In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.
Discussion in 'UHall' started by CatLord, Sep 21, 2008.
LBODS rewards were random skill powerscrolls and not smithing/tailoring?
Oh yeah! I would totally bot for that.
BOD system is crappy.
Guess you missed those bots at despise...
very bad idea, hope they wouldn't even consider thinking about it.
How about we just do away with the BOD system since it was totally abused, 100 of Val Hammers PHFFT
Bot at spawns are only cam to see what level its on nothing to do with completeing the spawn. Hey what happened to the Loser Smilly?:gun:
Initially I almost would say yes, but I can't. I won't say the BOD system is the best, however the scrolls are where they are for a reason.
To implant them as BOD rewards only cheapens them, removes the risks that one should take to get them - and would create such a mass of bodrunners to make scripters look cheezy,
I do agree with that, at least in regards to 120 or 115 power scrolls.
But what about 105 (and most 110) power scrolls? Most people who have free access to those scrolls at champ spawns don't even bother looting them anymore. And the new players who could use them most don't have a realistic chance at obtaining one by themselves. Instead they are left scavenging from the scrolls people drop at banks or put on vendors as an afterthought.
Why not remove the low end scrolls from champ spawns and provide them through other means (like BOD rewards) in game? Scripters wouldn't really be a problem since it isn't a very lucrative market. Giving new players a way to help advance themselves in game, and not encouraging them to rely on the leftovers of others, would provide a more rewarding game experience.
While that idea would be a nice boost for a craft it would be a bad nerf for a whole facet and that would suck right now. They shouldn't have been fel exclusive in the 1st place but it would be wrong to take them away now.
I would like to see the rewards for crafting BODs become more random though. Just make the chances increase depending on the level of the BOD. This would stop the extra crap going on there and make it more fair for the non scripters.
yup... you guys have NO clue about spawning bots... (or dont show you know about it)
I am glad I can enlighten the community about something so shady.
And why would anyone suddenly want 105 and 110 scrolls if they came from BODs?
You just want to clutter the reward table, that's fun, but we don't really need that.
Naw, keep them tied to champ spawns only, but drop them in Ilshenaur at 25-50% of the Fel drop rate. It's looong overdue.
Majority says no. Ilsh does need some kind of reward such as Alacracity (whatever), ToT style drops or something
I agree! Not a bad idea BUT the people on here will resist you Catlord because they do not want you to be a contender without spending years on developing your characters. I am against powerscroles all together but I will flex and say that to make it harder for people to make fully developed chars hurts the game more by turning away new players (which we need badly), precedes the cheapening of the powerscroles obtainment.
Based on what sampling? Folks I speak to tend to disagree (strongly) with your "majority"
I would be all for a rotation of Doom and Powerscrolls. Perhaps the rewards could switch facets somehow every now and then? I'm pretty sure most PKers would be against it.
Sooner or later the devs will understand why most newcomers leave uo...
pointless to play if you have to pay real $ or uo millions to reach the level of the maxed scrolled pvpers/veterans...
"Why play uo if there is discrimination?"
That was the question over 100 players asked me in New Haven after they understood the way uo works.
For those that do not:
UO is two pyramids...
A non-pvp one...
where the some veterans and many "merchants" script for kits, hammers, etc...
Some also script peerless...
Some script resource gathering...
Some script the gauntlet and the doom rares (inquisitor gloves...)
Basically... all that can be sold/traded... give profit... is scripted...
And the vast majority plays it fair.
then you have the pvp pyramid...
where pvpers speedhack, script... etc
Main goal is to control the source of guild income... powerscrolls/statscrolls.
Those guilds spawn, some using spawning bots... and when they fill their quota...
they move all to another shard... where PS can be sold... and here comes their profit.
And the vast majority plays it fair.
A pvp suit can cost... 100+ millions.
A pvp weapon can cost... 7+ millions.
Why would a newcomer play uo? He wont... due to discrimination.
The devs acted... one UO million is now worth under $0,70...
The lower it goes... the faster the UO leeches will depart to greener pastures...
Based on the numerous polls that have come up on stratics and other websites about this subject. Every time, the majority says no powerscrolls in trammel.
PKers are a small but vocal minority. The folks most irritated are those who control champ spawns within Fel. Yes, they're PKers, but play as groups/ guilds to ensure dominance. Bear in mind always, when reading this board, that opinion voiced include these same folks, and what you see posted does not reflect anything polled or sampled by the dev folks. Note how you never see a dev comment regarding any of these type threads.
I agree and disagree
I do think Doom arties outta stay in Doom. I'd like to see the Treasues of Tokumo brought back on a permanent basis. I'd like to see the virtue armor acquired in the old anti-virtue dungeons beefed up a little. I'd like to see armor set pieces drop more frequently on the named minors. And I'd like to see powerscrolls drop in Ilshenaur, albeit at a lower rate. In short, I think "incentive" matters. And there should be incentives everywhere, for everyone, that can not be "cornered" by a handfull of folks trying to advance self interests. Let everyone play and enjoy!
Sage observations, made many times before.
For someone just beginning, there's much to do and see without all the "power-ups." PvP is really the only "pure" exception. Having said that, there certainly comes a time when continued interest does require the "power-ups," most notably power scrolls. I was fortunate enough to participate in closed testing before publish 16, which introduced the scrolls to the game. While the genesis that ultimately occurred was predicted, it was a very high priority within dev to revitalize Felucca. Utilization rates within Fel were 5-10% of the player base in 50% of the land mass, which was insufficient for the forseeable future as additional lands could not be added quickly enough to offset the player migration away from Fel. The plan was to place the scrolls in Fel, watch/ monitor for a year or so, then adjust as needed. The adjusting never happened due to a variety of reasons, none of which were intentional. But honestly, discrimination is not a term I'd use or apply. I'm a bit concerned about the "after they understood" observation, most new players are storongly influenced by us older players, if we're leading them to early "dismay," shame on us.
I don't agree most play fair, and sincerely mean no insult whatsoever toward anyone. Being one of those who fits the been there/ done that description, I assure you that by definition, most dedicated PvP is done via cheats. Now there will be outrage over this observation, as different folks have different definitions of cheating vice necessity. If all 3d party programs (other than UOA), scripts, and hacks are accepted as "cheats," then the argument ceases and all that's left is background noise.
I really think this is merely a byproduct of duping. It is critical that dev get duping fixed. Once fixed, we need a new currency.
Right. Usually polls on this site are close. Remember however, only the now extinct MyUO site required subscriptions and game accounts in good standing. We know the Tram player base exceeds the Fel player base 10:1 based on OSI numbers (no insult intended toward either side). We know posts on stratics hit closer to 50/50. The difference itself is quite telling.
Duping and the gold farmers are definitely a big part of why there's so much gold. But this game has also been around 11 years. That's a long time for currency to be introduced into the game.
So basically what you're saying is you want to remove any risk from obtaining a PS or any cost to a newbie so that some BOD bots can screw them over instead? Let's really give those poor scripters a hand up. A great way of teaching new players - enter game, find cheats and support them.
I don't see how you think your proposed system would work better. The chances of you getting the scrolls you wanted with a BOD runner char would be such that you'd be better off just buying them anyway. And prices from scripters are still fixed, so all you're doing is changing the vendors.
Not to mention the effect on Fel, though in this case I think your idea is so flawed, there's little to worry about.
I absolutely think that Powerscrolls should be removed from Felucca, as these locations are controlled by a handful of people, most of them using cheats, ghost cams and other methods a honest player cannot compete with.
However, moving them to mindbogglingly annoying BODs might not be my first choice. I'd rather create very challenging "non-soloable" Champ Spawns in Trammel yielding Power Scroll rewards. That's the way to go! Most Trammel dungeons are unused anyways, as well as most parts of Tokuno and Malas.
I absolutely agree with that! I wish people would finally open their eyes and recognize that not their personal interests are important, but this game can only prosper and live, when NEW PLAYERS start to join UO!
A game like WoW has no problem concerning the development of chars. As a new player, you follow a guided path of quests to reach the maximum level. In between, you can pvp with comparable templates - eg. lvl 19 chars can team up to fight other lvl 19 toons. In UO, trying to fight a maxed out pvp char in fel at a champ spawn, is simply ridiculous; these guys even don't have to cheat to establish pure dominance, a result of 120 skilled templates with god like gear AND years of pvp experience. (When I joined a pvp-guild, first question was why I was running around without a crimson. Then they checked my gear and stuffed my char with equip worth around 40 mills - and this was only the "beginners suit"!).
If you don't have a level based game, it becomes very difficult to balance it between veteran players and newbs. The challenge is to develop a path that gives the newcomer a reasonable possibility to become competetive in also the end game features - eg champ spawns - in a reasonalbe amount of (game) time without making it meaningless being a veteran who invested a lot in this game.
One possibility might be changing the champ system. Let the "big champs" only drop 115/120er scrolls (if they drop any). The big champ guilds are only after them, so keep it there. Let the Ilsh champs give the 105 to 110er scrolls; doing this, you give a) new players the possibility to get their own scrolls to develop their chars, b) bring to them the "technique" how to manage a champ spawn effectively, c) do it so without the fear of being slaughtered by god like pvp-chars. Nobody will lose anything - if you want the big scrolls, you still have to be lucky in fel; and newbs are not forced into an environment they are not build for and will therefore not be frustrated.
However, there remains the unbalanced relationship between god-like vets and newbs in fel encounters. To reduce the importance of equip, reduce insurance/blessings to max. 3 items per char, when moving to felucca. This still allows your char to keep the 3 most important items, while making it less interesting in investing in maximum equipment. Alternatively, a new insurance system might help: first, remove bless deeds (spellbooks/rune books remain blessed) from equipment. Then, there will be a double fee per next insured item, starting with 500 gp. So the pyramid will read: 500/1000/2000/4000/8000/...; with 5 insured items, insurance will mount to a total of 15500 gp. Doing it this way, you still can decide to insure everything, but dying will become very costly...
Very good posting! One of the BIG problems in UO is, that there ARE god-like characters using equipment which is not available to other experienced veteran players. Players should be rewarded for their experience, the risk they take and their team-work. However, no player should be able to CONTROL the possession of items and thus control the market and the economy.
To my opinion, 120 skill scrolls are overrated. However, all Powerscrolls should go out of Felucca (EA could also try to fix the issues like ghost-cams, speed-hacks etc., but players will always find ways to cheat the system, especially in Felucca).
Changing insurance fees wouldn't change a thing, cause those people controlling the spawns have enough gold to never have to worry about any fees anymore, no matter how high they are.
Make rare items more available to experienced and brave players, and one part of the overpriced item-madness will be solved.
I thought I made my point clearly the first time, but I guess not.
An online game isn't stagnant. As the majority of characters become veterans, game mechanics and reward structures that were once useful become dated and unused.
What has happened with 105 and 110 power scrolls is a great example of this. On most production shards, champ spawns are controlled by a very small percentage of the playerbase. These players are geared to ridiculous levels, and have zero use for the low-end power scrolls.
But who could use 105 and 110s? New players. What realistic chance do new players have of getting those scrolls by themselves? Slim to none. So the players who need the items the most have no choice but to rely on the castoffs of the powerful. That doesn't sound like something you would put on the box of an MMORPG.
In response to the concerns of cluttering the reward table, the BOD system is another good example of a system that has become dated. Who actually turns in BODs for the 105 or 110 smithing/tailoring scrolls anymore? Making it a random 105/110 scroll for those specific rewards wouldn't cause any more clutter to the reward table. But it would give new players a way to help themselves.
This is a lame excuse used by new players that expect to have things handed to them instead of going out and earning them. I blame this expectation on games like WoW, where "uber" items are handed out by doing quests, or running fairly easy 5 man instanced dungeons over and over again until the piece you want drops.
Anyone that sets a goal to make a lot of gold in UO will make it if they put the effort toward that end. If not, they'll whine and cry and point to others and say "but he's got one, why don't I have one".
While working a full time job (60-70 hrs/week, 6 days/week) I'd made my first 100mil in UO within the first few months of playing.
It's not hard to do if that's your goal, but just like the real world, you actually have to set the goal, then go after it. It won't be handed to you.
I do, as does any Smith/Tailor that runs a vendor selling their wares.
Contrary to popular opinion, these scrolls do sell. They actually sell fast enough that I can't get a backstock of them built up.
We are talking about in general, not just related to Spring Cleaning? You might have had some success on Pacific, but from what I have seen on LS, trying to sell anything under a 115 is not a good use of time.
A few months ago before Spring Cleaning, I gave some leftover smith/tailor scrolls to a guildmate who had a vendor at a popular mall. The 105s wouldn't sell at all, and even remained on the vendor for three days when marked as free. The 110s didn't do much better.
I didn't sell any during Spring Cleaning having turned them all in myself for points. I've sold out of everything from 105's to 115's, most of them on the same day they were put on the vendor.
I came back to UO six weeks ago or so after 2-3 years off. I would be in favor of bringing power scrolls to Ilsh for the following reasons...
My recollection is that PSs were originally put in fel as a strategy to bring blues to fel. At the beginning it worked wonderfully. I remember large groups of blues at champ spawns, and rarely did reds totally break down a spawn. There was some excitement to get out of there without having your scrolls stolen or getting PKd in the star room, but I recall being able to participate in the events and got some scrolls most times. These weren't guild events (some of those happened too), but just a buncha blues working together (sort of, hehe) to get scrolls for themselves and fight off the reds that might show. When someone popped the harrower, the call would go out and we'd all go to help, in hopes of reward (and for the fun of it).
Coming back (to LS shard) what I see is very different. groups of reds control the spawn of scrolls. I dont see any larger scale events with a lot of blues at a champ spawn. No one is at the brit bank anymore to spread the word. I havent heard of harrower being popped once by blues on our shard since I returned to play. Sometimes our small guild starts a spawn at an odd time in order to reduce the risk we get raided. A small percentage of the time we complete a champ encounter. Most times, tho, we get raided. If we beat the first few that attack (small numbers here: 3-5 blues on 2 reds), the reds come back with more.
Three years ago there were many vendors with a few PSs on em. Now there are a few vendors with many PSs on them. One small group of players profits greatly because the main dynamics of the social system that undergirded champ spawns has changed. The primary design strategy of bringing large numbers of blues to fel no longer works. Thats why I'm in favor of having champ spawns in Ilsh drop scrolls (or having them drop off the stronger mobs at the same rate as paragon chests. I'd be in favor of that, too).
I disagree on that one. I personally know players who tried UO (my brother, for example) and who actually spent a lot of time (a few months) in game. They stopped playing exactly because of above reason. Even after months of playing, you're still far from being able to remotely compete with the people controlling champ spawns.
I myself could compete in theory (it took me 9 months and the help of a lot of good friends to equip myself). But competition fails at the point where the enemy uses speed hacks to escape and ghost cams to overrun a few adventurers with a dozend of uber-equipped reds.
If EA would share your prejudice against new players, UO would be doomed. Above all, this game needs new players! And the situation in Felucca isn't helping anybody except a handful of people who find a ganking-playstyle interesting. (There are rare exceptions!)
Letting a small group of people using questionable methods control the in-game economy is a severe mistake!
-> Power Scrolls should go to Trammel!
You don't have to run the spawns to get the scrolls. It's actually much easier and more time efficient to get the gold and buy the ones you want.
I seldom disagree with you, on this one I do. What you describe is rewarding antisocial behavior with your time and effort. And with scrolls, integral to higher level play, you reward it at the pinnacle of the spawn itself, which you've spent your time running up, or, you reward it with your gold, which you've spent your time running up.
New players doing LBODs for powerscrolls? rolleyes:
Ok, currently, evil meany selfish PvPers drop 105 and 110 ps on the ground at the bank for new players to pick them up. Players shops are full of unsold 105 and 110 ps. And now you're suggesting that new players should enter the BOD system madness to get them? How is it improving the game?
Do you tell new players to get several accounts to run for BODs? :gun:
Here is what I said:
As in, remove the 105 and 110 scrolls from champ spawns entirely. There wouldn't be such a surplus of scrolls if they weren't constantly provided to people who didn't need them.
Also note that I never said that BOD rewards were the only solution to providing low-level scrolls to the people who need them. I just expanded upon the BOD example to stay on topic.
Some people might not think that this is all that big of a deal (as in, who cares in what way new players get scrolls), but I would argue that it is signficant.
The way things are, new players who want to earn their way to the top (and who are usually subscribers for a long time) are turned off to the game. There isn't a discernable path from newbie to veteran that doesn't heavily rely on the assistance of others.
The people who are attracted to the possibility of quickly getting to the top (through any means necessary) are the same people who easily get bored and jump to the next game once the novelty wears off.
Constantly catering to the short-term crowd is a very risky long-term business strategy.
Like Harb said, 120 scrolls are the top of the mountain as far as raising skills. But with the current game landscape, there isn't a way for most players to climb that mountain themselves.
Sure, you can go kill the same low level monster thousands of times to get a scroll. But that's like walking up the first 10 feet of Everest a couple thousand times and then getting a certificate saying you effectively reached the peak. It's much more monotonous and much less rewarding than reaching the summit yourself.
I see 120 Scrolls in UO as similar to the set armor pieces in WoW. Any player can build their character's skills up, but there's no way they're going to be able to compete with players that have been playing the game since it came out, and have had the time to go out and get what's needed to build full suits of set armor, even if they're the same level.
I can think of a couple of ways for any player with no more than GM skills to make 1 mil per day, and that with only playing a few hours a day. It's not that difficult to do, and if there's an event going on, it's even easier.
Excuse me..... Antisocial behavior?
WTF are you talking about.
Large groups of Fel players who fight together in a coordinated fashion to achieve a common goal.......or the lone Tram player who yells at everyone and claims "This is my spot, don't kill my monsters".
Which group is really the antisocial group????
Stop calling people who enjoy PvP antisocial psychopaths, it's complete BS.
Well, antisocial sounds harsh. Let me put it this way:
Players who team up to kill a group of adventurers act according to the game rules.
Players who use ghost cams to spy on champ spawns bend the game rules to a questionable extent.
Players who use speed hacks and other cheats to have an advantage in PvP break the game rules.
Obviously, only the first is tolerable.
As we all know, all three things happen regularly in Felucca, especially when it comes to Champion Spawn raids.
Any more questions?
Seriously, if players took time to get to know the PvP crowd on their shard, they'd find some decent sorts out there who could give them a good deal on scrolls. I despise cheats, I'm not a PvPer, yet I got excellent deals from really friendly civilised sorts who do the champs legally. I suck at PvP, I'm one of the slowest gold hoarders, yet I manage perfectly. Which says to me that PS are within anyone's grasp if they just get off their backside and do something. By doing something I mean something other than complain on Uhall they they'd rather these things arrived in Tram.
And if anyone really doesn't want the PvPers to benefit from their antics, I'd suggest building a thief and robbing the gits. There are ways for a non PvPer to get these things with a wee bit of savvy.
We did something...
We gave 105s when they were rare and new...
Then we moved to 110s... and 115s...
Later we got all the 120s everyone needed...
The events were posted here on the stratics news and got "special" EA attendance...
Now, four years later... it all went down hill... and a few control UO.
We can be savvy or we can claim equal rights to all subscribers...
the vast majority that doesnt cheat...
Sorry... I have to refute this, especially the part about level 19 characters teaming up. WoW suffers from the same thing UO does in this regard. The vast majority of those level 19s you see in the Battlegrounds are twinked characters played by veterans. Take a good look at their gear. They are maxed with blue armor and weapons. Being a new player and going in there is asking to die, plain and simple.
I'm didn't mean to suggest that new players should be able to waltz in and be competitive with established veterans. Of course veterans should have some inherent advantage from the effort they have invested in the game.
I'm just saying that there should be a game mechanism that allows new players to bridge the gap without always depending on the efforts of those veterans they are trying to catch. Because for a new player wanting to work independently, it's a Catch-22 situation: to be able to get the the scrolls needed to raise your skills, you need to be already scrolled out to have a chance at champ spawns.
We probably have to agree to disagree on this point. Personally, I feel that there shouldn't be many high-level items in game that have to be nickel and dimed from someone else just because there isn't a feasible way to obtain the item individually. Even if I could make a mint's worth of nickels and dimes per day, it just isn't as rewarding (from a gameplay standpoint) for me if I'm effectively limited to purchasing a big ticket item from someone else.
I would add to that:
Most PvM type people (Trammel let us say) would tend to follow the Rules.
Most PKr's (Felucca let us say) Do not recognize that rules exist and there for it never occurs to them to follow them (how does one follow something one does not recognize as existing).
That the number of posters on all UO messages board combined, represent a statistically insignificant number of the total UO subscribers.
It is my opinion, that MAYBE one in 100 times, the given demographic of the posting population MAY be at the MOST, in the same ball park as the total UO population, the other times, the demographics are probably not even on the same planet.
My recollection is that we were told "You will never have to have a powerscroll to compete"
Then they ran out and nerfed mages to the point a GM mage cannot reliably cast an 8th circle spell, without going at least to 110. And the same with warrior temps as well. Put em all on the Ilsh spawns and let em drop! A select few guilds should not control a resource this vast and important to the economy.
And to those who say, if ya don't like the pvp and spawn pvp, just buy em? That's the whole problem right there...Monopolies, and the champ controlling guilds getting rich because the majority of the playerbase is forced to give them millions of gps (which are later sold for $) in order to have a chance of success, even in trammel.
How many years have those players sheered the vast majority of the UO player base?
Surely, I'll explain. 1) I did not say people who enjoy PvP exibit antisocial behavior, or that it is a "psychopathic" style of play. I enjoy PvP sans cheats. 2) I did say that red "raiding parties" at a champ spawn is an antisocial behavior. The term is the one used for "red" play, it's not something I "made up." And it's actually a weak, bravodous form of antisocial behavior. A group of players are engaged with a high threat PvM spawn, spread out, and in most cases insufficient in size to include a large guard force. The "raiding party," a vogue term used by some to glamorize this style of play, enters the scene at the culmination of the spawn. This "gank squad," a more appropriate term, is PvP tailored and focused, unengaged by spawn, and concentrated. The conclusion is a single possible outcome. Fair? Nope. And no other option exists for the scrolls. It's gone on far too long.