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Poll: Who could accept a penalty for failing to keep your character alive?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Tanivar, Apr 15, 2011.

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Could you accept a penalty for failing to keep your character alive?

Poll closed Apr 25, 2011.
  1. Yes

    17 vote(s)
    23.0%
  2. No

    53 vote(s)
    71.6%
  3. Don't care one way or the other

    4 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    I am following another thread on this idea and I am curious how many could accept a penalty for failing to keep your character alive. Right now all getting your character killed costs players is a few monster muggings worth of gold. Having a meaningful penalty for taking crazy chances and feeding your character to a monster would add some excitment to the game. Right now it's "Ho hum, aw shoot, <yawn>, got to go find a rezzer, <yawn>"

    If you vote Yes, and have an idea for a penalty that won't give anyone to severe a case of conniptions, post it here.
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    my main problem with this is newer characters!
    As an example my best friend just started playing 2 days ago and of course I have given him money and a couple good suits etc but with all the times he has died he would have gotten disgusted and stopped if he was taking some kind of permanent loss!
    now if we are talking this only applies to people over say 500 skill points or something like this i might like the idea!
     
  3. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    There is a penalty. All unblessed and uninsured items can potentially be lost. This was more severe before item insurance and now there are more consequences dying in super mario bros. Nevertheless, the way the game is now I will be quite surprised if people are on board for this. Blame the trammel/AoS fanboys/girls.
     
  4. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Can you add a "Depends on the penalty" option? If it's something like losing skill points, I'd rather not, but I'd be amenable to other penalties.
     
  5. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    i believe your blame is misdirected who you should blame is the dry-looting psychopaths that have taken over a large segment of the PvP in Fel
     
  6. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    If people wanted this, they could make it happen right now on their own simply by turning off their item insurance or going to Siege.

    I agree that dying isn't a big deal anymore - it's more annoying to die in Team Fortress if you're an engineer and you have to rebuilding sentries/etc. than it is to die in UO. The only time I get annoyed when I die is if it's because of the EC crashing.

    Fame loss? Turn in a few bods. Insurance? Couple of dead monsters and you've made that money up.

    In EVE Online, you can lose your ship, you can lose skill points, and in general quite a bit, but I can tell you that it makes a lot of players uncomfortable to have that kind of risk in PvP, which is why such losses are so rare in MMOs these days.

    To mention another MMO that had some of its PvP inspired by UO's early days (as far as taking a major hit when dying), look at Star Wars Galaxies. They took it to the extreme, with permanent death at one point, and skill loss after that proved unpopular.

    People just don't want that in UO. If they did, there would be more people either not running with insurance, or playing Siege.
     
  7. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Yes for me.
     
  8. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    this thread and the other both fail to realize we already have this option: uninsured all your items and don't return to the body if you die there now you have a challenge happy? ... didn't think so
     
  9. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    No thanks. It's a game.
     
  10. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    The problem is they don't just want it for themselves, they want to force it on everyone.
     
  11. Phaen Grey

    Phaen Grey Lore Master
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    a 5% ability loss due to the effects of being resurrected would be agreeable to me, or 2% per death to a maximum of 10 deaths or 20%, that lasted 10 mins per death.
     
  12. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    They? Who is they?
     
  13. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    a qualified yes. if they could somehow filter out deaths that were caused by dropped connection rather than my own stupidity.
     
  14. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    You know my vote is yes. (No this post is not a troll)
    Stat loss was only to open the door to suggestion. I was hoping people would have some ideas and there'd be some debate.
     
  15. nynyve

    nynyve Guest

    Given the fact that all of my last five character deaths have been due to disconnects--no why should I accept a penalty?

    I have also seen characters die to the stupid or deliberate actions of other players--this is called griefing. It resulted in my first UO death. Punishing characters for dying will give fresh motivations for griefing.

    Characters can also lose items when they die--that is also a punishment.

    Is it somehow my fault that my internet connection died just as my character was riding past the orc fort in on the road south of Luna and that she came back dead?

    Besides we already get a penalty when our characters die--its called losing fame.

    Not to mention the fact that when did this suddenly become a game of "Staying alive?" What about exploring and doing new things? So you are saying that people's characters should be punished if they take a risk and die? This is not a great way to attract new players.
     
  16. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    Folks would lure, and cause chaos, if I died for my faulty play style maybe, but someone luring to get someone killed and knocked into this situation no, and there are folks who will lure just to grief folks, and this would cause more griefing
     
  17. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    That's a penalty that can be negated with just a few minutes on a mule and doing a few BODs. It's not much of a penalty - there are even people who sell filled BODs for people looking to buy fame.
     
  18. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    It would be awful neat if there was some sort of system that could gauge danger level of an area and give players bonuses or penalties somehow. But that would be a pretty big system, so I vote no.

    But then again I play on siege, and we do have a penalty for death.
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    We want to attract new players and keep them playing this game. Believe it or not, they do exist.

    So, no.
     
  20. LoL/Sonoma

    LoL/Sonoma Guest

    I dont understand why people want to force changes on other people when an option already exists for exactly what they are asking for. If you want tougher death penalties, play Siege.
     
  21. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The penalties are:

    • Loss of gold through insurance;
    • Potential loss of items that are not or cannot be insured;
    • Potential loss of an important goal (particularly important at events);
    • Loss of Fame;
    • Loss of time/momentum (given that this is a game, that's important);
    • Potential social costs (being made fun of, etc.).

    "Meaningful" is subjective by definition. Anything that happens, someone can deem not meaningful.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  22. Fat Midnight

    Fat Midnight Visitor

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    That list is big enough for me, and is huge for a new player.
    voted no, not worth the effort of our dev team.
     
  23. Hannes Erich

    Hannes Erich Seasoned Veteran
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    In theory, yes. In practice? Some of the time, for some of the players. Let me explain. In my other subscription MMORPG, the penalty for defeat is experience debt, which becomes more severe as you level up. It's a reasonable consequence, but that game is highly instanced. And even outside in the main world, mobs don't patrol freely across the map. This last point makes a big difference between that game and UO. UO can be extremely punishing, even for a simple lightning storm that interrupts your connection.

    But still, I want my cake, and think you should have your own cake, too. How can we both have a different cake?

    In theory, or rather in special circumstances or for particular characters, "yes." As others have already stated, severe penalties can exist for you, right now. If you choose, just avoid insuring your items. Don't run back to your corpse. Too timid? Make a new character for whom you'll raise the stakes, and continue to play it safe with already established characters. In a sandbox like UO, there's nothing wrong with "raising the bar", giving yourself increasingly difficult challenges. Sandbox games are MADE for this sort of play. There have even been small guilds formed around particular concepts. There are people in this game who delete their characters after one defeat, but who employ special rules and circumstances (such as exceptions made for disconnects, or resurrection by another player--it is a fantasy game with magic).

    In practice, or rather for everybody all of the time, "no." Many options would disappear if particular game system mechanics were instead forced. Casual players would be alienated. Creative players who enjoy inventing their own goals would not be well-served. But I can think of a couple ideas for new expansions that might be cool. How about an option for increased rewards for increased risk? This option could be consensual, per character. Allowing you to win better drops, but disallowing you from using insurance at all. Or how about an "Adventure Construction Set" if you will, allowing players to create their own dungeons or other instances, defined in part by their own rule systems?

    When you're making suggestions for UO (or any MMORPG), it's good to think of cool ways that players could have their choice of options, not just your choice. This is the difference between inclusive and exclusive gameplay. You want lots of people out there in the sandbox, playing the game in lots of different ways. When you start to wonder if all of them are even playing the same game, THEN you know you're doing something right. ;)
     
  24. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    How about one or both of these:

    For everyone: Reinsurance rates go up 10% per death after the first, resetting every 2 hours at the in-game midnight or dawn (5 AM, IIRC).

    For Reds: Give all reds a pardon to 0 counts. After said pardon, once people start going red again, have a cumulative 1% chance per 5 long-terms active of a perma-death.
     
  25. Hannes Erich

    Hannes Erich Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm almost tempted to like this idea (good gold sink), but many players may feel as though they're being punished simply for playing the game. How about this instead: players are given an option in their context menu to take an insurance hike(s) like your idea or similar, but in return they're given a higher percentage chance to win higher quality drops. This would reward increased risk with increased rewards.

    I'm sorry--and no sarcasm, I hate shooting ideas down--but in the 13 years since I opened my first account, I've never been red, been PK'd plenty of times and even *I* don't hate reds THIS much. Felucca was punishment enough for what many reds put the rest of us through, during those many years. And many reds enjoy killing each other, over and over. Taking away their game AFTER telling them to "go do that over there" sounds, uh, cruel and unusual. :)
     
  26. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Even I wouldn't vote for perma-death lol

    I want to give all these angry people an example:
    There's a blue on my shard that runs a rail to do a spawn. He turns on his script and it does the spawn for him afk. He checks back every so often so if he does die (gets Pk'd) he resses up and hits his play button again.
    Should this guy continue to be able to just res up and finish his spawns afk? Or should there be some sort of penalty for his death (other than fame loss that no one cares about lol)?

    Leaving aside all the "PAGE ON HIM" answers, do you think there should be a penalty for death in this instance?

    What about the guy who runs the script for Lady Melisande or Shimmering? Should he just be able to self res and continue or should there be something to stop him from doing so?

    It might not permanently stop them from doing it but it will deter them for however many minutes until the penalty wears off.

    I'm not suggesting anyone LOSE any items here. Just that there be some penalty for dropping dead.
     
  27. Hannes Erich

    Hannes Erich Seasoned Veteran
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    In theory, yes. In practice, it would just encourage scripters to log out until they could run their script again with no (or fewer) penalties. I know, boo-hoo for them, but that's not the point. The problem is, this would also affect PvMers who are just out doing their thing. This would encourage them to log out until they could run their dungeons again with no (or fewer) penalties. It's generally considered bad game design to give your players good reasons to log out of your game.
     
  28. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    Um I play crafters on SIEGE. I do not KEEP ALIVE. In fact keeping alive, can be REALLY BORING ON SIEGE if we are alive all the time means no one is bothering to log in that PKS people. :)

    As for penalties for failing to keep alive, not sure I wanna be penalised for being my scribe on say trammel Chesapeake either before morning coffee, when I am scribing up say...blade spirits and accidently clicky on the scroll and KILL MYSELF ! LOL

    But then again...maybe we all should be penalised for even playing UO, before our brains woke up, before our morning coffee. :)
     
  29. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    I vote no, simply because if they implemented it on other shards they'd ignore siege and push it onto us as well without even thinking about it, just like all the other big changes (though whichever dev reverted the change that made it so blues couldn't detect blues, you deserve a hug and a case of beer for that one)
     
  30. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Could not agree more. Particularly the loss of time/momentum part. It is indeed a game. Game time is limited for a lot of us, and running around to find a rez and missing out on game action feels like pretty real punishment most of the time.

    I could somehow perceive a graded insurance cost though. If I go shark diving or base jumping, my health insurance would go up as well (or not pay out at all). Smoking will cost you more for your life insurance. Perhaps diving into the abyss should also cost you 2x or 3x the amount to insure your stuff. Perhaps you should take it to the extreme and make certain areas (the abyss comes to mind) rich with useful loot, but force you to be uninsured. (Lord British Mutual just cancelled your policy for ignoring the warning sign at the entrance to the abyss, should of read the small print :) ) Graded system of risk and reward may blow some new life in certain areas. The focus has constantly been to make a bigger and better monster, perhaps level 4 shame in fel could yield powerful arties, but at the risk of dropping your imbued armor and a timed run back out to find a rez in time. I would be all over that stuff, both on my red and my blues...
     
  31. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    First Idea: I like you expansion. Almost like saying a person can risk more gold in insurance in exchange for high luck.

    Second idea: Instead of perma death, why not have the same formula for a 24 hour death.
     
  32. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I will favor this venture when there is more balance between templates.

    At present this suggestion would encourage more stringent adherance to flavor of the month templates. That is the last thing we need.
     
  33. Mongbat137

    Mongbat137 Visitor

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    Thanks for attaching a poll to the OP. It's fun seeing a few nutcases dominate the thread with how that want death penalities while a silent majority tells them to STFU.
     
  34. Bethany_lg

    Bethany_lg Journeyman
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    I think one of the concerns I would have is story arcs. I don't even know how many death robes the virtue bane dealt me in this last round. Maybe on larger shards the death toll is smaller and more evenly dispersed. But when it's the few, the proud and the stupid charging into battle....I think even less people would participate if they had to suffer penalty after penalty...making them die even faster and more frequently.
     
  35. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Personally, I would not like this. I like to PvM to the max extreme. When you attempt to solo Slasher and other higher mobs you die... a lot. But you'll never do it until you keep trying. For me, this is the ultimate part of my UO gaming. I don't see any problem with the current insurance system as a penalty for death. It isn't free and the charges can rack up fast.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  36. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Some like to have the risk of losing in a game. It makes winning that much sweeter. Does seem that that has gone out of style in the last couple of generations. Things change as time goes by.

    Maybe the next generation will have more gumption. :)
     
  37. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    So don't insure things, play only in Fel, and let those who don't support that playstyle play how they want without hoping for their day to be ruined?
     
  38. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    We have always dry looted, this isn't anything new. I'd suggest staying in trammel if it bothers you that much, it's the part of the game created for people like you :)
     
  39. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Oh, you mean the people who use legal game mechanics to play the game? Yeah, it's their fault, that makes sense.
     
  40. ChReuter

    ChReuter Guest

    Extreme...

    I always was fascinated by folks who show so much distaste for "reds". I seem to remember when the game actually still did have real pk's, it was the blue chars that were the real dishonorable ones. (Anyone remember the monster gating great lords? At least the pks didn't hide behind positive noto)

    Nonetheless, I'm very much for penalties. In my opinion, a lot of the possible penalties would only even be considered penalties because players have been spoiled so much over the past x amount of years.
     
  41. Dorinda

    Dorinda Seasoned Veteran
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    The topic mentioned is already implemented in the game for individuals who would like to partake, it is called factions.
     
  42. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    faction stat loss is a joke tbh, you die and you basically sit in your house for 15 minutes while you go make coffee or grab dinner.
     
  43. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    They should do this to tamer's pets also.... OH WAIT it is in the game just everyone exploits the game mechanics of instant pet stabling to prevent their death. :(. You're all hackers!
     
  44. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I like the idea of some type of system that places you into an alternate reality where systems change. For example: Being in a Bally Room might cause you to have -2 hit point regeneration because the Bally might give off a bad smell but whereas normally, you were fighting it outside of a dungeon, the smell would not affect you that much. So, normally hit point regeneration would not be affected.

    The problem with penalties, to death, is that, it makes the game slow down or go backwards. It's kind of like, you're pretending you never died, even though you have, several times.

    Stat loss is bad. It's like whoever invented it was a life guard at a public pool. Where if you ran, they would bench you or if you did a cannon ball to close to someone they would bench you. It made it so that anyone who wanted to do cannon balls, cry babies or can openers could not do it because you needed more than 3 steps to get that height and if a life guard saw you, they would blow the whistle or point at you. This is why it's nice to have your own pool.

    When they made the Shard of the Dead, instead of using insurance, I opted to take Chivalry and Resisting Spells. This allowed me to be completely naked. All I needed to do was buy several bucklers and a knife. This way, if I died, the only thing I could lose was a shield or a knife. In most cases, the shield and knife were not even looted.

    So, by taking away insurance or adding to the cost, you're actually limiting the game experience and making the game less fun by limiting the ability of each character.

    An example is: A mage that has 10 mana. Now, after he equips all kinds of gear, he has 250 mana. This allows the mage to take up all kinds of different spells and different magics, like, mystics and weavers. So, now rather than being able to cast one spell, the mage is able to cast a variety of spells, making the game more exciting and more unpredictable.

    So, rather than limiting, you are now expanding. I don't see why you would want to limit your experience or your ability. I would rather see the challenge greater and more tactful.

    They should add things to the dungeons and the spawns to help keep up with the challenges. For example: We have auto target nearest enemy, so why not fill the hallway with mist or smoke. You know there is a Bally in the smoke somewhere with you but you can't see it. Maybe you swing into the fog and hit nothing.

    I would rather up the stakes than take away and penalize myself. The game used to be pretty much, run to a healer, get a rez, put on all your gear, die, run to a healer, run to your body, put on all your gear, die, run to your body, missing stuff, go to your bank, replace your stuff, go back, die, lose something, have to go shopping, replace it, return, die. So, insurance was a good thing. It made it so you could continue what you were doing, rather than, taking care of the penalty.

    So, I guess, more penalty for me, would not be that great unless I could carry something to off set the penalty, like food.
     
  45. Fat Midnight

    Fat Midnight Visitor

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    I think there should be a penalty for those who can`t get there chars to wear matching colors and clothes.

    Are you still going to be wearing that purple tangle and off green cloak? ITS ALMOST MEMORIAL DAY
     
  46. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    The focus should be on increasing Challenge. Not Frustration.

    To me a more intellegent mob that requires effort and planning is more rewarding than 30 Death Robes and a couple hundred thousand in Gold.