded I make sure I keep my black list close at hand.Anyone on that list gets no help from me,no rez,no healz,no nothing from me besides the occasional...... "HAHAHAHA YOU MORON,REMEMBER ME!? GO FIND A REZ SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU GREIFER!"

    Ahhhhh karma. :thumbsup:
     
  49. Deathy56

    Deathy56 Guest

    Hey all it's the OP,

    Thanks for the responses. Since it's illegal I'm not going to lure anymore :-( It stinks that there is nothing one can really do when someone steals a kill other than look for another place. It's like letting the jerk win. I totally agree that no one owns an area, but unless it's a boss or other difficult kill, no one should jump in on a monster without asking. Believe me if I could get ToT in Fel I so would!

    Let me ask you guys one more thing, which I know will make me seem even more of a jerk, but keep in mind it's all retaliation! The same guy as before came back the following day and said, "HA HA" as he killed creatures my pet was trying to kill. I lured two succubi on him and he died (HA HA indeed). Then I kept up energy fields at the enterance to the room with his body until his body disappeared so he would lose any minors he got (Yes I know, I'm a *******). Is what I did with the energy fields illegal?

    You folks are way more knowledgeable than I am and I really do appreciate the responses. I just hate it, in UO and RL, when people act inconsiderately and benefit from it.

    Thanks again,
    Me