1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Plus Skill Items - Please get it right

Discussion in 'UHall' started by weins201, Oct 4, 2008.

  1. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,686
    Likes Received:
    266
    I know this Sampi issue is one thing alot of player want fxed but we have to make sure it is geting fixed right for the right reasons.

    We are looking at fixing one major PvP iossue which potentially will affect ALOT of other skills.

    Nija, I have a Thief and its very nice to be able to change forms and run away when needed. I uses a 15 Nija Ring which help me get into lama/ossie form. If i am runnig away and cross a server will i revert back to human = Death.

    Taming and others come to mind, hell lets just face it any sjill could be affected. I have never gotten my miner to GM as I can use BS Gloves to cover the last 5 as well as Lady Mels axe for LU. Will recalling leave me at 95?

    Just trowing it out there.
     
  2. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    Well, you will end at 95 and it will throw all of your valorite, heartwood, frostwood and bloodwood out of your backpack, becouse you will lost rigth to own it by then.
     
  3. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Well, some players do want to see an end to skill + items altogether but we're kinda outnumbered by those who CBA training or committing real skill points to get their hybrid templates up and running.

    I hope EA do finally make real skill superior to twinked skill, or better still nuke + skill items completely. But whether that'll happen is anyone's guess. Jeremy or one of the team did suggest somewhere that all skill + items might get reviewed, but I don't know if that was a reference to changing the forms that we got now, or that more review is coming. I hope the latter.

    Wenchy
     
  4. Akalabeth

    Akalabeth Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    49
    It just scares me to death for them to make this change. I understand the need for the vampire change but I can see so many other things that are going to happen that nobody meant to happen or that just simply mess up a lot of play styles. I have never seen a time that they made a change that it was not much further reaching they meant for it to be.
     
  5. Akalabeth

    Akalabeth Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    49
    If they nuke + skill items, then I hope they nuke power scrolls also because to me the two go together. Just my two cents.
     
  6. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    If they nuke plus skill items, they nuke whole UO. Do you have one character which is not using any such item? And now count all of that peole which put so much effort/gold/money into acquiring their super duper suits which now will be worthless. Well they will be angry, much more angry than with Age of shadows...
     
  7. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope they do away with + skill items. It makes me sick to think back in the day if I wanted to ride a mare or control a dragon I had to work to get my tame to the level needed to control it. Now all someone has to do is create an advanced character and put on a ring+brace and they will have enough skill to control the toughest critters in game. Or these SC mage weaps people are useing add 20 magery to a ring (crystaline ring) and they can use a weapon at least the mods of the weapon. its complete BS. All + skill items should go except the smithy bod rewards.
     
  8. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0

    None of my characters use +skill items. And i hardly doubt the whole of UO would be as upset with the disappearance of +skill items as they were with AOS. I would settle though for + skill items not allowing you over GM skill (minus smithy) and to not exceed a players 700-720 skill cap.
     
  9. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    161
    Nothin personal Weins, but this is about the only aspect that I think is good about the change.

    Sampires sucked in PvP, they were only for PvM. They were a template that allowed people to attempt High End monsters when their guild was not on to help which I think is awesome. One of the best parts about UO is that you dont have to fight in large groups; And the Sampire made it possible to hunt bigger stuff by yourself without a tamer. So those of us who actually enjoy playing a melee char could finally compete monster wise with those running power house tamers. I think this was a pretty lame nerf overall. Thats EXACTLY why skill jewelry is in the game... To allow us to do things we dont have enough real skill to do. And to nerf that because some warriors were finally having fun soloing things tamers have been soloing for years? Come on. People who were complaining about Sampires IMHO are total crybaby's. So what if someone else can kill a monster faster then you? You can make the same template and do it yourself. When your not hunting in the same place then it shouldnt effect you at all. And when you are hunting in the same place... GREAT!!! They kill a monster faster and another one spawns sooner, better for everybody!!!

    So overall I think this change was not thought out at all. The one benefit I see is from the Original Post I quoted in this thread. Stealth ninjas are closer to griefers then any other template in the game. They should not be able to change form on the run making it nearly impossible to interrupt. If they wanna be able to sneak around and pop out when your already damaged just to dismount you when you already have 3 other people on you... then they should need to stick around for the consequences. At the very least they should have to go through the time and motions of mounting an ethy when they change forms, and weather you like it or not, thats simply the only FAIR way to implement the animal form skill. Thats the skill / aspect of the game that should have been nerfed. And dont even get me started on server line hopping. As far as im concerned consistant server line hopping is as bad of an exploit of game mechanics as anything else ever was. People who are caught exploiting serverlines should be banned as exploiters. They are exploiting an aspect of the game to give themselves an advantage in PvP. People who were running Sampires were using items in the game to allow them to do what they could not do without those items in order to play in areas that other overbalanced templates have been dominating for years.

    Anyway, thats just MHO. And before I get ripped for it know that I play both a Tamer and a Sampire. When it comes right down to it, the Sampire was harder to play, and that made it more fun. The Sampire is the template that should have been left in the game. My tamer is very useful, but there is no skill in saying "All Kill", then standing back at a safe distance and casting Greater Heal over and over.

    Let me play a character that is strong enough to fight high end monsters, and makes me take the risk for doing it!!!
     
  10. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    5,361
    Likes Received:
    19
    I agree that +skill items should not allow you to pass your skill caps, but They should not stop working at GM unless they do away with power scrolls. Which I don't ever see happening.

    For instance, right now I have a tamer who is wearing a +10 ring while he trains. he's currently at 104.x, but uses the ring so he will have a better chance at success, and thus a better chance at getting a gain. Ever animal in his stable is able to be controlled without any jewelery at all.

    + Skill jewels are great for training, and for that reason alone I think they should remain. As for the people who decide to use them as an important part of their templates, well, personally I think they're doing themselves a disservice. All my characters' abilities are based on real skill. That way I know if I'm hit by an insurance bug, or run out of gold after a death, or forget to insure anything, it will not effect my template to any major degree.

    I see no harm in having +skill items, but I'm glad they fixed it so that you cannot remain in any form without the skill in place. The Sampire template was one of my biggest gripes. If they didn't have the necessary skill (either via real skill, or equipped jewels) they should not remain in form. I for one am happy with the change.
     
  11. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    2
    The core of the game is the challenge. Making a sampire was a challenge, soloing a dreadhorn is a challenge. After the change, it will still be a challenge but a harder one. I will try to make one. I don't know if it will be a sucess but that is what the game is all about.
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thats no excuse really. They should stop at 100 and to do anything over GM you have to earn it. I PVP I have almost all of my characters scrolled up on 2 of my accounts I use the skills I can fit into my template with out using +skill items. I do just fine +skill items allow for gimp templates and people to do what someone with time into skill can do witch shouldnt happen.
     
  13. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    Do you mean that two hours which it takes to train skill from 100 to 120?
     
  14. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    0
    They cant do away wth +skill stuff. It is to intwined in the game right now. They really nerfed the plustaming with that luck jewel set but thats about it. the only problem i have with it is people that have like 50 points on each jewel to make pvp tamers. Its kinda ridiculous. I didnt see a problem with the sampire even tho i never made or played one because it didnt directly hurt anyone elses playstyle.
     
  15. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nobody should be able to solo the hardest monsters in game ever this is a MMO.
     
  16. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    5,361
    Likes Received:
    19
    I just can't agree with you on this. I can totally see your point. (At least I think I do) You're saying allowing someone to have +skill items devalues the work someone else has put into actually training the skill. Right?

    My tamer is scrolled to 110. I plan on taking him up to 110 real skill. I am using the + taming ring to allow me greater success getting there. With my jewels on I am able to tame a ridgeback in 1 try 90% of the time. Without the jewels my success rate drops to about 60%. That makes for a much longer training session.

    As for 'gimp' templates that rely on jewels, I have no problem with them. I prefer not to use them because I feel that they are a little unreliable. They did need a fix though (aka the Sampire), and now they're getting it. If you're using +skill jewels to go into vamp form, and remove them, dropping you below the required skill level for that form, you should revert to regular form. If you're marching around at 85 real taming skill and jeweled/itemed up to 120 with a greater dragon, if you remove those jewels/items that dragon should go wild and eat you.
     
  17. Except their not. You can still build sampires with the skill in necromancy and use items for chiv instead for enemy of one. Although in most cases that isn't even necessary as people rely on items to replace resist spells. For mine specifically neither is necessary as I can just move 20 points from resist (120) to necro - I don't really need 120 resist for pvm I just had it from when I used the char in fel for champ spawns.

    I've been asking around as I know quite a few people who have sampires, none of them seem to be as bothered as the people that are pro this change, I think the people that are pro this change don't get how little it will affect anything. They've put it in for the same cock-eyed view that they put the luck jewlery in - it didn't make any more templates play with luck it just meant that tamers in luck played with an extra 200, just like this change won't make people actually use the midnight bracers, won't stop people playing sampires and the book will be effectively useless. (as the book will apply only to caster based necros which would be better off mod wise with a scrappers.)
     
  18. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    5,361
    Likes Received:
    19
    I have no problem with the actual template. That's fine by be. My gripe was the fact that they could equip items/jewels to get to gm necro, go into vamp form and then remove the jewels and still get the benefit of the form. Since I first heard about the possibility I have been saying that removing the jewels/items should revert your form back to normal. I couldn't care less how powerful the template actually is. Good for those who realize it and use it. I just want that they have to keep the jewels on or have the real skill present to keep the form up.
     
  19. The point I'm making is that as it doesn't fix anything and all it does is make the ossain grimoire and midnight bracers even less useable is there any reason TO do it?

    I've always had the impression that they seem to put things in then argue why not, rather than ask wether it's worth doing in the first place. With the exception of things that are just for fun and have no real bearing on gameplay (like plants), I think that asking wether something (a change) has a puropse/aim and wether it fulfills it should be the first things to be thought about. This change continues that impression.
     
  20. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    I think that is where you will find arguments.

    IMO all of the creatures in the game Presently should be soloable but each of the bigger ones should only be soloable by specific skill sets with the right strategies.

    The lack of forced-grouping in UO has kept a lot of people here over games like EQ - where it is not only necessary to group, but to be in one of the top raiding guilds on your server to face the bigger encounters.

    But I also believe that there should be a small few encounters in the game that Do require group effort. Not by changing existing content - which only equates to a nerf on something we already have, but by addition of future encounters.

    SA is to be a dungeon larger than anything we've seen, so blocking access to specific areas and requiring groups to key-in as we do now with peerless, and face things more powerful than we've ever had would fit perfectly.

    Not just the same old stuff with more health higher skills and a new skin, but new encounter concepts, where the right skills are a requirement and you can't just go in zerg-style and overwhelm everything.

    A small example..
    The Archlich. [Minimum 5 characters to enter]
    Drains 10 health from everyone in the room every 15 seconds.
    Immune to all weapons.
    Takes 25% damage from Healing spells, 50% damage from healing by bandages, and 100% from unarmed hits - BUT can only be damaged by a single spell/bandage after an unarmed hit, then becomes immune to both until it is hit unarmed again. (so both must be used)

    Can repulse one character every 20 seconds - sending them across the room, doing 50 physical damage, and slowing their movement/casting for 15 seconds.
    Any character Killed by it, causes it to gain 100% of their maximum health instantly, and increases the room-wide health drain by 1 point.

    An encounter like this would be competely different from anything we have. Specifically those with healing skills/spells would be most valuable in the fight, and unlike everything we've ever had in the game, throwing numbers of characters at it would actually make the fight Harder.

    Best of all, everyone would have to work As A Team to get it done, since every groupmate you let die means you die faster and the lich regenerates faster. ;)

    Other lordly encounters would be focused on other skills and aspects of play. It wouldn't be out of the question to make Crafting skills the basis of winning in some of them.

    That is more of the sort of fight that I could see requiring numbers. Peerless as they are - well they just aren't that big. Making them unsoloable by adding more health and making them hit harder doesn't make the game more fun in any way, it just makes that particular monster harder to kill.. which done by itself is rather boring.
     
  21. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2003
    Messages:
    5,361
    Likes Received:
    19
    How would it make those items less useable?

    This change is to make it so you can't slap on a pair of midnight bracers (+20), a +15 ring, a +15 bracelet, and pick up a Ossian Grimoire (+10), cast Vamp form, remove the items and keep that form with only 40-60 real necro skill. (I'm not sure if this change will have any effect on +skill items as well, but I would think they should work the same as jewels) This change will make it so that if you want the benefits of that form, you're going to have to keep your jewels on. No more getting the benefits of the form (by using the jewels to cast it & then removing them) and also being able to equip new jewels to enhance something else.

    Am I missing something? You will still stay in form with the jewels on if you don't have the real skill. This change will just require people to decide what is more important. Real skill to keep that vamp form up, or waste your jewelry slots to keep it up.

    So, how would it make the bracers and grimoire less useable?
     
  22. "So, how would it make the bracers and grimoire less useable?"

    Sorry, I thought I'd already explained about the book and the arms were obvious. (probably just is to me b/c I've tried building them into a suit before)

    The arms are 23/3/4/2/4, 10 sdi, +20 necro. Those resists are terrible, the sdi is no benefit to dexxers so they basically have no mods. Although with all the val runic armor around now you can probbaly make up for the resists at least. To use those arms for sdi on a sdi necro mage you also have to have fairly terrible resists. (unless I suppose you're using regs or not going all out on sdi - which again defeats the purpose of using them)

    The book will be no use for a sampire unless their trying to kill something with wrestling, it's properties for a caster based necro or necro mage are out done by scrappers. The only exception being karma loss and if you're going for that you can just lock it and once you hit bottom you stay there.

    Edit:
    In case it's still not obvious, 3 fire resist on arms on a char that has -25 fire resist from being in vamp form - one of the "penalties" - one of the things that they SHOULD be fixing.
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    I think there are several ways forward for toning down skill + items:

    1) Change skill + properties for other useful ones. I don't think that would work for general braces and rings, but is one way to keep certain arties etc still useful.

    2) Outright delete said properties or change some skills eg taming ones so they can't be twinked.

    3) Put a cap on how much skill + a character can use. So say +15 total, then no matter how much you put on, you're only getting a +15 boost from it. There would need to be a way of determining which property you boosted eg if a ring had +10 taming and +15 lore, you'd possibly need an interface which allowed you to pick a property from the equiped items, or allow UO to pick the highest property per item. Perhaps the soulstone interface could be copied and used as a basis for the skill cap one.

    4) Lower the max skill + cap on items. So instead of +15 on a ring, it might be +8. I'm not in favour of that as some skills (taming for starters) appear on several items, so you can still boost a fair bit, even if it requires more item slots.

    But the sky most certainly won't fall because players need to use real skill for things. Characters will simply need to train and adapt their templates. This often happens through the normal evolution of UO as new skills arrive or items change what we can do, so adapting, to me, isn't a problem. And yes, if you want control of the most powerful pets in game, you should jolly well have to train the skill. But of course, we do live in the age of UO where work, effort and challenge rub many players right up the wrong way ;)

    Wenchy
     
  24. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,532
    Likes Received:
    1,917
    I have really mixed feelings on the use of +skill jewelry and items. In general, it's been something I have tried to avoid. I have a couple of characters that use a +magery spell book to boost their magery. However, if the spellbook skill mods went away, I'd adjust. I have some faction thieves that use the shadow dancer legs or stealing jewelry, but a couple of them don't. I could adjust their templates to beef up the stealing or stealthing if I had to.

    I have one legendary tamer now and two more that should get there by year-end. I've also got seven tamers in the 100-110 range for their real taming skill and nine that are between 90 and 100. (A couple more are in the 50-90 range still.) Just in the last three weeks or so, I've put in a ton of time raising a new tamer on Lake Austin from 50 to 92 real taming skill. I know what it's like to go out and tame, tame, tame and watch those gains ever so slowly add up. Obviously, all those tamers have decent pets and didn't get them or bond them without the use of taming jewelry and/or the talisman.

    I would probably adjust if the taming jewelry and talisman went out the window, assuming the game still remains somewhat populated. But in the meantime I'd be pushing for the following:

    • Make it a little bit easier to gain taming skill.
    • Create additional spawns of harder stuff to tame to accommodate the additional tamers that would be out there taming. (For example, some spots with just drakes and dragons and no greater-dragons. I rarely see anyone in Destard anymore taming drakes and dragons. I guess it's just become too difficult to try to pull them off to the side to tame.)
    • Make donating pets to the zoo a much more rewarding experience (e.g., increased points for donating pets, more types of pets you can donate, and some additional reward selections).
    • Add more useful low-end tameables. For example, another tank-type character that doesn't self-heal but doesn't require as much taming skill as greater hiryus, cu sidhe, and greater dragons.
    • Add some new spawn for tamers (and others) to fight with the lower-end pets they'd be using.
    Unfortunately, I suspect that if the use of taming jewelry ever comes to an end, people will quit in droves. For many, what will push them out of the game won't necessarily be the additional training they have to do. It will be the loss of pets that they spent a lot of time finding and training. Even if there is some way to keep those pets stabled until your skill increases, for many that would just not be possible because they would have end up having to acquire lower-end pets and possibly packs of lower-end pets in order to be able to continue to hunt as a tamer. I know I wouldn't be terribly thrilled for my newer tamers to have to decide between using their now more limited stable slots to save some well-trained high-end pets or to hold some bakes or frenzied ostards.

    I really don't know. I agree with you on so many points, Wenchkin, but I really don't see how EA will ever eliminate the use of skill-bumping articles without driving away the majority of the players.
     
  25. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hopefully EA will take the time to ensure that crossing a server-line while wearing +skill jewelry won't cause you to leave the form.
     
  26. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Tina, I do think you're right in that some tamers will quit if they have to train. I think it's unfortuate if some go that way, but at the end of the day, they've had years with these items in which they *could* have just collected GGS gains etc and reached whatever levels they sought. And alacricity scrolls are still available through the spring cleaning, so that's another option.

    Personally, I think if you've reaped the benefits without training, you were lucky to have had the opportunity. And you've seen the perks of the profession. You either want it or you don't IMO. I've seen a few of my chars pop in and out of usefulness, but never quit because of it. I played them less till I got over it, but the lure always got me back. If players enjoy their tamers that much they'll knuckle down and do the training. If not, I think said players knew they were in a hard to train profession, had no intention of training and milked the template while they could. I won't miss those if they move on, especially those who've given tamers nothing but a lousy reputation all these years ;)

    Besides, at 85 skill you can own and control a pair of kitsune. More than poweful enough for general hunting till you're trained up. Had we not had kitsune, I think there would be more grounds for complaint, but I've tamed for over 9 years and I use kits as the main pet on all but my main tamer.

    We could shave a few seconds off the time it takes to complete a taming attempt, which would mean we could tame more pets in a shorter time span. Or even cut it right down for non-aggressive critters, but mainain the risk of taming aggressives by taking the usual time... something like that. I think one reason players feel taming is so slow is the time between attempts. If you could tame twice as many critters in an hour or better, you'd gain at a much faster rate.

    Wenchy
     
  27. Sheridan

    Sheridan Guest

    Exactly... I imagine it won't be an instantaneous drop in the form but rather on a timer of some sort.
     
  28. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Sounds like youve been playing SWG just look what happened to that game ITS A GHOST TOWN!
     
  29. If dropping below the minimum skill takes you out of the form and you're only over it with items then it will drop you out of the form when you cross server lines.
     
  30. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Nah, never touched SWG, WoW or any of their ilk tbh.

    Oddly enough though the other games I do play online have items at certain levels and you either level up to obtain them or you don't have them. I haven't seen any requests on their forums for the introduction of levelling up items or enabling level 1 newbies to have the items that a trained character has. Players just y'know, train up...

    Just because some in UO seem to think it ought to be the norm to have content handed to us on a silver platter, doesn't mean it should become mandatory throughout the entire game to satisfy them. Some of us like challenges and would quit if it got too easy. Just as those who don't want to work will move on to easier games. Because however this game develops, it'll either be too hard for some or too easy for others.

    Wenchy
     
  31. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    Without some additional protection to prevent this when crossing server lines (a timer, for example, like Sheridan mentioned... or perhaps a flag that gets set whenever you enter a new server that gets turned off once all your items have been registered on the new server).
     
  32. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    SWG was cool untill they killed it ala aos style in one publish a few years back.

    WoW has some cool ideas but way to linear, End game is just that you shut down your account out of bordem cause raids take alot of people to gather.
     
  33. Starla

    Starla Guest

    So will it be in the future, all + skills items effect be changed?

    1. Tamers who use +skill items to tame / control / bond / increase stable slots need to have the items on if not they will lose their pets.

    2. Bard who use items to discord need to keep items on for discord to stay.

    Just some thoughts on this....
     
  34. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest

    I've been waiting for this one to come up as I see a lot of floating jewelry from bards in Doom after discording. Really makes no difference to me as I usually just swap spellbooks on my bard.