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Publish 97: Mages

Discussion in 'UHall' started by BrianFreud, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    I'm posting this separately, so it can't get buried under all the tamer-related posts. :p

    As I mentioned in the other thread, while tamers and their pets have all the attention at the moment in Pub 97, it seems summons have been forgotten.

    For mages, other than EV, the 8th level summons have been pretty worthless for, well, nearly forever. Air Elemental, Daemon, Earth Elemental, Fire Elemental, and Water Elemental are 5/8ths of the top level spells, but those summons last a pretty short time (max of 8 minutes), and are so weak as to be worthless. EV used to be far more useful - but then control slots came in, and we were limited to only 2 of them at a time. EVs are ok powerful, but max out at 90 seconds in duration, doing only 0 to 26 damage per hit - and with only ~140 HP, they tend to get 'killed' long before their 90 seconds is up when they're up against anything stronger than a Stone Harpy.

    As for the lower level mage spells, Summon Creature is a worthless level **5** spell - it doesn't matter what the random animal is, they're all weak and useless, other than for helping grow a plague beast. :p Blade Spirits are occasionally useful, but the take forever to summon and are pretty weak; their only benefit is they're harder to dispell. Yet too many mobs have auto-dispell now, and they make BS poof just as easily as EVs.

    For Necros, there's Animate Dead (pretty much worthless except for 'spoiling' corpses) and Vengeful Spirit. Revenants have 50-100% more HP than EVs, twice the attack power, teleporting abilities, and are persistent at following their prey, though at a cost of 3 slots. I don't see that spell/them used much, but they look at least somewhat decent.... at least until you compare a Revenant to even the lowest scoring freshly tamed Cu Sidhe.

    I don't play a SW, but Summon Fey and Summon Fiend seem to be pretty useless as well; the only SW summon that's occasionally useful seems to be Nature's Fury. (And I've heard basically nothing about the Summon Reaper mastery skill...)

    Then there's Mysticism, which I also don't personally use. It has Nether Cyclone and Rising Colosus. I don't see Mystics using the former much, but RCs seem to dominate in terms of powerful summons, at least at events... though they're limited to only 60 seconds. Even then, though, they still can't compare to a freshly tamed Cu.

     Energy VortexRevenantRising ColossusCu Sidhe
    Strength200401-5007801200 - 1225
    HP140241-3004701010 - 1275
    SkillsNoneTeleport to prey, persistent followerNone I thinkBleed attack, can heal itself, can heal owner
    (And this is still ignoring anything summoned via a talisman of summoning, though they're all kind of weak. :p)

    @Kyronix, @Bleak, and @Mesanna, so far, all the focus for the "pet revamp" seems to be on tamers. But summons are pretty much the same - and the spells to summon them dominate the highest level spells for casters. Even before the revamp, they just don't compare, especially for mages, where our highest level summons may have been powerful 20 years ago, but today simply don't compare to even the summons from other branches of magic, let alone tamers' pets.

    I'd suggest five things that could improve the situation.

    First, buff up the summons, especially BS, EV, summoned Revenants, summoned Imps, and summoned fey, so they're at least closer in power to basic fresh tames. This is a top level spell; the creature summoned should reflect it.

    Second, take away the summon duration, or tie it into something like mana. For example, let's say I have 120 Focus & Med, and 150 Int, with 20 MR on my suit. My passive MR is roughly 3.3 per second. If EVs cost .5 mana per second to maintain, and I have 2, theoretically I can keep them up indefinitely, but I also exhaust my mana pool faster. That's a reasonable tradeoff. (At that kind of ongoing mana cost, it might even make sense to drop the # of control slots on summons down to 1, so I can have more of them, at a higher ongoing mana cost.) This also would give summoners a reason to use the dispel spell on their own summons, which I rarely currently have reason to do.

    Third, let us actually have at least some influence on summons' targets. The summoned elements seem to have some control given, but BS, EV, etc are pretty much cast and forget; they don't pay any attention to "all kill".

    Fourth,since summons are all theoretically tied into the caster's mind, consider giving summons a "Summons" type pack instinct.

    Last, with specific regard to pub 97, let me develop my summons, the same way tamers develop their pets. If I decide to run around with a summoned demon, EV, water ele, etc, let me build him up (and built-up points persist for a given summon type/spell across different times they're summoned). Have points build up by summon type any time they're summoned and attacking. Give me a reason to try out the newly buffed up 8th level summons outside of EVs. The only difference from tamers' pets would be that while they can have multiple dragons with different skills, I only have the one summon demon spell, so can only really have one developed demon "skillset" at a time, so also give me a way to change the points allocation on a given summon type - maybe at a cost of some gold, or a *temporary* (1 hour?) cooldown-type of drop in stats, or something like that. Just make it not totally painful, so if today I want to use a summoned demon who's strong in "fire powers", and next week I want to use one that strong in "cold powers", I'm not totally screwed or locked in to an unchangeable choice, forever, for a particular summon type.



    Consider this my suggestion; I'm open to other ways to make it so summons (and esp pure mages :p) don't continue to be made comparatively weaker.
     
    #1 BrianFreud, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  2. Pawain

    Pawain Grand Inquisitor
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    I agree. EVs are instantly killed by many things. RCs are decent and you get a bonus with mysticism mastery. I would be fine with the RCs getting more strength and 2 EVs should be equal to an RC. Give summons better defense.

    I think you are using untamed Cu Sidhe values. They do work great when you provoke them on swoop or changelings.

    I don't agree that we should have to work up summons tho. You can cast spells while they fight. Mage tamers spend a lot of time healing so they are not able to cast as often.
     
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  3. railshot

    railshot Sage
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    Improving summons might be a very difficult balancing act.
    In PvE currently pretty much the only reason to have Mysticism is RCs. In almost everything except for summons, magery is superior to Mysticism. If you boost magery summons to the level of RCs, Mysticism will become a dead skill outside of PvP. So I think any Magery revamp would need a mysticism revamp as well.

    Also IMO summons should be inferior to real pets. With summons you have the freedom to lob them at the enemy from afar and don't need to worry about vetting.
     
  4. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Problem with summons is the same problems I have with using peacemaking...

    EV's and such are dispelled nearly as soon as you cast them... especially by everything relevant to you wanting something to take the heat off you and needing a summon for...

    Peacemaking is just as useless ...... usually by the time you finish "playing" the peacing song... the mob is no longer peaced... then you have to wait another 8 to 10 seconds to peace it again... and it will be instantly back on you as soon as your song is done... even a 4x 120 bard... I would think with that much invested in barding peacemaking ought to last a tad bit longer... even with 120 peacing and music it ought to last more than 2 seconds... And area peace is a JOKE... 9 times out of 10 anything in the area isn't even phased by area peace... And if you are a tamer and trying to peace something like a Dragon or Nightmare or what have you... more often than not after you peace the thing you have to wait 8 to 10 seconds to try to tame and by then the peace has worn off..... completely and utterly USELESS waste of time. The skill as it is anymore is hardly worth investing points in... save for the mastery..... and IMO that's just wrong.


    As for you saying that Mysticism isn't good for anything besides RC... I happen to like Mysticism more than Magery... at least sleeping mobs works 200X better than peacing them! Unless of course you want to tame them... But things tend to stay asleep better than they stay peaced. And many of the mysticism spells have area of effect... which is nice...

    Magery could use more area spells... and cold spells....

    Mysicism could use gate, recall and mark abilities...

    Spellweaving could too.
     
  5. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    I don't see it as "have to"; rather "please let us also be able to".

    And I agree that magic spells of all types could use some love; I'm just focusing on the summon spells both because they are the majority of the highest level spells, and because they're the only ones really relevant to "pet revamp"... The rest I guess we'll have to wait for some future "magic revamp" pub. :p
     
  6. petemage

    petemage Lore Keeper

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    Yep, I read that too but first felt like it's a bit off-topic here. There is no useful physical damage spell in magery, while mysticism has that. Cleansing winds heals + removes most of poisons. Mass sleep is totally absent in magery. Stone form for poison immunity.

    It's a shame so many people never seem to look at the whole set of spells beyond the obvious RC. Magery and Mysticism actually complement each other and none can be replaced by the other.

    My T-Hunter is basically a Mysticism/Weaver/Stealther. It can solo level 7 maps with that set of spells. I still keep like 40 magery to recall around though. Wish Mysticism had something there too :/
     
  7. petemage

    petemage Lore Keeper

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    While there's life, there is hope? :D Pet revamp is already on TC, and we know what that means. Not to crush some hopes, but I'm 100% certain the "summon revamp" is also a thing for some future pub ;)
     
  8. railshot

    railshot Sage
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    I don't find Peacemaking nearly as bad as you describe it. I use area peace only though, because targeted one fails too much.
    IMO, if there was only one spell I had to port from Magery to Mysticism, it would be invis. I get around without recalls. Invis is indispensable in PvE for me. Mysticism is also somewhat limited in damage types compared to Magery.
     
  9. petemage

    petemage Lore Keeper

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    But then the only viable spells for direct damage are fire and energy damage (FS/fireball, ebolts). Physical, cold and poison damage spells are so weak, you hardly see anyone use them (talking PvE).
    Mysticism has a great physical damage spell (also mana-wise) and this awesome cold area damage spell.

    Perfect match imho. For the invis part i highly recommend to at least give mass sleep with target on yourself a try. It uses less mana and will just make everything like 5 or 10 tiles around you freeze. I absolutely love it though I still have invis ready for backup as well :)
     
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  10. Laura_Gold

    Laura_Gold Journeyman
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    If we're going completely off topic here, then I'd like a few more useful Ninjitsu spells that don't require
    o hiding
    o stealth
    o running / taking steps (seriously, what's up with that? The CHARACTER has dexterity because the PLAYER doesn't.)
    ...and please take off the shield restriction for all the ninja moves that have that restriction.
    ...and please make it so ninja forms don't undo when logging in. You know necromancy forms don't undo when logging in, right?

    If we're not going completely off topic here, then I think "Summon Fiend" should summon something more powerful than imps, which don't appear to be more useful than the non-karma-killing "summon fey."

    ...and I'll agree that the "animate dead" things should obey pet commands.
     
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  11. Eärendil

    Eärendil Legendary Mall Santa
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    The majority of my chars uses SW or Mysticism. You are right, Brian, Magery summons need some love. But you defo should try SW or Mystic. Heck, I cant even imagine how you play this game without these 2 fantastic schools of spellcasting. They are way more useful than you describe it. If they had Invis and Recall I wouldnt even use Magery.
     
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  12. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    PvM Spellcasting needs more love not only from improved summons, but also with spell mana and life leeching.
    As a dexxer, I can pretty much spam my special attacks non-stop because I am always leeching mana. Why shouldn't spellcasters be able to do something similar?
    Wraith form only works for so long to make up for that. Good luck leeching mana from Navrey in wraith form for one...
     
  13. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    I really disagree with most everything in this thread and think a lot of it is down to not knowing how/when to use things. The only bit I really agree on is that they could do with a slight boost for being 8th circle. But they are far from useless.

    -You use 2 EV's when the thing you're fighting is weak to energy.
    -You use 2 Earth Elementals when it is weak to physical, they are also harder to dispel.
    -You use a Fire Elemental when it is weak to fire.
    -You use 2 Air Elementals whenyou are fighting something that has high melee damage as they will keep away from it and dump spells. Especially useful when combined with Necro for Corpse Skin.
    -Water Elemental is pretty useless.
    -Summon Demon has a use mainly in PvP.
    -Although it's a fairly trivial use at 5th circle Summon Creature also has a purpose. For a start you can summon a horse should you need one. But you also have disposable creatures for monsters to target, places where this is viable include killing the Putrifier when keying for Paroxysmus', you can have the Putrifier target the creature out of range of spells while you nip round the wall and loot the spleen/check the corpse.
    -All of the Mage summons apart from EV and BS are controllable.

    -Animate Dead take no control slots, so you can still have a full set of followers from pets/summons on top of their damage.
    -Command Undead is very powerful.

    -Summon Fey is basically the same purpose as Air Elementals only you have 5 casters instead of 2. They are also very good at distraction. Try them out in the Flesh Renderer's room in Doom. They take the aggro a lot, they may die one hit, but it doesn't matter as you can pretty much instant re-summon the whole lot in one cast.
    -The purpose of Fey was supposed to be 5x meleers though they aren't that great.
    -Both the Spellweaving Masteries are fantastic. Summon Reaper is excellent for distraction with it's area damage and can cast Word Of Death.

    -Mysticism is a power house of defense in PvM, Stone Form is fantastic especially on Mystic/Dexxer hybrids as you can't have your bandage speed lowered, or blocked with Poison. Mass Sleep, Healing Stone, Cleansing Wind and the ability to Spell Trigger a Cleansing Wind for instant use in an emergency are all excellent and make it pretty hard to die. Enchant synergises perfectly with dexxeer hybrids. I think you meant Animated Weapon rather than Nether Cyclone, I haven't used it so don't really know, I imagine it's not much different from Blade Spirit. But Colossus, is basically a summonable Greater Dragon that AI's and casts Mysticism spells.

    I don't think trainable is a viable option for summons as they are meant to be temporary. Though (and I haven't had time to test/post about it yet) I do think the requirements for trainable pets should include Tame/Lore AND Vet requirements else certain effects should be disabled, mainly from a PvP balance point of view.
     
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  14. Sweetpeez

    Sweetpeez Visitor

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    I agree also magery needs to be shown some love too - it's time. But def would not want to have to train summons. I don't have a tamer because I simply cannot stand it and I would hate to have to tame a summons to make it worthwhile. Evs truly need to be buffed because they are fairly pointless considering they are supposed to be one of magery's best spells. I am a mage/ mystic/ spellweaver and 99% of the time I only summon Rcs. (Unless I'm fishing - then I cast a water elly to fight off the serpents I fish up. They kill them fairly quick and last quite a while.)

    Mystic and Spellweaving do need travel spells. I would love for my bard to have all 4 bard skills with only sw and mediation but I need a travel method and using charges constantly from a runebook is a sucky way to travel. Spellweaving also needs a heal/cure spell. It would also be nice if you could walk a few steps away from the monster before you use gift of life to rez yourself - getting insta killed upon rezing does'nt really help all that much.
     
  15. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    Oh, I'm not saying that SW, Mystic, or Necro don't have benefits. I just happen to play a pure mage... and while they've progressively buffed up each new spellcaster class as they've added them, they've only really nerfed the older types - magery is far weaker than Mystic, from direct damage spells to summons - and with this pet revamp especially, summoned "pets" seem to have been completely forgotten, which isn't directly a mage nerf, but it does further unbalance the scales towards dexers and tamers, and away from mages.
     
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  16. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    "Harder to dispell" is meaningless given how many mobs now have auto-dispell which is nearly 100% effective.
    As for the summoned elementals, they're weakened versions of the real elementals... and all it takes is an E-Bolt or two to kill any of these in their 'real elemental' form. They're infinitely weaker than a RC or nearly anything a tamer would bother taming as a fighting pet.
    As for "you can summon a horse should you need one", that's an ethy horse masquerading as a spell, and given that the summoned creature is random, if for some reason you needed an emergency horse, the chances to get a horse are pretty low, so it's likely to not do you much good.
     
  17. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    I don't see the post for Melee love?
    After the Tamer revamp it's the turn of pure warriors.
    Not sampires or those gimp templates, no it's the turn of the pure Warrior. Where's our buffs for not using magic schools ect...
    We've had UO Mage online, now we will have UO Tamer online, next should be Ultima Online Oldschool Edition....where a Swordsman can be effective again without having to load up on "mana"??? (what the hell man, Conan the spellcaster??? get real).
    If I want to swing a bloody big axe I shouldn't need to sacrifice stats just to be able to throw a special move.

    Lets bring UO back to everybody to enjoy by being whatever they want and not just what's the gimp temp of the moment..
     
  18. Gorath

    Gorath Journeyman

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    Mage summons are definitely a concern, same with damage overall in PVM, I feel useless at an event compared to archers or tamers with greater dragons.

    Also a valid point. Running a pure dexxer is hardly anything scary anymore in combat to most people you face off against.

    One thing I think should go is disarms entirely.

    I'd like to see Halberds, Warhammers, and axes get some love.

    Maybe buff up the base damage to Halberds and Warhammers, and automatically apply the lumberjack bonus to axes?
     
  19. 805connection

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    What? i'm curious your thought process on that. You can swing any weapon at cap, solo anything in the game pretty much, can get your mana pool up to 150+ put 8 skills on your template. Remove curse, evade spells, use dp, shield bash for 150 damage, make a slayer for any monster in the game,
     
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  20. railshot

    railshot Sage
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    Most mobs have high physical resist. That's why I think Mysticism is a bit underpowered in direct damage dept. In addition it does not really synergize with other skills to increase damage the way magery and necro do. And thank you for reminding me about mass sleep I should use that more often.
     
  21. BrianATudor

    BrianATudor Adventurer

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    Buffing mages in any way could be a very dangerous balancing act.
     
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  22. cholupa

    cholupa Adventurer

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    Kind of a weird suggestion.


    What about orc brutes then? Should they be buffed too?
     
  23. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    Again, this is just not true. They have not nerfed Magery and Magery is not weaker than Mysticism. Mysticism has very few damage spells and two of the ones it does have are Chaos damage, meaning they can hit the targets highest resist, making them completely useless. Other than that it has Bombard which is a physical damage version of Energy Bold, and Hailstorm, which is now just a cold damage version of Meteor/Chain.
     
  24. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    It's not meaningless. Auto dispel is 100%. Earth Elementals are a significantly better option in both Dreadhorn and Flesh Renderer's than EV's and BT Captains. They are also healable.

    Comparing them to the real counter parts or RC's or Tameables is irrelevant. The skill required to summon elementals is half that required for a RC or Tameable so there is no reason they should be anywhere near as strong.
     
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  25. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Master

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    Mysticism has crap synergy with Magery. It has two roles, defense, and RC.

    Necro has the best synergy with Magery.
     
  26. 805connection

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    To balance mages they should get spellbooks that can be imbued with mana leech, life leech, slayers, 190 luck...

    that is pretty simple..

    for pvp they should be able to activate their mastery and for 30 seconds cast spells on the run with a 5 min cd.
     
  27. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    I will be the first to say that the 8th Circle elemental summons are pretty much pure garbage, but I think we should take these publishes one at a time here and the focus for Pub 97 should remain on Taming. If they try to ram in one or two magery changes while the main focus is on the taming, it will leave other casting spells unbalanced.

    I think summons spells from ALL casting skills need to be re-evaluated... after the Pet Revamp.
     
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  28. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Like i posted in the Pet Revamp thread, i agree. They need to give back BS and EV the abilities they had pre-AoS. Blade Spirits need to go down to 1 Control Slot, and be capable of inflicting Greater Poison again. Hell, i would add Parry to them as well for a little tankiness, since you'd think that many whirling blades would be bound to intercept strikes. Give EVs back their ability to Curse, Mana Drain and DP on hit. Give summoned Daemons the ability to use Necromancy. Give each of the summoned Elementals an Eater property like Anon has when he goes into Elemental Form, making that element heal them instead.
     
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  29. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Lore Keeper
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    I wouldn't mind if my necro familiar decided to "fight along side me" as advertised instead of just being a low hp meat shield.
     
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  30. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Yeah. I always thought that all Familiars should also give better passive buffs to their master. Like having a Vampire Bat out, would give you 10-15% Hit Life Drain, which applies even to spells (there used to be a bug just after AoS came out, where you were able to apply Curse Weapon's Life Drain to spell damage, it was awesome). Having a Horde Minion out, should increase your Carry Weight by 30. Shadow Wisps already have a decent passive ability with their Negative Energy Flare (restores Mana to nearby negative Karma players/pets). Having the Dark Wolf out, would add 15-20% Stamina Leech to you. Death Adders would give you up to Greater Poison Immunity. This is all on top of the abilities that Familiars already possess. Summon Familiar - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

    BS/EVs being uncontrollable, is a relic from when BS/EVs would target anything nearby. Reds, Greys, Blues, Greens, even their own summoner. BS preferred targeting things with higher Tactics, while EV preferred targeting things with higher INT/Eval. Mysticism's "Animated Weapon" and "Rising Colossus" shares this same targeting preference. If you summoned an EV against a Warrior, there was a good chance the EV would target and attack his own summoner rather than the Warrior. "Bladejumper" was a specific term we used for people who would deliberately get your BS/EV to target them, so that they could either attack you because you'd turn grey from it, or they'd let the summon kill them, so they could give you a count. They'd also do it with Field spells (Fire Field, Poison Field, Energy Field), which would flag you.

    To expand on your "Summons take mana upkeep to remain summoned" idea, make it to where if you run out of Mana and fail the Mana upkeep cost for BS or EV, instead of just disappearing, the BS/EV would attack their summoner instead.
     
    #30 PlayerSkillFTW, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017