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Poisoning and Potion Timers

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Violence, Apr 19, 2010.

  1. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    This is a post about Poisoning which needs to be re-balanced and at the same time about Potion Timers, which are much needed(for the matter even Refresh pots should have a cool-down) if there is to be any simple and effective Poisoning re-balance.
    Let me break it all down and present to you my thoughts in a decent structure as best I can. All I ask is that you read through before thinking I'm "whining" or calling for a nerf.

    Using Poisoning Effectively
    The only way to "effectively" (and I'm really skeptical it can be called that) use Poisoning is to keep spamming Infect as the target spends their GCures and drain their supply.

    - You want to have high Poisoning to counter Petals and Vampire Form.
    - Make sure you've automated your poison application completely through a well-set macro and keep re-applying when you run out of charges.

    However this will not kill your target since they will simply run away once out of potions in theory. Here's a problem: They won't in practice, you will run out of Deadly Poisons first most likely(more on that below). They can also simply Disarm you.
    If they are not running scripts you may manage to slip a couple of ticks in and that's it, except now there are so many other ways to counter this!
    Where do I start with that arguement, Cleansing Winds? Poison Eater items(least of worries, that)? Before going into this, let me say a few things more.

    Poison Types

    At first Poisoners were glad to have them added. Then it became apparent. The different Poison types are generally useless.
    - Parasitic is somewhat better from the two(I am stretching it, I think it's not even considered "Deadly" Poison) but it's a pain to produce(not like Deadlies aren't to be honest) resource-wise considering failure rates.
    - Can't compare GCure spams to Parasitic or Deadly Poison spams in this regard.

    Advantages?

    What is there to say to this skill's defense?
    - I think it counts towards Mana Cost reduction on weapon special moves(as if most players don't already have 40% LMC and enough Tactics/WeaponSkill to enjoy this benefit at full capacity).
    - Sometimes might waste a player's bandage IF they go out of timing(if they are not running medic scripts that is to say, though really, a lot of players can do it through personal skill and a bit of practice).

    It can't even "break" healing through bandages(as in causing a "finger slip").

    Alternatives To Poison(Why You Should NOT Invest In It)

    It's much cheaper and productive to use Mortal Wound as a substitute.
    - No resources
    - No skill involved
    - Most weapons couple it with really good specials
    - It's on, generally speaking, good weapons
    - Counters healing methods better
    - Counters MORE healing methods
    - Player must spend Enchanted Apples which do have a timer

    Mortal Wound Problems : Paladins will be able to deal with it effectively(Remove Curse I believe removes Mortal) and maybe Mystics too although I haven't tried Cleansing Winds personally.
    No issues here, still by far better than Poisoning and doing PRECISELY what Poisoning should be doing(and considering Poisoning should also be dealing Damage-Over-Time not attempting to re-balance Poisoning is bordering sarcasm).

    Examples Demonstrating Combat/Practical Application Of Poisoning

    In a combat situation try to DP your enemy and dish out damage against them while they're poisoned(if you can be THAT fast and this is not irony):
    - They won't even run, it's too easy to deal with if they're an average PVPer and above.

    Now try the same with Mortal Wound and [Prefered Damage Spam] :
    - If they are not Paladins with max FC/FCR and enough Mana and after the first Enchanted Apple timer kicks in they WILL begin evading you.

    This again points to Mortal Wound being by far better, hands down. :thumbup1: This is not to say Mortal Wound needs to be toned down, it's just an observation that works towards making my final point.

    PVM
    Not much to say, a constant Infect spam will keep magical creatures busy curing themselves which may actually buy you time to heal or some such action. Monsters are as good as players in curing through magic it seems so do not expect any fascinating results. Non-magical creatures may be damaged through DOT from being poisoned but with the amounts of Health EA/M has given to the mobs it is simply neglectible.

    - The skill is below mediocre for PVM and that's being generous!

    Counter-Arguements

    1. Shuriken/Fuwkyia Counter-Arguement

    One does not need Poisoning for that, merely DPed ammunition and good timing with macros. Plus those use Ninjitsu!
    Therefore I can't even attribute any levels of success in using those methods to Poisoning. Simply use a Poisoner to supply your character. And really even then all you will manage to do in practice is always have a form of "Infect" which as said, WILL NOT REALLY HINDER your target.

    - Example : Use Fuwkyia + Mortal + [Preferred Damage Spam] = Your target will proceed to cure, so that takes Poisoning again OUT of the equation within a split second.

    2. GCure Fail Rates

    Now I do not know where people get their data from but in practical application I have NEVER, EVER, had any more than 10 out of more than 500 PVP encounters where my target actually wasted more than 1 MS on a fail. The number of encounters if not exaggerated, in fact I must have been involved in way much more over the last 4 years.

    To the point : In fact it may be that because GCures HAVE NO TIMER people mushing their GCure macro make it appear like GCures never fail when in fact they may be! This alone indicates ONE THING ONLY and works TOWARDS my point. E

    - Even if success rates Vs. Lethal Poison are raised to 100% for ALL curing methods I wouldn't mind AS LONG AS THERE WAS A COOL DOWN FOR ALL POTIONS.
    I cannot stress this simple solution enough!

    3. The Notion That Players Need More Than One Method To Counter Poisoning To Be Safe From It

    People will claim that I just said myself one needs more than 2 combined ways to be safe from Poisoners. This is out-right false.

    - A player WITHOUT A SINGLE SKILL POINT INVESTED IN ANY HEALING OR CURING METHOD can simply spam GCures and circle around their opponent for the GHeal to kick in and they will COMPLETELY nullify any skill point their opponent will have invested in Poisoning.
    Exceptions would be Shuriken/Fuwkyia but that is irrelevant with the Poisoning skill, in fact it will cost said opponent another 100 or 120 skill-points and again WILL BE INSTANTLY CURED.
    Because, let me say again, THERE ARE NO POTION TIMERS.

    Solution

    Potion timers.
    Yes, even on Refresh, all this running around is dizzying! There is no getting "locked" in combat in Ultima! But that's another discussion and honestly not urgent even if there are, again, TOO MANY METHODS to fill up Stamina without a potion altogether.

    Below is a list of things you can do or have that will keep you 100% safe from Deadly and Lethal Poison just for your information :

    - GCure potions
    - Cleansing Winds
    - Cleanse By Fire
    - Magery Cure spells
    - Bandages/Enhanced Bandages
    - Healing Stone(After the last update to Mysticism)
    - Gift Of Renewal(Heals Through)
    - Spirit Speak(Heals Through)

    For anything less than Deadly you may add these to the list :

    - Orange Petals
    - Vampire Form
    - Unicorn Form(Somewhat rare to encounter in PVP)
    - Cure potions(Chance is sufficient)

    This all shows that the last counter-arguement, the notion that Potion Timers would render Poisoning over-powered, is also false. There are too many ways to counter Poisoning.

    Further Insight

    Most players regardless of set-up and template will be able to combine more than 2 of those ways to counter your skill! (For instance a melee character will probably combine GCure, Bandages and an ability like Cleanse By Fire) before you even have time to damage them, messing up timing(which is why I say completely spam your target with Infect and hope that they run out of Potions.

    - Even then Poisoning won't be what will kill them, you're better off with Mortal Wound).

    - Bandages = Skill so I can live with that.
    - Spell = Skill so I can live with that.
    - Potions = ? They need TIMERS, they are ITEMS countering a skill.


    A rather comical addition : With Poison Eater the target might as well Heal a bit of damage while Poison ticks kick in but it's by no means a tremendous advantage so to say. It's only now the "Cherry On The Top".

    So what is EA/M thinking on this?

    Is Poisoning meant for prankster characters leaving around poisoned food for new players to eat? If that's the explanation I can live with it but somehow I think that's not the case.

    I call for no nerf of Mortal Wound, for no nerf at all in fact. Only for a much needed balance change which many templates will enjoy.
    - Mages for example have a poison and a poison field spell too.
    - Archers have Serpent Arrow which would make much more sense if GCures had a timer.

    PS: I'm aware there are many other skills that have been ignored for too long(Bards? Detectives?), not trying to diminish the importance of giving them some love with this post.

    But Poisoning is right there with them in the "Recycle Bin" and there is NOTHING I have read, heard or seen so far in Stratics OR in the game, for the last 4 years or so, to indicate the opposite. The skill works FINE, but LACK OF POTION TIMERS have completely BROKEN IT.

    That's all I had to say, I hope you enjoyed reading through if nothing else. I tried to be as constructive and "clean" as I could.
     
  2. Exgirlfriend

    Exgirlfriend Journeyman
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    If you think you have it bad try playing a nox-mage...LOL I do, But only for the reason ive pvp'ed for about 11 years now and its a challange. Im not sure how it works now but we used to get a 5% chance to cast LP and i guess if they brought that back guys like me would be totaly over-powered...I do agree, posioning is under-powered and could use some love..but im a little more concerned with people using 50% ep, to me that is way over-powered.
     
  3. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    poison is nerfed for sure. you have a well thought out arguement.

    potions totally need to be looked at. there should be a pctg thrown in that determines whether they work or not.

    right now it looks like we have nothing but god like alchemists playing this game.
     
  4. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @ EXGIRLFRIEND
    Totally over-powered because of a 5% chance to cast Lethal? I have 100% chance to apply LP on a target and yet they will not budge when it is applied(so whether it is a ranged or melee attack doesn't matter), exactly as I describe in my first post.

    The methods and speed by which a player can counter poisons, in other words first and foremost the lack of potion timers as I noted, indicate the opposite of what you mention.

    The fact that there is no Potion Timer ruins this particular skill. It is otherwise fine though. I could say the same about the Focus skill and Stamina Regeneration either through Forms, abilities or items due to Total Refresh potions.

    Now in case you over-looked it, if you stand next to your target you will increase the potency of your Poison spell given that you have Poisoning as a mage.

    About Enhance Potions.. Even if EA/M removed the EP property there would still be need for timers, no change. Furthermore with imbuing you can easily reach 50% EP and be equal to everyone else. There is nothing flawed about it(except in my eyes EP should be reserved for people who spend 100 points in Alchemy and not found on items) and is not an issue.

    To use a real example, being a player used to healing SOLELY through GHeals with max EP due to my play-style I can tell you it's not as peachy as you may think.
    Basing your defenses on GH potions and EP alone may save you from quick in-and-out encounters gone bad whether you initiate them or are the target of one. It may also save you sometimes if you "dance" around your target when the GH timer doesn't favour you.

    But "dancing" around can be easily cut short so to speak by experienced PVPers and it usually puts me in a very difficult situation and any serious fighting, especially with more than 2 people involved in total, will show that I need a "real" way to heal, not to mention Mortal Wound(especially when the Enchanted Apple timer isn't on your side) will send me running. If it weren't for Poisoning I could have Healing which would increase my survivability x10 and I'd be able to ressurect my team's members too. Below I'll try to explain why I don't yet do exactly that.

    So I am sorry but I do not really agree that the EP property is OPed. Nor that it has anything to do with my post unless it is suggested that EP affects Poisons used on weapons making them [EP Value] harder to Cure.
    Even then it would just mean that the targets of a poisoner would spend a bit more potions as they mush their macro or run their scripts and it would accomplish nothing in the long run.

    Seriously..
    Anyone into PVP who actually has Poisoning in their template do so out of personal preference, knowing that it does not offer any advantage, only disadvantages the way things are with potions.
    They're not masochists, they just like to think of their characters as "Rogues" or "Assassins" and play them as such since there is a Poisoning skill. I am not referring to RPing by the way.
    Really, does anyone actually think said Assassins and Rogues exchange Parrying or Healing or even Resistance because Poisoning secretly "RoXxOrs"? rolleyes:
    Anyway if EA/M tells the players that the current mechanics that balance Poisoning Vs. Greater/Cure Potions are here to stay they may as well put the skill on a Soul-Stone and use Mortal Wound.

    Personally I simply cannot believe this is the case hence my original post.

    If GHs have gotten a balanced timer, so should GCs and TR potions. The current system looks like a half-finished balance pass from the past and if EA/M deem it complete, then I still want to know whether they are going to change it to what it should be. :confused:

    If not, they might as well remove GH timers too. It would "only" completely negate your fighting skill - A skill you CHOSE because it is available and you like it and you should well want it to do what it is supposed to do for 100 skill points, instead of being rendered useless due to a consumable not having a timer!
    According to the current mechanics people should be able to live with such a handicap if others can live with Cure Potions negating poisoning or Total Refresh replacing Focus.. rolleyes: :stretcher:
     
  5. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    The potion thing has gotten out of control. I see fights constantly where people won't even engage without an alchemy lab in their backpack. And when resources run dry? Run and get more. I have had 20 minute long fights with Archers that wont end until they run out of bandages, heal pots AND refresh potions AND their 80 skill ninja animal form stamina runs out.

    At some point, there should be a notion that if you are outgunned and outplayed, potions will only take you so far. Right now they allow for some crazy playstyles (Bushido/Ninjitsu Bokuto Deathstrike combo). Timers would force a lot of these people to sit back and think "Is all this running worth it? Maybe I should pick up an actual skill." Once that happens, we can see some return to normalcy on templates and damage output.
     
  6. I support potion timers. Things are out of hand...

    If not a timer, make using more then 3 cures in 10 seconds cause like 50hp damage.
     
  7. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    The interaction between cure pots and poison won't be solved by simply adding a timer to the cures.
    You'll take it from one extreme of poison-cure-poison-cure-poison-cure (cure beats poison), to the other poison-cure-poison-cooldown (poison beats cure).

    Another example could be hiding and detect.
    If a person is hidden, and they're detected, they can instantly hide again while the detect skill is still in cooldown, ultimately negating the detect in the first place.

    Mechanical interactions like that are just bad.
    Only worsened by the automation of medic scripts.
     
  8. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @KIMINALITY
    This "extreme" is what GHeal Pots timers Vs. Damage is based on, however you find it solves nothing? Sorry but I can't say I agree, obviously.
    Would you support removing timers from GHeals as well since they work in such an "extreme" fashion as you say?

    Furthermore, with a timer Poison(mind, that is 100 skill points and actually SHOULD beat an item) will "beat" GCure SPAMS, not the player and not proper use of GCures. And as well it might - Take a look at the points I have made in my previous two posts please, I am under the impression you may have missed a couple. :)

    Potions Vs Poisoning/Focus/Fighting would still be quite balanced with timers implemented because of the many other ways a player can deal with poisoners, damage and Stamina Regen.

    Regarding your Hiding/Detect example I first wish to add that both are skills! This is a big difference as you understand, no items involved in your example. Moreover there IS a cool-down in using Hiding so what exactly are you saying?
    I will assume your point is that timers would only turn Cures Vs. Poisons into an endless interaction. Let me try to show why this is invalid:

    - There are many ways to cure or be immune to poisons
    - There are ways to avoid the poisoner
    - Infect will not always hit
    - Infect requires Mana and Charges which both may run out requiring re-application of Poison during fights
    - Infect can be parried
    - Poisoner's weapon can be disarmed
    - Infect requires Poisoning and a weapon skill when potions require NOTHING

    For more examples just re-view my posts here.

    This is similar to your example - The person Hiding can invest in Stealth (much like the Poisoner must invest in Fighting skill if you see the investment relation here) and move away to a direction their experience indicates to be the best route. And like-wise, the Detective can try to use their experience to aim their Detect Hidden.

    I am saying that in your example you're presenting this to be indeed too "mechanical", completely set-up. In describing the situation with Poisons and Cures I use practical examples that are not set-up and still point that the poisoner is at complete disadvantage against an ITEM. Because it has no timers. Which appears to be a simple over-sight on the part of EA/M to be honest. And this stands for Total Refresh too.

    I do not wish for either side to be completely dumbed down and I think I have shown in the total of my posts that this would not be the case were potions to have timers, nor would it limit the player against a poisoner more than GHeals limit an attacker for the matter.

    Ultimately, just as Hding should NEVER be on its own a GodMode/Invisibility mode(hence Detecting being at a slight advantage), so should ALL POTIONS NEVER BE ON THEIR OWN able to completely negate incoming damage, Stamina getting lowered and Poisons(hence it is reasonable that the poisoner should have a slight advantage) being applied, ESPECIALLY AT 0 SKILL COST(when Poisoning actually requires investing in it). The solution still seems to be TIMERS.

    I think it is clear my issues are not with Enhance Potions nor do I think the solution lies in dissallowing EP.
    I am all for having Alchemy giving EP and in fact as I said I am all for it being the ONLY way to have EP instead of it being an item property, but I'd still argue TIMERS are much needed and that Alchemy and EP should only enhance the effects and NOT lower or remove timers.

    I can understand that since Special Moves on weapons(Infect in this case) do not have timers it appears that adding timers to potions may un-balance combat.
    Still, a player needs skills and Mana for these moves.

    Some time ago I read about a suggestion to make potions' effects weaker by each consecutive use within a certain time limit just like Special Moves drain more Mana if used repeatedly. I disagree even with that, the problem is faster than per-second attempts to use potions. For example even if this was to be applied as a solution, when Player A would damage or poison Player B, B would simply run the other way until through consecutive drinking of potions they get back to full health and stamina and be cured. And with button-mushing and scripts this would only take 2-3 seconds even if Heals ended up healing for less than 10 HP.

    I have also seen somewhere another suggestion, that potions use global timers- An example would be using a Total Refresh blocking a player for several seconds from using ANY other potion. I disagreed with that too, THIS is what would ruin potions. Regarding this I would say using SAME TYPE of potions should block using instantly another potion of the SAME TYPE that is its Lesser/Normal/Greater version but that is all. :)

    The simplest, most practical solution is to have Cure and Refresh potions and their Greater/Lesser/Total versions have timers just like Healing Potions! If we want to be absolutely fair and given there are ways based on skills to remove Curse/Feeblemind/ETC effects, even STR/DEX potions should have timers.
     
  9. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Agreed

    Potion timers are needed.

    People as you say, negate 80-100points of skill for a constantly spammable 0 skill required consumable.

    Even fukiya darts and shurikens require skill investment to use, GC's do not.

    Ive always been of the mind that skill should be greater than items, hence mortal is greater than apples (doesnt quite work with curses).

    It still needs adressing in a few items, Trap boxes and Cures specifically.

    I play with a few chars who have no healing at all and run completely on pots.

    I also have a poisoner (with pary resist and chivalry) and i can tell you, the ONLY time it provides and advantage is against a non re-stocked dexxer.

    Even the mage mini cure spell completely overpowers Deadly poison.
     
  10. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    So...
    -Give Cures a chance to fail... maybe 50% at no alchemy, no EP.
    -Apply a 5 second timer between Cure pots.
    -However, once the poison is cured, you're poison immune for 'x' amount of time.

    -- duration of immunity should depend the method of curing used. If you cure with chiv, the immunity timer is based on chiv skill, if you cure with magery, it's based on eval, if with Spellweaving, amount of skill, etc.
    -- having the poisoning skill gives an additional boost to the immunity timer
    -- Not all methods of curing give equal immunity rates, Alchemy skill would have the best duration, Chiv's immunity duration would be greater than magery's duration with equivalent skill levels, and EP wouldn't have any effect on immunity duration. (don't want to make it overpowered)

    So if they apply poison, you attempt to cure, if you fail, you get hit by the poison tics, and attempt to cure again after 5 seconds.
    (Lethal poison tics are also every 5 seconds, so 1 failed cure is 1 LP tic)
    To keep poisoners from being ridiculously overpowered, once cured, you gain a poison immunity for a certain amount of time.

    Other forms of curing: Cleanse by Fire, Cure, Greater Cure, Cleansing Winds, etc. still work, and they also give the immunity.

    It's a balance between making Poisoners neither overpowered nor useless, and also giving other cure methods a bit more use.

    The idea basically hinges on how long you make 'x' for the immunity duration, if it's too long, poisoning's still useless, if it's too short, poison's overpowered.
     
  11. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I like this.

    And I don't know if this has already been said, but your chance to actually poison should be dependent on your poisoning skill and the intensity of the poison, not just your chance to apply poison to an item or edible. And for tinkers their chance to successful create a poison trap should also depend on poisoning skill.

    And as a final measure, speed up the damage ticks ever so slightly, and increase the damage slightly for the lower level poisons, and a bit more for high level poisons. These changes would make the poisoning skill meaningful again. Right now poisoning is virtually useless.

    Oh ya, the real final measure needs to be effective third party cheat detection, and bans for their use, so not as many run health scripts anymore...
     
  12. CroakerTnT

    CroakerTnT Guest

    I agree. Poisoning is useless except for killing newbs, rezkilling, and killing people who aren't prepared for pvp.

    In PvM, it's actually useful to cast the deadly poison fields - helps a lot in a spawn.

    That said, GCure failure rate for Lethal poison should be about 75%, for deadly poison about 50%, for greater poison about 25%. And, GCures should have a timer just like GHeals do.
     
  13. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
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    Very well put together Sick. Ya Sou!
    I'm training poisoning (super slowly) and my goal was to stone it because I don't know why I bother.
    Some type of timer would help.. heck.. even 1 second is better than nothing!

    Skills should beat non skills, as stated, but how about the other end? Couldn't there be some kind of 'check' that says if there's no healing skills (no magery, healing, chiv, spirit speak, mysticism, bushido) then have a lower timer on potions? Timers were/or should be pretty much put to tone down the other gimp guys, but why nerf the pure warrior with no healing at all? I'm just saying.. Sure have the timer, but not to the point where a pure warrior is useless.

    I'd like to see Poisoning + Alchemy give a combo benefit of some sort. Perhaps those two giving an area poison effect. Sounds like devious fun.
     
  14. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Good evening again!

    @STUPID MINER
    Very constructive, clearly some thinking has been put into your post. :thumbup1:
    However I believe simple solutions or small first steps are safer and somewhat easier to balance altogether.

    Failure rates would have to be examined closely, yet only after a timer is implemented, at which point this task will be made a lot easier and clear perhaps.

    @CROAKERTNT
    I believe you find those Poison Fields usefull due to the fact that they constantly automatically re-apply poison to whatever valid target steps inside them without the caster's involvement, keeping mobs busy. Especially NPCs who cannot heal through magic or have very low health.

    In the same line of thinking allow me to suggest that melee characters can use Ninjitsu's Animal Form, Giant Snake, along with an Area Effect weapon to produce similar effects. Whatever the Area Effect damages will get poisoned even if you do not use Infect or have Poisoning.
    It is safer than Frog, as you do not need to be hit thus taking damage.
    It's still an inadequate method to PvM.

    @LLEWEN
    It would be a good idea to tie Poisoning and Poison Level used on a weapon or device to the action's success chance, it seems it could be a nice final touch towards making Poisoning useful at all.

    However I am skeptical towards damage increases or speeding up poison effects, I would first like to see how effective poisons would be with potion timers in place. There may not be a need for further balancing if that is done. Nice ideas altogether though!

    As for 3rd Party Apps you are absolutely right. I suppose we will have to trust what the April's Producers' Letter told us.

    @HILDEBRAND
    Thanks for the kudos!
    It seems the problem with Warriors in Ultima Online will not be made more complex by adding timers to potion. Such characters are not strong because of other reasons, far more fundamental!

    Warriors lack basic skills and abilities found in all other games, such as :

    - Dual Wield (On this I must say, what is really so difficult in allowing Blacksmiths to create "Dual" versions of all one-handed weapons given that they are balanced well compared to two-handed and one-handed weapons?)
    - Distance-closing methods
    - Two-Handed Weapons focus
    - Shieldsfighting (I am referring to the ability to use a shield for more than just blocking, for example charging)
    - Methods to slow down or pin a target

    ...And even more!!

    Even character statistics are not "equal" in Ultima, with strength simply not adding enough damage(there is a lot to say about damage in Ultima Online, most weapons are NOT dealing enough damage in average to be effective, nor damage-over-time, requiring constant special moves spams and to be honest with you that's why Mana is an issue when it should NOT be for Warriors, Archers and Throwers included I think) and dexterity being treated merely as speed and not even that, you're better off using Stamina Increase for your swinging speed so it is only Healing speed actually!

    - Lastly instead of Stamina, Warriors in Ultima Online use Mana! (Changing this would mean introducing Mana Potions, which I would be fine with, if they too had timers of course)

    All these I wish to post about as well, but not here. :stretcher: I believe I have pointed out that adding timers to potions, however, will not be what really makes Warriors problematic in Ultima. Do not forget, Poison/Warriors are also very, very close to "Pure" Warriors. In fact they have even less defensive measures! But let's not turn this into a comparison please. :)

    I must also say that Poisoners have no points to spare for Alchemy more often than not, especially melee-based characters. So while I agree Alchemy should be the only EP factor if a player wishes to heal only through potions, I would suggest that Poisoning remains un-tied to other skills in regards to providing its full effects.
    Let me however remind you that in a previous post here I had explained that even if EP was not tied to a skill and Poisons did benefit from it, still timers would be needed!

    Perhaps, however, Alchemists or Chefs that are also Poisoners could be able to produce new exotic varieties of strong poisons along with their antidotes.
     
  15. I run a temp which really works well,

    4/6

    120 combat (swords i use because of captian johsn hat)
    120 eval
    120 resist
    100 parry
    100 tactics
    80 poisoning
    50 chiv
    65 magery

    its more of a fun temp right now, But the poisoning works really well with the bleed. and ai's

    Poisoning is now a support skill, its something you spam in pvp when someone is on foot, its something you use for your ninjia, its also something u use to lower your mana cost...

    If you changed it you just given Dexxers another weapon vs the mages,

    Now one I would not mind poisoning going back to its orginal way and make it a chance on hit, so you the speical move and the dp both go on the target,

    And another thing, I dont know if you ever played a Ninjia mage but the Ninjia stars and fukujya darts are really really good..
     
  16. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @RUMPELSTILTSKIN

    I am not quite sure it is Poisoning that gives you any success you may be having. Right now this support that Poisoning should offer is blocked easily as I describe in my couple of posts including the original one, irrelevant of your target's situation(on foot or on horse, bleeding, receiving constant Armour Ignore spams or spell dumps or being under Mortal Wound).

    The Mana Cost Reduction can be achieved already through other skills as well, also something I pointed out earlier.

    I am not asking for a way to counter a particular template though. I am not even asking for a direct Poisoning change, only debating for potions to be balanced, in particular Cure potions, as are Heal potions. I believe my arguements are quite valid altogether.

    Poisoning being based on chance would improve nothing except saving Poisoners more Mana to perform other special moves and is not a real solution as a Poisoner's target would still proceed to Cure with extreme ease.

    Regarding playing a Ninja/Mage or a Ninja/Warrior, it does not matter. I have covered the darts and the throwing stars arguement sufficiently if I may say so myself, and still must insist about how it would not actually offer any advantage to you as things currently are. Even if it did, it would be much more because of Ninjitsu, not because of Poisons.

    In danger of sounding rude I have to wonder whether your targets had any experience in PVP and whether poisoning, darts and shuriken or not, would have beared the same result. For instance if it was a 3-On-1 with you being on the 3-man team I doubt you could attribute the out-come to Poisoning. rolleyes:

    Do not missunderstand, I have had my luck with my Poison/Ninja as well, but that is not saying much. I know it can be boring going through text-bricks like my original post and replies but you may find that I have covered these issues already.

    .....And.. Funky template there! :)
     
  17. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I think you misunderstand my use of extreme.

    Poison is an essentially boolean condition.
    True - Poisoned (damage over time, and blocks certain healing)
    False - Not poisoned (none of the above)
    The "extremes" I mentioned were which boolean state is favoured. Currently, the ability to run GC chasers favours "Not poisoned", but a timer that blocks the use of a cure switches the favour to "poisoned"
    The addition of a timer to potions can't be compared to the mana use on a special move, or investment of skills. In effect, it's apples to oranges.

    To briefly address the Greater Heal point you raised, it's not strictly the same, since damage isn't the same as whether a character's poisoned or not.
    I don't think the timer should be removed to allow chaining of them, though. Perhaps a heal potion should trigger a regeneration effect, instead? n hit points restored per second for 10 seconds, where drinking a new heal potion would reset the timer so it would run for another 10 seconds, without stacking the regen.
    Not that heal potions are really the subject here.

    So, basically, I don't disagree with the core of what you're saying. I just don't agree that adding an arbitrary timer is the way to fix the problems.
     
  18. Gelf

    Gelf Guest

    preferably i'd just say to make it a sub skill of alchemy(like masonry is to carpentry)

    or

    just make it so the first tick of poison damage hits instantly(don't play a poisoner, so not sure if this would be overpowered)
     
  19. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @KIMINALITY
    It would not favour the "Poisoned" state, it would only allow Poisoning to be usefull without being overly effective. There are enough methods to counter Poison, you are looking at it through a very mathematical and theoretical point of view not to mention it's very Black-And-White, bringing up terms and conditions that are too artificial or one-sided in regard of what really happens "out there". You are even failing to take into account hit-or-miss or even block chances and such.

    No offense but the examples you have used are inadequate in showing potion timers are not the solution. In them you take into account what happens if two players stand next to each other and Player A constantly infects Player B(no weapon damage needs to be taken into account here), with B unable to use ANYTHING but GCures, claiming that if the GCures had a timer, B would eventually die of poisoning and that that is unacceptable(?!).
    You are therefore saying potions should not have timers and that B should be immune to 100.0 points invested by A into a way to kill B.

    Moreover you contradict yourself by saying that you would NOT agree to Player A being immune through GHeals' timers being removed, to Player B's fighting skill(a situation IDENTICAL to Poison Vs. Cure) and for quite subjective reasons at that(those being how you personally see and treat damage and damage delivery methods)!

    Sorry. It is only natural that Player B's chances to die should increase. That is because Player A has invested 100.0 points to kill B, that is without counting Weapon Damage and Weapon Skill to hit the target, to emphasize it more.
    Player B has only invested in GCures and can nullify completely 100.0 points Player A invested into increasing B's chances to die- As there are NO TIMERS.

    With timers the only thing that would change would be this in your own example :

    - [True] Poisoned ; Damage over time and blocks certain healing IF NOT CURED INSTANTLY ON THE FIRST TRY(since timers would come into play after that) along with Player B being able to re-try to cure after a certain amount of time DURING WHICH HE MAY USE 100.0 SKILL POINTS, TACTICS, COMMON SENSE AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TO STAY ALIVE AGAINST PLAYER A'S INVESTMENT OF AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF 100.0 SKILL POINTS JUST TO INCREASE B'S CHANCES TO DIE.
    That is, instead of using AN ITEM because that item CAN BE ENDLESSLY SPAMMED.

    Forgive the CAPSLOCK.

    Also, of course we can compare everything used in this equation! If Mana use and skill investment among other things come into play in practical application they MUST be taken under consideration. One must see the whole picture to be realistic in finding balance.

    I can't really repeat what I've already said but let me try to explain this once more, take Bleed for example:
    - It stops certain healing methods(the SAME I believe as Infect, since currently Cure Pots have no timer and can be used instantly against Infect)
    - It deals damage over time(and it actually does so far more often than Infect!)
    - It cannot be dealt with through consumables, at least not ones that require no skill to handle
    - It requires 100.0 less skill points investment
    - It is now even boosted by Stygian Abyss items and can even HEAL a player as a matter of fact

    Shall we say, with your logic, that GHeals should have no timers because of this special move's True and False booleans and superiority compared to Infect really? rolleyes: I hope this example will make it a bit more clear. :) There is no state alteration because it is instantly negated when using Infect. There is SUPPOSED to be an alteration, which is why it requires skill points ETC. That alteration could STILL BE DEALT WITH EFFECTIVELY if EA/M where to add potion timers.

    A timer fixed the problems with Heal Potions. It will also fix the problems with Cure Potions.

    Finally, Heal Potions work perfectly in my eyes and I explained why already, in fact that is why I am suggesting using the same model for all other potions.

    If I would change anything else at all it would be Enhance Potions being tied to Alchemy and only available through that skill. If I wanted to be far more strict I would even ask for a way to limit CONSUMABLES in general. Much like the potion belts we saw in Diablo 2.

    @GELF
    How would merging Alchemy and Poisoning improve anything regarding the issue here or offer Poisoners anything for the matter, apart from the ability to create potions on the spot if they happen for whatever strange reason to carry around the appropriate resources while in combat?

    As for your other suggestion, unless the damage of that hypothetical first(and only, with the current system) "forced" damage tick is not comparable to say, Armour Ignore(consider the skill points investment) then the move can simply be replaced by Armour Ignore. Then again, if it WAS comparable to other special moves' damage out-put it would still be far inferior exactly because of the skill-points requirement(those could be invested far better than simply bringing Infect on the same level as all the other special moves by "forcing" the initial tick of about ten or so damage), the limited charges and so on. :sad4:

    I cannot quite agree with your suggestions. :confused:
     
  20. BLACK^^

    BLACK^^ Guest

    I think a 5 second timer on cures is sufficient to fix the uselessness of nox atm and the most we can expect out of the devs.
     
  21. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Definitely. Of course the lesser the Cure's level, the shorter the timer should be, if Heals still work like that as well.

    Anyway I'd like to share a couple of things from last night's PVP which I found interesting, especially the second one.

    First one :
    I was fighting someone at Yew at some point and I kept poisoning my target. After a bit of "fussing" around we ceased fighting for a reason I can't remember and instead stopped to chat.

    He told me poisoning absolutely rocks, though he failed to actually back up his statement- Every single time I had poisoned him he had instantly cured using only potions even though he was a mage. I believe whatever makes people think Infect is at all dangerous is probably psychological(HP turning green, the sound effect, Lesser Cures not working against LP as much, the system message) or generally simply annoys them to have to mush an extra macro. :confused:

    I know I still get nervous when facing a Mystic as I don't quite understand their spells yet and when I see one dumping Magery/Mystic spells combos it impresses me to be honest!! :thumbup1:

    And second :
    A bit later I had another fight against a Chiv/Archer. Me and a friend were hunting him down and every now and then I'd catch up and Infect him and he'd use a GCure. However he must have forgotten to re-stock(probably from an earlier fight) so at some point he said "Oh well, out of Cures." and just let himself die..

    I really, really have to wonder at this mentality. He was at full capacity to do so, had enough FC/FCR and was poisoned for quite a time during which neither me nor my friend were able to land a hit or a spell- And yet he refused to do anything like use his Chiv to survive once his potions were out..!! Surely he had enough Mana for at least a single Cleanse By Fire, the way me and that friend initially jumped him sent him on a defensive run.

    It made me wonder, I've seen Chivalry and Magery characters heal and cure using just their skills in much tighter situations. Not like we put a real lot of pressure on that person.

    I think I need not say more about consumables being spammed and ridiculously over-used if people forget to use their real skills once potions run out..!! rolleyes:
     
  22. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I hate to say it, but it sounds to me as though this person was using health scripts that were only set up to use pots. So when he ran out he had no other options for curing, and who knows, maybe a flaw in the script was preventing him from using cleanse by fire once he ran out of cure pots. The other happier option is that he was so reliant on pots that he simply had never bothered to set up a cleanse by fire macro or desktop icon.

    But regardless of what the truth is with this specific person, health scripts are being widely used in pvp. I don't have a guess on exact numbers, but I think it's pretty much a given that in any large scale pvp battle in UO there are at least a few that are using health scripts.
     
  23. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Again this is century old dead horse.

    Again poisoning (especially Lethal Poison) is OVERPOWERED without pot and UNDERPOWERED with good supply of pot. It balances around your 1 DP pot can take away 12 of their gcure pot. If someone is completely ******** and carries 500 gcure, you can run them out in 42 DP pots. In reality most people carry 10 to 40 which if they dont run away you will eventually win, and dont even make me to remind you infectious strike takes 3 mana to use 6 to spam.

    Put timer on Gcure, then no poison should be allowed to be chained, if Gcure takes 10 second to reuse, them one can only be poisoned by the same attacker once every 10 seconds it's simple as that.

    If you make curing too difficult then Lethal Poison is essentially a MORTAL STRIKE that lasts FOREVER while dealing 20 damage once every 5 seconds at a cost of 3 mana.
     
  24. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    wonderful thread. i love it all.
    timer on the GC chance to cure lethal nox.

    i played with gm nox for maybe 7 years until i brought a character to GL and ran into alchemy labs...

    timer would be wonderful, and if they complain there is still what 5 other ways to cure it besides pots?

    cleanse by fire
    cleansing winds
    cure
    arch cure
    aids

    timer for the win.
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, I don't think anything is a dead horse right now given the level of attention that is being payed to the continued development of UO. I've said this more than once, I don't think we've ever had a dev team paying as much attention to what their clients are telling them, and their suggestions.
     
  26. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    You cant just put a timer on something and call it fixed. Everything about it has to be reworked.

    For example. Those that say "put a timer on refresh pots" Ok, so I get hit by ONE armor ignore and lose 20-30 stam points, right? I refresh. Now say I'm unable to refresh for another 5-10 seconds. I get hit for another armor ignore immediately after. My stam has dropped again. My swing speed has now reduced by .25-.50. Also, on top of that I just got strangled or pain spiked (forget which one does the damage over time with low stam). Its doing huge amounts of damage because I cannot fix my stam issue. Now I get hit again by armor ignore.

    You see what I'm saying here? They would have to re-work how stam is taken away from targets and what not.

    Just cant put timers on **** and call it fixed.
     
  27. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Thou you could have stamina regen, focus or use divine fury. I'm not saying yes or no to the timer issue, but just pointing out that there would be ways to gain stamina without pots. Thou dunno how fast/slow SR/focus are... But atleast divine fury is instant.

    Same for cures there's petals, cure, mass cure, cleanse wounds atleast. But then again, I dunno... I can't create clear opinion on either of these.
     
  28. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    Don't you play a Nervestrike/Deathstrik-er?

    Thats actually precisely the kind of template potion timers would have a huge hand in eliminating. I think that is actually the point. Tons of templates right now mortgage everything for offense (or ninjitsu animal form) and make up the difference through running and pots. Forcing a few more people to take skill investment/consumable balance more seriously is a good thing for the game.
     
  29. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Completely true, that's what my post was trying to address.

    (oh, and Strangle does +damage vs low stamina, and Pain Spike is like an AI for reducing stamina)
     
  30. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @Llewen
    My intention is not to discuss the issue of cheating any more than absolutely necessary in this thread, yet undeniably all forms of cheating must be eliminated. Don't hold your breath but at least we(once more) have had official acknowledgement of the issue and reassurance that it is being looked into.

    @WarUltima
    I disagree, poisoning would still be balanced with timers introduced. You're thinking about it the same way Kiminality did, that's to say very one-sided. There are many other ways to counter poisoning.

    My 1 LP never takes 12 GCures(when I fight enemy poisoners I never need more than 2 GCures or if I do I don't even notice as I drink them as fast as I can mush my macro), if it does it takes them faster than anything I've ever seen, which is one of the points supporting my arguements. Perhaps I haven't stressed it enough : THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO COUNTER POISON.

    I also disagree with your comparison between Mortal Wound and Infect.
    First of all I never asked that curing should be more difficult, only that potions have timers. In fact if you read carefully you will find out I would have no problem with POISONING SOMEONE WITH HIGH LEVEL POISON ACTUALLY BEING MORE DIFFICULT OR EVEN EASIER TO CURE -IF- TIMERS GET IMPLEMENTED FOR ALL POTIONS!
    Second, poisoners are investing 100.0 skill points just for a SINGLE special move.
    Third, it is a special move that has many more counters and work-arounds than Mortal Wound AND Bleed.

    I doubt I need to go on, simply read my posts again please.

    @Freelsy(And @Stupid Miner I suppose)
    Nothing else about it except timers needs re-working(if there is something, it isn't clear enough to say due to the speed of curing through potions).

    Let me try to counter your arguements concerning Total Refreshments and Stamina getting low very fast thus causing you problems :

    - Focus(it will even give you Mana back and buff Mysticism)
    - Refresh Potion(even with a timer, the first one will be instantly used. It is up to you to stay alive through SKILLS until you can use another one)
    - Divine Fury
    - Vampire Form
    - Animal Form "Ki-Rin" is a wonderfull escape form and will keep you safe from Strangle. Think about using bolas
    - Confidence(especially if you block)
    - Stamina Regeneration on items
    - Stamina Increase
    - Increasing your base DEX above merely enough to swing at maximum speed so that you can take more than 1 hit before you slow down.
    - Stamina Leech on items
    - Optionally, increasing your defensive value total(from skills, DCI and all that) so that you get hit less(..obviously).

    - Especially Vs. Strangle : REMOVE CURSE, ENCHANTED APPLE, HEALING WINDS(I believe it does remove all kind of negative effects potentially)!
    (Just FYI : Consecutive Pain Spikes will not damage you further by more than 2-3 Health and I do believe you can even remove their effect through the same methods you'd use for Strangle ETC, and if I remember right the Stamina "damage" happens only upon the initial Pain Spike and not any follow-up Pain Spikes)

    - You could even EAT something if it is THAT urgent to recover Stamina ALL THE TIME for your play-style! :D

    ...And, as has been the case with my posts here so far, I just presented here to you DIRECT counters. There are more indirect methods like simply dancing around your target or attacker until the timer(when and if one gets implemented) gets re-set. Seriously, isn't that what people already do for GHeals? rolleyes: Nothing would change practically.

    Check out in my previous posts how I compare GHeals and their timers Vs damage, Mortal Wound and Bleed to GCures and having no timers Vs Infect.
    And I believe I just showed above(complemented by what Splup suggests as well) how even Refresh potions should have timers.

    @Splup
    I understand that there's actually a lot of people who do not have a clear opinion as they lack evidence regarding this case. This is the reason why I try my best with all those text-bricks here to give a clear picture about the situation with potions(and with poisoning subsequently). There's also not a lot of people really that have poisoning either to test these things.

    For such purposes and tests there's always the Test Center, it's a very good place to begin research but I don't think it will ever replace the action going on in normal shards.

    @Locryn Finck
    I cannot really say potion timers will impact a certain template, rather a certain play-style which should NOT have been "available" and indeed must have been an over-sight on EA/M's part as I've said before, a possible fact I'm trying to point at as well. I'm referring to basing your "defense" solely on consumables, something EA/M began to correct by implementing Heal Potion timers. I would suggest to them that they finish what they began and put timers on all potions.

    You said something along the lines of ".. Take skill investment more seriously is a good thing for the game.". Well you couldn't have put it any better. And I'm playing a character that is indeed dependant solely on potions for defense! (Ninja/Poisons/Melee)

    Skill investment in Infect, skill investment in countering Infect.. Skill investment in countering Stamina dropping, skill investment in dropping Stamina(Necro/SS, fighting skill and so on).. And so on. And if it were up to me, skill investment even for EP(through Alchemy) but I won't push for that, I'm more interested in resolving the potions timers' absence. It is destabilising.
     
  31. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    *BUMP* :gun:
     
  32. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    So this thread draws no interest from EA/M? At all? No one-liners such as "It's working as intended." or "It's on the radar."? I'd really like to hear what they have to say about this, no matter what it is. :popcorn:
     
  33. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    My view on poisoning is that the whole system needs a revamp.

    Instead of skill/item vs Poison potion level, It should be Skill/item vs Poisoning skill.

    In other words Poisoning skill cap should be raised to 120.

    A Poison Potion Damage bonus based on skill points.

    Items vs Poison skill such as G cures should make a save vs skill and only get full benefit if the person has alchemy.

    Skill vs Skill is pretty much straight forward and can be easily implemented.

    I really don't care about timers. The problem is the system isn't balanced.
     
  34. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @LEFTY
    Even then, the absence of timers would only mean the person using GCures will only have to hold their "DrinkGCure" macro down for another 1 or 2 seconds. Even if a strict rule is implemented, where a player would need a corresponding minimum of points in Alchemy to even attempt to cure through potions a certain level of poison, then a player would only raise it as much as would be needed for Deadly Poison and mush their GCure macro. Not to mention that with Enhance Potions they would probably need less skill even.

    Furthermore such a change would only send this issue from one extreme to the other, with players forced to invest in a skill when all templates are currently quite cramped. For example one would then drop Poisoning or Healing or Chivalry to raise Alchemy so they can use potions effectively and I assume you can see the irony in that, given what we would be trying to achieve by changing the potion system.

    Then we have Str and Dex potions; A mage's Curse spell's stat-lowering effect becomes useless, I am under the impression that with maximum EP% even under Curse a player still has their Dex/Str above their normal values having used them.

    Lastly Refresh potions.. What's the point of lowering one's Stamina if there is no timer?

    ....And would you suggest to tie those as well to Alchemy?.. I think that would be even harsher than tying Cure/Heal potions to the skill. It's worth noting that what you suggest would open a very nasty can of worms, for example one could very well argue(should everything become completely tied to skills in a balancing effort) that Enchanted Apples should be tied to Cooking or Taste ID and Bolas to Throwing and so on.

    All this is why I still think implementing timers lies somewhere in the middle between all the solutions I've read here and they're also easy to implement and to adapt to as we have all seen. Timers do not render the consumables completely useless and do not shove aside skills completely either.
     
  35. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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  36. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I suppose it's working as intended then. I'll just go back to chain-potting in over-whelming joy and probably Soul-Stone my Poisoning. Oh well.
     
  37. ingsmsico

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    it's kinda sad that UO players have to sit and explain game systems in minute detail to get a developer team that doesn't even PvP to understand what is really going on.
     
  38. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I dont know if OP's intention is to overpower poisoning or not (any newbie poisoner can kill people that dont have pots with lethal easily)

    I agree with the Gcure pot timer but it's only fair if all or some of the following changes are made to infectious strike and DP/LP.

    1. Infectious strike has its mana cost readjusted as it was way to low. Mana cost of infectious strike is increase from 5 mana to 25 on par with other specials.

    2. Infectious strike cannot be chained within x sec window, this is to eliminate brainless LP spamming dexers for an auto win.

    3. Cure and Cleanse by Fire now has much greater chance to cure Lethal Poison and almost a guaranteed chance to cure DP and below.

    4. 100 in Poisoning skill is required to preform a LP infectious strike 25% of the time.

    5. It's no longer possible to bump Deadly poison to Lethal Poison with the Evil Omen spell.

    6. With a cooldown on Gcure pots, Gcure has 100% chance to cure a poison.
     
  39. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @WarUltima
    My intentions are not to OP Poisoning at all. This I believe I've made crystal-clear. About your suggestions;

    1: Agreed. As long as it benefits from the special Poisoning skill LMC bonus stacking with the default mana cost lowering factors like from items.

    2: Disagreed. Chaining it should be allowed under the same rules all other special moves abide to- Increased mana cost per consecutive use.
    But nothing else on top of that, as there are many ways to counter it even with a timer on GCures, also because if timers are implemented(your basic assumption for suggesting what you did, I hope) GCure potency would probably then have to increase as you suggest in 6. I am not even touching on the rest of the reasons why 2 would be un-fair. I'll mention one just for reference, namely higher skill investment than needed for performing every other special move. It's all in my previous posts. To top it off since it would seem logical to implement some of your suggestions should timers be implemented, adding 2 to all of this would once again weigh down Poisoning too much.

    3: Agreed, however the skills involved(Poisoning/Poison Potency VS [X Curing Skill used IE Magery, Mysticism, Chivalry ETC/Spell Intensity]) in the comparison should be of similar levels for this to apply. There should be mechanics similar to these to calculate a fair result for both the poisoner and the target. If something like this cannot be implemented due to coding restrictions I strongly disagree with 3.

    4: Somewhat agreed. I would suggest allowing the skill to raise to 120 with 100% chance for LP at that point for those of us willing to invest even more on this skill.

    5: Neutral towards this. Might as well agree however as it feels like Evil Omen "hi-jacks" the ability I use as a poisoner for having spent 100.0 points in a skill.

    6: Agreed if what I counter-propose about 3 is implemented.
    However I would completely disagree if, as you note in your version of 3, all spells and skills related to curing have a default 100% chance to cure poisons.

    As a side-note, wouldn't it be interesting if either alchemy, taste identification or poisoning boosted one's resistance to Infectious Strike in particular?
     
  40. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Is this topic a game-related taboo of sorts for the Devs? rolleyes: I would think potions and their usage(and perhaps a couple of the skills brought up here) concerns a large part of UO's population. :popcorn:
     
  41. CroakerTnT

    CroakerTnT Guest

    I'd definitely like to see some improvements and de-nerfs to poisoning. Having 100 skill points invested should be useful.

    At the very least, a decrease in the curing probability with high level poisons and a GCure pot timer (say 20 seconds?) should be added.

    Perhaps the efficacy of a potion should be proportional to the user's alchemy skill?

    There's many possibilities to fix it, but currently poisoning is useless except in the low levels of a champ spawn.
     
  42. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    It be interesting in Poisoning raised the Poison resist cap to 72 at 50 skill and 75 at 100 skill.
    Or if skill in Alchemy or Poisoning gave a % chance to cure poison instantly due to an acquired immunity from repeated exposure.

    Perhaps Poisoning should have more secondary benefits. Similar to how they gave GM Scribes an inherent 5% Casting Focus.
     
  43. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Doesn't seem right, it'd be like having armor's effectiveness proportional to your skill in blacksmithing.

    Alchemists make and sell potions. If only Alchemists can use the potions that they make and sell, it's not longer a crafting skill, but just another personal combat skill.
     
  44. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm sure they've noticed this, but from what they have posted I'd say they have a lot on their plates right now and this isn't at the top of the priority list yet.
     
  45. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @CroakerTNT
    A decrease in curing chances may not be needed given potions get timers identical to those of Health Potions. I am not sure if these are 20" or not, but it should be the same amount of time perhaps.

    @Stupid Miner
    Interesting suggestions although if those are implemented as things are at the moment, they would probably either not actually help with the issue I'm presenting, or in fact would make things worse.
    That is not just because people would then in all fair-ness like(and feel "forced" to) to invest on Alchemy and Poisoning to have a chance to instantly cure(when all templates are quite loaded these days) and have higher resists, but also because they would further under-power poisoning with a chance to instantly cure on top of potion spamming unless potions not having timers is resolved. I would not sacrifice 100.0 points even if they allowed me to have 85 Poison Resistance if that does not happen either way!

    If limiting potions by adding timers some-how manages to make poisoning OPed(which I highly doubt will happen, take a look at the counter-arguements), part of these suggestions may be handy to have in mind.

    In my opinion poisons do not need any enhancement other than balancing them against potions at the moment. The same kind of balance should also be sought with Stamina, DEX and STR potions if you ask me.

    By the way it's pretty accurate, how you describe the difference between a personal skill so to speak and a crafting skill, and why and which ones any character class should "need".
    Furthermore, identical to what you say about potion efficiency being proportional to Alchemy;

    If EA/M were to remove the need to have Poisoning(acknowledging it as a crafting skill officially) on a template and give full free GM benefits to all who would carry a weapon poisoned by a GM(like it was before) there would arise a multitude of balance problems. Suffice to say, poisons would then become OPed indeed. Of course poison charges would limit this somehow but certainly the results of this would be ugly. This is why the poisoning system was changed in the first place and why poisoning should remain a combat skill.

    So my point is, there are no issues with Poisoning being a personal combat skill- I don't have an issue with having poisoning for 100.0 skill points on my template to "enjoy the benefits" and in fact making it a crafting skill will only mean using skill-mule characters to boost one's main character.
    I simply have an issue with actually NOT being able to "enjoy" those benefits due to potions not having timers.

    As for Alchemy boosting potions, I would agree. But that should not mean that without this skill, potions would become weaker than they are now. If someone would invest another 100.0 points to make them even better it's their choice as it was mine in order to boost Infectious Strike. I must add, of course, I would agree only if timers would first be implemented for all potions.

    In all, this thread was not about suggestions or ideas or nerfs or any large-scale change -Although those are more than welcome and I've read many interesting things- but rather a thread about a very particular game mechanism most probably not working as intended due to over-sight, creating a disadvantage for the players.

    @Llewen
    I have noticed Cal replying to threads concerning quite random things(no intention of down-playing any fellow posters and their issues) in quite a cryptical and random way(that could be interpreted as merely teasing to keep us interested).
    As much as I'd like to believe they do pay attention, there is not much evidence of that, Producers' Letter threads(which is only logical they'd pay attention to) aside.

    If I may say so myself IMHO I've done a good effort towards pointing it out, this very simple issue of not having timers on all potions(thus rendering poisoning utterly useless and 100% replace-able along with any spell or skill one would normally use if said potions had timers), mostly on Cure and quite possibly also on Stamina(Refreshes also render useless many skills and methods by which a player can retain a high swinging speed or can run for longer if hit, and so on).

    I would dare say most of the people involved in this thread seem to acknowledge the issue as well. And on the other hand I have yet to see a valid arguement able to sustain the notion that this particular game mechanism is working as it should be. Note, I am not indirectly issuing any challenges here on this, I am only saying what I see so far. :grouphug:

    This is why I decided I'll keep bumping the thread until an explanation of sorts by EA/M shows up. :popcorn: Really, supposing I am indeed right.. If this is indeed something that will take one of appropriate EA/M team members' more than 30' to "fix" I will be surprised, I cannot believe it would be complex and time-consuming coding work to place a timer on a potion. Heals have timers already apparently.


    Oh and sorry for the text-bricks(no other way to discuss properly on the Net!) and potentially unusual way of replying to all of you in one post...!!
     
  46. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    link the cure level to the alchemy skill. bing bang boom.
    wanna insta cure a high level poison? invest some skill

    i think all pot chugging should be worked into the alchemy skill a little, still useable without alchemy of course, but more effective with the skill versus just using enhance pot mods.


    Take the alchemy skill, and link every 33 skill ( just like the enhance pot bonus) to the skill levels

    0 skill - 100% cure lesser/ 50% chance of regular
    33 skill - 100% chance of regular/lesser 50% chance of greater
    66 skill - 100% chance of regular/lesser/greater 50% chance of deadly
    GM skill - 100% chance of reuglar/lesser/greater/deadly 50% chance of lethal



    On top of this, enhance potions no longer effect pots unless you have alchemy

    So if you have 50% enhance pots, and no alchemy skill... sorry about your luck, it isn't doing much for you. Maybe your heals or stat pots will get an extra few hp, or points.

    Make it so the Enahnce pot mod, only stacks ontop fo current alchemy. so at 33 alchemy, you would now have something like 20% EP, which the 50% mod now makes this 30%. at 66 alchemy your new base would be 40%, and the mod makes this 60%. At gm, 60% base, the mod makes this 90%.

    Just my $0.02
     
  47. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @Cetric GL
    I will avoid commenting on the percentages alltogether. There is a reason for this;
    Initially, this or something similar seemed to be working solutions- Except that no matter how difficult you make it for a poison to be cured(unless it is unreasonably hard therefore making poisoning OPed), it WILL eventually be cured, and as this works now, "Eventually" translates into "Instantly".

    This is because the time it will take to eventually be cured by constantly drinking potions through macro-mushing, will be neglectible as there are no timers. Assuming EA/M would go by something similar to your suggestions but would allow even for slight chances to cure the most potent poison through potions alone, it would still occur fast enough. And EA/M would, in this case, allow even for slight chances to cure the strongest poison through potions alone because I said above : If they made it too hard to cure through potions alone poisoning would be deemed OPed within a week!! And rightfully so.

    Therefore yours and similar suggestions would solve nothing, I must say, but MOST IMPORTANTLY... Would further "over-load" players' templates if they had to invest in alchemy. Not to mention that not many players would opt to abide and do just that, poisoning would certainly become practically OPed anyway.

    The whole debate is quite interesting.
    - As a poisoner I "over-loaded" my template so much because I want to use Infectious Strike and poisons more effectively. I do not need to, I chose to. It is how I play.
    - As my target, you would not want to out-right need, forced by my choice, my play-style if you will, to invest in any skill! I wouldn't. No-one would really!
    - In fact you would naturally need, on the other hand, to be able to have certain work-arounds against my choices, these work-arounds being potions in this case. Ideally those would merely allow you to not be completely hindered by my choices, in terms of how you should shape YOUR play-style!!

    This is logical. What is not logical, is that potions currently due to not having timers, not only offer a work-around but in fact make my choice useless as a poisoner. They also make various of your choices useless, if you invested in skills that cure poisons! All sides lose so to speak.

    Adding timers, as opposed to all other solutions, will not solidly enforce anything upon players, and will give meaning to my and all poisoners' choice, at the same time. Timers are also the simplest, fastest and easiest solution, having almost no impact on the game. As said before, we have grown accustomed to Health Potions having timers, this would be the same. And I still believe it should be just like that for DEX, STR and Stamina potions.

    A relevant quote would be : "Things should be made as simple as possible, not a bit less, nor more.". In this case this means simply adding timers to cure potions and I am 99.9% certain it would, through changing as little as possible in the simplest way ever, balance it all perfectly.
     
  48. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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  49. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Really should be a Dev comment by now. :(
     
  50. Travis82

    Travis82 Guest


    I think that's a great idea, for potions. It will stop the spamming and have to make people rethink the templates. You can still cure it with arch cure, chiv, spirit speak threw it, mysticism, and healing. So I do not see a problem with this idea at all.
    Really you put all that skill and time in to poison and you get some person who can chug a cure pot and your skill is useless and he has 0 alchemy. No, I think that's wrong. With the other ways to cure it there needs to be some boundaries on potion cures with characters with no Alchemy.