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Proposal for Honor and Justice Virtues

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Now that arenas are (it would seem) finally going in, it's the right time to pitch an idea I had a little while ago.

    • The Blurb Version
    In brief I think that the Honor Virtue should be able to gained through PvP, and Justice should be able to gained by PvM.

    • More Detail
    Specifically, I want to propose the following.

    A certain amount of Honor points, roughly equivalent to killing, say, a balron, should be gained from victory in a duel in one of the arenas. This proposal would be similar in outline form the original Honor Proposal from almost exactly 10 years ago.

    Half of that could be gained from participating in a duel, and losing.

    And I think that Justice should be gained from beefed up, like over Executioner-level, NPCs that will spawn in brigand camps and the Dungeon Wrong. They can spawn in Mini-Champ Style spawns (brigands; harder brigands; executioners; Justice-gaining champ), and their loot shouldn't be any better than normal Executioners (because they would exist almost solely to get the Justice Virtue from).

    • The Explanation
    Why do I propose this?

    As it currently stands, the other Virtues have a Trammel/Felucca, PvM/PvP balance that strikes me as fair, and Justice and Honor don't. As it currently stands, Justice is exclusive to Fel and PvP and Honor, while not exclusive to PvM and Trammel, greatly favors a form of PvM that doesn't really belong to Fel the way that, say, champ spawn PvM (for Valor) does.

    Valor can be gained in either facet and, while it's technically gained from PvM exclusively, in Fel at least PvP tends to conflate around champ spawns and champ spawn areas. Thus to get Valor in Fel you must be at considerable risk, or opportunity if you will, for random PvP.

    However you can also go to various places in the Trammel rules facets and gain Valor.

    Compassion? Escorts exist in Trammel, Felucca, and at least one even in Ilshenar.

    Stolen items for Honesty exist in Trammel and Felucca.

    Sacrifice comes from Fame; an appropriate level of Fame can be obtained, and Fame can also be sacrificed, in every facet.

    Justice, however, can currently only be gained by PvP, and Honor only by a kind of PvM that can be found in Fel, but it's pretty scarce: High-end monsters that can be fought solo.

    The 3 most convenient monsters to gain Honor from are, in my judgement, succubi (which to my knowledge can't be found in Fel at all outside of the Abyss champ spawn), balrons (which can be found in Fel but are scarce), and Miasma (not found in Fel at all). There's also Gnaw (Ilsh exclusive, like Miasma). I'm sure there's others, and maybe even 1 or 2 in Fel that I've forgotten about, but the point is.....Honor doesn't "belong" to Fel like it could if you could also get it from arena fights.

    As to Justice....Not only do you have to PvP, which most players clearly don't want to do judging by the scanty populations in Felucca, but you have to not only win, but land the kill shot. I cannot count the number of times a red has killed himself rather than know that a Trammie like me gets Justice off of him.

    The PvP-exclusive nature of Justice ensures that those most interested in this aspect of the Ultima environment will never be able to experience it.

    Surely one could quite reasonably argue that Justice's associated power is Fel-exclusive, so gaining it should also be Fel-exclusive. That's not an unreasonable argument but it's countered easily as well. Under present rules, you can gain Justice simply by killing a red friend, or better yet a group of them. While that must occur in Fel I guess, it's also not quite in the PvP-centric spirit that the Justice Virtue system was conceived in. Further, how long has it been since the "paint for protection" days, and the days when the purpose of the Virtue, to reward those who guard from reds at spawn as well as those who fight the boss? For years now the more common tactic has been to have your Justice Protector be as far away from the fight as possible. While I don't know if the old practice of having the Protector hanging out in the Delucia Inn is still done, the fact that this practice existed at all shows how far from the original intent Justice has gone.

    So, put Justice in Trammel, and put Honor in Felucca.

    And let both sets of players have it both ways.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Honor used to be able to be both used and gained in pvp, it was disabled when SE launched due to the bushido damage bonus.

    Interesting though for justice, but that sounds like it would make it way easy to just grind a few mobs for knight, which (while true that people killing themselves now does just the same) makes the virtue nothing more than another pure pvm one. (unless the mobs are on par with slasher or something like that, there would no longer be a point killing reds to gain justice, as it would be fast to camp that spawn till knight)
     
  3. Gnoopey

    Gnoopey Adventurer
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    Succubi can also be found in Felucca's Sanctuary and the palace of Paroxysmus in Felucca T2A. There's even a named succubus (Szavetra) in Sanctuary. While the named monsters in Fel's blighted grove are another way to 'easily' farm honor. ;-)
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Forgot about Sanctuary and the Grove.

    Either way hopefully you see the argument.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Of course there is little point in killing reds in any meaningful way to gain Justice now given that, as you admitted, one can just kill one's friends to gain Justice. And Justice hasn't been used as I recall it being intended (to reward guards with scrolls as well as rewarding monster-fighters with scrolls) for years now. It's been a way to get extra scrolls and it benefits you to have your Protector as far away from the spawn as game mechanics will allow.

    Why not give it as well to those who would use it for RP Purposes?

    The monster I had in-mind is more analogous to an Abyss mini-champ spawn boss than the Slasher. I wouldn't say that any PKer is on par with Slasher in terms of difficulty. While the Slasher can't call in his guild and can't exploit the Fire/Serp's Hold border (as both I and many of my most-frequent opponents to rather often), it also can't be redlined in 3 or 4 well-positioned hits.

    I doubt any real PvPer would take my method to gain Justice over killing reds. I know, were I a full-time PvPer, I sure as Hell wouldn't.

    -Galen's player
     
  6. Gnoopey

    Gnoopey Adventurer
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    I love to 'nit pick' ;-) Of course I agree with your arguments! Would be nice to have 'adusted' virtues. The changes we recently got are really horrible. Your proposals are good and make sense for me.
     
  7. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest

    Galen i understand your frustration with justice. You have trouble finding a red to fight and the ones you do find you find 15 of them. The random 1v1 encounter has pretty much disappeared or is now all too infrequent to maintain a justice level that helps at all especially with the new decay when used lol. Yes it is imperfect and alot of people resort to killing friends (especially now with decay), but putting it in tram basically has no place as it has no use in tram (at least in my opinion).
    To answer your question about scrolls, yes in t2a i have seen scrolls make a pretty large jump sometimes, but seperating the protector at a great distance is never a practice an intelligent group makes.

    I personally hate working honor, its too slow, but at the same time. im greatful, i dont want everyone being knight of honor.

    Btw i will never suicide so you cant get justice on my red, ive never heard about anyone suiciding on a red, just on blues.
     
  8. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    If you talking about adding another way to gain in honor and justice I am all for it. If its simply a flat change... well I am not sure how much better that would be. I might just be confused could you clear that up for me?
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    On GL it's mostly just been that I almost always run alone.

    I don't expect to kill anyone when I'm running alone. I'm PvPing mostly just to keep my hand in. I may not like PvP much but I don't ever want to entirely lose my PvP legs if I can possibly help it.

    It used to be routine to have a red kill himself on me. I freely admit, though, this was years ago.

    -Galen's player
     
  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Thank you, and thank you for making me remember Sanctuary and Proxy's Palace.

    For that matter, at Proxy's Palace, I could see someone getting some good honor off of the Putrifier, especially on a Sampire.

    -Galen's player